Bring Back Iron Skin Face Tanking

[Aigloblam]

Till you get past about level 115 or so (Where nothing is really balanced at all anymore), Rhino is still plenty tanky if you build him right. Build for Power Strength and Efficiency, Then toss a Natural Talent on. That takes its Energy Cost to 12.5 energy. You literally just traded 12.5 Energy, for 3408 Extra hit points, And can do it again in almost no time at all. Not to mention nearly 1200 Shield, and 990 health (more if you have Vigor) With a build like that, you can Fire, Stomp, Iron Skin, Fire, and be ready to do it all again almost instantly. If you want to be stupid and "Face Tank" really high level enemies, Then by all means go about doing so. But There is no frame that can both Tank AND do the kind of damage that is needed to actually kill things. Not a single one. If you could carry a 5-7 forma'd weapon and fire it while Valkyr is in Hysteria, sure. But you can't. Its called Balance. I love Rhino, As I love nearly every other frame (with the exception of Hydroid...I just dont like him) but I see absolutely no reason the game should cater to your suicidal idea of standing there letting high level enemies hit you. Cover, CC, Accuracy, and pure skill.....Those keep you alive, Not being a titanic Meat Shield.

[UnknownGunneryChief]

Ok i think we may have found the problem. What do you consider End-Game enemies? 50? 70? 90? 140?

Exactly. Also, facetanking "End-game enemies" means you're dying to every 2 shots you take (1 to take down Iron Skin and 2nd to kill you), because to me End-game enemies are lvl 125+. Besides, facetanking only was ever supposed to work in low levels, in higher ones you have to make the most out of your range, cover and movement. That's why coptering is so godlike - you copter faster than most A.I. can lock onto you and start shooting or hit you with projectiles (exluding those seeking bombard missiles). Facetanking is also the easiest way to define a newbie - he doesn't understand that every small wall, every barrier that even partially blocks you from the enemy's view is more OP than any Shatter Shield or Iron Skin. I urge you, Holeypaladin, to try facetanking with a Shatter-Shield built Mesa or Eclipse built Mirage to try facetanking lvl 100+ enemies.

[Aigloblam]

Exactly. Also, facetanking "End-game enemies" means you're dying to every 2 shots you take (1 to take down Iron Skin and 2nd to kill you), because to me End-game enemies are lvl 125+. Besides, facetanking only was ever supposed to work in low levels, in higher ones you have to make the most out of your range, cover and movement. That's why coptering is so godlike - you copter faster than most A.I. can lock onto you and start shooting or hit you with projectiles (exluding those seeking bombard missiles). Facetanking is also the easiest way to define a newbie - he doesn't understand that every small wall, every barrier that even partially blocks you from the enemy's view is more OP than any Shatter Shield or Iron Skin. I urge you, Holeypaladin, to try facetanking with a Shatter-Shield built Mesa or Eclipse built Mirage to try facetanking lvl 100+ enemies.

After Melee 2.0, i considered 110+ end game, but once i got used to all the new event mods and double stacking stuff....140+ is what i'd say now. That being said, Im too lazy to get to that level anymore.....Anything after an hour of a Survival or so is just too time consuming lol

Signed - Apocalyptically Lazy Tenno

[UnknownGunneryChief]

After Melee 2.0, i considered 110+ end game, but once i got used to all the new event mods and double stacking stuff....140+ is what i'd say now. That being said, Im too lazy to get to that level anymore.....Anything after an hour of a Survival or so is just too time consuming lol

Signed - Apocalyptically Lazy Tenno

JK, I get you :D

[wolf96781]

Move on, just another noob wanting OP Rhino back

[DrBorris]

I'd be for that change (even though I hate Rhino). However, keep it a 50 energy ability, not sure how something that powerful can be justified for 25 energy. Rhino should be the tankiest frame in the game, there should be one true face-tanker. I also think that this is what DE will do when they finally get to working on Rhino. (make it cap at 95% though)

 

In general, I am fine with Mirage and Valkyr being tanky. Valkyr needs it to be a melee frame and Mirage can only be tanky when in shadows. What I do not understand is why a frame like Mesa is so tanky. Sure, melee can bypass shatter shield, but it is ridiculous to give a gunslinger such powerful damage reduction. Mesa's niche should be killing the enemy before they can damage her, not facetanking. This then leads to an issue with Peacemaker... so whatever. I am patiently awaiting Mesa's rework to become an actual gunslinger over another tanky "press 4 to win" frame (but I know it will be awhile). 

Edited January 10, 2015 by DrBorris

[torngasoak]

Aigloblam...

 

rhino with vigor with helmet thrak is 1290/885 hp.

 

Adn 12, 5 mana for 3408 Extra hit point ??? No... 3408 extra hit point it's 37 or 38 mana because blind rage -60% efficiency.

and with these stats you can not put flow or natural talent... and your mana is 150 at lvl 30, with roar buff 2-3 sec ???

 

redirection + vitality + vigor + blind rage (-60% efficiency) + transient fortitude (-27,5% duration) + intensify + streamline + fleeting expertise (-60% duration)

With helmet thrak 1290/885 hp the ferrite is 3408 extra hit point for 37 mana, your roar buff 2-3 sec and you have 150 mana.

It's a good build?? you play rhino like that??

 

go play rhino...

 

"Just another noob wanting op rhino back"...lol i have laugh.

Play rhino is no more noob than playing loki with 30 s invisibility or ash or other frame invincible or with op skill...

Rhino nerf for the invincibility (1 skill because other useless before). Now other frame invincible it's ok

Edited January 10, 2015 by torngasoak

[UnknownGunneryChief]

What I do not understand is why a frame like Mesa is so tanky. Sure, melee can bypass shatter shield, but it is ridiculous to give a gunslinger such powerful damage reduction. Mesa's niche should be killing the enemy before they can damage her, not facetanking. This then leads to an issue with Peacemaker... so whatever. I am patiently awaiting Mesa's rework to become an actual gunslinger over another tanky "press 4 to win" frame (but I know it will be awhile). 

Then, let me explain why.

 

First of all, do you even have Mesa? She is very squishy, and her Peacemaker makes her stand in a single spot. She needs that Shatter Shield to negate most ranged damage and her Shooting Galery to stun incoming melee units. These 2 survivability skills are also everything Mesa has after enemies are lvl 60+ since you will be shooting at each enemy for 2+ seconds even with max firerate, so these 2 let her at least stay alive beyond that point.

[UnknownGunneryChief]

Aigloblam...

 

rhino with vigor with helmet thrak is 1290/885 hp.

 

Adn 12, 5 mana for 3408 Extra hit point ??? No... 3408 extra hit point it's 37 or 38 mana because blind rage -60% efficiency.

and with these stats you can not put flow or natural talent... and your mana is 150 at lvl 30, with roar buff 2-3 sec ???

 

redirection + vitality + vigor + blind rage (-60% efficiency) + transient fortitude (-27,5% duration) + intensify + streamline + fleeting expertise (-60% duration)

With helmet thrak 1290/885 hp the ferrite is 3408 extra hit point for 37 mana, your roar buff 2-3 sec and you have 150 mana.

It's a good build?? you play rhino like that??

 

go play rhino...

 

"Just another noob wanting op rhino back"...lol i have laugh.

Play rhino is no more noob than playing loki with 30 s invisibility or ash or other frame invincible or with op skill...

Rhino nerf for the invincibility (1 skill because other useless before). Now other frame invincible it's ok

First of all, please learn proper grammar. I had to read certain parts 4-5 times to understand wtf you wanted to say. Second, Rhino's Iron Skin is good as it is. With it you can use all of your weaponry, you can move at the same speed, you negate 100% damage you take and you can't even be CCed. That is as good as it ever should be, stop  asking for unneeded buffs. When you reach the point when your 5583 EHP Rhino P can't facetank anymore it's usually the time any frame should start taking cover instead of sitting in a middle of crow spamming E.

[inappropriatename5818]

Face-tanking is for absolute newbies who don't understand how OP cover is in this game. Face-tanking should not even be a thing, so stop asking for unpurposeful buffs to something already as good as it needs to be.

 

P.S. Loki's Invisibility is nowhere near "invulnerability". Any stray bullet, projectile or AoE explosion can and will damage you, and Mirage needs to be in darkness to have those defensive buffs, and almost all maps are very bright.

 

You're right, all frames should be squishy and have to take cover. Let's throw variety out of the window. You want to play a tank frame that tanks for your team? Well f**k you go play another game!   

 

It makes a lot more sense that a DPS frame, a slim chick that specializes in shooting guns can tank WAAAAAAAAY better than the big tough guy that is there to do that.   

 

Really.

[AsuraKyu]

Instead of making it a Rhino thing, I will say this as I have before, give us a Threat level manipulation frame who can actually tank with his face.

[Mrevasivepants]

Every warframe has been designed with it's parts and counterparts:

Mirage: 240 health and 240 shields at level 30, along with 65 armor.

Rhino: (Hell, i'll even use rhino prime) 300 health and 450 shields at level 30 along with a 190 armor.

 

You're comparing warframes for their abilities and not keeping in mind their stats as well, also, yes, valkyr has histeria, but restrained to use melee only, along with a 600 armor and extreme low amount of health and shields.

 

Rhino is good how he is, he is a very good warframe, whether was he designed to be a face tank frame or not, he has everything anyone can ask for(Mobility, Tankyness, Damage buff, and CC) and he's balanced, if not one of the most powerful frame.

 

Excluding abilities aside, and putting in a good survival build, rhino is likely(along with saryn as well maybe) the only warframe who doesn't get 1 hit kill against the nullifiers after 40-50+ mins more in a T4, he still goes down in 2 or 3 shots from that op Lanka, but it still proves my point on how your previous statements are oblique and obsolete.

[Aigloblam]

Aigloblam...

 

rhino with vigor with helmet thrak is 1290/885 hp.

 

Adn 12, 5 mana for 3408 Extra hit point ??? No... 3408 extra hit point it's 37 or 38 mana because blind rage -60% efficiency.

and with these stats you can not put flow or natural talent... and your mana is 150 at lvl 30, with roar buff 2-3 sec ???

 

redirection + vitality + vigor + blind rage (-60% efficiency) + transient fortitude (-27,5% duration) + intensify + streamline + fleeting expertise (-60% duration)

With helmet thrak 1290/885 hp the ferrite is 3408 extra hit point for 37 mana, your roar buff 2-3 sec and you have 150 mana.

It's a good build?? you play rhino like that??

 

go play rhino...

 

"Just another noob wanting op rhino back"...lol i have laugh.

Play rhino is no more noob than playing loki with 30 s invisibility or ash or other frame invincible or with op skill...

Rhino nerf for the invincibility (1 skill because other useless before). Now other frame invincible it's ok

Play Rhino? http://i.imgur.com/qeb8Ab8.jpg

I have. 43 Mil may not stack up to the mountains of XP you undoubtedly have, But i'm sure you can agree that its nothing to laugh at.

Also, I apologize for being bad at math. I just went with maximized values for a tanky build. I perform Genocide, not Calculus.

As it so happens, i use this particular build. http://i.imgur.com/qeb8Ab8.jpg

I use Rhino to level weapons i don't like. Because i can go through about 35-40 min long survivals on Apolodorus and just ignore damage for the most part. If you'll check higher in the thread, I've already stated that i dont go on high level missions anymore, Its just not worth it with the other ways for scaling XP. I CAN take Rhino to end game content, But if its higher than level 70 or so, I'll have to re-mod.

[Aigloblam]

Rhino is sort of an Oddity, He is both Noobframe and Proframe. Noobs love him because he is God over the sub-30 level missions, letting the Noobs just forget about their health and shield for the most part. A lot of "Pros" love him because when modded right, his Mobility is off the charts, and has great utility. When his Stomp damage falls off (Which is pretty early), its still a Hard CC, a Scaling Hard CC at that. Granted, He isnt perfect, but I love him, just as i do (nearly) every single frame out there. Change him or not, I dont care, I'll still play him, make the most out of him, and enjoy it. Just like i do with the rest.

[Holeypaladin]

Why 25 energy cost? for 20 seconds of 75% damage reduction? 

Mirage's eclipse is exactly this.

 

 

But There is no frame that can both Tank AND do the kind of damage that is needed to actually kill things. 

Mirage can tank and do that kind of damage.  Been there done that, got the t-shirt.

 

 

 I urge you, Holeypaladin, to try facetanking with a Shatter-Shield built Mesa or Eclipse built Mirage to try facetanking lvl 100+ enemies.

Done it as Mirage to level 60 enemies.  That's endgame enough for my tastes.  Rhino dies in one or two hits to them, with max strength iron skin up, while Mirage shrugs off bombards at point blank.

 

Everyone who says that level 60 content can't be facetanked and killed at the same time, hasn't played Mirage.  There's a reason I prefer Mirage over Rhino for both facetanking and damage dealing now.  Because she's quite simply a lot better, since Eclipse is so much better than iron skin in every way, and because those mirror images do amazing damage even in the shadow.  To have iron skin act more like it used to is not too much to ask.

 

I laugh at people who call me a noob, though.  It's just proof of the hate towards Rhino, when people consider it a "noob only" frame.

[DrBorris]

Then, let me explain why.

 

First of all, do you even have Mesa? She is very squishy, and her Peacemaker makes her stand in a single spot. She needs that Shatter Shield to negate most ranged damage and her Shooting Galery to stun incoming melee units. These 2 survivability skills are also everything Mesa has after enemies are lvl 60+ since you will be shooting at each enemy for 2+ seconds even with max firerate, so these 2 let her at least stay alive beyond that point.

 

Yes I do have Mesa, 30, potato and a forma. I am not simply advocating the removal of Shatter Shield, I was saying that she needed an entire rework. Yes, in order for Peacemaker to be effective she needs shatter shield. Not every frame is meant to tank. A gunslinger does not tank bullets, a gunslinger avoids bullets. I understand that some like where Mesa is now, and that is why I do not push that much for a rework. I hate that she is the ultimate "press 4 to win" frame. I guess Ash may beat her out, but the fact that the ult for a gunslinger is zero skill drives me crazy. Warframe is not all about facing the enemy head on. There is such thing as cover and strategic placement. A gunslinger should have abilities that capitalize on movement and reward gun play.

 

*feels flame incoming* Mesa should not be a tank and she should not be a immobile turret either. When DE said that a gunslinger was next, I expected a frame that supported gun play more than any other frame and rewarded he player being a sharp shooter, not the player depending on the frame to shoot for them. As of now, Banshee's or Mirage's abilities work better for supporting gun play, Mesa is just another "press 4 to win" kind-of tanky frame. That is why she needs a complete rework IMO, but DE does not like complete reworks, so sucks to be me. 

 

Edit: Did not notice I did not even reply to the OP. Maybe we need to get more creative with Rhino, maybe the true tank should have different abilities. While Rhino Charge may work with his theme, if we really want to have a tank, maybe we should come up with another option. Maybe he stomps the ground and rises an impenetrable ring around him (you can duck below the ring or pop up, face damage, but be able to shoot back) or maybe he absorbs all bullets around him and makes armor out of the material, or maybe he gains super high damage reduction, but faces a massive nerf to speed and becomes an increased priority by enemies.  Those suggestions may suck, but maybe we need to stop with the flat damage reduction or flat addition health pool and come up with something different. (Or just keep it simple, just trying to open up more conversation.)

Edited January 10, 2015 by DrBorris

[Aigloblam]

Mirage's eclipse is exactly this.

 

 

Mirage can tank and do that kind of damage.  Been there done that, got the t-shirt.

 

 

Done it as Mirage to level 60 enemies.  That's endgame enough for my tastes.  Rhino dies in one or two hits to them, with max strength iron skin up, while Mirage shrugs off bombards at point blank.

 

Everyone who says that level 60 content can't be facetanked and killed at the same time, hasn't played Mirage.  There's a reason I prefer Mirage over Rhino for both facetanking and damage dealing now.  Because she's quite simply a lot better, since Eclipse is so much better than iron skin in every way, and because those mirror images do amazing damage even in the shadow.  To have iron skin act more like it used to is not too much to ask.

 

I laugh at people who call me a noob, though.  It's just proof of the hate towards Rhino, when people consider it a "noob only" frame.

 

 

What I'm laughing at is your pathetic inability to play Rhino against level 60 enemies, Thats Childs play. Thats an every day thing for me, and many others. You have done nothing but prove your incompetence. I'm done here, Please come back when you have more knowledge and experience at later levels. I'm done with this.

[Holeypaladin]

Show me a video of you facetanking level 60 enemies as Rhino.  Go ahead.  Prove that it can be done.

 

Compare the time it takes for a level 60 enemy to kill a Rhino through iron skin to the time it takes them to kill Mirage with mirror image and eclipse up in the shadow.  If you have a Rhino build that makes him last longer against direct shots to the face, I'd love to see it.  Otherwise, you're just proving my point, that he's not as good at facetanking as other frames.

[OG-Ash]

the only way i see rhino having a bit more survivability in higher levels is to make iron skin re-castable...so it resets back to 100%? or possible re-cast stacking to a certain amount?

[(PSN)freakyassassin24]

Just to say hysteria is immortal but it comes at a cost of having to go up close to the enemy.

Iron skin gives immortality but with your guns. If he were to have duration based immortality he would be to op and people would only use him.

Also every other person has a disadvantage to the damage reduction. Example: mirage needs to be in the dark, most maps are bright. Mesa only has damage reduction against bullets which means it's useless against infested. Loki invisibility is nowhere near immortality because if you shoot people will shoot at where they heard the shot which means insta-killed

[Holeypaladin]

Every other frame SHOULD have disadvantages to their damage reduction, since they're not primarily tank frames.  Rhino's primary purpose as described in the codex and his signature power is the ability to absorb damage.  But it's weaker than a lot of other damage reduction abilities.  So in his current form, he is underpowered.

 

Iron skin should be the BEST facetank power, not the WORST.  Other frames have different themes, besides shrugging off damage, to work with, such as the massive damage bonus of Mirage's powers, and the shoot everything rapidly theme for Mesa.  Rhino is described as the "Heaviest" warframe, and if you look at him, he looks like he should be virtually indestructible compared to the others.  The fact that he's not means that iron skin needs to be as good or better than the other damage reduction powers, not worse.

 

As long as other damage reduction powers are better than iron skin, Rhino will be underpowered.

[inappropriatename5818]

What I would do is make it a damage reduction skill like Link.   

 

But instead of making it a boring DR I would buff it up a little bit, here's what I have in mind.   

-You can max damage reduction with strenght up to 90-99%?   

-You are still immune to CC and status effects like it currently works  

-It's a timed ability, ~30 seconds base duration that scales with duration (this way Rhino would have to chose if he wants to lose range with narrow minded instead of just stacking strenght, range and efficiency)   

 

 

Now for the BIG ONE - Shields recharge normally when Iron Skin is on   

This means he would still be really strong and he could generally tank up to a certain level with Iron Skin. By "shields recharge normally" I mean they don't have a little delay before regen kicks in, in lower level where enemies can't outdamage shield regen you would be topped off all the time.   

 

Now this MIGHT make him a bit strong, but on the other hand, he would have to mod a lot differently and can't just do everything with 5 mods, you'd have to spec duration, some range, strenght, shields, maybe even fast deflection for better tanking.  

 

Wouldn't be just slapping efficiency and some strenght then just press 2 when Iron skin is down. This way we would actually utilize Rhino's stats instead of just having a pointless shield/health/armor hidden under a sheet of artificial HP

[sanj66]

Rhino can tank T4 easily , dont know where your getting ur info but its wrong , when rhino cant tank anymore its irrelevant , since by that point de dont balance for it.

um have you tried a t4 recently? on the first wave of a t4 intercept a bombard can drop iron skin and take a huge chunk out of his shields in 1 shot,and that is usually around a lvl 35 bombard i believe, if we go by was it your logic on an earlier comment and build him for roar then yo0u would be sacrificing your is build as an is build you would go for cheap or long casts, both killing duration due to using FE. not to mention the change to ferrite armor of iron skin which was honestly plain stupid. also rhino falls off even within the star chart as the change to ferrite. also for roar whats the point when other frames can do it better? why use roar when i can have a nova that can give me 200% damage, cc and bonus chain damage in 1 skill, better team play as she can provide team transport with her wormhole and better damage with her amd, her lone useless skill being null star on all levels. the fact is rhino needs a specialty  not a jack of all trades, if that is how he is kept then he wont really find a place in a team going far as there will be frames to do what he is supposed to do better and make him irrelevant, need a cc frame in the team, loki or nyx, why rhino? need a tank or tanky frame in team, valkyr or trinity, need a damage boost frame nova is better and all these frames offer more.

Edited January 11, 2015 by sanj66

[Holeypaladin]

Nova and Banshee both have abilities better than Roar...  Rhino is meant to be a facetank but he fails at it because iron skin is sub-par compared to other skills like Link, Eclipse, Shatter shield, rift walk, hysteria.

 

So what you have is a frame with a worthless first power (rhino charge sucks), weak second power (iron skin so much weaker than the above mentioned skills), mediocre third power (weaker than m-prime and sonar for group buffs, weaker than eclipse for solo buffs), and mediocre fourth power (low damage, fairly low range, worse at CC than both disarm and m-prime).

 

Sure, a good player can use a mediocre frame if they want... but what's the point when there are so much better frames out there?  All it would take is a change to iron skin to make it duration-based, power-based damage reduction to keep Rhino viable at all levels.  Don't listen to the Rhino haters, listen instead to the people who WANT to play Rhino in his originally intended tank role but feel like it's just not viable anymore.

[vaugahn]

Rhino is meant to be a facetank

 

Huh?

 

Rhino is a bruiser.

 

And Iron Skin is in a good place right now. Your suggestion is bad, to say the least. It doesn't take into account the other factors surrounding the abilities you're comparing.