Ember Rework (Update 15.11)

[Azawarau]

Im not downplaying anybodys strengths, just go to any high level play and see how many people are rocking ember.

 

Id take Banshee over her any day, and thats where the problem is, frames should all have there uses and team up well.

 

Ember has a short stun, and it is really short, not enough to revive a downed team mate. A target hit by accelerant cant be re-stunned until accelerants effects end, so go up to a pack of heavy gunners and enjoy stunning them once and then getting gunned down.

 

Making her a toggle will only fix her #4 that is under par to most, if not all, ultimates in the game. It won't fix the frame. WoF delivers only damage, that again, on high level play wears off easily. It has barely any form of CC and hits single targets.

 

Her #1 is the only decent ability, and the proposed change I asked for is for her augment, to enhance even more team play.

The accelerant thing may be a bug and if it isnt it opens up for fire blast to be buffed into a stun in its place

 

I actually built around the bug and have been runing into bombards and groups of bombards enjoying my stunlock ignis TYVM

 

If youre going off a yet to be confirmed bug then your argument is shaky

 

Have you seen embers damage output with WoF? After accelerant? Have you seen what Miasma can do on high waves? Imagine something like that but on fire. Heavies slow it down a bit but thats what accelerant is for

 

Seriously stop and think about what making it into a toggle means

 

From testing in archwing using iztal with vacuum you cannot recover energy with orbs

Banshee 3stuns have the same, if not longer range than all ember's abilities, stretch is already enough for most tileset

Ill run a test on energy and toggles later. Im sure with itzal i was still able to use my 3 to gain energy

 

One is a KD with no damage buff and one  (very wide) direction

 

One is radial with a one time stun

 

One is a wide area stun damage but she cant move with it

 

She cant just stun everything as well as ember does, her stuns play differently and she certainly wont get embers damage output without maxing damage which hurts her stun power more than embers

[Hybridon]

Making it a toggle only means you cast it once and drain energy constantly.

 

You compared WoF to Miasma? Seriosuly?

 

Miasma has if not the best, one of the best elements in the game, corrosive, that has barely any restriction, and is lethal against 3 of the 4 factions. Along with that she delivers her damage almost instantly, along with a stun. Not only that, Saryn has the stats to come up close and use Miasma, while Ember cant sustain the same damage, and to do so relies on using much more energy and depends on dealing damage overtime, not instantly like Saryn.

 

I still dont understand all your fuss over my proposed changes, as it keeps what you likes the most, adds in the toggle, and proposes minor changes with exception of fireblast, that is horrendous.

[Azawarau]

Making it a toggle only means you cast it once and drain energy constantly.

 

You compared WoF to Miasma? Seriosuly?

 

Miasma has if not the best, one of the best elements in the game, corrosive, that has barely any restriction, and is lethal against 3 of the 4 factions. Along with that she delivers her damage almost instantly, along with a stun. Not only that, Saryn has the stats to come up close and use Miasma, while Ember cant sustain the same damage, and to do so relies on using much more energy and depends on dealing damage overtime, not instantly like Saryn.

 

I still dont understand all your fuss over my proposed changes, as it keeps what you likes the most, adds in the toggle, and proposes minor changes with exception of fireblast, that is horrendous.

Fire gains where corrosive gains and loses where corrosive loses so whats your argument there?

 

Ember will have accelerants damage boost and stun on top of that

[akira_him]

The accelerant thing may be a bug and if it isnt it opens up for fire blast to be buffed into a stun in its place

 

I actually built around the bug and have been runing into bombards and groups of bombards enjoying my stunlock ignis TYVM

 

If youre going off a yet to be confirmed bug then your argument is shaky

 

Have you seen embers damage output with WoF? After accelerant? Have you seen what Miasma can do on high waves? Imagine something like that but on fire. Heavies slow it down a bit but thats what accelerant is for

 

Seriously stop and think about what making it into a toggle means

 

Ill run a test on energy and toggles later. Im sure with itzal i was still able to use my 3 to gain energy

 

One is a KD with no damage buff and one  (very wide) direction

 

One is radial with a one time stun

 

One is a wide area stun damage but she cant move with it

 

She cant just stun everything as well as ember does, her stuns play differently and she certainly wont get embers damage output without maxing damage which hurts her stun power more than embers

I know the flaws of Banshee's CC

I just want to point out that Banshee doesn't need to sacrifice sonar for CC as much as ember does if ember wants more CC for accelerant

[Hybridon]

Fire gains where corrosive gains and loses where corrosive loses so whats your argument there?

 

Ember will have accelerants damage boost and stun on top of that

 

Then people would mod for fire, and not corrosive. Seriously, you just dig yourself deeper with flawed arguments.

[akira_him]

Fire gains where corrosive gains and loses where corrosive loses so whats your argument there?

 

Ember will have accelerants damage boost and stun on top of that

You need 2 skills plus a bit of time to do something that could be done by 1 skill instantly

And you probably die before you can do full damage of WoF because of the low status,

That's the problem of ember that won't be fixed by just making WoF toggle

You need either:

Accelerant re-stun

fireblast rework

Status buff

Ideal case, all of the above(at least first 2)

[Azawarau]

I know the flaws of Banshee's CC

I just want to point out that Banshee doesn't need to sacrifice sonar for CC as much as ember does if ember wants more CC for accelerant

The issue there is WoF

 

It clashes heavily with the power it synergizes most with

 

But if it were made into a toggle then....

 

Then people would mod for fire, and not corrosive. Seriously, you just dig yourself deeper with flawed arguments.

People mod for corrosive because it chews armor VS fires DoT

 

The utility VS grineer and corrupted is high

 

You can actually mod for both and gain the benefits of both

 

Oh and corrosive cant gain the 5x damage on a radial boost for ember like fire does

 

If youre an ember and not modding for fire then the problem is not ember

 

You need 2 skills plus a bit of time to do something that could be done by 1 skill instantly

And you probably die before you can do full damage of WoF because of the low status,

That's the problem of ember that won't be fixed by just making WoF toggle

You need either:

Accelerant re-stun

fireblast rework

Status buff

Ideal case, all of the above(at least first 2)

Youre forgetting that accelerants boost is extremely heavy

 

If WoF becomes a toggle ember becomes a better killer than even saryn but with a higher energy cost and the drawbacks of toggle mode

 

A fair trade

 

Making WoF a toggle alone means

 

1.Max power STR WoF and accelerant for about 35% less energy than the base cost

 

That means youll be hitting 1136 damage with a 710% spammable multiplier for 35% less than the base cosr

 

2. Without the need for narrow minded you wont have to balance with overextended which in turn gives you more power STR

 

That means youll get 23 meters on WoF and almost 30 with accelerant with just stretch

 

3.Sustained DPS constantly from WoF can become a nuke level damage dealer with every accelerant casted

 

That means when you press 2 your damage will increase from 1136 to 8065 <Dont trust my math too much

 

Without many heavy negatives on fire damage you can be assured high damage

 

4.With less stopping and more moving youll find more time to make use of your fire based weapons on top of your AoE damage

 

That means Your 8k WoF ticks come with the added bonus of whatever fire damage you have on your weapon multiplied by accelerants boost

 

And the costs of this are....

 

.... I cant think of any

 

How about the weaknesses she has left......

 

Energy efficiency if you have max blind rage

 

Assuming you dont kill very much

 

I think ill post this on a thread

[akira_him]

The issue there is WoF

 

It clashes heavily with the power it synergizes most with

 

But if it were made into a toggle then....

 

People mod for corrosive because it chews armor VS fires DoT

 

The utility VS grineer and corrupted is high

 

You can actually mod for both and gain the benefits of both

 

Oh and corrosive cant gain the 5x damage on a radial boost for ember like fire does

 

If youre an ember and not modding for fire then the problem is not ember

 

Youre forgetting that accelerants boost is extremely heavy

 

If WoF becomes a toggle ember becomes a better killer than even saryn but with a higher energy cost and the drawbacks of toggle mode

 

A fair trade

 

Making WoF a toggle alone means

 

1.Max power STR WoF and accelerant for about 35% less energy than the base cost

 

That means youll be hitting 1136 damage with a 710% spammable multiplier for 35% less than the base cosr

 

2. Without the need for narrow minded you wont have to balance with overextended which in turn gives you more power STR

 

That means youll get 23 meters on WoF and almost 30 with accelerant with just stretch

 

3.Sustained DPS constantly from WoF can become a nuke level damage dealer with every accelerant casted

 

That means when you press 2 your damage will increase from 1136 to 8065 <Dont trust my math too much

 

Without many heavy negatives on fire damage you can be assured high damage

 

4.With less stopping and more moving youll find more time to make use of your fire based weapons on top of your AoE damage

 

That means Your 8k WoF ticks come with the added bonus of whatever fire damage you have on your weapon multiplied by accelerants boost

 

And the costs of this are....

 

.... I cant think of any

 

How about the weaknesses she has left......

 

Energy efficiency if you have max blind rage

 

Assuming you dont kill very much

 

I think ill post this on a thread

I never forgot the damage boost, but 2 cast is 2 cast (personally reference)

There is target limit of WoF and the latency between explosions, currently accelerant is not able to re-stun enemies

I believe the damage boost of accelerant would help, but not a lot in terms of CC

Accelerant provides 4 seconds of one time stun, meaning that WoF will hit 6 (3 targets a time times 2) targets in this period (which I forgot to mention in last posts)

I always agree with toggle WoF, but please also make acclerant re-stun and I think we both agree the fireblast need a rework if WoF become toggle

[Azawarau]

I never forgot the damage boost, but 2 cast is 2 cast (personally reference)

There is target limit of WoF and the latency between explosions, currently accelerant is not able to re-stun enemies

I believe the damage boost of accelerant would help, but not a lot in terms of CC

Accelerant provides 4 seconds of one time stun, meaning that WoF will hit 6 (3 targets a time times 2) targets in this period (which I forgot to mention in last posts)

I always agree with toggle WoF, but please also make acclerant re-stun and I think we both agree the fireblast need a rework if WoF become toggle

Fixable by modding for short duration but you lose WoF long duration

 

It still acts as a fair burst

[akira_him]

Fixable by modding for short duration but you lose WoF long duration

 

It still acts as a fair burst

You have a point there, so after making WoF toggle and fireblast rework

We will have 2 builds there

Spam accelerant+WoF short duration build, and

reworked fireblast(whatever what it is)+accelerant (hopefully it is) long duration build

Sounds decent

but any status buff would be welcomed

[Azawarau]

You have a point there, so after making WoF toggle and fireblast rework

We will have 2 builds there

Spam accelerant+WoF short duration build, and

reworked fireblast(whatever what it is)+accelerant (hopefully it is) long duration build

Sounds decent

but any status buff would be welcomed

I just hope accelerant is changed back or fire blast becomes affected by range to take its pace as the main stun

[SageBanshee]

Let us compare Ember and Ash for a second. The balance between these two is way off in every way.  Let us compare their damage output for a second...

 

Ash's blade storm does 2,000 damage on each target it hits, up to 18 attacks. It gives a 100% bleed chance and does 35% of the initial damage per tick, which ticks seven times.  Notice that the bleed proc damage is equal to 245% of the initial damage dealt, and bypases armor and shields.  Blade storm applies finishing damage, which means that it has no damage reduction to different enemy types. While this ability is active, during the animation, Ash is immune to damage.  This ability also happens to count as a melee attack and stacks melee combo counters.  After 15 combo counter stacks, strength doubles which in effect doubles the damage output of this ability.  When enemies are hit by this, they usually die instantly.  The only negative thing regarding blade storm that it has a max of 18 targets, but that satisfies the melee counter bonus perfectly.  These facts are with a max level Ash and no mods.

 

Now for poor Ember... Her World on Fire ability does 400 damage per tick of damage, with a max of 4.5 ticks per second.  WoF lasts for ten seconds and has a max amount of 45 ticks of damage.  Each tick has one small AoE explosion that detonates under a random enemy, possibly catching others in effect.  WoF does heat damage, which is weak against protoshields, and does not ignore armor.  While the math states that the damage potential rivals storm blade, all 45 ticks of damage have to go through armor before actual damage is applied.  Ember gets no kind of damage reduction even while in the animation.  Due to only one explosion at a time and having to go through armor, WoF cannot clear rooms full of enemies at any decent speed and is more likely to wind up dead rather than killing her enemies.

 

I am not being entirely fair though.  After all, what good Ember would use WoF and not use accelerant with it!!!  Accelerant gives 250% multiplier to heat damage.  This seems pretty good, but considering blade storm, with a 15 combo stack, gets double damage along with the 245% bleed damage, and considering how Ember still has to go through armor multiple times she still is incapable of administering the amount damage, or damage per second, that Ash is capable of.

 

In regards to survivability all Ember has is her accelerant  which does a minor radial stun.  Very much sub par.

 

Ash, on the other hand, has both an invisibility and a teleport that are at his disposal and can be used to evade enemies. 

 

No matter how the math is done, Ember is out classed in every way and is currently not worth using.  If people think that a few simple tweeks are going to fix Embers dire needs, then they are sorely mistaken.  Ember needs an overhaul; preferably something that makes her seem like the roaring, billowing, fire breathing, bone melting, glass cannon that she was truly meant to be!!!   Though any change would be more than welcome for this poor damsel in distress.

Edited January 8, 2015 by SageBanshee

[Hybridon]

Fixable by modding for short duration but you lose WoF long duration

 

It still acts as a fair burst

 

Just to go back into the Miasma comparison you made. It deals its damage instantly and on every target in range, Ember has a limited number of targets and the exact same range, 15m.

Edited January 8, 2015 by Hybridon

[Azawarau]

Just to go back into the Miasma comparison you made. It deals its damage instantly and on every target in range, Ember has a limited number of targets and the exact same range, 15m.

Working differently isnt exactly a disadvantage

 

One of the reasons embers 4 should be a toggle

 

Shes already able to get damage higher than Miasma but she needs a way to sustain it

[Hybridon]

Working differently isnt exactly a disadvantage

 

One of the reasons embers 4 should be a toggle

 

Shes already able to get damage higher than Miasma but she needs a way to sustain it

 

On a limited number of targets. If she deals 400 damage, with up to 4 per second on a 10 second duration, that adds up to 16k damage.

 

Miasma deals 1500k damage in the time of 4 seconds, 375 per tick.

 

So theoretically Ember deals more damage, but whats the difference?

 

If in the 15m range you have 15 enemies, all with 1500 effective health, Saryn will kill all 15. That means a total of 22.5k damage, killing all 15, and once they reach over 1500 effective health, that means they all will be almost dead, while all being stunned during the duration of the skill.

 

Ember on the other hand, with the same 15 enemies will have her power target one enemy at a time. Considering she will have to have 4 ticks per enemy to kill them (1600 damage, as each pillar deals 400 damage), she will have 10 enemies dead by the end of the skill, with 5 still alive, all with max health. Along with that, they are still shooting at her during those 10 seconds, including some of the enemies that will be dead by the end of the skill.

 

Making it a toggle will only make her able to kill the remaining enemies, but still subpar to Miasma.

 

Again, back to math, in order to kill all 15 enemies, lets make WoF a toggle.

 

That means she will need 15 seconds to kill them all, so in order to do that she will consume something around 150 energy (taking into consideration current toggle abilities costs). The bad thing is you get shot by all enemies that havent yet been targeted, so in order to CC you will need Accelerant, that will enhance the damage by 2.5.

 

This means, on paper, each pillar will go to around 1000k per tick, meaning 2 ticks per enemy. So you reduced it to 8 seconds, roughly, to clear 15 enemies, along with the need to cast Accelerant twice to keep them stunned (the stun on accelerant lasts 4 seconds). That adds up to 100 energy from accelerant, and something around 80 energy for WoF. 180 energy total, to deal with 15 enemies in 8 seconds.

 

Miasma deals with the same 15 enemies in 4, for the cost of 100 energy.

 

So please, stop thinking that making WoF a toggle will fix her, it wont, it will only alleviate her current problems that are a lack of a reliable CC, and subpar damage because of the limitations on her ultimate, that targets a single unit.

 

Even if you slap in the mods that make her deal more damage, and cost less energy, the same goes for Miasma, that also deals more damage if you reduce duration, making it even quicker to deal with massive numbers of enemies, while WoF falls short.

[Azawarau]

On a limited number of targets. If she deals 400 damage, with up to 4 per second on a 10 second duration, that adds up to 16k damage.

 

Miasma deals 1500k damage in the time of 4 seconds, 375 per tick.

 

So theoretically Ember deals more damage, but whats the difference?

 

If in the 15m range you have 15 enemies, all with 1500 effective health, Saryn will kill all 15. That means a total of 22.5k damage, killing all 15, and once they reach over 1500 effective health, that means they all will be almost dead, while all being stunned during the duration of the skill.

 

Ember on the other hand, with the same 15 enemies will have her power target one enemy at a time. Considering she will have to have 4 ticks per enemy to kill them (1600 damage, as each pillar deals 400 damage), she will have 10 enemies dead by the end of the skill, with 5 still alive, all with max health. Along with that, they are still shooting at her during those 10 seconds, including some of the enemies that will be dead by the end of the skill.

 

Making it a toggle will only make her able to kill the remaining enemies, but still subpar to Miasma.

 

Again, back to math, in order to kill all 15 enemies, lets make WoF a toggle.

 

That means she will need 15 seconds to kill them all, so in order to do that she will consume something around 150 energy (taking into consideration current toggle abilities costs). The bad thing is you get shot by all enemies that havent yet been targeted, so in order to CC you will need Accelerant, that will enhance the damage by 2.5.

 

This means, on paper, each pillar will go to around 1000k per tick, meaning 2 ticks per enemy. So you reduced it to 8 seconds, roughly, to clear 15 enemies, along with the need to cast Accelerant twice to keep them stunned (the stun on accelerant lasts 4 seconds). That adds up to 100 energy from accelerant, and something around 80 energy for WoF. 180 energy total, to deal with 15 enemies in 8 seconds.

 

Miasma deals with the same 15 enemies in 4, for the cost of 100 energy.

 

So please, stop thinking that making WoF a toggle will fix her, it wont, it will only alleviate her current problems that are a lack of a reliable CC, and subpar damage because of the limitations on her ultimate, that targets a single unit.

 

Even if you slap in the mods that make her deal more damage, and cost less energy, the same goes for Miasma, that also deals more damage if you reduce duration, making it even quicker to deal with massive numbers of enemies, while WoF falls short.

Somehow you forgot that accelerant boots damage to up to above 8k per tick in all of that

[Djego27]

As somebody that played Ember a lot and invested a lot of time to farm for NM and Curruped mods and forma on it as the first frame to mod and build properly to get into T4 def or survial I mostly agree with the OP. Compared to other nuke frame options(Mag, Saryn, Nova), when I look at the results on the DPS at the end(T4 40 waves or 40 minutes) or just my general gameplay, the results with ember are rather underwhelming. Like 23% vs 61% damage done in a 40 waves T4 def against a saryn, that is farily bad for a DPS frame(NM/Coruped mods on both and similar high dps weapons) and players with a lot of routine how to position and move around get as much dps as possible on the mobs that approach from different directions.

 

Ember would need even more speed then the 1.1, in general without a maxed rush mod you lose tons of effectivness and survialbility up close and the performance becomes fairly bad(because you can't bring world on fire where it needs to be quick enught before it runs out and you get major issues to dodge chargers at close without it). The only situation where I remove the rush mod is high level defence where you rarly leave the snow globe later on anyway. Even if that forces you to use energy restores a lot because you actually need the slot for duration, it is a small price to pay compared being squishy, slow and at close range. I don't really care so much about hp and armor if you would have CC you can work with, since later on CC will keep you alive, while a few HP more or less will not make a big difference.

 

The main problem in my eyes is that the CC of accelerant is not reliable at all since it only work when the targets are not under the effect of accelerant allready, as well as any other form of CC that is RNG based(hi fireball and fire blast), this is what kills you all the time once you go up in enemy level and my main reason why I don't bring the frame to longer survial/defence runs this days. It is plain and simple not playable if your survialbiltiy is based on CC that doesn't work properly and after 30 waves/minutes the non scaling dps of WoF doesn't bring a lot to the table anymore(while stacked at all time with Accelerant allready). Saryn, Mag and Nova are a lot better in this regard, because they are not as squishy(for mag and saryn with HP/heal mechanics, for nova because mprime helps a lot to not get overwhelmend and to avoid hits by chargers etc.) and have CC build into her ultimates what is way more useful than the damage in the long run.

 

WoF needs some amount of scalable damage on top of the static damage. The reason for this is that shield/armor scaling makes Ember fairly bad later on, while other frames have scalable damage(like mag with shield polarise or Saryn with procs) or utility that makes them useful later on(like the slow of mprime). Lets say 2% of the shield/armor, affected by mods that gives you about 3.85% after Transient Fortitude and Intensify.

 

One more thing to adress would be the problem that Ember has to stack duration, strength, energy efficency and range like no other warframe I am aware off, while you still need slots to compensate for basic problems(speed mostly). The reason for that is that you need duration for your WOF, else running it non stop will kill your energy pool. You need tons of efficency since you non stop stack 2 ablitys on top of each other, plus useing fireball vs groups. Overall compared to my other nuke frames(Mag and Nova) I feel 1-2 slots short on her when it comes to modding, simply because you need 7 of your 8 slots to make WoF work properly with a sufficent uptime(I use the last one for vitality).

 

I don't need a rush mod on Nova, because the frame is fast enught allready and doesn't have to be that close for mprime. While I use flow because it makes energy management easy and you got a spare slot for that I probably wouldn't even need fleeting expertise, since even if you use antimatter drop a lot it is nowhere close to the 200 energy(before mods) you burn with ember every 10 seconds -> WoF + at least 2 times accelrant is what you have to keep up at all time). I don't need rush one on my Mag, because with overextended(what you can't use on Ember because it kills your dps and you lack the slots to compensate) I got plenty of range, so being not that fast doesn't really matter. All this frames feel to offer some slots that you can use on utility, like flow or gear it to specific tasks with mods like overextendet, blind range, narrow minded or syndicate mods. Ember needs more duration/range on WoF or less energy use for WoF and accelerant to at least have 1 slot to play with in a reasonable build. Currently you need every single slot just to make WoF work, even if I just add the rush mod(that you honestly need to get the dps of WoF on the targets quick enught), it directly penalizing me with a lot less duration what results in more energy I have to burn in the same time and less dps by the haveing the 2.2s cast every 8s instead of 10s.

 

Currently I only use the frame to farm interception or defence for T1 or T2 keys or rushing invasions/allerts, not because I couldn't do it just as quick in my nova or mag, but because the frame is actually a lot of fun to play with and I love to take it for a spin but most of the time I can't really justify it because other frames bring a lot more to the table for difficult content. That is very sad in my opinion.

Edited January 8, 2015 by Djego27

[Hybridon]

Somehow you forgot that accelerant boots damage to up to above 8k per tick in all of that

 

No, you only need to now how to do basic math, it isn't even that hard.

 

400 damage X 250% damage boost from accelerant.

 

100% = 400 so 250% = 1000

 

ON A SINGLE TARGET.

 

Please, it would be nice if you stop posting, you keep on posting nonsense even though a fe posters have already given you the math as to why WoF is lackluster.

 

It doesnt matter if it can hit 200k damage in 10 seconds, it delivers that damage to single targets and to get a good enough CC you need to use a second skill, while most frames deliver that kind of damage on more than one target, or in a much better form if single targeted (ash, for instance).

 

So please, stop, stop while theres enough time for you not to reach the bottom of the pit.

[Azawarau]

No, you only need to now how to do basic math, it isn't even that hard.

 

400 damage X 250% damage boost from accelerant.

 

100% = 400 so 250% = 1000

 

ON A SINGLE TARGET.

 

Please, it would be nice if you stop posting, you keep on posting nonsense even though a fe posters have already given you the math as to why WoF is lackluster.

 

It doesnt matter if it can hit 200k damage in 10 seconds, it delivers that damage to single targets and to get a good enough CC you need to use a second skill, while most frames deliver that kind of damage on more than one target, or in a much better form if single targeted (ash, for instance).

 

So please, stop, stop while theres enough time for you not to reach the bottom of the pit.

See this is where i get frustrated with people like you

 

Power STR for Saryn = more damage to Miasma

 

Power STR for ember means more to WoF and Accelerant

 

She scales better with power STR

 

If youre going to go off bases then youre just twisting it i your favor

 

And early didnt you say

 

 

up to 4 per second

 

Why is it suddenly sounding like youre trying to imply its one target

 

And are we going to ignore how ive said making WoF into a toggle alone solves ember VS saryn?

 

Fox news is everywhere

[Hybridon]

See this is where i get frustrated with people like you

 

Power STR for Saryn = more damage to Miasma

 

Power STR for ember means more to WoF and Accelerant

 

She scales better with power STR

 

If youre going to go off bases then youre just twisting it i your favor

 

And early didnt you say

 

 

 

Why is it suddenly sounding like youre trying to imply its one target

 

And are we going to ignore how ive said making WoF into a toggle alone solves ember VS saryn?

 

Fox news is everywhere

 

4 per second is how many times the ability hits per second... ON ONE FREAKIN TARGET. Seriously, you need to work on your reading skills.

 

Accelerant benefits from power strength also, sure, but you still use up more energy to have a 4 second stun, and enhance fire damage, that gets severely cut down by armor.

 

Saryn on the other hand doesnt need 2 powers to deal damage on everybody in range, along with a better proc that is corrosive, and a better damage type against armored units.

 

If you then use fleeting on Ember, considering WoF a toggle, not as it is atm, you lower its energy cost... while Saryn gains even more damage from reducing her duration. Fleeting on the other hand makes your already short stun on Accelerant, even shorter.

 

Saryn has better stats overall to get into close combat and deal with masses... Ember goes in to close quarters and burns through energy to deal with... 1 target at a time.

 

Learn to read, or just stop posting.

[Azawarau]

4 per second is how many times the ability hits per second... ON ONE FREAKIN TARGET. Seriously, you need to work on your reading skills.

 

Accelerant benefits from power strength also, sure, but you still use up more energy to have a 4 second stun, and enhance fire damage, that gets severely cut down by armor.

 

Saryn on the other hand doesnt need 2 powers to deal damage on everybody in range, along with a better proc that is corrosive, and a better damage type against armored units.

 

If you then use fleeting on Ember, considering WoF a toggle, not as it is atm, you lower its energy cost... while Saryn gains even more damage from reducing her duration. Fleeting on the other hand makes your already short stun on Accelerant, even shorter.

 

Saryn has better stats overall to get into close combat and deal with masses... Ember goes in to close quarters and burns through energy to deal with... 1 target at a time.

 

Learn to read, or just stop posting.

Youre assuming it doesnt kill te target in one tick then?

 

All damage including saryns corrosive is cut down by armor

 

Both fire and corrosive deal extra damage to grineer

 

Fire deals 25% more to flesh and Corrosive 75% more to Ferrite

 

If im not reading into this wrong Ember has a flat 25% boost against most grineer where saryn has her 75% against heavies only

 

Without a corrosive proc she doesnt rally have an advantage there

 

Fleeting doesnt affect the stun time on accelerant at all. It onyl affects the debuff time.

 

You seem to be frustrated at this point and full of misinformation on elementals,scaling, and the effects of accelerant

 

Id suggest taking a break and coming back after doing some reading on the wiki and brainstorming

[Hybridon]

Youre assuming it doesnt kill te target in one tick then?

 

All damage including saryns corrosive is cut down by armor

 

Both fire and corrosive deal extra damage to grineer

 

Fire deals 25% more to flesh and Corrosive 75% more to Ferrite

 

If im not reading into this wrong Ember has a flat 25% boost against most grineer where saryn has her 75% against heavies only

 

Without a corrosive proc she doesnt rally have an advantage there

 

Fleeting doesnt affect the stun time on accelerant at all. It onyl affects the debuff time.

 

You seem to be frustrated at this point and full of misinformation on elementals,scaling, and the effects of accelerant

 

Id suggest taking a break and coming back after doing some reading on the wiki and brainstorming

 

Fire deals 25% more to flesh, Corrosive deals 75% to Ferrite. Please, enlighten me then, what are the enemies that get the most effective health on higher levels, the puny enemies, or the heavies? Then we know why people mod for corrosive, and not for fire.

 

Back to the table then, do some mathematics. 8k per tick on WoF costs 155 energy + 77.5 from accelerant.

 

Lets say 15 enemies with 8k effective health enter your radius. To kill 15 enemies you will take up 4 seconds precisely. If we made it a toggle, that would be around 90 energy for WoF + 77.5 from accelerant. Total = 167.5 energy.

 

This isnt even taking into account current casting time of WoF. If that would be taken into account, you get the value to around 190-200 energy because of the 2.2 seconds.

 

Now Saryn. Saryn deals precisely 1500k damage with no mods on, 375 per second along with an initial hidden tick for 375. Because of this hidden tick, and going by the same maximization, just like Ember, we get her damage up to around 8520k divided in 2 ticks, in 1 second (fleeting + transient put her down to a 1 second Miasma). Correct me if Im wrong, but that means 155 energy to deal 500 more damage without a target limitation?

 

If you are interested in the math.

 

Miasma deals 1500 damage over 4 seconds + a hidden tick equal to the other ticks. By reducing her duration to 1 second, she then deals 1500 damage over 1 second. That means a single 1500 damage tick, meaning the hidden tick also goes for 1500. So essentially she deals 3k. Add in the 184% damage from transient, blind rage and intensify, you get 8520 damage on Miasma.

 

So please, come on, show me how Ember is so amazing.

 

The moment those enemies get 8001 effective health, she takes double the time to deal with them because of that extra 1 hp that she will unload another 8k damage. So to keep them stunned she starts using more accelerant to keep them stunned.

 

Miasma if it doesnt kill, can proc corrosive, WoF can proc fire, problem is the same target that gets procced will get a second tick of fire, and as you go forth and they get really tanky, WoF will fall short very quick, because it doesnt target other enemies providing CC with the fire proc, while Miasma, that wont be killing also, will have a chance to proc corrosive, while hitting all targets, and not a single one.

 

Making WoF a toggle doesnt fix the ability, its a nice addition, but still keeps her subpar, no matter how much you try to say the contrary.

 

You lose any CC

[Azawarau]

Fire deals 25% more to flesh, Corrosive deals 75% to Ferrite. Please, enlighten me then, what are the enemies that get the most effective health on higher levels, the puny enemies, or the heavies? Then we know why people mod for corrosive, and not for fire.

 

Back to the table then, do some mathematics. 8k per tick on WoF costs 155 energy + 77.5 from accelerant.

 

Lets say 15 enemies with 8k effective health enter your radius. To kill 15 enemies you will take up 4 seconds precisely. If we made it a toggle, that would be around 90 energy for WoF + 77.5 from accelerant. Total = 167.5 energy.

 

This isnt even taking into account current casting time of WoF. If that would be taken into account, you get the value to around 190-200 energy because of the 2.2 seconds.

 

Now Saryn. Saryn deals precisely 1500k damage with no mods on, 375 per second along with an initial hidden tick for 375. Because of this hidden tick, and going by the same maximization, just like Ember, we get her damage up to around 8520k divided in 2 ticks, in 1 second (fleeting + transient put her down to a 1 second Miasma). Correct me if Im wrong, but that means 155 energy to deal 500 more damage without a target limitation?

 

If you are interested in the math.

 

Miasma deals 1500 damage over 4 seconds + a hidden tick equal to the other ticks. By reducing her duration to 1 second, she then deals 1500 damage over 1 second. That means a single 1500 damage tick, meaning the hidden tick also goes for 1500. So essentially she deals 3k. Add in the 184% damage from transient, blind rage and intensify, you get 8520 damage on Miasma.

 

So please, come on, show me how Ember is so amazing.

 

The moment those enemies get 8001 effective health, she takes double the time to deal with them because of that extra 1 hp that she will unload another 8k damage. So to keep them stunned she starts using more accelerant to keep them stunned.

 

Miasma if it doesnt kill, can proc corrosive, WoF can proc fire, problem is the same target that gets procced will get a second tick of fire, and as you go forth and they get really tanky, WoF will fall short very quick, because it doesnt target other enemies providing CC with the fire proc, while Miasma, that wont be killing also, will have a chance to proc corrosive, while hitting all targets, and not a single one.

 

Making WoF a toggle doesnt fix the ability, its a nice addition, but still keeps her subpar, no matter how much you try to say the contrary.

 

You lose any CC

You are on fire now but there are some problems

 

Youre not accounting for the 25% bonus to Cloned flesh that ember will have over saryn enough

 

Neither will kill a heavy quickly (Youll cast 3 or 4 times with saryn and ember and not be able to) so lets phase that out for a sec

 

Now lets go under the assumption ember has Toggleable WoF and max power STR

 

You get your 8k damage per tick, 3 seconds of stun, and 710% damage boost on the fire damage of your weapons

 

Like ive said in the thread i made.

 

Less time casting WoF or having it fall short on you means more time to shoot with the damage boost youll be getting

 

Can saryn beat not only world on fire with its extra damage to flesh but accelerants damage boost as well?

 

I dont think so

 

Ember is costly to use but she packs the punch to back it up

Edited January 8, 2015 by Azawarau

[Hybridon]

You are on fire now but there are some problems

 

Youre not accounting for the 25% bonus to Cloned flesh that ember will have over saryn enough

 

Neither will kill a heavy quickly (Youll cast 3 or 4 times with saryn and ember and not be able to) so lets phase that out for a sec

 

Now lets go under the assumption ember has Toggleable WoF and max power STR

 

You get your 8k damage per tick, 3 seconds of stun, and 710% damage boost on the fire damage of your weapons

 

Like ive said in the thread i made.

 

Less time casting WoF or having it fall short on you means more time to shoot with the damage boost youll be getting

 

Can saryn beat not only world on fire with its extra damage to flesh but accelerants damage boost as well?

 

I dont think so

 

Ember is costly to use but she packs the punch to back it up

 

WoF has a limited range. So for you to be effective you have to get up close, thats why she falls down short, you still dont get it do you? You are trying to do too much with too little.

 

If we are going to count other stuff other than the damage itself of the ultimates, youll end up losing again.

 

Did you even realize what you did?

 

We said WoF is worse than Miasma... you then said but theres Accelerant. Then again we prove that the cost for a good WoF along with Accelerant is higher than Miasma alone, that still deals more damage, and you add in weapons.

 

If we are going to continue adding other factors, then well mod Saryn with Vitality, Rage and Equilibrium, and watch her have almost infinite energy to keep recasting Miasma. While Ember cant really benefit from that combo.

 

Saryn has Molt, that with the new augment can recover health. Saryn can put on Life Strike and go up close with her #3 and regain health... Ember can go up close and die with her caster stats.

 

Saryn can use Venom to half enemies HP... Ember can... shoot.

 

You keep comparing, but Ember loses in almost all aspects towards a full modded frame, and loses in a humiliating way when unmodded.

 

She is slow and doesnt pack armor, health or shields to make up for that. Her damage dealing abilities are mediocre and single-targeted. Her debuff and CC doesnt last long enough, so you waste energy to keep recasting.

 

In that build where you get 8k, you waste away 5 mod slots only on Streamline, Fleeting, Blind Rage, Transient and intensify.

 

The other 3 slots would be?

 

On Saryn you can get her a good loop of energy to sustain her, with Flow, Rage and Vitality, so she has enough energy. Im not going to take into account primed mods, because that is restricted, you cant balance a frame around prime mods.

 

What about ember? Stack in stretch for a higher range, considering that you need that extra range to try and keep her out of danger?

 

To get 8k damage per tick, the energy cost is too damn high for little to no return on higher level play.

[Azawarau]

WoF has a limited range. So for you to be effective you have to get up close, thats why she falls down short, you still dont get it do you? You are trying to do too much with too little.

 

If we are going to count other stuff other than the damage itself of the ultimates, youll end up losing again.

 

Did you even realize what you did?

 

We said WoF is worse than Miasma... you then said but theres Accelerant. Then again we prove that the cost for a good WoF along with Accelerant is higher than Miasma alone, that still deals more damage, and you add in weapons.

 

If we are going to continue adding other factors, then well mod Saryn with Vitality, Rage and Equilibrium, and watch her have almost infinite energy to keep recasting Miasma. While Ember cant really benefit from that combo.

 

Saryn has Molt, that with the new augment can recover health. Saryn can put on Life Strike and go up close with her #3 and regain health... Ember can go up close and die with her caster stats.

 

Saryn can use Venom to half enemies HP... Ember can... shoot.

 

You keep comparing, but Ember loses in almost all aspects towards a full modded frame, and loses in a humiliating way when unmodded.

 

She is slow and doesnt pack armor, health or shields to make up for that. Her damage dealing abilities are mediocre and single-targeted. Her debuff and CC doesnt last long enough, so you waste energy to keep recasting.

 

In that build where you get 8k, you waste away 5 mod slots only on Streamline, Fleeting, Blind Rage, Transient and intensify.

 

The other 3 slots would be?

 

On Saryn you can get her a good loop of energy to sustain her, with Flow, Rage and Vitality, so she has enough energy. Im not going to take into account primed mods, because that is restricted, you cant balance a frame around prime mods.

 

What about ember? Stack in stretch for a higher range, considering that you need that extra range to try and keep her out of danger?

 

To get 8k damage per tick, the energy cost is too damn high for little to no return on higher level play.

I like how youre acting like im bringing up new things

 

Refer to my benefits of WoF thread point 4 IIRC that was also posted in this thread where i pointed out that along with WoF tick damage you get great damage from accelerant boost without having to stop

 

 

4.With less stopping and more moving youll find more time to make use of your fire based weapons on top of your AoE damage

 

That means Your 8k WoF ticks come with the added bonus of whatever fire damage you have on your weapon multiplied by accelerants boost

 

Thats from this thread

 

You cant just ignore the benefits of embers power scaling for your argument

 

Ember can afford to drop streamline if the persons build has other useful things to it but for me personally the last 3 slots would go to vitality flow and rage

 

For saryn you have to have the same mods so im not sure where that argument was going

 

On enemies under 30 you dont need accelerant so energy isnt as much of a problem

 

On modes where there are a ton of enemies sustaining yourself wont be an issue unless you dont have any energy efficiency at all

 

The biggest issue is knowing how to mod her out for which situation