Bring Back Iron Skin Face Tanking

[Holeypaladin]

Iron skin is in a terrible place, have you compared it to any other damage reducing power in the game?  It's terrible in comparison.  Absolutely horrible.

[Iraetus]

This is what happens when you define a Warframe to one ability only.

 

Rhino/Prime is as balanced as he is. Buffing Iron Skin will just make him the "God Frame" again.

 

You got Rhino Charge for knocking people over / Mobility / He also immune while doing this.

Iron Skin for that extra juice for survival. Plus it has knockdown immunity and Status immunity to most attacks. Plus it also allows his shields to regenerate.

Roar as a damage buff for the whole party.

Rhino Stomp which knocks everyone down and makes them trapped in stasis.

 

 

He is one of the frames that all of his abilities can be used and are not entirely useless. 

[RealPandemonium]

yeah we need more abilities that make you immortal

[RoosterTheRed]

I main as a Rhino Prime. I've spent hundreds of hours running, sliding, jumping, and slashing my way across DE's solar system. 

 

I also main melee weapons, which means that I can't pop in and out of cover while shooting my enemies from afar. I must get close to them to kill them. 

 

 

I have a fully maxed Blind Rage and an Intensify to upgrade Iron Skin. My charge and roar suck because I also have to have efficiency to counter Blind Rage. I also have maxed Redirection, but no health/armor mods to speak of. I have an Arcane Vanguard, and Rush with Quick Rest. The result is a good shield (Iron Skin,) and a VERY fast movement speed. 

 

The problem is, if I were any slower (running and sliding helps avoid enemy fire,) I wouldn't be as effective. If you get caught out in the open surrounded by enemies of any significant level, your Iron Skin is going to go down fast. And then you'll be dead, because Rhino isn't the best at health/shields/armor anyway. 
 

I've spent a ton of cores and credits to make my Rhino Prime this good. And he is good, honestly. Even without the movement speed (without the Vanguard), he'd still be pretty good. 

 

I use to be able to solo T4 Survival easily, though the introduction of Bombards and Nullifiers in the void has made it much more difficult. 

 

And many people are correct in saying that if Iron Skin were better, Rhino would be a god. So the ONLY method I can suggest in "buffing"  Rhino is the ability to re-cast Iron Skin while it's still active. 

 

 

Or perhaps an augment that makes it so that the slower you go, the stronger your Iron Skin is. That'd help your face-tank issue without making us speed demons godlike. 

[Holeypaladin]

I mained as Rhino for a long time... and the moment I try Mirage, I see just how much better she is than Rhino, at everything.  Damage dealing tanking, the works.  Rhino is at best mediocre... it's not on the top tier of frames, and definitely inferior to a lot of other frames out there.  "good enough to work" does not mean "good enough to be preferrable over something else" when that something else is obviously better.

 

All-purpose warframes like the current Rhino just... tend to be sub-par at everything they do.  Iron skin is sub-par compared to eclipse, roar is sub-par compared to m-prime, rhino stomp is sub-par compared to m-prime and radial disarm.  Nothing that Rhino has can be considered top level, as there's something better available in every single category.

 

Unless DE is  trying to make multiple tiers of warframes as well as multiple tiers of weapons, there shouldn't be any warframes that are blatantly superior to everything else.  Make everything awesome.  Rhino is not awesome anymore, since other frames are way better at everything Rhino does.

[SIDESTRE4M]

Iron Skin makes Rhino ingnore all CC. Yes, pretty underpowered.

 

(Not mentioning the whole package of a pretty beefy frame with good CC and dmg support that on top can be one of the fastest as well)

 

Honestly...

[Taranis49]

Huh?

 

Rhino is a bruiser.

 

And Iron Skin is in a good place right now. Your suggestion is bad, to say the least. It doesn't take into account the other factors surrounding the abilities you're comparing.

 

As somebody who's mained a Rhino since U7, I don't agree with the OP on a lot, but he's actually not wrong that Rhino was designed as the "tank" frame that could absorb punishment better than the rest.

 

Note that after his rework way back, the first iterations of the Post-Nerf Iron Skin did actually draw enemy aggro.

 

Of course, that aspect got chucked when we (rightly) pointed out that IS no longer had enough oomph to ever be anything other than a liability by the time you hit the later planets while also drawing a bullseye on your face and for whatever reason and DE seemed allergic to the idea of a percentage-based IS that could actually scale.

 

Regardless, it's pretty clear what the original design intent was - this was the frame that was supposed to keep on truckin' after eating enemy bullets that'd find his squishier squaddies otherwise.

 

Don't get me wrong, I've taken mine to over an hour in T4 survival, so sure, it's perfectly usable... just not in anything resembling the role it was intended to serve.

Edited January 11, 2015 by Taranis49

[Holeypaladin]

Rhino's speed is .9.  Rhino prime's speed is 1.  Arcane vanguard helmet is NOT available in the game anymore, so Rhino CAN'T be referred to as a "fast" frame when he's actually slow.  Factor out arcane vanguard helm which is no longer available, and you have a slow frame with a weak ability to give him a few artificial hp that go away in one hit at high level, a weak damage boost which is vastly inferior to every other damage boost in the game, and a fairly weak temporary CC ability that only lasts 8 seconds with low damage dealing ability, and doesn't work on bosses anymore.

 

How is that a good package?  I'm fine keeping the others powers as they are, so long as iron skin makes up for their weakness.

[sanj66]

This is what happens when you define a Warframe to one ability only.

 

Rhino/Prime is as balanced as he is. Buffing Iron Skin will just make him the "God Frame" again.

 

You got Rhino Charge for knocking people over / Mobility / He also immune while doing this.

Iron Skin for that extra juice for survival. Plus it has knockdown immunity and Status immunity to most attacks. Plus it also allows his shields to regenerate.

Roar as a damage buff for the whole party.

Rhino Stomp which knocks everyone down and makes them trapped in stasis.

 

 

He is one of the frames that all of his abilities can be used and are not entirely useless. 

thats in a perfect world, you cannot have all 4 together, he isnt like loki where you can build everything and end up with basically no downfall to another power, if you are building is, your charge n roar suffers, same if you build efficiency for stomp, and if you build duration for roar or charge, is suffers and stomp efficiency as well depending on how you go about it. also tbh charge is one of the skills you class with null star almost useless.

[CTanGod]

I believe the best thing to do with Iron Skin is to have it keep it's hp but be simple hp and have it take 50% less dmg from all sources affectable by power strength to a cap of 75%. This way Iron Skin isn't 100% op cause high level enemies will still take care of it pretty fast. Also ignoring CC and status isn't all that great because all the CCs of the enemies are easy to avoid and the only Eximus auras that proc now are the toxic ones of whom's ticks don't do that much dmg (unless you keep him around for a long time).

[Holeypaladin]

I believe the best thing to do with Iron Skin is to have it keep it's hp but be simple hp and have it take 50% less dmg from all sources affectable by power strength to a cap of 75%. This way Iron Skin isn't 100% op cause high level enemies will still take care of it pretty fast. Also ignoring CC and status isn't all that great because all the CCs of the enemies are easy to avoid and the only Eximus auras that proc now are the toxic ones of whom's ticks don't do that much dmg (unless you keep him around for a long time).

That would still leave it weaker than every other damage reduction power in the game.  So no, it's not enough of a boost.

 

If it's not close to the same level as Eclipse, Rhino is not worth using as a facetank over Mirage.  Simple as that.

[Iraetus]

thats in a perfect world, you cannot have all 4 together, he isnt like loki where you can build everything and end up with basically no downfall to another power, if you are building is, your charge n roar suffers, same if you build efficiency for stomp, and if you build duration for roar or charge, is suffers and stomp efficiency as well depending on how you go about it. also tbh charge is one of the skills you class with null star almost useless.

That's your problem if you compare him to Loki if in terms of how to build him. Maximizing something won't stop you from using what you already have.

[Holeypaladin]

I honestly don't see the problem with making iron skin a better skill.  It won't make people who like other frames use them any less.  It certainly wouldn't make Rhino replace Mirage when it comes to weapon damage dealing, Valkyr when it comes to melee invincibility, Mesa when it comes to gunslinging, Trinity when it comes to team buffing, Nova and Banshee when it comes to damage buffing.

 

Rhino wouldn't replace any of those frames in those roles if iron skin was improved.  All it would do is make people who want to use Rhino use him more, while people who prefer those other abilities would still use those frames.

 

Seriously, what's the harm in letting Rhino tank?  There are other frames who can tank, why not Rhino?  Stop hating on Rhino and just let the Rhino lovers have their iron skin buff.

[vaugahn]

Seriously, what's the harm in letting Rhino tank?  There are other frames who can tank, why not Rhino?  Stop hating on Rhino and just let the Rhino lovers have their iron skin buff.

 

I think you're misinterpreting why people are against this idea.

[Holeypaladin]

They want Rhino to be more fragile than Mirage and Trinity?  Why?  That makes no sense.

Edited January 11, 2015 by Holeypaladin

[Iraetus]

No.

 

We didn't say that.

 

We said Rhino is as balanced as he is.

[Holeypaladin]

By saying "iron skin doesn't need to be buffed" you are in essence saying "Rhino should be weaker than mirage, trinity, Mesa, and Valkyr."

 

That is simple logic.  Iron skin is inferior to all of their damage reduction abilities.  Therefore, Rhino is more fragile than all of them.  Therefore, by saying Rhino should remain where he is, you are saying that Rhino should be more fragile than all of them.

 

And it doesn't make sense to me why Rhino should be more fragile than anything when his concept is "slow heavy frame that is virtually impossible to kill".

Edited January 11, 2015 by Holeypaladin

[Iraetus]

Eh meh ged.

 

Its like you are saying that Volt shield should be 360 degrees because Snow Globe is or Snow Globe should also add cold damage because Volt shield add's electrical damage.

 

 

And no. By me, saying Iron Skin should not be buffed is because Rhino is okay as he is. He can do lots of stuff already, he can support, he can CC, he can survive if used properly. 

[Holeypaladin]

So you are ok with Rhino being more fragile than other frames.  You must not be a big Rhino fan.

 

I am not ok with Rhino being more fragile than so many other frames.  I want it to be as hard to kill as any other frame in the game.  Because he's Rhino.

 

Volt shield is fine, he was never intended as a tank.  Rhino was intended as a tank, so he is not fine being so not-tanky as he is.

[Iraetus]

So you are ok with Rhino being more fragile than other frames.  You must not be a big Rhino fan.

 

idk, my Frost has 399 armor and Rhino should have too. idk what you're doing wrong.

 

Plus, so what if I'm not a Rhino Fan, or a Loki fan, or a Volt fan, or an Excal fan.

 

 

 

Its about Balance

 

Iron Skin ignores most of the procs and knockdowns too. What more could you ask for?

 

 

Would you be happy if the other way around happened? If Mirage, Trinity, Mesa or Valkyr was nerfed below Rhino's level. I am not making a very clever argument but a at least Rhino would be now better than all of them. But this is not the case, I told you, he is fine as he is,

[RoosterTheRed]

Perhaps an easy fix would be to buff Iron Skin, but make it so that it decreases his movement speed drastically, as well as draw more enemy aggro. 

 

Back when Warframe was released, Rhino was easily the tankiest frame. Now, he's been usurped from that role, and now I believe he's tied in 4th place as "tankiest frame" with Frost. 

 

I do indeed wish he could become the tankiest frame once more, as it fits his persona and modus operandi, but it must be kept in mind that we do not wish him to be a god frame. 

[Holeypaladin]

399 armor is nothing.  Armor does virtually nothing to increase survivability, unless you have over 600 like Valkyr.

 

I never ask for any nerfs, I only ask that a frame be buffed up to the level it belongs when I find it lacking in its supposed specialty.  Ignoring procs and knockdowns is worthless when a single hit from a high level enemy takes it down.  It needs to last long enough for that invulnerability to knockdowns to actually mean something, while still providing enough resistance to make Rhino something other than flimsy.

 

Rhino is NOT balanced, in its current form, when it can't even perform its primary purpose of tanking.  When "squishy" frames like Mirage tank better than Rhino, it means Rhino is not balanced anywhere near the level of Mirage.

 

Frost needs buffs as well, but this topic isn't about Frost.  It's about how iron skin sucks as a damage reduction ability compared to every other damage reduction ability in the game.

[Iraetus]

399 armor is nothing.  Armor does virtually nothing to increase survivability, unless you have over 600 like Valkyr.

 

I never ask for any nerfs, I only ask that a frame be buffed up to the level it belongs when I find it lacking in its supposed specialty.  Ignoring procs and knockdowns is worthless when a single hit from a high level enemy takes it down.  It needs to last long enough for that invulnerability to knockdowns to actually mean something, while still providing enough resistance to make Rhino something other than flimsy.

 

Rhino is NOT balanced, in its current form, when it can't even perform its primary purpose of tanking.  When "squishy" frames like Mirage tank better than Rhino, it means Rhino is not balanced anywhere near the level of Mirage.

 

Frost needs buffs as well, but this topic isn't about Frost.  It's about how iron skin sucks as a damage reduction ability compared to every other damage reduction ability in the game.

 

Plus the description for Rhino is - The Heaviest Warframe with Offensive and Defensive Capabilities. It didn't say that he is a tank. It didn't say anywhere at all.

 

I will play your game, I am a Frost fan.

 

If you want a face tanking build, there is one. You just have to search the net for one, you could pretty much face tank with him until 40+ minutes in Survival. And I admit that he can face tank better than Frost and he does Frost's job of supposedly CC-ing better.

[Holeypaladin]

Read  the codex entry on Rhino.  It describes him blocking bullets with his face.  That there says that he is meant as a facetank frame.

 

There isn't a Rhino build in the world that can bring him up to Mirage's level of damage reduction.  Even with max efficiency and max strength, you'd still be casting iron skin every few seconds in T4, whereas Eclipse you can cast once every 50 seconds for only 25 energy per cast and have a superior effect.

 

Frost and Rhino both need to be made more durable, on the same level of Mirage, but this topic is specifically about Rhino and Iron Skin.  Frost needs a complete rework, in my opinion, but Rhino can be corrected with one ability.

[Iraetus]

Read  the codex entry on Rhino.  It describes him blocking bullets with his face.  That there says that he is meant as a facetank frame.

 

There isn't a Rhino build in the world that can bring him up to Mirage's level of damage reduction.  Even with max efficiency and max strength, you'd still be casting iron skin every few seconds in T4, whereas Eclipse you can cast once every 50 seconds for only 25 energy per cast and have a superior effect.

 

I stand corrected then.

 

But face tanking is not just about Damage Reduction in this game but your Iron Skin helps this face tanking build a lot if you really just want to face tank. I can face tank for my friends and clannies if you ask them. And no, Frost doesn't need to be as durable as Mirage. 

Edited January 11, 2015 by Issence