Bring Back Iron Skin Face Tanking

[Holeypaladin]

I've pretty much abandoned Rhino in favor of Mirage lately.  She's just so much better in every way, that Rhino doesn't serve much purpose anymore.  He's only mediocre now.  His main face tanking power, iron skin, is so weak compared to damage reduction powers like shatter shield and eclipse that it's not practical for the high end content I'm playing lately.

 

Iron skin face tanking needs to come back.  I miss the days when Rhino could face tank with the best of them, rather than being a roar-stomp bot like he is now.  Roar-stomp is good, sure, but I like to face tank, and can't do it as Rhino anymore.

 

How to do this?  A simple change to iron skin can do it.  Since everyone is against bringing back invulnerability (even though loki's invisibility is exactly that), you can just make it something like 75% damage reduction (scaling with power strength) for 20 seconds (scaling with power duration), plus immunity to crowd control affects, for an energy cost of 25.

 

This would bring iron skin in line with eclipse, but remove the massive damage increase and instead be a full time defensive buff.  The stats I listed are quite similar to the duration and damage reduction of eclipse when mirage is in the shade.

 

One important thing to keep in mind: The goal of this discussion is NOT to bring back Rhino invincibility.  We don't want him to be invincible, just more resilient than the non-tank frames.

 

Update:

5 step proposal to balance out damage reduction powers:

Step 1: Remove invulnerability from Valkyr's broken hysteria.

Step 2: Remove power scaling to eclipse and shatter shield.  80% DR for Mesa and 75% for Mirage is more than enough for "glass cannon" type warframes.

Step 3: Buff Rhino's base armor to 300 and apply armor DR to iron skin.  Iron skin health = max shields + max health + power strength.  This makes a full iron skin build require at least four mods (Redirection, vitality, steel fiber, and power strength mods)

Step 4: Add additional aggro mechanics to make Rhino draw enemy fire away from teammates and to himself.

Step 5: Buff Frost's armor to 300.  Give Frost an augment to make snow globe more eximus-like in exchange for a significant chunk of its health.... perhaps using the same health and DR formula as iron skin for the eximus version.

Edited January 23, 2015 by Holeypaladin

[Jaskaran498]

Loki's invisibility... immortality?

Post your video of surviving 30min pr above on solo in ODS with loki's invisibility and I'll believe that.

[UnknownGunneryChief]

Face-tanking is for absolute newbies who don't understand how OP cover is in this game. Face-tanking should not even be a thing, so stop asking for unpurposeful buffs to something already as good as it needs to be.

 

P.S. Loki's Invisibility is nowhere near "invulnerability". Any stray bullet, projectile or AoE explosion can and will damage you, and Mirage needs to be in darkness to have those defensive buffs, and almost all maps are very bright.

[Holeypaladin]

Face tanking is a thing, though.

 

Just not a Rhino thing anymore.

 

Valkyr, Mirage, and Mesa all face tank better than Rhino.  And Rhino is supposed to be the face tank frame... hence why iron skin used to be complete invulnerability.

 

Just because you don't like to face tank doesn't mean there shouldn't be a frame for people who do.  Heck, there are already several.  Rhino makes the most logical sense to be at the top of the face tanking frames, but he isn't.

 

Have you even READ the codex entry for Rhino Prime?  It goes on and on about how good he's supposed to be at face tanking.  He's totally meant to be the face tank frame.  But he isn't, because people keep complaining about how OP iron skin face tanking used to be, but no one seems to complain at all when face tanking powers are given to Valkyr and Mirage.

Edited January 10, 2015 by Holeypaladin

[Nagasadri]

Trinity fits all my lategame facetanking needs...but that's all she has beside energy generation.
Valkyr is also a dream to play in the middle of dozens of high damage ennemies without taking a scratch.
Rhino has the infinite cc and damage buffs for his team, and iron skin just helps him do it while staying alive.
If he was to facetank again, he would need nerfs for his other abilities  so he doesn't become good at everything. Again.

Each warframe needs to keep it's own speciality, otherwise there wouldn't be any point in playing them.
I remember the time when Rhino was the ultimate facetank, and he was so overplayed it became obnoxious.

[Aigloblam]

I'd love to be able to just face tank with Rhino....But thats just my childish wish. Both UnknownGunneryChief and Jaskaran really nailed it.

Loki is invincible....Unless there are bullets flying down hallways, massive clouds of poison, AoE enemy attacks, Grenades, etc etc etc......Non-Targetable doesnt mean immune to damage.

Mirage is amazing, true, but every frame has their own style, and Rhino is a real asset, having Buffs, CC, Tank, and Mobility, depending on how you want to build it. Reducing him to straight up face tank would really be dumbing him down. Once you figure out the intricacies of a frame, i mean really get down to it, You'll understand how EVERY frame fits in.

[Holeypaladin]

If people like to face tank, let them face tank with the most obvious face tank frame.  There are frames who are amazing at face tanking.  Hysteria, anyone?  Rhino looks like a face tank frame, but he's not.  But if he looks like one, and his codex says he is one, why isn't he one?

 

Even if Rhino was given face tanking powers again, he still wouldn't be the best frame.  The ability of Mirage to have over 200% bonus damage from her mirror image alone while face tanking in the shadows puts her above Rhino in the face tanky damage dealing good at everything category.  Everyone likes to hate on Rhino because so many people play him, and this has caused him to be largely ignored while the newer warframes were given much better abilities at everything, surpassing him so much in power than Rhino now fits in the "mediocre" category of warframe to the "ultra amazing" of Mirage and Trinity.  While there are other frames that need bigger reworks than Rhino does (frost, ember, etc.), a simple change to the most popular frame would easily knock him out of the way as far as the retuning and rebalancing of warframes is concerned.

[OHyeahWF]

somehow, you are wishing to use Valkyr skill by Rhino.

[Holeypaladin]

That's exactly what iron skin used to be.  Hysteria, with a shorter duration, minus the additional melee weapon.

 

So yes, I want the old iron skin back.  Since that's unlikely to happen, I'm willing to settle with a base 75% version of the original iron skin rather than 100%.

 

It wouldn't make Rhino "good at everything" like everyone fears, because he'd need duration, range, strength, and efficiency all at the same time to use his three powers... meaning no corrupted mod double stacking benefits with no penalties like so many other frames get.

Edited January 10, 2015 by Holeypaladin

[Aigloblam]

I'm not sure you understand what we're getting at.

Rhino falls off in "Face Tanking" at really high levels. But so does everyone else, Save Valkyr, and at those levels shes not doing enough damage to make it worth staying invincible for long.

 

There has to be a limiting factor to ever frame, and Rhino is no different. For the longest time, nobody seemed to realize that, and Trinity was quite simply THE God-Frame. Now shes not, still amazing, but not an infinite survivor.

What DE is trying to do is balance frames so that they all fall off either in key abilities (Iron Skin, Charge), or the entire frame in general (Ember, Saryn) more or less at the same level. Yes, some frames are behind or ahead...but they are working on it. While the changes you are suggesting would definitely make him a better Tank, it would upset the balance he already has, Which has taken a very long time to get right.

 

 

That's exactly what iron skin used to be.  Hysteria, with a shorter duration, minus the additional melee weapon.

 

So yes, I want the old iron skin back.  Since that's unlikely to happen, I'm willing to settle with a base 75% version of the original iron skin rather than 100%.

 

It wouldn't make Rhino "good at everything" like everyone fears, because he'd need duration, range, strength, and efficiency all at the same time to use his three powers... meaning no corrupted mod double stacking benefits with no penalties like so many other frames get.

Yes it certainly would make him good at everything again. Without the need to use Power mod-cards anymore, it would be WAY too easy to build him into an untouchable force of nature. The reason Valkyr gets away with it, is that shes stuck with a Melee weapon, that can't match with any of the End-Game weapons. Its her limiting factor. With your changes, Rhino wouldn't have any limiting factors.

[Holeypaladin]

Rhino SHOULD be the best face tanking frame.  Have you not played Mirage or Mesa at all?  They're way better at face tanking than Rhino is.  Valkyrie has a 77 second invulnerability... if that's not face tanking, I don't know what is.

 

The fact that Rhino's ability doesn't come anywhere near the survivability of not one, but FOUR other frames means he's underpowered at his signature power, the one described in his codex.

[Aigloblam]

Rhino SHOULD be the best face tanking frame.  Have you not played Mirage or Mesa at all?  They're way better at face tanking than Rhino is.  Valkyrie has a 77 second invulnerability... if that's not face tanking, I don't know what is.

 

The fact that Rhino's ability doesn't come anywhere near the survivability of not one, but FOUR other frames means he's underpowered at his signature power, the one described in his codex.

I can easily name you 50 people that can take him anywhere that any other frame can go. So something isn't adding up somewhere.

This is going nowhere, Have a good night.

*bow*

[(PSN)Veg1ta]

Rhino cant tank? News to me buddy lol.

[Azawarau]

Just

 

No....

 

75% DR is way too high. Why use valkyr?

 

25 energy? Why specifically?

 

Rhino can face tank as he is but you have to melee like valkyr to pull it off

 

Mirages DR is nearly without use

 

If youre not being mobile with melee youll die quickly even with valkyrs armor

 

Being reliant on random shadows isnt going to help you face tank at all.

That example is horrible

 

Youve said rhino should be this and that without reason ultiple times and claim itd make rhino good at everything as if he isnt already

[Holeypaladin]

Rhino is a face tank frame.  He's designed that way.  His face tank ability is useful throughout most of the game.

 

But it falls short in that it is not designed for the current high-end content.  When it was switched over to its current form, it was more than sufficient to face tank everything in the game.  But with the high level enemies in T4 missions, it is no longer sufficient in its primary purpose.

 

In order for him to be viable in ENDGAME content, iron skin needs to be improved.  Otherwise, I'll just use other frames to face tank.  They're very good at it.  Trinity, Mesa, Valkyr, Mirage... all very very good facetanks.  Rhino isn't, anymore.

 

I find there to be plenty of shadows to facetank as mirage.  I've never had a problem staying in the shadow for as long as I want to on missions where I like to facetank.  If you are unable to find shadows... you're pretty fail at facetanking as mirage.  Meanwhile, Valkyr is completely invulnerable, all the time, throughout every second of every game with the proper build.  If she's not a deliberate facetank, I don't know what is.

 

If the berserker frame can facetank, the facetank frame should be able to facetank.  As far as that 75% I mentioned... it's a copy-paste from mirage's eclipse.  Look it up if you don't believe me.

Edited January 10, 2015 by Holeypaladin

[torngasoak]

i will not be long because my English is poor.

 

Rhino is really bad.

And yet this is my main because i was playing before and i will continue event

if it's really useless.

 

80% of the time, when i ask for a high wave t4 and i talk about the frame rhino

the people tells me "do not you have another frame" but rhino op...

 

i make t4 survival 40 min + i will solo with loki or ash but is normaly...

Trinity / valkyr invulnerable ----> why rhino has been nerf before????

 

i laugh when i see the negative argument rhino long ago. These arguments

had been destroyed by other before and now we take them back^^.

 

IRL i talk to a lot of people of this game and all admit that Rhino is really bad hight wave

just good for early...

 

People  who tell that rhino is good, he does not play in hight wave ...

 (i have a funny story with that)

 

my English is bad but in french i have best argument for compraing other frame...

[(PSN)Veg1ta]

If ur wanting to tank end game content your doing it wrong, work as a team and specialize in roar, Rhino best ability.

[Holeypaladin]

Actually, that is absolutely wrong.  With god-tier weapons as powerful as they are... killing endgame enemies is not difficult at all.  The real difficulty is in surviving those bombard attacks.

 

So facetanking is the absolute best way to tackle endgame content.  But only if you're valkyr, mesa, mirage, or trinity, since they're the only frames that can facetank endgame content.

[(PSN)Veg1ta]

Actually, that is absolutely wrong.  With god-tier weapons as powerful as they are... killing endgame enemies is not difficult at all.  The real difficulty is in surviving those bombard attacks.

 

So facetanking is the absolute best way to tackle endgame content.  But only if you're valkyr, mesa, mirage, or trinity, since they're the only frames that can facetank endgame content.

Mesa cant tank end game slash procs n valkyr is stuck in melee mod that does not scale gd enough, so ur a useless tank with no gd dps contributing to the team, which a top tier weapon would bring, cant comment on your other 2.

Edited January 10, 2015 by (PS4)Veg1ta

[Holeypaladin]

It's pretty clear that Rhino is the most hated and at the same time most popular warframe in the game.

 

It's very popular because he's good at facetanking low-level content.

 

And he's very hated because he's good at facetanking low-level content.

 

Rhino haters will always scream "Don't allow Rhino to facetank high level content!"  Why?  If you don't like Rhino's ability to facetank, then don't play him.. simple as that.

 

Meanwhile, Rhino lovers will always scream "Why is Rhino so much more fragile than other frames, when the codex entry specifically describes him as blocking a barrage of bullets with his face?"

 

You make a frame good to appeal to the people who like that frame.  Making him a better face tank won't make the Rhino-haters use him... it'll just make the Rhino-lovers keep using Rhino without switching to Mirage.

 

Mirage is an amazing frame, very fun to play.  I just wish Rhino was half as durable as Mirage and Valkyr.

[Azawarau]

i will not be long because my English is poor.

 

Rhino is really bad.

And yet this is my main because i was playing before and i will continue event

if it's really useless.

 

80% of the time, when i ask for a high wave t4 and i talk about the frame rhino

the people tells me "do not you have another frame" but rhino op...

 

i make t4 survival 40 min + i will solo with loki or ash but is normaly...

Trinity / valkyr invulnerable ----> why rhino has been nerf before????

 

i laugh when i see the negative argument rhino long ago. These arguments

had been destroyed by other before and now we take them back^^.

 

IRL i talk to a lot of people of this game and all admit that Rhino is really bad hight wave

just good for early...

 

People  who tell that rhino is good, he does not play in hight wave ...

 (i have a funny story with that)

 

my English is bad but in french i have best argument for compraing other frame...

The problem there is trinity is OP and hysteria needs to be changed

 

Though i doubt a hysteria user could get to 40 alone in T 4S

 

Thats a tough move even for warcry

 

Mesa cant tank end game slash procs n valkyr is stuck in melee mod that does not scale gd enough, so ur a useless tank with no gd dps contributing to the team, which a top tier weapon would bring, cant comment on your other 2.

Wait what?

 

I hope you mean hysteria doesnt scale...

[(PSN)Veg1ta]

Rhino can tank T4 easily , dont know where your getting ur info but its wrong , when rhino cant tank anymore its irrelevant , since by that point de dont balance for it.

[shoryukensama]

last time i played rhino was the only frame to have mastery rank to unlock. been rhino main since i started playing. also remembered him to be super tanky and super slow. since most new players wont have access to arcane vanguard. rhino is now super slow without super tanky. but he is still awesome. just wish he could use all that high base armor stats of his like frost somewhere. like maybe frost globe? being affected by frost armor? i dunno. sorry for the long post. XD

[Aigloblam]

Actually, that is absolutely wrong.  With god-tier weapons as powerful as they are... killing endgame enemies is not difficult at all.  The real difficulty is in surviving those bombard attacks.

 

So facetanking is the absolute best way to tackle endgame content.  But only if you're valkyr, mesa, mirage, or trinity, since they're the only frames that can facetank endgame content.

 

Ok i think we may have found the problem. What do you consider End-Game enemies? 50? 70? 90? 140?

[Rhaenxys]

Why 25 energy cost? for 20 seconds of 75% damage reduction? is pretty similar to Trinity`s link but link cost 75 power, there 0 reason to make it cost 25.

 

There is also no reason to give Rhino immunity to CC effects, i always take a good laugh when i see a Rhino receive a hit from the back and not getting any knockback, pay attention at your surroundings and you wont need that easy mode CC immunity.

 

If it cost 75 power and gives 75% DR with a 20 sec duration it will be more balanced.