Make More Mods Mutually Exclusive.

[oinkah]

While an interesting suggestion, it won't fix the problem. All it would do is lower the gap between unmoded and maxed weapons (which might not be a bad thing) and shift the upper limits of the endless missions (so, let's say, 20 minutes of survival becomes a new standard).

It won't take long before people min-max the mod ratios for most damage and once again we end up with mandatory mods.

And while elemental mods are mostly used for extra damage, limiting them would hurt those rare cases where they are being used for status builds. So even less variety.

It won't fix weapon balance either, Boltor prime would find it's way into overpoweredness eventually.

The core of the problem is that stacking damage has no drawbacks.

Fire rate mods were made much more elegantly, as they increase ammo consumption, while not having direct negative stats themselves.

Damage mods don't have such sneaky drawbacks, so they are simply superior.

Multishot mods are a bit more interesting, because aside of flat damage increase they also boost crit and status percentages. But again - no drawbacks. Perhaps if they consumed extra ammo they would be more balanced.

Edited January 1, 2015 by oinkah

[TheWebbliestPrime]

This just seems really pointless to do. What would probably be a smarter idea is make it so that more enemies in each faction are weak to a lot of varying damages rather than each faction being able to be roflstomped by 1 or 2 prevailing damage types. Taking away things like base damage from weapons modding is just silly and pointless unless you want everyone to play on Mercury-Saturn all the time.

[DSpite]

I'm not sure if I fully understand the OP's point, but I'm thinking of it from how EvE modules tend to work.

 

You can't simply call up EFT (the equivalent of Warframe Builder for EvE Online) jam all damage on a ship and magically get a killing machine, it will be less then a glass cannon, it will simply not function. It would not be able to dictate range, hold targets on the field, or maneuver worth a damn. If it was a Battleship for example, a well fitted tiny Frigate could just slowly tear it a new one, while keeping itself out of harms way from the Battleship weapons.

 

Guns that in WF went with all damage mods would have reload times of 10 seconds, 20 shot magazines, and enough recoil to feel like an earthquake is going on. Ok, not that bad, but you get the idea. No utility mods would equal a very very hard to use weapon.

 

I understand the OP sentiment, but the weapons only have 8 omni slots, and I don't think that gives enough leeway to make the weapons overly intricate to get the level of customization required.

 

Unless you basically redesigned the mod system drastically, I don't see this particular idea ever working. Pretty sure DE would not just eviscerate our current mechanics THAT badly.

[-SLX-J3tAc3]

I'm not sure if I fully understand the OP's point, but I'm thinking of it from how EvE modules tend to work.

 

You can't simply call up EFT (the equivalent of Warframe Builder for EvE Online) jam all damage on a ship and magically get a killing machine, it will be less then a glass cannon, it will simply not function. It would not be able to dictate range, hold targets on the field, or maneuver worth a damn. If it was a Battleship for example, a well fitted tiny Frigate could just slowly tear it a new one, while keeping itself out of harms way from the Battleship weapons.

 

Guns that in WF went with all damage mods would have reload times of 10 seconds, 20 shot magazines, and enough recoil to feel like an earthquake is going on. Ok, not that bad, but you get the idea. No utility mods would equal a very very hard to use weapon.

...

Very interesting...

[Azawarau]

Why? Who would ever choose heavy caliber over serration? Seriously what is the point of this?

Mods don't need nerfs, some weapons might but mods as a whole are fine. Why should we deal less damage? To reduce the gap between me with 1000 hours of play and someone who just started? No.

This also doesn't really help utility mods, since most of those are for warframes. Things like ammo mutations, increased mag, and reload are all used when the gun needs them. This doesn't make intruder anymore useful.

No.

He said the corrupted mods would be buffed

 

Not sure if you actually read the thread now

 

The corrupted mods that sacrifice accuracy/speed should give a larger damage buff than the common versions (though Heavy call and magnum force should reduce accuracy a little more. Spoiled strike is good where it is) Blaze shouldn't be fire damage but rather status chance.  

 

 

I can see where OP is coming from

 

Is all about false choice mods but not enough people understand this to get on board

[Tyrian3k]

I'm not sure if I fully understand the OP's point, but I'm thinking of it from how EvE modules tend to work.

 

You can't simply call up EFT (the equivalent of Warframe Builder for EvE Online) jam all damage on a ship and magically get a killing machine, it will be less then a glass cannon, it will simply not function. It would not be able to dictate range, hold targets on the field, or maneuver worth a damn. If it was a Battleship for example, a well fitted tiny Frigate could just slowly tear it a new one, while keeping itself out of harms way from the Battleship weapons.

 

Guns that in WF went with all damage mods would have reload times of 10 seconds, 20 shot magazines, and enough recoil to feel like an earthquake is going on. Ok, not that bad, but you get the idea. No utility mods would equal a very very hard to use weapon.

 

I understand the OP sentiment, but the weapons only have 8 omni slots, and I don't think that gives enough leeway to make the weapons overly intricate to get the level of customization required.

 

Unless you basically redesigned the mod system drastically, I don't see this particular idea ever working. Pretty sure DE would not just eviscerate our current mechanics THAT badly.

 

We have slots for offense and defense, but they are separated into Warframes (defense)  and weapons (offense), which means that we can go full on damage without turning into a glass cannon.

 

DE should never have introduced so many different damage mods in the first place. We have 8 elemental damage mods already in addition to base damage, multishot and additional stuff like heavy caliber.

 

When I first got one of the +elemental damage +status mods, I was like "Yay! More damage!", but now it's more like "Yay! Even less slots to use for my personal preference!".

Bottom line is that we have too many mods doing the same dam thing in Warframe, mostly damage.

 

My suggestion:

1. Remove things that only bloat damage numbers or alternatively build them into guns so that their damage scales with weapon level

 

2. Remove/change all elemental damage mods apart from the basic ones, alternatively change them into status mods dedicated to one element so that every status proc causes an additional proc of that mod's element.

 

3. Buff utility things like status chance, reload and clip size to useful levels.

[Innocent_Flower]

All this would do is kill build variety and leave the same problems in the wake.

Build variety is already dead. With this, you'd use the max amount of damage mods, and then 3-4 slots left for own personal choices. 

 

That said, I'm not sure your "solution" fixes that. It puts the cart before the horse.

 

The reason nobody bothers with utility mods is because for most weapons, increasing damage does their job better. Best way to reduce the time spent reloading? Increase damage. Best way to improve ammunition economy? Ditto.

 

Remove supplement mods like Heavy Cal, etc. or extraneous elements? People'll just shift to the event I/P/S mods if they have 'em (guys who missed out'll apparently get to suck an egg under your system). Hell, in the case of crit-builds, I'm not even sure it'd change anything, since even at their absolute most bare bones they effectively require half the weapon's slots.

 

The utility mods need a rework first before they can even pretend to be attractive, viable alternatives. As-is, there's simply no positive encouragement to use 'em... which is why people generally don't. Basically trying to force people to use 'em by removing other options defeats the whole purpose of increasing build diversity to begin with, it's a non-starter.

1- Thank you for supporting false choice? What? Is that like.... You're on the other side but you're arguing agsinst them? 

2- Never said removing mods like heavy call or extraneous elements. 

3- Such would require nerfs to the damage mods, not just buffs to the base mods. The community seem to be against that sort of thing. Try seeing the bigger picture

But then we end up with godlike enemies that we can't kill. The mods are powerful to enable us last longer in Survival and other Endless game modes.

 

Also nerfing the mods will not give more variation. It'll only force damage mods being used as now we would be in desperate need of them.

 

 

What needs to be done is throw in mods that change the gameplay around in a way that it might favor certain game modes or certain enemies. So we need more mods that are different but very useful.

-Enemies would be rebalanced appropriately. Why bring that up?  

-what? Were you reading something else and then accidently posted here? 

- Even still we'd probably just be throwing a S#&$ ton of damage. 

 

 

The solution is more mod slots, not restricting the ones we already have.

More slots for more damage mods? Great. Build diversity only increases. /sarcasm

 

While an interesting suggestion, it won't fix the problem. All it would do is lower the gap between unmoded and maxed weapons (which might not be a bad thing) and shift the upper limits of the endless missions (so, let's say, 20 minutes of survival becomes a new standard).

It won't take long before people min-max the mod ratios for most damage and once again we end up with mandatory mods.

And while elemental mods are mostly used for extra damage, limiting them would hurt those rare cases where they are being used for status builds. So even less variety.

It won't fix weapon balance either, Boltor prime would find it's way into overpoweredness eventually.

The core of the problem is that stacking damage has no drawbacks.

Fire rate mods were made much more elegantly, as they increase ammo consumption, while not having direct negative stats themselves.

Damage mods don't have such sneaky drawbacks, so they are simply superior.

Multishot mods are a bit more interesting, because aside of flat damage increase they also boost crit and status percentages. But again - no drawbacks. Perhaps if they consumed extra ammo they would be more balanced.

Wouldn't touch the upper limits of endless limits at all. Enemies would be rebalanced. 

 

Min maxing? Ah, You say that. But think of minmaxed builds when we only have access to a few of the usual offending mods at a time. Yeah there might still be min maxed builds... But they'd be more diverse and different for each weapon. 

 

The rest of your argument? About the damage mods having no drawbacks? Sound. 

[Troll_Logic]

No

[Someguy316]

This is one fix for the ridiculous stacking of stats, an issue in a lot of MMOs. It's like in D&D based games, stacking the same stats doesn't work, only the highest stat works and it could be like that; Serration being lower than Heavy Caliber but HC having a penalty for being way stronger. Would really work out well for those other mods that aren't worth wasting slots on unless we get accessory mod slots.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

The solution is more mod slots, not restricting the ones we already have.

Yes, but those new slots should be similar to auras in that they only accept certain kinds of mods. Utility mods.

 

Fact is, utility mods like fast hands/mag warp/etc are nice to have, but they're always going to lose out to something that more directly increases DPS or has tremendous utility all the time. Forcing them to compete with better mods gives us a warm coat type situation.

 

So we need to make it so that these mods have their own special slot, letting them compete with other mods in their weight class instead of trying to get them to compete with something massively more useful.

 

I mean, I know the OP's derping about nerfing damage mods to make them less useful or forcing people to choose between damage mods as if the problem was that you can put on both heavy cal and serration, but that's just derping because more damage is ultimately the bread and butter of weapon modding in nearly every game that allows for it. Whether it's a 5% damage boost or a 500% damage boost doesn't matter, players will always min-max their way into the highest theoretical DPS as a goal. You're never going to have situationally useful mods beating out over always useful ones like damage outside of lulzy gimmick builds. 

[ThePresident777]

DE took people's suggestions to nerf serration, multi-shot, etc. and applied it to AW.  The result, no difference at all.  Even if weapons had only one mod slot, people will find which is the best and use that one mod.  And, other people will still be complaining about everyone and required content and lack of choice and choices not mattering.  It's quite magical.

 

Here is the reason why the suggestions in the Original Post will not change anything:

 

1)  DPS = [1 + (Crit Mutli - 1) * Crit Chance] * Damage Per Round / (Charge Time + (Reload Time / Magazine) + 1/(Rate of Fire))

2)  Warframe is Free To Play Not Pay To Win, therefore, enemies scale so that no matter how much DPS you have, or do not have, you can always win, for free, by just picking the enemy level that you can beat.  That's why the level X mook is qualitatively the same as the level X+Y mook despite their quantitative difference.

 

Suggestions for resolving this issue:

1) DE should communicate a detailed objective message about the game to players so that players realize that some of their suggestions do not change anything at all.

 

2)  DE should code analytics into the game to both inform the player and reinforce the science part of the sci-fantasy that is Warframe thereby increasing it's immersion.

 

3)  Things I Learned In Warframe Builder Today: Whacky Mods

[tl;dr: Certain mods (like Speed trigger, which effect the feel and DPS of rifles) give more DPS than certain DPS mods which in turn give more DPS than other DPS and feel effecting mods (such as fast hands).  I think that is bad.]

Edited January 1, 2015 by ThePresident777

[Tyrian3k]

DE took people's suggestions to nerf serration, multi-shot, etc. and applied it to AW.  The result, no difference at all.  Even if weapons had only one mod slot, people will find which is the best and use that one mod.  And, other people will still be complaining about everyone and must use content and lack of choice and choices not mattering.  It's quite magical.

 

Suggestions for resolving this:

1) DE should communicate a detailed objective message about the game to players so that players realize that some of their suggestions do not change anything at all.

 

2)  DE should code analytics into the game to both inform the player and reinforce the science portion of Warframe thereby increasing it's immersion.

 

That's why I suggest removing it entirely. Trying it on AW was already pointless since even the 30% faction damage mods are powerful enough to make players use them.

 

Right now every weapon usually has one best build for just about everything. If they want build diversity, they have to consider allowing all weapons to be built on crit, regular damage or status instead of dedicating specific weapons to specific builds.

[ThePresident777]

I do not think build diversity can be achieved in a theoretical bubble.  Choices are individually and subjectively meaningful, not universally or absolutely meaningful.  That is why a one size fits all approach does not work.  What works is the smorgasborg approach.  Let everyone build up their own plate as they see fit, conveniently.

 

This is why I propose:

1)  Weapon Tier Potatoes

2)  Taking the Crappy out of Mods

3)  Sniping That Matters

4)  Shotguns That matter.

5)  Give Single Handed Weapons A fun Game Play Purpose

6)  World State Window Filter

7)  Advanced Tenno Tech for a Game about Advanced Tech

8) Revitalize our shopping malls before they go extinct.

9) Loadout Selection From Navigation, like we have in the malls.

10) Infest Infested Extermination

11) More Loadout Slots

12) End Death by sheathing Animation and other assorted clunk

13)  Make the Mastery Rank Test avaiable for practice.  Some fo those tests are fun in their own right.   Yey, we can't play them more than once unless we fail them contstantly and stop mastery rank up.

13)  Make nightmare mode challenges avaiable on a non-rng basis because fun game play shouldn't be locked behind a Maybe Wall.

14)  Change Warframe's design philosophy from box of toys to Box of Game Play Styles.  And stop the nerfs.  Let's have a variety of fun and well designed game play instead.

 

P.S.  I have editted my previous post to be more clear, I hope.

Edited January 1, 2015 by ThePresident777

[-SLX-J3tAc3]

DE took people's suggestions to nerf serration, multi-shot, etc. and applied it to AW.  The result, no difference at all.  Even if weapons had only one mod slot, people will find which is the best and use that one mod.  And, other people will still be complaining about everyone and required content and lack of choice and choices not mattering.  It's quite magical.

 

Here is the reason why the suggestions in the Original Post will not change anything:

 

1)  DPS = [1 + (Crit Mutli - 1) * Crit Chance] * Damage Per Round / (Charge Time + (Reload Time / Magazine) + 1/(Rate of Fire))

2)  Warframe is Free To Play Not Pay To Win, therefore, enemies scale so that no matter how much DPS you have, or do not have, you can always win, for free, by just picking the enemy level that you can beat.  That's why the level X mook is qualitatively the same as the level X+Y mook despite their quantitative difference.

 

Suggestions for resolving this issue:

1) DE should communicate a detailed objective message about the game to players so that players realize that some of their suggestions do not change anything at all.

 

2)  DE should code analytics into the game to both inform the player and reinforce the science part of the sci-fantasy that is Warframe thereby increasing it's immersion.

 

3)  Things I Learned In Warframe Builder Today: Whacky Mods

[tl;dr: Certain mods (like Speed trigger, which effect the feel and DPS of rifles) give more DPS than certain DPS mods which in turn give more DPS than other DPS and feel effecting mods (such as fast hands).  I think that is bad.]

You mean take these peoples' toys away, and they rage at Daddy Scott until he givz it bakk?

Half-jokes aside, I agree with this post.