Energy 2.0: The Anti-4 To Win And A Bit Of Balancing

xCaptainObviousx · January 14, 2015

I'm not going to argue, I just wanted to get my opinion out there.

geninrising · January 14, 2015

I'm not going to argue, I just wanted to get my opinion out there.

LOL he was Not arguing with you he was clarifying a point on how Energy siphon is not even 1/10th of the problem with energy availability versus the amount we spend.

Edited January 14, 2015 by geninrising

DEDENX · January 14, 2015

I do agree that the energy system needs something of an overhaul.

One way to re-work energy would be to do something like Diablo III has done and make a warframe's first ability generate rather than spend energy. This would mean that you would build up the energy by using your warframe's basic abilities and then let loose with your other three as circumstances dictate. Of course, that kind of system would probably require a fundamental re-balance of many of the abilities of the warframes, so... It's unlikely to happen.

geninrising · January 14, 2015

I do agree that the energy system needs something of an overhaul.

One way to re-work energy would be to do something like Diablo III has done and make a warframe's first ability generate rather than spend energy. This would mean that you would build up the energy by using your warframe's basic abilities and then let loose with your other three as circumstances dictate. Of course, that kind of system would probably require a fundamental re-balance of many of the abilities of the warframes, so... It's unlikely to happen.

Anything is better than nothing.

Azawarau · January 14, 2015

I'm not going to argue, I just wanted to get my opinion out there.

LOL he was Not arguing with you he was clarifying a point on how Energy siphon is not even 1/10th of the problem with energy availability versus the amount we spend.

^That

Es is kind of a low on the list of energy issues

AlphaHorseman · January 15, 2015

This is where i let out a big sigh and just go with it

Im not saying no just because, dont lump me together with you. Ive given examples of where and why its bad for the game extensively at this point and youre still coming with subjective arguments

"A full rework in the energy system like this limits people from that specialization and customization. This isn't just subjective, it's a fact."

Thats literally the point. Youve said nothing here but state that id like to see that thig changed which is a fact. Nothing to really defend why except

"I like how I can use my powers if I have enough energy for them, they may not be available all the time, but I like how it is now. This new system limits me further from using my powers whenever I so build to go as my caster build. I.e. tons of energy and high efficiency."

And then placing me on the spot of the bad guy. Im not this evil villain who jsut wants to ruin your fun or gameplay. To be honest, youre kind of a $&*^ for constantly painting it that way.

"You're telling someone else how you think their ability to use their tools should be, when they already know how to use their tools and can specialize their tools to fit their needs."

Im not telling you you cant do this thing because i dont want you to. STOP ACTING LIKE A 4 YEAR OLD CHILD

Im saying this thing isnt fair for everyone. Its hurting the game and the balance of the game. It takes away from the games theme heavily as well as trivializes enemies to the point that 3/4 players can stand and do nothing for the majority of a mission

Its also been called an exploit by a dev

"Our ‘press 4 to win’ ultimates are metered primarily by the supply of energy. Finding an energy loophole means that Homer’s drinking bird can play the game for you. That is not team synergy. That is just broken.

This fall, starting with Excalibur, we’ve begun to take a hard look at these ‘X-Ray AOE’ abilities and wonder if we can bring more elements of skill back in. That’s the short answer to ‘why the hell is DE messing with us’. Homer’s drinking bird should not play the game for you."

My example was an equal and opposite extreme. Just as trivializing enemies is an extreme. If you want to discredit my example youll have to show how its more extreme than what youre saying. Speaking of extremes

Where the game now is an extreme and should be changed for the reasons mentioned in this and many threads before.

You cant not have a stance on it then say we should be able to choose. Youre basically being a hypocrite by saying "Its not wrong or right but i think it should stay"

Might as well have said it was right, thats obviously your position on it

"I know damn well I'm right."

You know what

I know damn well im right too. We have something in common

Is that an argument that isnt subjective? No

Have you given at least one yet? Kind of but not a particularly good one since all you said was "He wants to change this thing and thats a fact"

My defense to that point is that it isn't supposed to be that way because we have this massive customization system. We have the ability to tailor our gear and frames to our play style and enjoy the game. Limitations like this eliminate a big part of that.

Everyone has the ability to choose how they play. If you're lumped with someone who likes to spam their powers, and you don't like it, you have the ability to ask them to not do so, so do the others. If that one guy doesn't, then I'd say he's an &#! for saying that to you guys. There are ways out of it, you could leave and join another match. Find a match with friends, or with clanmates. Go solo, go private, go to recruiting, or even go in a PUB again and try your luck there. Not everyone is going to play like how you want to play, but that doesn't mean an entire system change should make it so everyone is playing more similarly than before simply because some people thought it would be better. REMEMBER, that someone who likes using his powers WOULD ALSO have to go through the same steps if they wanted to find people who play similarly to them.

How is it hurting the game? How is this "destroying" the balance of the game? My Boltor Prime can clear a room in T4 easily, so can my Paris Prime, so can my Dread, so can my Soma Prime, so can my [insert weapon name here]. Is it wrong for them to be able to do that? No, at least I don't think so. I built them to be end-tier weaponry that can smash apart anything my enemies can throw at me. Is that not "trivializing" the content of literally the highest tiered content currently available to us?

Yes, I've seen Genin use that against me, and I've shot it down every time. Even AFTER Vivergate, where Steve stated that, even AFTER he stated that, they release Primed Continuity, Primed Flow, and Primed Streamline is on the way, I believe. Actions speak louder than words. To put it in better words, here:

SteavewithanA, on 11 Jan 2015 - 8:09 PM, said:

How are we both doing the exact same thing as people asking for a change? We are advocating freedom and player choice. Not taking away choice...

Spammers are not invalidating your playstyle and taking away your choices. You have the choice to leave or stay. They cant take that away from you. If you don't like the way someone else is playing the game then find a different group. Simple as that. You are refusing to utilize your choice. There is a difference. If I don't like the way a random group is playing I leave. I don't sit in a group that I don't like. I take the responsibility for my own enjoyment. I don't put it on others. By advocating that the game be changed so that people can't spam their powers you are advocating to take away choice....

I claim that we are using our skills as they were designed. No one is hacking their character to gain unlimited energy for ability spam. No one is exploiting anything. Using skills / gear items as they were designed is not an exploit. If DE didn't intend for Energy Vampire to return energy to the whole team than they kinda screwed the pooch on that one because that is exactly the skill they designed. If that wasn't intended then that is a major oversight. If they didn't intend to have energy restores restore energy then not sure how they got in the game. If they didn't intend for Primed Flow to increase or energy pool then why did they put it in the game? A mistake? Did they mean for it to do something else but screwed up the coding? If they didn't intend for 2 of the 6 new syndicate weapons to restore 25% max energy then how in the hell did they get coded that way? Keep in mind that these things were added AFTER viver. After they made statements that they didn't intend for powers to be spammed in such a manner they added more ways to spam powers. So i'll say it again. Either these things are working as they were designed / intended or DE has absolutely no idea what content is being added to their game.

Yes I do say that you should play with like minded individuals. I say this because you want everyone in your squad to play a certain way. That puts the burden on you. If you want everyone in your squad to conform to your notion of how the game should be played then you should play with others that share the same mindset. Thats another difference between the "play how I want" group and the "ability spammers" that you seem to be to dense to comprehend. They dont care how you play. They don't care if you don't use a single ability. It doesn't matter to them. They are not expecting you to conform to their play style. You are expecting them to conform to yours. That puts the burden on you. If you want to play in random groups then that is what you will get. Random. Random people play random ways. I'll say it again just to make it clear. You want everyone in your squad to conform to your notion of how the game should be played. You want to force others to play the way you want. It's all about you. "Play my way.". "Play how I want.". If you don't like the way your squad is playing find a different one. When you demand that others play your way the burden is on you to find people that want to play that way. Not on the rest of the community to conform to you wishes.

Spammers don't need to recruit players UNLESS they expect everyone in their squad to spam powers as well. If they want everyone in their squad to conform to their notion of how the game is played then they need to find like minded people to play with. But thats the thing mate. They don't. They don't care how you or the others in their squad play. They are not trying to force you into a particular playstyle. They are, for the most part, willing to let you play however you see fit. But you're right on one thing. There had never been a thread about guns ruining other peoples fun. I've never once seen a thread claiming that some one with a Boltor Prime or a Penta was ruining someone else's fun. Never. Ever....

I have already addressed your claim that the burden falls on spammers to go to recruit chat. I have already addressed your claims that they are exploiting the system. But i'll reiterate just to be clear. Using abilities / gear as they were designed is not an exploit. It's not. Not. If they were not intended to be in the game then why are they in the game? The burden falls on the individual that expects the rest of their squad to conform to their notion of how the game should be played. Whichever group they happen to be in. But since I have never seen a thread where a spammer was complaining that someone was not spamming their powers i'm going to continue to draw the conclusion that it is the non spammers who want everyone else to conform to their desires and as such the burden falls on them. You have the choice to play as you like, with whomever you like. I support everyone's ability to have choice. If you don't like the way your squad mates are playing you have the choice to leave and find a different squad.

Oh and here too:

You can play the way you want now. You don't need balance to do so. You only need balance to force others to play your way. (How hard is that to understand?)

You only have to segregate yourself if you want everyone to conform to your notion of how to play. That is the case in any game. If I expect everyone in my squad to run meta builds and meta group comps then I have to segregate myself form the majority of the player base. Thats just the way it is. Any time you expect your entire team to conform to your notion of how to play the game, regardless of what that notion is, you have to segregate yourself form those who don't.

Have you ever heard the phrase "actions speak louder than words."? For the sake of argument i'll assume you have. Saying one thing, "abilities should not be spammed", then adding items into the game after making that statement should tell you enough of DEs true feelings on the subject. I can say that i'm a millionaire. But if I have 20 bucks in the bank what I say means nothing. If by "reducing your chances of being able to play for extended periods of time thanks to the whole recruiting portion of your stated fix" you really mean "the majority of players play in a way I don't like, making me the minority, I am not willing to find other players who share my mindset, because there is no one else that shares my mindset, not enough of the community shares my views for me to find 3 others to play with at any given time, because no one who agrees with my view in this thread is one of those people, and I expect the majority to play how I want because I said so" well......yeah.....

Again, my guns can trivialize anything in the game. Invulnerability bosses, nah, because they have those phases. I can get them to go through those phases quickly, and die faster. Not to mention my guns do more damage longer than my powers do. My Bow still can go 50k damage on headshots without red crits, my Avalanche, not really, maxes out at 3k I think now. Haven't maxed out Transient Fortitude yet, so hopefully more.

No that's not all there's to it.
A player is allowed to have fun within the games restrictions, the game should provide them with diversity and challenge to provide as many people as possible with options, different but satisfying ways to play the game.

Now the problem with Warframe is that it doesn't have any restrictions, and yet somehow it manages to restrict you to one way of playing the game if you don't want to end up as dead-weight to your team. You either go corrupted efficiency build or else you'll never be able to compete with/or contribute to your team. Screw any other option at your disposal, if you use them, you are objectively inferior, not just subjectively.

This is the same argument as your first paragraph. I'll reroute my answer to my first paragraph.

You speak of Freedom of choice?!

Do you even know why people discuss balance? It's so that a player never should feel inferior to another just because he chose another way to play the game, that the choice the player makes can still keep him relevant in a game, so that a players choice never becomes completely inferior or irrelevant to another! The entire point of balance is to strengthen player choice! Yet here you are trying to argue that keeping the current system is Freedom of Choice? How many choices do you have in the game exactly? Nuke StronK or Nuke many? Wow, such variety! Sounds like bias to me.

So 4+4 = 12 right? I must be correct because I am very passionate about math and no amount of objectivity can prove me wrong.

Presenting your arguments with objectivity serves to strengthen the presentation of it.

Presenting your argument with bias and subjectivity does the complete opposite and only serves to tear your own argument apart.

THERE ARE RESTRICTIONS TO OUR POWERS! NOT ALL POWERS ARE NUKES! The very nature of our powers limits them. Not all of them deal damage, some have good utility, some have bad, some just don't have utility/cc outright. A Loki can't use Radial Disarm and blow the whole area up. A Frost can't use Avalanche and expect his enemies to go flying. The very nature of our powers limits their possibility of use, that, in and of itself, is a restriction.

Not to mention the restrictions that come in when modding. You want to use Fleeting? Well you're gonna lose out on your duration. You know what, I'll just copy and paste my response to Genin here:

high efficiency is a way some people build. Some people go for it, some people don't. It depends on the players themselves and the missions they're going into. Without a detrimental balancing factor? If you go full efficiency, you lose 60% of your duration if you max Fleeting, or 50% if you go Fleeting and near max Streamline. How the heck is that not a balancing factor? Not to mention a player could add in a duration mod to try and help offset this, and even maxed out Continuity or Constitution doesn't do that. In tandem they could, but you use up 2 slots to try and offset the detriment of Fleeting. Only other mod that can actually offset this withoutbeing a Corrupted mod is Primed Continuity, of which not everyone has, and is a Vay Hek of a lot harder to rank 9 to fully offset a near max Fleeting. Max out Fleeting, and even that mod couldn't do it. Your other option is Narrow Minded, of which also gives you a detriment as a balancing factor. SO you lose not only duration, but to shore it up, you use Narrow Minded to try and offset it, but you lose Range as well.

If you use regular mods, you can't fully offset Fleeting, or if you do it'll cost you 2 slots that could've been used for QoL mods or Duration mods. If you actually try using Corrupted Mods, you lose Range in exchange for Duration. You could slap stretch on there, but here you go, using 2 mod slots AGAIN to try and offset ONE detriment! SO PLEASE, ENOUGH WITH THE NO BALANCING FACTOR!

NO ONE is forcing you to go the Corrupted Efficiency route. Some people may consider it the META, but that doesn't mean it's right. The Defense Frost build I run goes for extended duration, power strength, and armor. I can't use Fleeting Expertise because it negates all of that. It gives me the power to lockdown the defense objective and ensure that my shield stays up strong, even in endless content. My Stealth Ash build goes for extended duration, I can't use Fleeting because that defeats the purpose. Loki Stealth builds as well. It isn't forced, you aren't a dead-beat, everyone can bring something to the table, just because it isn't exactly your own style doesn't mean it can't contribute. If people look down on a player by playing a certain way, that doesn't mean they should be forced to play differently. They have the opportunity to show those players that their builds function and do the job just as good as theirs, and I hope they do. If those players want to look down on those that don't run high efficiency, you could just leave and not deal with them. Report them for abuse. It isn't the fault of their builds, it's the persons own ego to say something like that to someone else.

Your inability to see that you don't even need to nuke is saddening. You don't even have to use nuking powers. You have your guns, you have your other powers, and you have your squad. NO ONE said you need to nuke, (unless your team requests it) you have the choice to use your nuke, or your guns, or your powers. BEFORE ANYONE says nukes are more powerful, remember that the total damage of a nuke is dependent on not ONLY your build, but the number of targets affected in the area. So sure, you can nuke the area, but if the total damage was 3k to a target, then it may not have been worth it. If you nuke and there's 15 targets in the area, good job, you just hit all targets individually for 45k, with damage to each being 3k. (Depending on Armor and resistances). My Paris Prime can shoot a Heavy Gunner in the Void for 40k WITHOUT red crits, that's a Hek of a lot higher DPS. Overall damage to a group, a strength build nuke can do the job, but an end-tier weapon will make sure the thing you're aiming at is dead the moment you click your mouse. There's some math for you.

I'm presenting my argument with subjectivity, it doesn't mean I'm wrong. Bias? Oh really? I'm biased for saying I like having the freedom to choose how I use my tools and when to use my tools? Oh, Ok. Just because you apparently don't like being emotionally involved in the argument doesn't mean you've got something better than me. It doesn't weaken my argument. In your eyes? Sure, think whatever in the blue hell you think. But I stand by my argument.

This is where they tell you to play with friends, avoid pubs, or go solo as if they couldnt do the same thing

Hypocrites, Masters of Irony, Defenders of Bias

You realize the argument could go the other way? Again, you will meet people who don't play how you play. That's the nature of PUBs sometimes, you get some apples that are like your apple, but you can also get some oranges that aren't like your apple. THE OPTIONS ARE THERE for you to find other people of similar play styles. WE DID NOT TELL YOU YOU EXPLICITLY had to do so. You'll get players with like minded play styles and those that don't in PUBs, that happens in any game.

And you, Azarawau, don't even dare start calling me names when you just lost that argument by stating we are telling you to go and do those things.

Here:

Yes I do say that you should play with like minded individuals. I say this because you want everyone in your squad to play a certain way. That puts the burden on you. If you want everyone in your squad to conform to your notion of how the game should be played then you should play with others that share the same mindset. Thats another difference between the "play how I want" group and the "ability spammers" that you seem to be to dense to comprehend. They dont care how you play. They don't care if you don't use a single ability. It doesn't matter to them. They are not expecting you to conform to their play style. You are expecting them to conform to yours. That puts the burden on you. If you want to play in random groups then that is what you will get. Random. Random people play random ways. I'll say it again just to make it clear. You want everyone in your squad to conform to your notion of how the game should be played. You want to force others to play the way you want. It's all about you. "Play my way.". "Play how I want.". If you don't like the way your squad is playing find a different one. When you demand that others play your way the burden is on you to find people that want to play that way. Not on the rest of the community to conform to you wishes.

Spammers don't need to recruit players UNLESS they expect everyone in their squad to spam powers as well. If they want everyone in their squad to conform to their notion of how the game is played then they need to find like minded people to play with. But thats the thing mate. They don't. They don't care how you or the others in their squad play. They are not trying to force you into a particular playstyle. They are, for the most part, willing to let you play however you see fit. But you're right on one thing. There had never been a thread about guns ruining other peoples fun. I've never once seen a thread claiming that some one with a Boltor Prime or a Penta was ruining someone else's fun. Never. Ever....

I have already addressed your claim that the burden falls on spammers to go to recruit chat. I have already addressed your claims that they are exploiting the system. But i'll reiterate just to be clear. Using abilities / gear as they were designed is not an exploit. It's not. Not. If they were not intended to be in the game then why are they in the game? The burden falls on the individual that expects the rest of their squad to conform to their notion of how the game should be played. Whichever group they happen to be in. But since I have never seen a thread where a spammer was complaining that someone was not spamming their powers i'm going to continue to draw the conclusion that it is the non spammers who want everyone else to conform to their desires and as such the burden falls on them. You have the choice to play as you like, with whomever you like. I support everyone's ability to have choice. If you don't like the way your squad mates are playing you have the choice to leave and find a different squad.

Oh and here too:

You can play the way you want now. You don't need balance to do so. You only need balance to force others to play your way. (How hard is that to understand?)

You only have to segregate yourself if you want everyone to conform to your notion of how to play. That is the case in any game. If I expect everyone in my squad to run meta builds and meta group comps then I have to segregate myself form the majority of the player base. Thats just the way it is. Any time you expect your entire team to conform to your notion of how to play the game, regardless of what that notion is, you have to segregate yourself form those who don't.

Have you ever heard the phrase "actions speak louder than words."? For the sake of argument i'll assume you have. Saying one thing, "abilities should not be spammed", then adding items into the game after making that statement should tell you enough of DEs true feelings on the subject. I can say that i'm a millionaire. But if I have 20 bucks in the bank what I say means nothing. If by "reducing your chances of being able to play for extended periods of time thanks to the whole recruiting portion of your stated fix" you really mean "the majority of players play in a way I don't like, making me the minority, I am not willing to find other players who share my mindset, because there is no one else that shares my mindset, not enough of the community shares my views for me to find 3 others to play with at any given time, because no one who agrees with my view in this thread is one of those people, and I expect the majority to play how I want because I said so" well......yeah.....

all we really need to do is have a better clamp on Energy.

we don't really have one currently.

if you mapwipe a room with an AoE Blast, you definitely picked up enough Energy to do it a few more times.

lots of Efficiency, and piles of Energy.

basically ad infinitum Energy unless Enemies are stealing it from us.

and the Enemies that steal it from us often steal it quite harshly, because there's so much Energy available that they need to steal it harshly for us to notice.

---------

some Abilities that aren't Slot 4 are also kind've meh.

some of them are great, some are good enough, but some are basically useless.

not to mention a general lack of any sort of Synergy.

make Players want to use all of their Abilities, that's how you get people to... use all of their Abilities.

You, I like you, you get it.

All of the above is the summation of my entire conversation with AlphaHorsman on the matter. His point is freedom of choice while in the same vein thinking it is okay for other people in the mission to be unable to participate in a manner of their choosing DUE TO THE SPAM HE SUPPORTS.

He supports exploiting a flawed system to the fullest.

When balance is brought up he states it is completely possible to do the same amounts of damage or more with guns citing Paris Primes potential 100k damage against a SINGLE target(sans Shred) vs his measly 3k RJ on Excal(of course he fails to mention the aimbot nature, infinite targets and 50m radius) oh and the ability to do this every 1.5 seconds. Thus hiding the clear imbalance we point out. He then states that Ults are supposed to be more powerful than everything in the game(ignoring for the moment the basic ideal that ults are supposed to be a oh sh1t button when attacked by a horde of enemies and you have no choice, not a win button to be spammed constantly)

He then tells said individuals the onus to leave the mission is theirs when said spam is the problem in the first place.

Unfortunately it is a never ending vicious cycle.

Go look at that other response I just posted in the other thread.

You realize the effectiveness of the power, or I should say the total damage, IS DEPENDENT on how many targets you hit? IF YOU'RE SPAMMING THE BLOODY POWERS THAT KILL EVERYTHING, WHAT'S THE POINT WHEN EVERYTHING IS DEAD AFTER THE FIRST SHOT? Not to mention, yes, that 3k on my Avalanche is dependent on how many people I hit, and also dependent on their armor and resistance. My guns can out DPS any power in the game. I REALIZE that AoE Nuke Skills that hit an area, HAVE THE POTENTIAL to do more damage than guns TOTAL, but guns have are the top dog for single-target DPS, even multiple targets with Shred and/or innate punch through.

HOW people use their powers and WHAT they should be used for is dependent on the players. NOT from another player telling them when/how they should use them. If the idea you stated of a nuke is how you think of it, then sure, you can use it that way, no one telling you that you can't.

taiiat · January 15, 2015

we need to stop focusing on the wrong thing.

let's make sure all Abilities are worth casting and can have useful applications in Combat (Ability Synergy is always nice) first.

then after that we'll see if there's still any 'need' to 'nerf' AoE Nukes. which we might have a bit of a call for, but save that for later, it's less important.

make sure no Ability is pointless and can argue it's worth of use well, and clamp on Energy more than none, and then we'll be cooking.

Azawarau · January 15, 2015

-Stuff-

Your boltor prime cant clear every enemy in every direction for 60 meters and stun them repeatedly

Thats a bad example

Guns arent near the level of powers

This is excluding the fact that guns cany bypass all walls and objects,hit in every direction,hit 20-60 meters in every direcion,stunlock enemies,

Or that they have to be aimed,reloaded,and leave you more open to hits because of lack of stun

If you think youve made ay kind of point youre living n your own world

"And you, Azarawau, don't even dare start calling me names when you just lost that argument by stating we are telling you to go and do those things."

Where did someone tell you not to spam powers exactly? Me specifically? Without reason? With malicious intent? Arent you making this a little too personal? Painting me as the bad guy instead of proving your point? Obligatory "Umad"?

Chill out

You havnt made a point at all

You literally just said guns are as good as powers at trivializing the game

Thats a joke

Find a gun that slows by 75% or that wipes a map at the push of a button alone then well talk about trivializing

TwiceDead · January 15, 2015

THERE ARE RESTRICTIONS TO OUR POWERS! NOT ALL POWERS ARE NUKES! The very nature of our powers limits them. Not all of them deal damage, some have good utility, some have bad, some just don't have utility/cc outright. A Loki can't use Radial Disarm and blow the whole area up. A Frost can't use Avalanche and expect his enemies to go flying. The very nature of our powers limits their possibility of use, that, in and of itself, is a restriction.

Not to mention the restrictions that come in when modding. You want to use Fleeting? Well you're gonna lose out on your duration. You know what, I'll just copy and paste my response to Genin here:

Just to prove you wrong, I am going to detail for you that you actually don't lose out on any duration when you use Corrupted Efficiency builds.

The math:

To back up my argument let's use Loki's invisibility as an example.

Usually it costs 50 to cast, and lasts 12 seconds. That means you get 0.24 seconds of duration per 1 energy point spent. (12/50=0.24)

Now say I'm using...

Fleeting Rank 4 = -40% Duration, +40% Efficiency.

Streamline Max = +30% Efficiency

Total efficiency: +70%. Total duration: -40%.

This lowers the energy cost down to 15, and the duration down to 7.2.

Now let's do the same math again... You have a 15 cost activation, and a 7.2 second duration, that means you get 0.48 seconds per energy point spent. (7.2/15=0.48)

Now let's say Loki has 150 energy.

For 150 energy points without any mods, he get's a total of 36 seconds of effective invisibility. (0.24x150=36)

For 150 energy points With the 70% efficiency build, he get's a total of 72 seconds of effective invisibility. (0.48x150=72)

So in conclusion, you actually don't lose out on duration when using corrupted efficiency builds after-all. Adding even one duration mod by this point to off-set fleeting would extend your total duration drastically.

Let's say I add continuity to the corrupted efficiency build:

Fleeting Rank 4 = -40% Duration, +40% Efficiency.

Streamline Max = +30% Efficiency

Total efficiency: +70%. Total Duration: -10%.

Invisibility duration: 10.8 seconds.
Cost: 15
Duration per 1 Energy point = 0.72

(10.8/15=0.72)

As before, Loki has 150 energy to spend.

150 Energy Points * 0.72 = 108
He gets 108 seconds of total invisibility duration for 150 energy. What was the previous number? 72? So basically you just bought yourself another 36 seconds of total duration to your invisibility, thanks to one continuity.

To get another perspective on it, if you had not used a corrupted efficiency build and added just a single continuity, you'd only gain an additional 10.8 seconds of total duration from a single continuity, which totals out on 46.8 seconds. (36+10.8)

IN CONCLUSION: You actually don't lose any total duration length when you use a corrupted efficiency build, the only minor inconvenience to follow is that you have to spam your abilities more, which is what you're already doing anyway when you're running a corrupted efficiency build.

This means that I can ignore commenting this:

high efficiency is a way some people build. Some people go for it, some people don't. It depends on the players themselves and the missions they're going into. Without a detrimental balancing factor? If you go full efficiency, you lose 60% of your duration if you max Fleeting, or 50% if you go Fleeting and near max Streamline. How the heck is that not a balancing factor? Not to mention a player could add in a duration mod to try and help offset this, and even maxed out Continuity or Constitution doesn't do that. In tandem they could, but you use up 2 slots to try and offset the detriment of Fleeting. Only other mod that can actually offset this withoutbeing a Corrupted mod is Primed Continuity, of which not everyone has, and is a Vay Hek of a lot harder to rank 9 to fully offset a near max Fleeting. Max out Fleeting, and even that mod couldn't do it. Your other option is Narrow Minded, of which also gives you a detriment as a balancing factor. SO you lose not only duration, but to shore it up, you use Narrow Minded to try and offset it, but you lose Range as well.

If you use regular mods, you can't fully offset Fleeting, or if you do it'll cost you 2 slots that could've been used for QoL mods or Duration mods. If you actually try using Corrupted Mods, you lose Range in exchange for Duration. You could slap stretch on there, but here you go, using 2 mod slots AGAIN to try and offset ONE detriment! SO PLEASE, ENOUGH WITH THE NO BALANCING FACTOR!

NO ONE is forcing you to go the Corrupted Efficiency route. Some people may consider it the META, but that doesn't mean it's right. The Defense Frost build I run goes for extended duration, power strength, and armor. I can't use Fleeting Expertise because it negates all of that. It gives me the power to lockdown the defense objective and ensure that my shield stays up strong, even in endless content. My Stealth Ash build goes for extended duration, I can't use Fleeting because that defeats the purpose. Loki Stealth builds as well. It isn't forced, you aren't a dead-beat, everyone can bring something to the table, just because it isn't exactly your own style doesn't mean it can't contribute. If people look down on a player by playing a certain way, that doesn't mean they should be forced to play differently. They have the opportunity to show those players that their builds function and do the job just as good as theirs, and I hope they do. If those players want to look down on those that don't run high efficiency, you could just leave and not deal with them. Report them for abuse. It isn't the fault of their builds, it's the persons own ego to say something like that to someone else.

Actually I just proved to you with hard cold numbers why corrupted efficiency builds as the meta IS ACTUALLY correct if you want the most out of your energy-pool.

Using snowglobe as your example of an efficiency build gone bad due to minus duration is actually not an example i'd use. You want Snowglobe to be spammable and have a short duration, since when you start hitting T4's that shield doesn't last much longer than 10 seconds anyway, where your primary focus will be to rely on the initial 4 seconds of snowglobe invulnerability rather than the entire duration of snowglobe itself.

If I were to use an example of an efficiency build gone bad, I'd use something like Limbo, since all his abilities are duration based and his Cataclysm's shrink rate is directly tied to duration, but even he doesn't suffer much because most of his abilities have a 20+ duration length, which is easily rectified with a single continuity to push it back to those numbers, and before the Cataclysm toggle, he would actually benefit from a negative duration build. There are examples of more frames who benefit from negative duration builds, such as Nyx.

Your inability to see that you don't even need to nuke is saddening. You don't even have to use nuking powers. You have your guns, you have your other powers, and you have your squad. NO ONE said you need to nuke, (unless your team requests it) you have the choice to use your nuke, or your guns, or your powers. BEFORE ANYONE says nukes are more powerful, remember that the total damage of a nuke is dependent on not ONLY your build, but the number of targets affected in the area. So sure, you can nuke the area, but if the total damage was 3k to a target, then it may not have been worth it. If you nuke and there's 15 targets in the area, good job, you just hit all targets individually for 45k, with damage to each being 3k. (Depending on Armor and resistances). My Paris Prime can shoot a Heavy Gunner in the Void for 40k WITHOUT red crits, that's a Hek of a lot higher DPS. Overall damage to a group, a strength build nuke can do the job, but an end-tier weapon will make sure the thing you're aiming at is dead the moment you click your mouse. There's some math for you.

"Just because it's there doesn't mean you have to use it" is not an argument, it's a plea that asks me to completely ignore its existence. Now how can I do that? When in every game I play there is at least one who just rushes through a level and presses the button.

Let's use exterminate as an example. There's a limited number of enemies, and I don't get to kill any of them because I am playing Limbo, and a Saryn is coptering ahead pressing one button that instantly kills everyone. If I am lucky, I might be able to get one or two stragglers, but that's as far as my involvement in the match goes. You keep preaching for player choice, well I chose to play Limbo and I don't have massive radial nukes, so I guess I will simply not get to see the enemies then because hey, I CHOSE LIMBO. My fault for utilizing my freedom of choice with differed from the norm, isn't it? Starting to see the problem yet?

Besides that, you can't compare single-target DPS versus massive radial nuke abilties.

The former requires you to actively acquire your target and accurately hit them in repeated succession as they go down, while you do that you have to dodge bullets and ensure you have escape routes since you'll be actively participating in battle.

With the latter, you can hide behind cover completely safe from harm, press one button and affect every enemy in(and out of)sight as long as they are within a 25m radius.

Which one do you think requires the most effort? And hence justifies the single-target DPS it gets? The former certainly does, the latter does not.

I'm presenting my argument with subjectivity, it doesn't mean I'm wrong. Bias? Oh really? I'm biased for saying I like having the freedom to choose how I use my tools and when to use my tools? Oh, Ok. Just because you apparently don't like being emotionally involved in the argument doesn't mean you've got something better than me. It doesn't weaken my argument. In your eyes? Sure, think whatever in the blue hell you think. But I stand by my argument.

It's not about being emotionally invested, it's about backing up your arguments.

I like this game, that makes me emotionally invested and I want to see the game change for the better. Be as emotionally invested as you like, I am not going to hold that against you at all.

But you have to start backing up your arguments with something other than "It's there but you don't have to use it."

That's like saying the pizza-dressing is over there and it will make this pizza infinitely more tasty, but I don't have to use it...

Thing is that this pizza-dressing is too good to pass up on, SO OFCOURSE I USE IT AND I WOULD BE A FOOL NOT TO!

Afterall everybody else is already using it, why shouldn't I? I am just missing out completely because I am not using this wonderful pizza dressing. Oh there are different pizza-dressings over there but they are completely inferior, no I only need this one because it's objectively the best, and not only subjectively.

Are you starting to see the problem with this so-called argument?

Edited January 15, 2015 by TwiceDead

AlphaHorseman · January 15, 2015

we need to stop focusing on the wrong thing.

let's make sure all Abilities are worth casting and can have useful applications in Combat (Ability Synergy is always nice) first.

then after that we'll see if there's still any 'need' to 'nerf' AoE Nukes. which we might have a bit of a call for, but save that for later, it's less important.

make sure no Ability is pointless and can argue it's worth of use well, and clamp on Energy more than none, and then we'll be cooking.

Sure, I can agree to that.

What everyone else doesn't realize is that a system wide change doesn't just affect those "p42w" players they keep yammering on about, it affects every Warframe in the game, and every play style that utilizes it (or doesn't). We ALL suffer the consequences of a clam down on powers, casters feel it more, those p42w guys get whacked, and even those who like their guns lose out too. Punishing the entire system for the actions of a few isn't how things should be done.

Your boltor prime cant clear every enemy in every direction for 60 meters and stun them repeatedly

Thats a bad example

Guns arent near the level of powers

This is excluding the fact that guns cany bypass all walls and objects,hit in every direction,hit 20-60 meters in every direcion,stunlock enemies,

Or that they have to be aimed,reloaded,and leave you more open to hits because of lack of stun

If you think youve made ay kind of point youre living n your own world

"And you, Azarawau, don't even dare start calling me names when you just lost that argument by stating we are telling you to go and do those things."

Where did someone tell you not to spam powers exactly? Me specifically? Without reason? With malicious intent? Arent you making this a little too personal? Painting me as the bad guy instead of proving your point? Obligatory "Umad"?

Chill out

You havnt made a point at all

You literally just said guns are as good as powers at trivializing the game

Thats a joke

Find a gun that slows by 75% or that wipes a map at the push of a button alone then well talk about trivializing

My guns can clear whole rooms, not in a radius like powers, BUT THAT'S BECAUSE it's a gun. You can hit for 40k on a SINGLE TARGET with a Paris Prime crit build, or higher, without red crits. Not to mention you get innate punch through. You get a bit of CC because of that. No power can focus that much damage into itself. OVERALL, sure, a power can be able to hit that level of damage, if it can hit enough targets. But a gun can do that outright. Am I saying the gun is bad? Should it be nerfed? No, because that's how I built the gun, to be ABLE to do that. Guns can rip apart anything in their sights far longer than powers can. Sure, you can keep trying to whack on that power button, but it isn't going to do that much damage when enemies can survive like that. Not to mention you're also vulnerable during the entire casting animation.

Not all radial powers have stun lock, and even some that do even stun lock the caster. Frost's Avalanche, Mag's Crush, to name some of the worst.

You're saying "Yeah, this system should limit the use of powers" essentially, when I'm a guy that likes to be using my powers. I may not go for the Radial Javelin build like some people do, but I like having the slash dash super jump combo mixed in with a radial blind and finishing everything off with a Javelin scene. To me that's fun. That's enjoyable. I'm not just spamming one power, I'm using them all because I like being a caster. And a system that limits my usage of powers isn't something I'm going to advocate for, it's something I'll stand stoutly against.

Oh don't start with the reload, you unload that clip of whatever end-tier gun you're using and nothing in your sights is going to survive. I'm comparing end-tier guns here because you're describing the effects of some end-tier powers.

And yeah, guns have the exact same potential to trivialize the game. Difference is which button you press. Enemies will either die by your radial powers, or if they don't you just raise your gun and they'll be decimated. You could even just not use the power and rip apart anything that comes in sight with the gun. Or you can continually cast the power(s) until there's nothing left. I'm not saying it's wrong, because that's the point of us gaining all that power. We become powerful. We're SUPPOSED to be able to do that, if we so choose to build for it.

Ah yep, I've made my point. If you don't want to see it, that's all you.

If you're using Nova as an example, realize that BOTH her AMD and ult rely on damage of weapons to be useful? You need your AMD to be hit with bullets in order for it to apply that damage to units around it when it blows up. You need something else outside of her ult in order to set off the explosions. Be it a gun, blade, or someone else using their powers. It's like Nyx, she needs damage applied to her ult in order for her ult to actually dish out some super harsh damage.

You also realize you can mod for ice damage? Oh, and I think the Glaxion can slow proc enemies or even freeze them in place. :)

Just to prove you wrong, I am going to detail for you that you actually don't lose out on any duration when you use Corrupted Efficiency builds.

The math:

To back up my argument let's use Loki's invisibility as an example.

Usually it costs 50 to cast, and lasts 12 seconds. That means you get 0.24 seconds of duration per 1 energy point spent. (12/50=0.24)

Now say I'm using...

Fleeting Rank 4 = -40% Duration, +40% Efficiency.

Streamline Max = +30% Efficiency

Total efficiency: +70%. Total duration: -40%.

This lowers the energy cost down to 15, and the duration down to 7.2.

Now let's do the same math again... You have a 15 cost activation, and a 7.2 second duration, that means you get 0.48 seconds per energy point spent. (7.2/15=0.48)

Now let's say Loki has 150 energy.

For 150 energy points without any mods, he get's a total of 36 seconds of effective invisibility. (0.24x150=36)

For 150 energy points With the 70% efficiency build, he get's a total of 72 seconds of effective invisibility. (0.48x150=72)

So in conclusion, you actually don't lose out on duration when using corrupted efficiency builds after-all. Adding even one duration mod by this point to off-set fleeting would extend your total duration drastically.

Let's say I add continuity to the corrupted efficiency build:

Fleeting Rank 4 = -40% Duration, +40% Efficiency.

Streamline Max = +30% Efficiency

Total efficiency: +70%. Total Duration: -10%.

Invisibility duration: 10.8 seconds.

Cost: 15

Duration per 1 Energy point = 0.72

(10.8/15=0.72)

As before, Loki has 150 energy to spend.

150 Energy Points * 0.72 = 108

He gets 108 seconds of total invisibility duration for 150 energy. What was the previous number? 72? So basically you just bought yourself another 36 seconds of total duration to your invisibility, thanks to one continuity.

To get another perspective on it, if you had not used a corrupted efficiency build and added just a single continuity, you'd only gain an additional 10.8 seconds of total duration from a single continuity, which totals out on 46.8 seconds. (36+10.8)

IN CONCLUSION: You actually don't lose any total duration length when you use a corrupted efficiency build, the only minor inconvenience to follow is that you have to spam your abilities more, which is what you're already doing anyway when you're running a corrupted efficiency build.

This means that I can ignore commenting this:

Actually I just proved to you with hard cold numbers why corrupted efficiency builds as the meta IS ACTUALLY correct if you want the most out of your energy-pool.

Using snowglobe as your example of an efficiency build gone bad due to minus duration is actually not an example i'd use. You want Snowglobe to be spammable and have a short duration, since when you start hitting T4's that shield doesn't last much longer than 10 seconds anyway, where your primary focus will be to rely on the initial 4 seconds of snowglobe invulnerability rather than the entire duration of snowglobe itself.

If I were to use an example of an efficiency build gone bad, I'd use something like Limbo, since all his abilities are duration based and his Cataclysm's shrink rate is directly tied to duration, but even he doesn't suffer much because most of his abilities have a 20+ duration length, which is easily rectified with a single continuity to push it back to those numbers, and before the Cataclysm toggle, he would actually benefit from a negative duration build. There are examples of more frames who benefit from negative duration builds, such as Nyx.

"Just because it's there doesn't mean you have to use it" is not an argument, it's a plea that asks me to completely ignore its existence. Now how can I do that? When in every game I play there is at least one who just rushes through a level and presses the button.

Let's use exterminate as an example. There's a limited number of enemies, and I don't get to kill any of them because I am playing Limbo, and a Saryn is coptering ahead pressing one button that instantly kills everyone. If I am lucky, I might be able to get one or two stragglers, but that's as far as my involvement in the match goes. You keep preaching for player choice, well I chose to play Limbo and I don't have massive radial nukes, so I guess I will simply not get to see the enemies then because hey, I CHOSE LIMBO. My fault for utilizing my freedom of choice with differed from the norm, isn't it? Starting to see the problem yet?

Besides that, you can't compare single-target DPS versus massive radial nuke abilties.

The former requires you to actively acquire your target and accurately hit them in repeated succession as they go down, while you do that you have to dodge bullets and ensure you have escape routes since you'll be actively participating in battle.

With the latter, you can hide behind cover completely safe from harm, press one button and affect every enemy in(and out of)sight as long as they are within a 25m radius.