Nullifier's Bubble Isn't Affected By Damage, And Here's Proof

[Niryco]

To anyone who says the marelok is killing faster, its because the marelok is modded to shoot 2 to 3 bullets per shot, so one mag = 20 to 30 bullets per shot. The braton on the other hand is unmodded and hitting a single bullet per shot.

 

The marelok took 10 shots exactly to take out the nullifiers shield, that means it took 20 to 30 bullets.

 

The braton that started out at 45 bullets took 30 to 35 bullets to take out the shield.

 

So it takes roughly the same number of bullets to take out the shield. In addition the marelok's syndicate AOE might have also damaged the shield because it was activated as well.

 

The hek took 8 shots, i am not sure how many pellets was that but if i knew then we could figure.

[VDeorsum]

honestly i took time deciding wether or not to post in here as it seems to have attracted the worst types of an allready hurtling down hill community.

 

the nullifiers are bad period not because of what they are but because of their implementation.  there are many different ways to play this game...run and gun, melee, caster, and hybrids of each.  now the nullifyers effectivly removed caster from the viable playstyle list and made melee go from high risk high reward to down right towering risk with little reward.

 

alot of people have mentioned things in here that are very true like how any loadout after modding should be viable for any high tier mission bar some of the less desireble low tier wepons, not because of their fireing mechanics but because of their new game levels of damage per bullet (i dont give a crap about all this min-maxing DPS bull). 

 

one of the main issued at hand here is not really the shrinkage or the buble based on damage or speed its the fact that it even blocks bullets to begin with.  somone rightly mentioned this earlyer in the thread which i can guess alot of people either skimmed over and ignored or just flat out didnt read.  they are nullifiers to slow down the caster type players from clearing rooms.  having them deal high damage is fine ONLY if their shields dont stop bullets, even tho technically it isnt even a shield as its just a no-power zone.

 

this is the main problem with nullifiers, they are a speed bump for a certain playstyle (honestly i didnt care about people playing the press 4 to win way either as its their choice if they want to, some of you forget its an online game with players all over the world and if people play in a way you dont like then you dont have to play with them), and being the speed bump that they are theyshould only really affect that type of playstyle, sort of like how some anti melee units in the grineer faction can still get gunned down like theyre nothing but can block all the swings you throw at them....that was good design...

 

anywho my idea to an ideal fix to this would be to have the nullifires zone not stop bullets at all, just powers, that way there would be no need for them to have their own hp or even shrink.  this would keep them as a super high danger type of enemy for casters like theyre suppose to be but at the same time not a problem for the gunners, who actually like to pick wepons for reasons other than DPS or fire rate.  and if that angers the more a*al players who are never happy untill they chase away all players other than themselves then you could always make it so the zone again doesnt shrink but reduced the damage of a bullet by a certain percentage...or flat out removes all elemental damage.

 

in fact thats an idea for an anti gunner type unit...make them immune to elemental damages of all kind (not base damages) and make then succeptable to powers and melee.  then youll have your balence.

 

I love you, +1

[Renegade343]

To anyone who says the marelok is killing faster, its because the marelok is modded to shoot 2 to 3 bullets per shot, so one mag = 20 to 30 bullets per shot. The braton on the other hand is unmodded and hitting a single bullet per shot.

 

The marelok took 10 shots exactly to take out the nullifiers shield, that means it took 20 to 30 bullets.

 

The braton that started out at 45 bullets took 30 to 35 bullets to take out the shield.

 

So it takes roughly the same number of bullets to take out the shield. In addition the marelok's syndicate AOE might have also damaged the shield because it was activated as well.

 

The hek took 8 shots, i am not sure how many pellets was that but if i knew then we could figure.

But to be honest though, bringing an unmodded Braton to a T3/T4 area is not really that wise. 

 

I mean, they either are of high level (T3), or have very high damage, which needs players to either react fast or kill them quickly (T4). There is that to consider as well when analysing the Nullifier Crewmen (at least in the Void). 

[egregiousRac]

But to be honest though, bringing an unmodded Braton to a T3/T4 area is not really that wise. 

 

I mean, they either are of high level (T3), or have very high damage, which needs players to either react fast or kill them quickly (T4). There is that to consider as well when analysing the Nullifier Crewmen (at least in the Void). 

 

The Braton was just to make a point. An unmodded continuous weapon is an even better point. A fully built Dread/Opticore/Vectis/Ogris should take a Nullifier down faster than an unmodded Flux Rifle or Nukor. The fact that it doesn't is absurd.

[geninrising]

But to be honest though, bringing an unmodded Braton to a T3/T4 area is not really that wise. 

 

I mean, they either are of high level (T3), or have very high damage, which needs players to either react fast or kill them quickly (T4). There is that to consider as well when analysing the Nullifier Crewmen (at least in the Void). 

The point OP is trying to get across is that there is no way in hell that an unmodded level 0 braton should be able to take it down as fast as a high powered heavily modded weapon no matter what your idea was you simply did not pay attention to the information. SMH

Please READ before you speak. Like ever again.

 

Clearly there is a problem here as OP states although the changes of damage hurts the bubble more would be appreciated there is still the fact that critical hits do not apply to the bubbles. For this to be equalized for all gameplay styles they must implement the ability for critical hits to apply to the bubbles and remove any sort of damage cap per shot that may exist on the bubbles themselves so that once again player choice is validated.

 

Currently bullet hoses(high ROF weapons for anyone that does not know) are the only effective way to counter said bubbles. This is a changed needed with a quickness to ensure that we players have a choice in what loadouts we run and are not required to carry any weapon with a given trait.

 

Another fix that could work is to give the bubbles weak points that allow high damage weapons to destroy the bubbles much faster(again they must be able to be impacted by critical hits as most high damage low ROF weapons utilize critical)

Edited January 4, 2015 by geninrising

[Althran]

The point OP is trying to get across is that there is no way in hell that an unmodded level 0 braton should be able to take it down as fast as a high powered heavily modded weapon no matter what your idea was you simply did not pay attention to the information. SMH

Please READ before you speak. Like ever again.

 

Clearly there is a problem here as OP states although the changes of damage hurts the bubble more would be appreciated there is still the fact that critical hits do not apply to the bubbles. For this to be equalized for all gameplay styles they must implement the ability for critical hits to apply to the bubbles and remove any sort of damage cap per shot that may exist on the bubbles themselves so that once again player choice is validated.

 

Currently bullet hoses(high ROF weapons for anyone that does not know) are the only effective way to counter said bubbles. This is a changed needed with a quickness to ensure that we players have a choice in what loadouts we run and are not required to carry any weapon with a given trait.

 

Another fix that could work is to give the bubbles weak points that allow high damage weapons to destroy the bubbles much faster(again they must be able to be impacted by critical hits as most high damage low ROF weapons utilize critical)

Thank god some people around here have their head on straight.

[Icebreccer]

Currently bullet hoses(high ROF weapons for anyone that does not know) are the only effective way to counter said bubbles. This is a changed needed with a quickness to ensure that we players have a choice in what loadouts we run and are not required to carry any weapon with a given trait.

 

Or use Bolto :D

[Azawarau]

So basically it's fine to add to the minor disadvantages which already exist because well they're good weapons, but it's not okay to give a minor disadvantage to low rof (just to make it clear it's not okay right now, and as I put in my above post is completely broken, but it can be fixed).  Sup hypocrisy.

 

 

Oh so it's all DPS now? That's your complaint? High rof weapons have high DPS so it's okay for them to have higher time to kill?  It would make high rof weapons have a longer time to kill which is this exact problem you have with the nullifier shields versus low rof.  I cannot grasp how people can be so narrow minded and not see the hypocrisy.  Since you're clearly not reading the entirety of other people's posts unless they agree with you and you refuse to open your eyes I don't see the point of continuing with this thread at all.  There is no way to get through to someone like you when you cannot even see the truth put in front of you.

Thats not hypocrisy

 

What ive been saying is make it based on weapon damage alone because thats no less fair than the case with any enemy youd shoot at

 

do you even know what hypocrisy means?

 

This post is offensively bad

[geninrising]

Or use Bolto :D

Bolto, akbolto, Telos Akbolto, and Synoid gamacore are all just bullet hose light edition. Which is the crux of the issue. One should not be able to veritably rape these enemies with high rof and inversely it be a virtual suicide attempt to attack them with a massive dps low rof weapon. 

 

The very concept goes completely against DE's design imperative of giving players choices of how they play the game.

 

Also as an aside, what you are seeing there is the random explosion from the syndicate mod killing them through the shield. You will notice that the shield does not contract fully before they die.

Edited January 5, 2015 by geninrising

[Vitalis_Inamorta]

You can carry more then one weapon. Deal with it.

 

I use the weapons I like, and have dumped forma and taters into, not the FoTM, thank you.  Fix it.

[Vitalis_Inamorta]

DE should not balance to cater towards un-optomized builds. You have your freedom to loadout with whatever you want on intermediate missions, but end-game content needs to be restricted to high-tier builds.

 

It only makes sense to force squads to adapt their builds for end game enemies, it'd be silly to allow any random loadout to succeed in T4.

Rapid fire weapons are, in all cases, crap-tier builds.  The only exceptions would be the Somas, Synapse, Amprex, all of which you have to SPAM ammo restores with later on to keep fed.  To be honest, the damage levels, DPS, and burst coming out of the better bows (Dread, Paris Prime) and snipers (Lanka and Vectis... and now maybe Vulkar), as well as the DMRs (Latron Prime/Wraith) are absolutely end-game worthy, with a single, glaring exception that uses an illogical and unique mechanic, seemingly designed ONLY to make slow heavy hitting weapons non-viable.  There's literally no other reason for it to work the way it does, at all.

 

In fact with the exception of nullifiers, bows like the paris prime, snipers like the lanka, and dmrs like the latron wraith are VASTLY more endgame-worthy weapons than ANY AND ALL of the rapid fires, for the simple reason that they fit well with aiming for headshots, and massive groups of enemies at perfect angles, as well as not hosing your ammo supply.

[Vitalis_Inamorta]

Burst weapon take down shields even faster than full-auto for some reason. I don't get it.

 

Depends on how fast the burst is.  Sybaris' is so fast for instance, it counts as one bullet to the shield.  Good luck facing these guys with a Sybaris, these are also the only shields that ignore crit damage entirely ><.

[Vitalis_Inamorta]

You are comparing it to the Brakk.. High pellet count, high damage per pellet.. A weapon that is unrivaled in Burst DPS(almost 3 times that of the boltor prime depending on the build).. I would be surprised if the Brakk wasn't the best weapon against them.

 

Excuse me, Boltor prime is pathetic burst.  Boar Prime has had about 5x the burst Boltor Prime has since forever, and that was BEFORE Primed Point Blank and w/e the shotgun crit damage mod is came on the scene.  Now it's probably 6-8 times higher.

[Vitalis_Inamorta]

The nullifier's shield is damaged by both fire rate AND damage per shot. I am sure that if you shot the shield with an unranked lato vs that vaykor marelock, you would notice a drastic difference. You managed to pop that bubble, that right there proves that it is indeed effected by damage. If you had that slow of fire rate back before the update, you would not have been able to break down his shield before it regenerated to full. That seems just fine to me.

 

No, no you really wouldn't.  The max the bubble can take is about 24 shots, regardless of how weak they are, thus the bubble would pop after the reload, same as with the VM.

[Vitalis_Inamorta]

A fully built secondary should have both Barrel Diffusion and Lethal Torrent on, which would make 10 ammo fire 20-28 projectiles, while an unranked Braton would fire one per ammo. That significantly closes the gap. Damage does affect it, but it is only a small amount.

 

Aaaand here we go.  Because of the shrink time mechanic, the bubble effectively ignores shots that come in close enough to each other.  Just ask a Sybaris user.

 

Either that or that whole "6-24" shots thing is taking multishot into account, in which case it's closer to 12-48, or 18-72, and ABSOLUTELY favors RoF weapons.  Since the unmodded braton only took about 39 shots, the latter is evidently not the case.

Edited January 6, 2015 by Vitalis_Inamorta

[Vitalis_Inamorta]

You are stating a opinion. I understand your opinion. I disagree with the opinion.

 

Now, do you have a valid reason for disagreeing, other than to disagree, and because you don't want to concede the point?  No, no you don't.

 

You are stating an opinion.  I don't understand your opinion, because it is not, in fact, you opinion.  It's your stubbornness, and there's nothing rational or understandable about it.

[Vitalis_Inamorta]

Damage does matter, it doesn't matter as much as RoF though.

 

As for 'why', because it's a different mechanic for an enemy. There are several enemies, normally bosses, that high resist high RoF, low damager per shot weapons, while they are high vulnerable to low RoF, high damage per shot weapons. This is a similar concept but inverted so.. Why not?

 

No, no there aren't any enemies like that.  At all.  Not even a single one.  Unless you count ammo consumption as an actual manifest enemy.  Cut the BS please.

Edited January 6, 2015 by Vitalis_Inamorta

[Vitalis_Inamorta]

It still doesn't change the fact that he is now Pro Low RoF now, like Ruk. What's wrong with having that mechanic inverted?

 

My only real issue with Nullifiers is that they use high damage weapons, and not a low damage pistol.

 

Ruk isn't pro low RoF.  He's pro TOTAL DAMAGE.  If you mean he has invulnerable stages, that's just as bad for low RoF weapons.  Non sequiter.

[Althran]

To anyone who says the marelok is killing faster, its because the marelok is modded to shoot 2 to 3 bullets per shot, so one mag = 20 to 30 bullets per shot. The braton on the other hand is unmodded and hitting a single bullet per shot.

 

The marelok took 10 shots exactly to take out the nullifiers shield, that means it took 20 to 30 bullets.

 

The braton that started out at 45 bullets took 30 to 35 bullets to take out the shield.

 

So it takes roughly the same number of bullets to take out the shield. In addition the marelok's syndicate AOE might have also damaged the shield because it was activated as well.

 

The hek took 8 shots, i am not sure how many pellets was that but if i knew then we could figure.

The hek actually took 9 shots, as I mentioned in the OP.  Each shot, with the addition of the multishot mod, comes around to being 30 pellets per shot.  270 pellets went into that bubble.  It clearly is not affected by pellet count, or damage.  High RoF takes presidence, which just should not be a thing, considering how many F-U's the game likes to throw at you when you're using a single RoF weapon already.

[Vitalis_Inamorta]

Hmm.. I'll start a topic soon about Balancing Nullifiers then, giving them a DR to their shields to negate damage of a shot that deals less than 'X' damage, while increasing the effectiveness of higher damage shots. (Soma/Boltro Prime will still be better from significantly higher DPS than snipers). I'll also make a topic of static weakpoints rather than dynamic to allow full autoweapons with wind up times maximize against a target like a Sniper weapon can.

 

There are at least two snipers with an equal or higher DPS than boltor prime.  The burst difference isn't even comparable.

[Althran]

There are at least two snipers with an equal or higher DPS than boltor prime.  The burst difference isn't even comparable.

 

I concur.

[sythmstr]

I don't see why they don't just make it a moving frost bubble that has a set HP and when you shoot it enough it just gets deleted... why does it have to shrink D:

[Althran]

I don't see why they don't just make it a moving frost bubble that has a set HP and when you shoot it enough it just gets deleted... why does it have to shrink D:

 

no fun allowed you have to use boltorprhinospam 

[geninrising]

Whats's DE's design imperative folks, the thing they always talk about? "We want players to have choices in how they play the game"

We need a change. 

 

I still can't figure out why there are people here arguing against a proposed change to nullifier shields. Is it that perhaps they enjoy feeling superior in their choice of weapon?

 

Is this another E-PEEN topic? Is this another argue against them because I will feel less powerful if the game is equalized at this point?

Why is this so like another post about P42W and how people argue that it is their right to be able to prevent another person from being able to even play by simply being present and pressing the almighty 4(admittedly the people here are arguing that people should not be able to use weapons they want but the analogy still fits)?

[Althran]

Whats's DE's design imperative folks, the thing they always talk about? "We want players to have choices in how they play the game"

We need a change. 

 

I still can't figure out why there are people here arguing against a proposed change to nullifier shields. Is it that perhaps they enjoy feeling superior in their choice of weapon?

 

Is this another E-PEEN topic? Is this another argue against them because I will feel less powerful if the game is equalized at this point?

Why is this so like another post about P42W and how people argue that it is their right to be able to prevent another person from being able to even play by simply being present and pressing the almighty 4(admittedly the people here are arguing that people should not be able to use weapons they want but the analogy still fits)?

 

couldn't agree more.