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Could You Try And Tackle That Big Cow First? - Removing Serration


Innocent_Flower
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Ok, then mr. Negative:

1) Well, shame that you think that way about more balanced numbers. The fact that it helps newcomers (since they aren't left out of so much damage) didn't cross your mind? Or you simply don't care about a healthier, more balanced and newbie-friendlier game? If you don't, then, to quote the red veil: "You have become part of the problem".

 

2) The physical damage mods are a whole different story: They only get affected by said physical damagetype AND have lower numbers. If they worked like elemental mods (boosted by the whole basedamage) and got more equal values to elemental ones, they would be far more useful.

 

3) Do you say the same about fire rate mods? They do effectively the same, but not as powerfully. Better yet, they still stack with fire rate mods. And bigger magazine mods have much lower numbers, thus safer, yes, but far less powerful. Also, magazine mods don't affect your BURST dps, only your sustained.

 

4) Compleeeeetely ignoring the fact that a freeshot proc is indirectly equal to these mods, all at once: Magsize increase and thus gets higher sustained dps (mag lasts longer), max ammo increaser, BOTH for your reserves AND the magazine (540 spare bullets turn into say, 800 bullets instead), ammo scavenger (20 bullets can become worth 30 bullets) and they STACK with damageincreasing mods (you can equip both ya know?)

How would this mod be a bad mod in any way? You simply didn't think that through enough...

 

5) Wow, that's INCREDIBLY narrowminded

* First, I said utility mods that don't affect BURST dps. So fire rate wouldn't be a utility mod.

* Yes, reload, magsize and max ammo would all be nice overall. And so would ammo mutation. But they are not necessary for your burst dps, the most powerful attribute you can have and people like different kinds of utility.

* Zoom mods can be useful if you know you are gonna play a map with long ranges. But did you know that zoommods actually slightly increases your accuracy a bit while zooming? Sure, it is a very tiny amount, but it still improves it. If that secondary effect was heightened to a more noticeable amount, I bet a LOT more people would use it.

* Extra explosion range can mean a big difference for a shot to kill, say 5 or 10 enemies. So it does have an impact. Just not as easily or as powerfully as punchthrough does. But it still does a difference so neglecting it would be very stupid.

* Increased range is actually very useful for the continuous weapons. Think about the Embolist for example, you DOUBLE its range, pretty much. Sure, the mod could maybe use a bit of a buff, but it is still a great one to use, especially if you pair that with a punchthrough mod...

* Thunderbolt is a POWER mod, not utility, which needs rebalancing. It certainly is not a utility mod.

 

6) Umm... wow, so many wrong facts AGAIN:

* Multishot would still be a tremendously powerful burst dps increaser, like I said before. Combine it with freeshot and they would be similar in effect to current multishot, just requiring two modslots. Still powerful, just a bit more requiring for such tremendous power.

* Primed mods (a horrible idea in the first place) cannot be used with their regular versions, so that point is just moot.

* Freeshot would obviously never get over 100%, just like power efficiency doesn't / has a cap on it, since they are exponentially good. That would just be stupid otherwise.

 

1: I was a newbie once and the reason I kept playing was because of how much more damage I could get. In the first Guild Wars game the max damage was like 15 I believe. Just 15. Sure it was balanced as hell but I was not having fun. I was not slaughtering enemies at that point. It was boring.

In Vindictus which I have played more than Guild War just boost your skills by like 1-5% per level. I barely leveled up my skills for that reason. I saw no reason to do so other than unlocking them. Overall you never saw a difference.

 

But with Warframe? Those 90% extra damage mods for Elemental? Boy did I see a bonus and it was FUN.

 

2: If anything the normal physical damage mods should be higher than Elemental because they only affect one number. Right now they are useless on rifles the moment you get other damage mods.

 

3: No, because Fire rate makes you kill things faster. Your Multishot mechanic would reduce the damage the gun does by a lot. Also it would no longer be multishot.

 

4:  Because it works on a proc chance where as the other mods will always provide that bonus. Not to mention the normal mods will most likely take up less space than the golden free shot mod. If it gives 90% chance for it to proc you've just made all other ammo mods useless. In fact all of these mods would be useless.

 

Bigger Magazine

Extra ammo

Ammo Mutation mods.

Primed versions of those mods too.

 

There would be no reason to use any of those mods if yours procced at 90%. But if it procced at like 30% you're better off with a normal mod.

 

5: I'm not talking about increasing DPS on these mods. I'm talking about mods that would just be better than almost any other mod in that utility slot. Also you'd almost run out of utility mods for quite some time. Unless you're in Nightmare a lot or Corrupted Vaults. But for new players they would always add those mods.

 

But if Fire rate isn't a utility mod then you just throw in another mod. Maybe Puncture mod which I've forgotten. But those would never ever change. So nothing would be truly different on each gun.

 

Oh and increased range still won't make the weapons that much better. It just won't.

 

6: No, Multishot would be rather weak. I would rather throw in Fire rate or extra damage in the gun than your Multishot which only makes the gun use more bullets and fire in a burst mode.

Also how would it work on Bows? Would it fire off additional arrows? How about Ogris? Opticor? 

How would you solve the Hek Syndicate Mod?

 

For Freeshot not going over 100%. Ok then, at what % values should be at? If it's too low it's not gonna be all that fun. If it's much higher than the other Ammo mods it's gonna make them useless and would turn the mod into another Mandatory mod that you will always throw in because it'd basically mean infinitive ammo.

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The mod system is what sets warframe apart from most games with RPG elements. Simply having weapons damage increase as you rank is exactly what every other RPG does.

I distinctly remember when playing destiny that levelling the weapons felt so boring and old fashioned.

For vets, sticking serration on guns may seem predictable old hat but then so will anything after a year +

Acquiring and maxing these must have mods may be a distant memory to some of us but from speaking to new clan members it is something they are aspiring to.

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Removing serration and making mods more than just +damage =Customisation. Rather than instant kills we could have 

 

-A more in depth Status system (because there's no point in one if everything dies instantly)

-More gun customisation. Don't like a particular part of a gun? You're not forced to ignore it for more damage per shot. 

 

- Better AI could be a thing, because it wouldn't be wasted in single shots of a full auto. 

- More interesting enemy design in general, because that effort wouldn't be wasted against instant-kill full auto. 

- More teamwork, because there's no 'one player instakilling everything with his gun so the rest can carry on'. 

 

 

 

Ah, I remember when many were against removing ability mod cards altogether (I think I even wrote a thread or two advocating their removal) But that turned out for the best, right? 

 

Trust me

 

 

(I might just throw this into the OP) 

Edited by Innocent_Flower
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I rather we stick to the community consensus which we all came to a while back: Remove serration, just integrate it into all weapons, making them stronger as they increase in mastery.

Honestly, serration is required in almost every single weapon in the game. You might as well just buff all weapons to what they would be with max serration equipped and compensate all players who maxed that mod by giving them legendary cores.

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I rather we stick to the community consensus which we all came to a while back: Remove serration, just integrate it into all weapons, making them stronger as they increase in mastery.

Unless that intergration was toned down, you'd have the problem of not being able to scale down your weapon to not insta-kill everything in low teir games. Or a problem with conclave maybe. 

 

I don't mind the "buff all weapons to what they would be with max serration" too much. 

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1: I was a newbie once and the reason I kept playing was because of how much more damage I could get. In the first Guild Wars game the max damage was like 15 I believe. Just 15. Sure it was balanced as hell but I was not having fun. I was not slaughtering enemies at that point. It was boring.

In Vindictus which I have played more than Guild War just boost your skills by like 1-5% per level. I barely leveled up my skills for that reason. I saw no reason to do so other than unlocking them. Overall you never saw a difference.

 

But with Warframe? Those 90% extra damage mods for Elemental? Boy did I see a bonus and it was FUN.

 

2: If anything the normal physical damage mods should be higher than Elemental because they only affect one number. Right now they are useless on rifles the moment you get other damage mods.

 

3: No, because Fire rate makes you kill things faster. Your Multishot mechanic would reduce the damage the gun does by a lot. Also it would no longer be multishot.

 

4:  Because it works on a proc chance where as the other mods will always provide that bonus. Not to mention the normal mods will most likely take up less space than the golden free shot mod. If it gives 90% chance for it to proc you've just made all other ammo mods useless. In fact all of these mods would be useless.

 

Bigger Magazine

Extra ammo

Ammo Mutation mods.

Primed versions of those mods too.

 

There would be no reason to use any of those mods if yours procced at 90%. But if it procced at like 30% you're better off with a normal mod.

 

5: I'm not talking about increasing DPS on these mods. I'm talking about mods that would just be better than almost any other mod in that utility slot. Also you'd almost run out of utility mods for quite some time. Unless you're in Nightmare a lot or Corrupted Vaults. But for new players they would always add those mods.

 

But if Fire rate isn't a utility mod then you just throw in another mod. Maybe Puncture mod which I've forgotten. But those would never ever change. So nothing would be truly different on each gun.

 

Oh and increased range still won't make the weapons that much better. It just won't.

 

6: No, Multishot would be rather weak. I would rather throw in Fire rate or extra damage in the gun than your Multishot which only makes the gun use more bullets and fire in a burst mode.

Also how would it work on Bows? Would it fire off additional arrows? How about Ogris? Opticor? 

How would you solve the Hek Syndicate Mod?

 

For Freeshot not going over 100%. Ok then, at what % values should be at? If it's too low it's not gonna be all that fun. If it's much higher than the other Ammo mods it's gonna make them useless and would turn the mod into another Mandatory mod that you will always throw in because it'd basically mean infinitive ammo.

1. So you are the "power god" addict. Ok, that explains a lot. You don't care about balance, you care about being powerful.

I also like being powerful, to an extent. Just not at the cost of some ok-ish balance and variety.

 

2. Yeah, they need a change in some way. The event physical mods are just *facepalm*. Instead of rebalancing, we got NEW better mods. Completely derp. And now Primed Heavy Trauma -_-

 

3. Are you... are you for real? How would it reduce the damage in any way?? Fire rate = Shoot things faster (more bullets per second) at the expense of wasting ammo faster. Multishot (my version) = Shoot things faster (more bullets per trigger) at the expense of wasting ammo faster. They become really close in function to one another in my version, yet you say one is horrible and the other one is great??? Haha, sorry, that's quite funny to believe. Either that, or you are completely misunderstanding my suggestion. Which I doubt.

 

Main difference: Fire rate would have the benefit of being reliable and controllable, but grants a lower number (60% on Rifles). Multishot would not be as reliable or as controllable, but has a higher (thus more POWERFUL) number (90% on Rifles).

 

4. Multishot ALSO relies on random procs, are you just gonna keep ignoring that? And freeshot would still be equipped in the powerslot, since it is so strong, the others would be utility. So, it's not even competing for the modspace. No obsoletion.

And 90% freeshot ... that's just ridiculous to even suggest that. What a hyperbole. That's the equivalent (in terms of ammo efficiency) to having 900% multishot! At max, I'd keep it around 30% / 40% or so, which is the equivalent (in terms of ammo-effiency) to having 50% / 90% multishot. You seem to not understand just how useful that mod would actually be. You can refrain from not using it, after all, opinions are opinions. But me (and I bet a few others too), I would enjoy its addition.

 

5. "This is how everyone would do it!", said the narrowminded person. People have different tastes. Some would enjoy everything about ammo. Some likes reload mods. Some like better zoom+accuracy. Some likes additional range. Some will mix and match and vary a lot. You definitely can't speak for all these people. So please, don't make those kind of assumptions that EVERYONE would ONLY use reload and ammo mods. For example, I know I wouldn't only use those.

And think about this: Would you take all ammo mods for, say, the Latrons, which are so ammo efficient already? Reload and magsize, I bet you would. But max ammo and ammo mutation? I guess not. But who knows, maybe someone would! We don't know that.

 

Eh... in terms of DPS, fire rate is one of the best boosters there are (after base damage and multishot), since it multiplies ALL of your burst dps. If it was made into a utility mod, it would have to be severely nerfed, for the sake of balance.

And on something with chargeattacks, like bows, fire rate is generally more useful than the last slot having an elemental mod or such, since it helps so much against crowds.

 

Increased range has benefits for certain. Many times have my continuous weapons just not reached a target in front of me. If I had a range mod, I would. 0 dps, or full dps? Not useful? Ok. Add punchthrough and kill some additional targets, due to increased range. Not useful? Ok.

 

6. *sigh* Like I said: Fire rate and my version of multishot are not all too different from one another. Read response number 3.

 

Bows = They have the benefit of no magazine, so, just like multishot does now, it shoots an extra shot. Only difference: It would now consume an extra arrow. Overkill? It might indeed be, thus it is no longer an ESSENTIAL mod. Which is kind of the whole point here...

Ogris and Opticor = Same thing here: Shoots an extra rocket/laserbeam like if it was a regular current multishot. Only difference: The magsize would have to be above 1. Unless you also have the freeshot mod and it procced, then it could still fire 2 rockets/lasershots, at the cost of that last ammo in the mag. I don't see how it would be so complicated.

 

Hek syndicate mod is so ridiculously overpowered anyway (in terms of raw damageboosting), I don't mind Hek (and shotguns in general) getting buffed from the base instead (in reasonable ways) and then changing this overpowered mod into something entirely different. Justice effect would still be there of course. The other bonus I can see things such as (Max rank values) a 100% magsize bonus, or 20% freeshot chance, or 1,2 meters punchthrough. Just anything else than an overpowered mod, which alone triples its damage.

 

Freeshot percent: Around 30% is balanced I think. Too much and they would, indeed, be way too strong. Absolute max would be 40%. Not including any syndicate mods of course (which would be a great type of syndicate weapon augment for the weakest automatic pistols/rifles, considering their horrible ammo efficiency).

 

EDIT: Fixed some spelling issues.

Edited by Azamagon
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Serration is like hydrogenated corn syrup, I want some vanilla, chocolate, cinnimon, caramel, or peppermint. The mod system was supposed to be a choice based progression system, but that choice is bland if 'insert flavor' is always the best for every situation.

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There are still few unanswered questions.

What happens to the rest of damage mods? (Spoiled Strike, Heavy Caliber, Vicious Spread, Blaze, Magnum Force, Rubedo-Lined Barrel, Maul, bane mods, syndicate mods, channeling mods)

Do they get removed/replaced as well? If not, do they need more severe downsides? Should damage increasing mods exist in any form?

And what about physical damage mods? (impact, puncture, slash)

They cannot receive elemental treatment, as they are already part of the base damage and their status effects are rather unimpressive.

I realize that this thread is about Serration and it's friends, but those other damage mods, if left unchecked, will simply replace it and become mandatory.

Edited by oinkah
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The issue is more that blanket damage mods increase gamage by huge amounts where specifc damage mods increase damage by small amounts (comparitivly, over 100% boost to everything or less than 100% boost to one aspect).

 

This inherently is backwards from a choice perspective, making the overall damage mods always the best option instead of an option (becuse you get more boost than to a specific damage than the specific mods would give anyway, and a bonus of the others increasing too).  

Specifc damage mods should be given the larger boosts while over all damage mods are the lower ones making for more generalised damage builds

 

For example if a mod gave 120% slash or pierce damage while seration was say a 50% increase to all physical damage you now have a choice, do you increase just slash (knowing it may be weaker against some enemies) or increase general damage making it versatile against all enemies (if slightly more damage boost overall cause the 50% increase to all damage types).

 

In all essence if the blanket damage mods are required, they need to be added directly to the weapon as it levels up (like warfraem health and shield growth) rather than requiring a mod to do so as this would buy pass the needed mod hurdel the game currently has.  Weapons can even grow in damage differently to make them more unique.

 

Ultimatly though DE (and a lot of players) need to do away with the notion of not taking away stuff from the players dispite having spent time taken alot of time to get it.  If it makes the game better as a whole it should be done whether players themselves like it or not (taking away stuff that doesnt make the game better is bad). 

Not removing/nerfing stuff that is unbalanced and causing issues for the game on the whole, is actually going to result in a worse game than taking it out would.

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The issue is more that blanket damage mods increase gamage by huge amounts where specifc damage mods increase damage by small amounts (comparitivly, over 100% boost to everything or less than 100% boost to one aspect).

 

This inherently is backwards from a choice perspective, making the overall damage mods always the best option instead of an option (becuse you get more boost than to a specific damage than the specific mods would give anyway, and a bonus of the others increasing too).  

Specifc damage mods should be given the larger boosts while over all damage mods are the lower ones making for more generalised damage builds

 

For example if a mod gave 120% slash or pierce damage while seration was say a 50% increase to all physical damage you now have a choice, do you increase just slash (knowing it may be weaker against some enemies) or increase general damage making it versatile against all enemies (if slightly more damage boost overall cause the 50% increase to all damage types).

 

In all essence if the blanket damage mods are required, they need to be added directly to the weapon as it levels up (like warfraem health and shield growth) rather than requiring a mod to do so as this would buy pass the needed mod hurdel the game currently has.  Weapons can even grow in damage differently to make them more unique.

 

Ultimatly though DE (and a lot of players) need to do away with the notion of not taking away stuff from the players dispite having spent time taken alot of time to get it.  If it makes the game better as a whole it should be done whether players themselves like it or not (taking away stuff that doesnt make the game better is bad). 

Not removing/nerfing stuff that is unbalanced and causing issues for the game on the whole, is actually going to result in a worse game than taking it out would.

I agreed overall with you. I'm more on the side of nerfing the overly powerful mods. Because outright removing those mods would be very hard to compensate for (Removing + not compensating would be... ouch).

 

Thus, exactly why I proposed this:

I'd rather have this:

 

* Nerf (don't remove) all plain damage increasers. If Serration and similar mods only gave, say, 5% bonus per rank, it would be good, but not as overpoweredly amazing as it is now. If elemental mods gave max 60% bonus, while the dualstat ones only gave 40%, they'd also be less crazy in scaling. It's the only thing you can do now, really. Removing it now is too difficult.

* Split multishot up into two different mods:

1) Current multishot mods = Chance to shoot an extra bullet, but at the cost of consuming an additional bullet. More burst, less ammo

2) Add new "freeshot" mods = Chance that one of your bullets is not consumed from your mag. Works on multishot-procs too!

So, if you wanna keep the current multishot-power, you need to equip BOTH of these mods at once.

* Add 4 utility slots for all weapons (and Warframes, but that's offtopic). Here you put mods that affect don't directly affect damage/burst dps very much, stuff like: Reload, magsize, silencers, zoom, recoil, projectile speed, weapon range, projectile bounces etc. More powerful utility mods, such as the suggested "freeshot" ones, would still be in the regular 8 power slots.

 

Tadaaaa, tone down insane scalings AND add more fun customization at once! What's not to like?

Note: An alternative to the multishot mod is simply to nerf it to reasonable values, more like Archwing's weaponmod Dual Rounds (30%), plus, in the case of Hell's Chamber and Split Chamber, reduce their modcosts to be the same as Barrel Diffusion. Lethal Torrent would obviously also need a nerf. The freeshot mods and having seperate, new slots for utility would still be an interesting addition regardless, imo.

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There are still few unanswered questions.

What happens to the rest of damage mods? (Spoiled Strike, Heavy Caliber, Vicious Spread, Blaze, Magnum Force, Rubedo-Lined Barrel, Maul, bane mods, syndicate mods, channeling mods)

Do they get removed/replaced as well? If not, do they need more severe downsides? Should damage increasing mods exist in any form?

Corrupt mods would give smaller bonuses to bigger penalities (but probably more managable penalties like recoil) 

Archwing moding is in a silly possition right now (behold my fearsome gas weapon in space!. Really? Couldn't they think of something that'd work)  Maul can be nerfed or replaced with functions. Syndicate mods.. can be rebalanced. Chaneling mods are fine (probably, don't quote me on that)

 

Bane mods would be better in more specific forms like "+ damage to heavy units" or "+status on robots" 

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One example I suppose would be using mods like Hawk Eye or Eagle Eye instead of Barrel Diffusion or other pure damage mods to allow the weapons to play as a more long-range role (like modding your pistol as a long range status support gun and using your shotgun or rifle for when enemies get too close.)

do you use Seer? why not? didn't you want a scoped pistol? did someone forced you to take the synoid gammacor instead?

 

the problem i get with this kind of post, is people don't really want to choose, they want to be forced to choose! "i could make that already, but if i do i wont be the highest possible damage (which as all superlatives is unique), and people will think i am a fool for not using the highest possible damage".

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removing all the mods that add damage would make anything beyond mars almost impossible.

 

get a unranked mk1-braton, now do t4 survival then review your proposal

 

Developers said in the latest stream that when dealing with touchy mods like Serration, they'll have to rebalance "whole animal".

So this basically means, that when/if damage mods get removed, enemy levels will be changed as well.

 

And what is so wrong with taking Mk1 Braton to T4? Not unmodded of course, but no reason why a player shouldn't even scratch high level enemies with starting gear. This isn't auto-attack RPG, this is a shooter, skill should matter more than gear upgrade.

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And what is so wrong with taking Mk1 Braton to T4? Not unmodded of course, but no reason why a player shouldn't even scratch high level enemies with starting gear. This isn't auto-attack RPG, this is a shooter, skill should matter more than gear upgrade.

i actually have an unmodded mk1 Braton which i sometimes use on bosses for fun, but there is limit to where skill can get you

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1. So you are the "power god" addict. Ok, that explains a lot. You don't care about balance, you care about being powerful.

I also like being powerful, to an extent. Just not at the cost of some ok-ish balance and variety.

 

2. Yeah, they need a change in some way. The event physical mods are just *facepalm*. Instead of rebalancing, we got NEW better mods. Completely derp. And now Primed Heavy Trauma -_-

 

3. Are you... are you for real? How would it reduce the damage in any way?? Fire rate = Shoot things faster (more bullets per second) at the expense of wasting ammo faster. Multishot (my version) = Shoot things faster (more bullets per trigger) at the expense of wasting ammo faster. They become really close in function to one another in my version, yet you say one is horrible and the other one is great??? Haha, sorry, that's quite funny to believe. Either that, or you are completely misunderstanding my suggestion. Which I doubt.

 

Main difference: Fire rate would have the benefit of being reliable and controllable, but grants a lower number (60% on Rifles). Multishot would not be as reliable or as controllable, but has a higher (thus more POWERFUL) number (90% on Rifles).

 

4. Multishot ALSO relies on random procs, are you just gonna keep ignoring that? And freeshot would still be equipped in the powerslot, since it is so strong, the others would be utility. So, it's not even competing for the modspace. No obsoletion.

And 90% freeshot ... that's just ridiculous to even suggest that. What a hyperbole. That's the equivalent (in terms of ammo efficiency) to having 900% multishot! At max, I'd keep it around 30% / 40% or so, which is the equivalent (in terms of ammo-effiency) to having 50% / 90% multishot. You seem to not understand just how useful that mod would actually be. You can refrain from not using it, after all, opinions are opinions. But me (and I bet a few others too), I would enjoy its addition.

 

5. "This is how everyone would do it!", said the narrowminded person. People have different tastes. Some would enjoy everything about ammo. Some likes reload mods. Some like better zoom+accuracy. Some likes additional range. Some will mix and match and vary a lot. You definitely can't speak for all these people. So please, don't make those kind of assumptions that EVERYONE would ONLY use reload and ammo mods. For example, I know I wouldn't only use those.

And think about this: Would you take all ammo mods for, say, the Latrons, which are so ammo efficient already? Reload and magsize, I bet you would. But max ammo and ammo mutation? I guess not. But who knows, maybe someone would! We don't know that.

 

Eh... in terms of DPS, fire rate is one of the best boosters there are (after base damage and multishot), since it multiplies ALL of your burst dps. If it was made into a utility mod, it would have to be severely nerfed, for the sake of balance.

And on something with chargeattacks, like bows, fire rate is generally more useful than the last slot having an elemental mod or such, since it helps so much against crowds.

 

Increased range has benefits for certain. Many times have my continuous weapons just not reached a target in front of me. If I had a range mod, I would. 0 dps, or full dps? Not useful? Ok. Add punchthrough and kill some additional targets, due to increased range. Not useful? Ok.

 

6. *sigh* Like I said: Fire rate and my version of multishot are not all too different from one another. Read response number 3.

 

Bows = They have the benefit of no magazine, so, just like multishot does now, it shoots an extra shot. Only difference: It would now consume an extra arrow. Overkill? It might indeed be, thus it is no longer an ESSENTIAL mod. Which is kind of the whole point here...

Ogris and Opticor = Same thing here: Shoots an extra rocket/laserbeam like if it was a regular current multishot. Only difference: The magsize would have to be above 1. Unless you also have the freeshot mod and it procced, then it could still fire 2 rockets/lasershots, at the cost of that last ammo in the mag. I don't see how it would be so complicated.

 

Hek syndicate mod is so ridiculously overpowered anyway (in terms of raw damageboosting), I don't mind Hek (and shotguns in general) getting buffed from the base instead (in reasonable ways) and then changing this overpowered mod into something entirely different. Justice effect would still be there of course. The other bonus I can see things such as (Max rank values) a 100% magsize bonus, or 20% freeshot chance, or 1,2 meters punchthrough. Just anything else than an overpowered mod, which alone triples its damage.

 

Freeshot percent: Around 30% is balanced I think. Too much and they would, indeed, be way too strong. Absolute max would be 40%. Not including any syndicate mods of course (which would be a great type of syndicate weapon augment for the weakest automatic pistols/rifles, considering their horrible ammo efficiency).

 

EDIT: Fixed some spelling issues.

 

1: If DE nerf all the Damage mods to oblivion where you can barely upgrade your damage I will stop playing because there is no longer any reward in collecting mods when every mod does crap damage.

Game can be balanced even with high damage values. It just needs to be done differently.

 

3: After reading your suggestion a few more times you could just have said it consumes ammo on activation rather than talking about burst damage and shooting an extra bullet.  

 

But after that I'll say this, I know now of a new combo that will make weapons even more powerful. I'll bring it up further down.

 

 

4: As for Freeshot. I can fully see the usefulness of this mod but I can also see it being insanely game breaking by making ammo drop useless. But if it's a low % you just mix it with other ammo mods to break the game. 

 

5: No one cares about extra zoom as there are hardly any maps for it. Also there is really no need for it when the weapons that might use them already kill in one shot most of the time.

 

But for the most ideal combo on the 4 mods.

 

Puncture mod (Unless you have a bolt type weapon)

Freeshot

Magazine size

Reload speed or just more ammo total if reload speed is fine enough.

 

With increased magazine size and Freeshot you quite a lot of extra bullets in your magazine. It could very well render the side effect of Multishot just useless so this won't be an issue. Also we have Corrupted mods which add more ammo too.

 

So all in all you've not fixed anything. If anything you've just given all weapon bigger magazines and far more potential damage. 

All though I don't recall you saying anything about how many normal mod slots a weapon will have. If it's 8 then we're going to have an entire new level of power modding. Unless you want to nerf all the mods to oblivion which is just boring. Why not just remove them all together? Because there won't be much use for damage mods if they don't increase any damage.

 

Also I don't see this Variation you speak of in these 4 Utility slots. All I see is being able to maximize your weapon beyond of what you can do now. People can use the mods you mentioned now if they want too. The reason the don't is because they are not useful in any kind of way. Not because you remove damage by using them.

 

6: The Hek mod is fine. The gun only has 4 magazine capacity so they give it high burst damage. Also shotguns are still rather useless on range. Nerfing it to such pathetic values would be a kick in the balls to those who got it. It'd make Hek useless again. Why not just remove shotguns all together then?

Because apparently they are not allowed to be good.

 

 

What I do find laughable though is that Multishot is seen as a boring mod but Freeshot isn't? Freeshot just makes the gun not consume ammo which is just boring. You still do the same damage but all it does is make you have to shoot more at enemies.

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1: If DE nerf all the Damage mods to oblivion where you can barely upgrade your damage I will stop playing because there is no longer any reward in collecting mods when every mod does crap damage.

Game can be balanced even with high damage values. It just needs to be done differently.

 

3: After reading your suggestion a few more times you could just have said it consumes ammo on activation rather than talking about burst damage and shooting an extra bullet.  

 

But after that I'll say this, I know now of a new combo that will make weapons even more powerful. I'll bring it up further down.

 

 

4: As for Freeshot. I can fully see the usefulness of this mod but I can also see it being insanely game breaking by making ammo drop useless. But if it's a low % you just mix it with other ammo mods to break the game. 

 

5: No one cares about extra zoom as there are hardly any maps for it. Also there is really no need for it when the weapons that might use them already kill in one shot most of the time.

 

But for the most ideal combo on the 4 mods.

 

Puncture mod (Unless you have a bolt type weapon)

Freeshot

Magazine size

Reload speed or just more ammo total if reload speed is fine enough.

 

With increased magazine size and Freeshot you quite a lot of extra bullets in your magazine. It could very well render the side effect of Multishot just useless so this won't be an issue. Also we have Corrupted mods which add more ammo too.

 

So all in all you've not fixed anything. If anything you've just given all weapon bigger magazines and far more potential damage. 

All though I don't recall you saying anything about how many normal mod slots a weapon will have. If it's 8 then we're going to have an entire new level of power modding. Unless you want to nerf all the mods to oblivion which is just boring. Why not just remove them all together? Because there won't be much use for damage mods if they don't increase any damage.

 

Also I don't see this Variation you speak of in these 4 Utility slots. All I see is being able to maximize your weapon beyond of what you can do now. People can use the mods you mentioned now if they want too. The reason the don't is because they are not useful in any kind of way. Not because you remove damage by using them.

 

6: The Hek mod is fine. The gun only has 4 magazine capacity so they give it high burst damage. Also shotguns are still rather useless on range. Nerfing it to such pathetic values would be a kick in the balls to those who got it. It'd make Hek useless again. Why not just remove shotguns all together then?

Because apparently they are not allowed to be good.

 

 

What I do find laughable though is that Multishot is seen as a boring mod but Freeshot isn't? Freeshot just makes the gun not consume ammo which is just boring. You still do the same damage but all it does is make you have to shoot more at enemies.

1. Remember: While they would be nerfed down by a hefty amount, you have 8 slots entirely dedicated to how you wanna boost your damage. It would be fine.

Tell me how it would be balanced with their current numbers? It's not exactly balanced as it is.

 

3. I didn't exactly write rocket science >_>

 

4. Balanced numbers = Not breaking anything...

 

5. Do you even read what I write??

I said:

1) Zoom should give a bigger boost to accuracy than it does currently. Then people might consider it on certain inaccurate weapons. Just because YOU don't like it, doesn't mean others will...

2) Freeshot would NOT be utility, it's too strong for that. Seriously, how many times do I need to write that?

 

Also - Punchthrough (which is was I guess is what you mean by puncture? Because puncture is a damagetype fyi) would absolutely NEVER EVER be utility. It can double, triple, quadruple or even multiply your damage by way more than that. It's a regular mod, for sure.

 

I didn't say anything about regular mods, they stay with 8 slot. So you'd have:

* 8 mods for damage (includes freeshot and punchthrough, among other things). These are nerfed quite a bit in power so we have less insane scaling. But not nerfed into complete uselessness. You keep hyperboling, it won't help you.

* 4 mods for utility of your choosing.

 

The reason why current utility mods aren't used much right now is not only because they might have worse numbers, but because they compete with damagemods in the first place. Even if you buffed some utility mods to complete overpoweredness, I don't think ANYONE would equip 8 utilityslots, only. Not even 6, or probably not even 4! Because damage competing with utility is a dumb idea, since damage is the most effective way (in almost all cases) to make your weapon perform better. Especially in a game like this with its insane scaling. Hence seperating them and removing the issue of utility vs damage. With that, more modding variety WILL exist if this is done, that's undeniable.

 

Actually, if we would have 4 utility and 8 powerslots, the powermods (damage mods etc) wouldn't need to be nerfed all that much either. This seperation will solve a lot of the lack of modding variety. But, still, toning down damage mods is the only way to be nice to the newbies, so they scaling of weapons and enemy defenses can both be toned down. Maybe not nerf as much as I suggested, but at least tone them down a notch. It's necessary for the longevity of the game.

 

6. While the mod doesn't do much for its actual PROBLEMS (dealing with crowds), it is still, in pure damagevalues, an insanely overpowered mod. It TRIPLES its damage output, how is that a good idea for a mod, ever??

The Hek isn't all too weak in the first place, it mainly suffers QoL-issues (such as a really slow reload compared to its magsize. The same problems as with EVERY single shotgun, but they also suffer from falloff, more than the Hek!).

And I DID say (seriously, do you even read?) that all shotguns need buffs, BASELINE! Not through overpowered mods. Yet you keep crying "remove them all, they aren't allowed to be good apparently". Way to sound like a whiny little brat. Read what I write first.

 

Did I say that multishot was boring? No, I said it is too strong as it is right now. It either needs toning down, or a change its mechanics, like to what I suggested for example.

Edited by Azamagon
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