Energy 2.0: The Anti-4 To Win And A Bit Of Balancing

[ArcanumElite]

I just want them to make psychic bolts from nyx worth using and for nyx its 3 to win not 4 to win....

[geninrising]

How did cooldowns fail?

 

Don't tell me people sat in a room, waiting for "4" to recharge...

Actually yes. 4 people would walk into a room press 4, wait until recharge then go to the next room and press 4 all over again.

There was however a benefit to that system. If an individual did not want to play that way they could run ahead and kill things while people waited to exploit a broken power system.

 

The problem with that system was the fact that it was imbalanced towards gunplay unless the team agreed to wait out cooldowns.

 

What we need a completely balanced system that allows all players at all times to play how they want WITHOUT forcing any player to stand around and do nothing.

 

Powers are a truly awesome aspect of WF and as I have been reminded by AlphaHorseman on many occasions we should be free to unleash our inner Wizard, however at the same time we need to ensure that the Wizards don't make the "Archers" completely worthless. Currently there is not a viable consensus that anyone involved has been able to come up with.

 

p42w players feel entitled to being able to just happily melt everything along the way with no energy/cooldown types of restrictions(which clearly currently has the detrimental effect on players that don't wish to use powers constantly).

 

Whereas gun and melee users just want to be able to play period. Something has to change but there is no general agreement as to how to do this.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

All roads lead to Fleeting Expertise. My solutions would be:

1. decrease maximum efficiency to 40 or 50%. Decrease ranks of efficiency mods to compensate.

2. Prevent enemies killed by or under the affects of abilities from dropping orbs. This prevents players from being able to kill 25 enemies with an ultimate, grab the 2-4 orbs they need, and then use the ultimate again.

[420degreequicksopeswag]

The cooldown system worked fine in Mass effect 3.

Taking a look at he adept and engineer, 2 caster classes,

Abilities were not always effective on their own; a combination of two or more powers led to a combo explosion, dealing significant damage.

 

For example: 

 

Warp: With the exception of low level enemies, this... could not kill anything on its own.

Throw: Funny against low level enemies, but, again, not too good on its own.

 

Warp+Throw=biotic explosion. Enourmous sum of damage in AOE.

 

Same thing with overload+incinerate.

 

What we are looking at here is something known as

 

KIT SYNERGY.  Something that is sorely needed for caster frames and ability kits in general.(ember)

 

The "4" mechanic kills kit synergy. Why bother with your other three abilities when you can clear the room in one button, for a total of less energy?

 

(not to mention there was no "4" ability in mass effect)

 

Another thing, Mass effect 3 clearly draws the line between caster and gunz-blazing classes. Stronger weapons had a habit of being heavier, increasing recharge times. 

 

Therefore, casters relied on powers instead of their pistols

Soldiers relied on the big guns, with assistance from powers.

 

So far, the balancing system appears to portray that all warframes are split between caster/gunfighter/melee.

 

 

In conclusion:

4 mechanic needs tweaking or removal for the sake of kit synergy

balance strong weapons like soma+boltor prime with a stat that influences abilities

Lean frames toward certain niches, such as caster, gunfighter, or melee man. Analogy: Ember/, Mesa, Valkyr. (A few should be mixed)

[geninrising]

The cooldown system worked fine in Mass effect 3.

Taking a look at he adept and engineer, 2 caster classes,

Abilities were not always effective on their own; a combination of two or more powers led to a combo explosion, dealing significant damage.

 

For example: 

 

Warp: With the exception of low level enemies, this... could not kill anything on its own.

Throw: Funny against low level enemies, but, again, not too good on its own.

 

Warp+Throw=biotic explosion. Enourmous sum of damage in AOE.

 

Same thing with overload+incinerate.

 

What we are looking at here is something known as

 

KIT SYNERGY.  Something that is sorely needed for caster frames and ability kits in general.(ember)

 

The "4" mechanic kills kit synergy. Why bother with your other three abilities when you can clear the room in one button, for a total of less energy?

 

(not to mention there was no "4" ability in mass effect)

 

Another thing, Mass effect 3 clearly draws the line between caster and gunz-blazing classes. Stronger weapons had a habit of being heavier, increasing recharge times. 

 

Therefore, casters relied on powers instead of their pistols

Soldiers relied on the big guns, with assistance from powers.

 

So far, the balancing system appears to portray that all warframes are split between caster/gunfighter/melee.

 

 

In conclusion:

4 mechanic needs tweaking or removal for the sake of kit synergy

balance strong weapons like soma+boltor prime with a stat that influences abilities

Lean frames toward certain niches, such as caster, gunfighter, or melee man. Analogy: Ember/, Mesa, Valkyr. (A few should be mixed)

 

The problem is that the ME games entire mechanic system had not been tinkered with to death and enemy spawns/health were properly balanced to make powers in that game inclusive to handling situations and not powerful enough to resort only to them to handle your every need.

In this game however powers have been made into something that you can use EXCLUSIVELY to execute our enemies.

 

I love the idea of synergy as long as it is implemented in a way to produce both damaging effects and additional utility.

One problem comes to mid when dealing with this though, what is to stop players from just continuing to abuse the energy loopholes in game?

 

If we place a hard regen on energy(ie: unable to be effected by energy vamp type effects or energy restores) it COULD alleviate the spam, however we COULD end up putting players behind a wall of insurmountable enemies.

 

If we place hard CD on abilities we could also force players into untenable situations.

This is currently the crux of DE's problem with fixing this issue.

 

They are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

[Azawarau]

We tried cool downs in closed beta, that wasn't fun for anybody and it was exploited quickly.

 

For the energy bars thing, that sounds a bit too complicated to implement. Not to mention it limits the availability of all powers to a certain extent. Sometimes players might need that ult if they hop into a situation where the other 3 wouldn't do it. Limiting them to gun play shouldn't be how its decided, they should be able to use guns, melee, and powers at their discretion. Not all ultimates function the same, however, as each has its own drawbacks and benefits simply by design.

How were they exploited?

 

@OP

 

If we get super bars instead ultimates need to be much more powerful than they already are to make up the difference in use and reward for saving for the right time

 

Also various 1-3s need to be adjuseted,buffed, or outright changed to suit the loss of a regularly usable ability

 

A primed example of this would be Nova (AhaHhaHaHahahAHaHa) whos CC and main damage dealer are all wrapped into one

[rockscl]

 

Separate power bars

Let's explain how this would work:

1. There would be effectively be a "Mana pool" which powers 1, 2, and 3 used as well as channelling, and a "super meter" which 4 pulled from

2. The "Mana Pool" would regenerate naturally. This rate could be increased with Energy Siphon and would still fill up from orbs

3. The "Super Meter" however wouldn't move, instead acting like the current energy bar does

4. Channeled strikes and powers would also fill up the Super Meter (not at the rate of Energy Orbs, but still)

5. These power bars would be affected by the current mods to influence their lengths. In other words, your super meter wouldn't necessarily empty after one usage if you were modded right.

 

 

People isnt even reading your idea, it sounds interesting

 

As for skills like iron skin, the very usage of it should add to the meter, even if its not all polished, seems like a good chance to transform ultimates into the very encouragement to use the rest of the skills

 

DE should take a look at this

 

 

 

 

edit: cooldowns werent exploited, people just awaited for their cds, making missions last a lot longer instead of using the rest of the kit to move on

Edited January 9, 2015 by rockscl

[7grims]

But is DE buffing the enemies in reponse to power spam or is power spam happening because DE buffed the enemies? The former seems more likely as ulti spam has been here before nullifiers and eximus and all that. Hek, the game was so easy in open beta(imo) and people still played how they do now for the most part.

What doesn't make sense is why DE introduced such powerful ways to virtually have infinite energy such as cheap restores and fleeting expertise (and perhaps even a primed streamline soon) yet have clearly taken a stance against power spam or 'press 4 to win buttons'. Lack of foresight created the problem and now they are reinventing the wheel to try and and solve it. Trinity and her long list of tweaks wholeheartedly embodies this.

 

Very true, I also see the origin of all this on fleeting expertise, it was that day the game changed.

It became so much better and fun.

 

Yet this created problems, and DE hasn't really addressed them, and yet they keep trowing more over-the-top crazy stuff that allow more spam, although I dont see the spam as that much problematic, but I do see they nerfing as response to this, very problematic.

 

Yah, trin got hit very very hard, idk how the players look at blessing, an ULTIMATE ability, and still call that a ultimate, its so bad, it probably wouldn't even qualify to be a 3rd ability.

[7grims]

The point of the thread isn't to nerf this strategy, it's to encourage people to develop other strategies by introducing them to the other abilities in a way that doesn't sabatoge what appears in the early game to be the win button.

 

The problem with these treads is DE gets aware of the problem (they already are very aware), as there are more and more like it.

And they only are replying in a limited bad way, nerfing frames and their abilities.

 

But, not blaming you here, you are entitled to give feedback and even suggestions.

Edited January 9, 2015 by 7grims

[CY13ERPUNK]

I actually kind of like these suggestions a lot, though I share concern that certain #1 powers could be a little overpowered to be used without energy.

 

The innate energy regen cap could help leave gunplay very viable, but I'm still not 100% on having the ULT on the same system. My concern is that it could still cause energy hording on longer missions with more enemies (like Invasion).

 

Still, this could get players to use their powers more on quicker missions, and lead to people willing to experiment in them rather than simply rushing.

 

i really think there is no problem with 'energy hording' as ppl can play however they choose within the system i proposed, and that's even the whole point, if you wanted to have a bunch of energy for some ULTs, that would be required in some cases (maybe not all, depending on mods and whatnot)

 

and of course like i said, some #1's would have to be adjusted to not be 'OP' with them being free to use

 

#1 abilites that do not require a target (i.e. slash dash) would allow 1 wf to build up energy all the time while another cannot. I really like this premise but I think that keeping the first ability free is already enough and doesn't suffer from the aforementioned issue.

 

im sure this could easily be addressed by adusting the amount of energy given by each ability (things like slash dash could be set to only build energy based on enemies hit for example)

[Phoenix86]

[ The point of this isn't "Grr. People are just using power 4 on this game," but "How can we get them to use 1-3 more often while still enjoying 4?"]

 

 

Make them actually usefull and do different things from #4 could be a good thing to start with.

 

In this game none is ever going to use a "lower version" of anything once they have unlocked the "higher one"

 

Why should i use a single dmg ability if i can wipe the room?

Why should i use a movement ability if i can copter?

Why should i use a CC if i can outright kill everyone?

Why should i use a buff or a debuff if it's not needed and i can wipe everyone?

 

Some skills come into play later because of that,

some skills are never used because are crap or useless,

some skills are never used because other mechanics do what they do better, without spending energy.

[Mr.Lube]

Abilities are half of the game and they don't need to be nerfed out of use. This is ridiculous.

 

No support. -1

I don't agree with the cooldown option since some abilities need to be sustained, but the "super bar" is a good idea in my opinion. Using the "super bar" wouldn't nerf abilities out of use, but encourage players to wait for the right moment to use their ultimate. I completely support the second option on this thread.

[geninrising]

I am still absolutely against power spam.

 

I have heard arguments that if you remove power spam from the game you remove a players entire choice from the game.

 

How can anyone logically support the fact that ability spam prevents other players from actually being able to utilize all the other tools in our arsenal?

The fact of the matter is that a large portion of our population cannot even play the game at all as it stands DUE to POWER SPAM DIRECTLY.

 

That is the equivalent of players being given an all powerful nuclear war head that can melt whole rooms with infinite ammo.

If this mechanic seems broken, realize that many frames already carry this weapon around with them and it's name is 4.

 

No one should be able to choose if another player can participate in a mission or not and this is exactly what we are seeing constantly.

There is no reason this should not be addressed as it is for the overall welfare of the game.

[CY13ERPUNK]

Make them actually usefull and do different things from #4 could be a good thing to start with.

 

In this game none is ever going to use a "lower version" of anything once they have unlocked the "higher one"

 

Why should i use a single dmg ability if i can wipe the room?

Why should i use a movement ability if i can copter?

Why should i use a CC if i can outright kill everyone?

Why should i use a buff or a debuff if it's not needed and i can wipe everyone?

 

Some skills come into play later because of that,

some skills are never used because are crap or useless,

some skills are never used because other mechanics do what they do better, without spending energy.

 

yep, all valid points

 

I am still absolutely against power spam.

 

I have heard arguments that if you remove power spam from the game you remove a players entire choice from the game.

 

How can anyone logically support the fact that ability spam prevents other players from actually being able to utilize all the other tools in our arsenal?

The fact of the matter is that a large portion of our population cannot even play the game at all as it stands DUE to POWER SPAM DIRECTLY.

 

That is the equivalent of players being given an all powerful nuclear war head that can melt whole rooms with infinite ammo.

If this mechanic seems broken, realize that many frames already carry this weapon around with them and it's name is 4.

 

No one should be able to choose if another player can participate in a mission or not and this is exactly what we are seeing constantly.

There is no reason this should not be addressed as it is for the overall welfare of the game.

 

this is exactly why i was so sad that Excal's RadJav was made to be more like the other #4 dmg nuke ULTs, it is now less unique and more generic =[ ; i was hoping that DE would instead go in the opposite direction and design most ULTs with some form of tgt caps and/or diminishing returns, still allowing them to scale well with mods and to still be powerful, but not the boring #press4towin that they are atm

[letir]

Power spam must die, and cooldowns is most proper way for what.

[ZukaBazuka]

So you want to go down the path of every other mmo out there? That put a massive colddown on spells just because they are powerful? All I see here is "I want people to use their guns instead of powers". Not many 4 skill are that powerful. While they might offer CC they don't offer damage that scales with levels. So we have to rely on our weapons once again when damage is to low.

 

A lot of the first level skills only do maximum of 500 at max level. That is 1 bullet on any high level weapon or more. Only reason we see excalibur is because he is one of the most efficient at it and has the damage to do it. Other frames don't . You wanna destroy all other frames because 1 frame working with trinity. Very few skills actually match the damage on some of the ulti, some are actually better than their 4th skill. Some ulti are just lack luster in terms of damage and CC.

[420degreequicksopeswag]

So you want to go down the path of every other mmo out there? That put a massive colddown on spells just because they are powerful? All I see here is "I want people to use their guns instead of powers". Not many 4 skill are that powerful. While they might offer CC they don't offer damage that scales with levels. So we have to rely on our weapons once again when damage is to low.

 

The scaling problem is a whole nother can of beans and needs its own thread to be fixed. I am against scaling in mission and more for stronger units replacing weak ones.

 

(Lancer->Elite lancer->Commander?)

 

Edit: I think its can of worms.

Edited January 11, 2015 by 420degreequicksopeswag

[inappropriatename5818]

Another one of these? I'll let you in on a little secret. Not many people know this, so make sure you don't tell anyone, but you actually don't have to spam abilities if you don't want to.   

I know, crazy right?? But it's true, you don't have to run max efficiency and spam 4. So instead of trying to ruin it for people that like that you can just unequip efficiency and pretend you're playing any other generic shooter ;)

[inappropriatename5818]

Another one of these? I'll let you in on a little secret. Not many people know this, so make sure you don't tell anyone, but you actually don't have to spam abilities if you don't want to.   

I know, crazy right?? But it's true, you don't have to run max efficiency and spam 4. So instead of trying to ruin it for people that like that you can just unequip efficiency and pretend you're playing any other generic shooter ;)

[420degreequicksopeswag]

I have an idea

 

Remove the fourth ability

[inappropriatename5818]

I have an idea

 

Remove the fourth ability

 

1. Remove all abilities   

2. Make it first person  

3. Add killstreaks   

4. ...?   

5. OP is happy?

[420degreequicksopeswag]

1. Remove all abilities   

2. Make it first person  

3. Add killstreaks   

4. ...?   

5. OP is happy?

Sounds a little too much like call of duty.

[inappropriatename5818]

Sounds a little too much like call of duty.

 

 

That's what I'm getting out of these posts. It's called warFRAME for a reason. People keep whining about FRAME powers being "OP", like they are forced to use them.   

 

So let's do what they want, rename it to WARGUN and we'll be another generic boring shooter, because using super powers that the game is based on obviously doesn't suit people?

[climatiseur]

My suggestion:

 

Only for ultimates :

 

If the ability is repeatedly casted within a certain time, the power of the ability will keep decreasing unless another interval has been passed.The time interval will increase every time the ultimate is recasted within the time.

 

EG: Let's say the initial time interval is 20 seconds.  And let's use Radial Javelin (RJ) as an example.

 

If RJ is recasted within 20 seconds at one point, this time all the effect of it will have a 10% reduction. (Damage, range, and stun effects if there is any etc) Also, the next time interval become 25 seconds.

 

If RJ is recasted again within the next 25 seconds. all the effects of it will deducted by 30 %, and the interval for next time will become 30. And this repeat. The minimum cap of the ability could get is 70% reduction.

 

If RJ is not recasted with in the time interval, it is reset to normal - 100% full strength in all perspective and the time interval will be reset to 20 again.

 

The initial time interval can be adjusted according to the nature of the ultimate / skills eg. RJ could be 20 s, while Vauban's vortex could be 15s due to it's nature and effects' different. (just my interpretation) Abilities like Catalysm may have no limited time interval as it cannot be recast while in effect and hence cannot be spammed.

 

--

 

Alternatively, if reducing power of abilities is not preferable, it can be Increasing energy cost. eg. +10 %  ...+ 30% (OF the maximum energy / the original energy cost  ie do not affected by streamline etc) if recasted within time interval. So ultimately the ultimate will always cost 100% energy to cast if repeatedly casting within time interval

 

Note: I don't suggest it to be applied on survival / interception / excavation etc missions due to the nature of those missions.

 

For defense, I think the time interval can be reset in every new wave. (NOT every 5 waves)

Edited January 11, 2015 by climatiseur

[Jeetza]

The powers are fine how they are. If I wanted a different system, i'd play another game.