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Jax_Cavalera

Tactic Selections - Putting A Stop To Macro Farming, Rng And Grind Walls

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Refining the Concept : Tactic Selections

Overview of Tactic Selections as a Solution to the problem

Tactic Selections will put the choice of play style back into the hands of the players without rewarding specific approaches to the game (aka Ability Spam or P42W) any better than other tactics like stealth or Primary Weapons Only etc.

The concept is designed to remove the viability of Macro Farmers who are the only demographic benefiting from Ability Nerfs without removing/reducing Grind Walls and RNG Chance Odds.

Both of the above are achievable with this approach and it requires minimal changes to the game for it to be implemented.

Oh and to be very clear, this approach is designed to encourage freedom in play style as an alternative to just NERFING which is nothing short of a band-aid fix that FAILS to address the cause of this problem.

How does Tactic Selections Work?

1. At the start of a Mission, the Squad vote on a Tactic from the list of options specific to their desired Node.


- Hosts vote counts for 2 points and Clients count as 1 point so there is a tie-breaker with preference going to the player that is supplying the key/hosting the squad session.



2. The mission starts up like normal with a slight tweak to the UI/HUD :


- A percentage value is displayed to give the player an indication of how much of the mission so far has been completed using their chosen tactic. *If it were Stealth, then each time they are spotted by enemies, this percentage would be lowered*

- Text that displays the chosen tactic is also shown in a visible area of the UI/HUD so all party members can see what approach they are meant to be using.

- Possible Upgrade could be that each time a player performs an action that may cause their percentage to lower a Red warning flashes near where the Chosen Tactic is being Displayed on the UI/HUD.

*Primaries Only, player takes out their secondary weapon and they see the Red warning flashing till they put it away* Stealth, player takes out a weapon that is not silent and the warning flashes.




3. On Claim/Extraction the Squad gain XP & Rewards based on what percentage of a mission was completed using the selected Tactic.


- XP for kills would be removed from the game as this will resolve the problem of trying to Micro Balance every new element added to the game and how it can potentially unbalance a previously well balanced ecosystem.

- No longer would mass murder be the only way to advance the quickest in this game.

- XP would be different for every Tactic and would be balanced based on statistics gathered over time dynamically adjusting.
e.g :

* figures may not reflect the reality but are just as an example *:

Stealth Tactic on a node takes 2 Minutes to complete the mission on average.
Abilities Only Tactic on the same node takes 1 Minute to complete the mission on average.

Stealth Tactic would reward 2x the Experience Points per run since you can complete Abilities Only Tactic twice in the same time you can complete Stealth Tactic once.



- Completing a mission with less than a 50% Tactic Reliance would result in not receiving the bonus reward.
e.g :

If the mission normally awarded 10,000 xp per run and the squad/solo player only achieved a 25% Tactic Reliance they would walk away with 2500 xp and no reward (special mod, prime part, blueprint etc..)




4. Each Tactic would provide a unique Bonus Reward


- To receive all possible Bonus Rewards (Prime Parts, Rare Mods, Blueprints etc..) a player would need to complete each tactic option with over 50% Tactic Reliance.

- By splitting possible mission/node rewards up this way we can eliminate the RNG Casino Element out of Warframe without hurting Plat Sales since players will still use Platinum Purchases/Trades to obtain rewards that they can't get from various Tactics they find too challenging to complete for any number of reasons :

(no gear that is stealthy except a weak skana, no strong primary or secondary, unranked frames with poor low tier abilities in the context of the mission, incorrect frames unsuitable for the type of mission which has abilities only as a tactic etc..)




5. Instead of rewarding players with Rep based on kills, Syndicate Rep is now based on Tactic Reliance percentage.


In the context of Endless Missions :


At the end of a Rotation, if the Tactic Reliance percentage is above 50% then that Rotation Reward is added to the Claim/Extraction Rewards List.

XP is also added on a per Rotation Basis to the Claim/Extraction List.

XP being added would be based on the Tactic Reliance percentage and Balance Multiplier of the selected Tactic

To get the XP and Rewards, the squad would need to Claim or make their way to Extraction Successfully.




----------------------------------------------------------
Tactic Selections For Each Gamemode :
----------------------------------------------------------

 

Each node starts with a basic Free For All Tactic which allows anything and everything to be used to complete the node.  The reward for this approach would be the weakest and it would also provide a lower rate of XP / Rep per run.

 

Defense :


☆ First, Second and Third Abilities + Melee
☆ Fourth Ability + Melee

☆ Primary Weapons Only
☆ Secondary Weapons Only
☆ Melee Only

☆ Stun Kills (Enemy must be stunned at the time of death)
☆ Demolition (Explosive Kills Only Includes things like a charged Nova Antimatter Drop...must be shot at least once to count)

Ideas that are still under consideration or would require extra work to include :

☆ Blinding Slaughter - Clear waves by killing enemies that are unable to see due to being blinded. (there are a lot of warframes with the ability to blind enemies.)

Cleansing - Clear waves by killing enemies whilst they are standing over Oberon - Hallowed Ground or have emerged from Hydroid - Undertow pool.

(These examples would involve at least 1 squad member owning a compatible warframe to complete the Tactic. Would be a cool way of encouraging players to give other frames a go.)


☆ Executions (Knockdown Enemies then Kill with Primary or Secondary)

knockdowns can be achieved via CC abilities like Pull etc as well as ground slams with melee weapon. Players would need to choose melee weapons with low damage so they do not accidentally kill the enemy whilst attempting to knock them down.

☆ Close Combat (Weapons Only - Defend staying within X distance of the pod)
** timer between waves could increase a little to allow players time to collect loot and get back before the new wave starts so they are not punished unfairly.**

☆ Camping (Weapons Only - Defend keeping X distance from the pod)

Concern regarding this options as it could be difficult to pick off all enemies whilst keeping distance to the pod. I can agree that adding this one in would require more work than the other options since players would need some kind of feedback about when they are getting too close to the pod or when it is ok to get close to the pod to collect loot in between waves etc.


Not sure if this would be offered as an initial Tactic for the reason that it would require additional work to add into the game.


 

Mobile Defense :

☆ First, Second and Third Abilities + Weapons
☆ Fourth Ability + Weapons

☆ Primary Weapons Only
☆ Secondary Weapons Only
☆ Melee Only

☆ Stun Kills (Enemy must be stunned at the time of death)
☆ Demolition (Explosive Kills Only Includes things like a charged Nova Antimatter Drop...must be shot at least once to count)

☆ Line of Defense  (Keep enemies 15m from the Terminals whilst they are being hacked by Lotus)

☆ Guard the VIP  (Ensure the player carrying the Data-Mass takes NO damage when holding it)

 



Interception :

☆ First, Second and Third Abilities + Weapons
☆ Fourth Ability + Weapons

☆ Primary Weapons Only
☆ Secondary Weapons Only
☆ Melee Only

☆ Stun Kills  (Enemy must be stunned at the time of death)
☆ Demolition  (Explosive Kills Only Includes things like a charged Nova Antimatter Drop...must be shot at least once to count)

☆ Hold the Fort  (No more than 1 Squad Member can be within a 25m Radius of each Tower)  **excludes downed members with a 5 second grace period after reviving a downed player to get out of range**

 

☆ Close Call  (Only 2 Towers can be held by the squad at the same time...No 4th Abilities Allowed)  **players are allowed to keep additional towers Neutral but not Captured**



Survival :


☆ First, Second and Third Abilities + Weapons
☆ Fourth Ability + Weapons

☆ Primary Weapons Only
☆ Secondary Weapons Only
☆ Melee Only

☆ Stun Kills  (Enemy must be stunned at the time of death)
☆ Demolition  (Explosive Kills Only Includes things like a charged Nova Antimatter Drop...must be shot at least once to count)

☆ Oxygen Surplus  (Keep oxygen levels above 40%)

☆ Unused Aid  (All life support provided by the Lotus remains unused for the duration of the mission so the squad gets by using personal life support dropped from mobs)

☆ Shared Kills  (All Squad Members must hold the same % of damage dealt within a 10% margin of error before reductions to Tactical Reliance occur

 

Spy :


☆ First, Second and Third Abilities + Weapons
☆ Fourth Ability + Weapons

☆ Primary Weapons Only
☆ Secondary Weapons Only
☆ Melee Only

☆ Stun Kills  (Enemy must be stunned at the time of death)

☆ Speed Raid  (Players must hack each terminal within 3 minutes of the previous terminal being hacked)

☆ Coordination  (All terminals must be hacked within 30 seconds of each other)

☆ Stealth Kills Only

☆ Camera Shy  (All cameras in the level must be destroyed prior to extraction .. would need a counter perhaps to show remaining cameras)



Excavation :



☆ First, Second and Third Abilities + Weapons
☆ Fourth Ability + Weapons

☆ Primary Weapons Only
☆ Secondary Weapons Only
☆ Melee Only

☆ Keep all active Extractors at 50% Power

☆ Slow Play - Only 1 active Extractor at a time

☆ Speed Run - 2 or more Extractors must be active within a 60 second gap of each other.  

(Once the first Extractor is activated, a second one must be activated within 60 seconds time.  When the first Extractor completes or is destroyed, the squad have 60 seconds to activate a new second Extractor / Exit the Mission)



Sabotage - Void :


☆ First, Second and Third Abilities + Weapons
☆ Fourth Ability + Weapons

☆ Primary Weapons Only
☆ Secondary Weapons Only
☆ Melee Only

☆ Kill Venkra and Sprag within 30 Seconds of each other.  (Would require half a squad to focus on each so that it becomes a coordinated effort)

☆ Delegation / Commando  (Delegation = Squad   Commando = Solo alternative for the same claim reward)

 

Commando = All Caches must be found and opened before entering the "Portal" room.

Delegation = A unique member of the squad must open each cache and the 4th member must kill the Assassination Target

 

☆ Thieves Goal - All breakable storage containers must be broken prior to extraction  (would require a counter possibly?)

☆ Swift Execution  (Squad must find, kill and get back out of the "Portal" zone within 2 minutes  -  timer starts the moment the first squad member walks through the portal)

☆ Stealth  (Locate all Caches and Kill the Assassination targets without triggering any alarms)



Sabotage - Core :


-



Sabotage - Grineer Toxic Plant :


-



Exterminate :


☆ Executions (Knockdown Enemies then Kill with Primary or Secondary)
☆ Finishers (Similar to Executions but using Melee Only)



Deception :


-



Capture :


-



Hijack :


-



Assassination - could be difficult as each boss lends to unique tactics better than others and some tactics trivialize them completely and would be left out so you can only use those via FFA mode.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This concept is still being developed and fleshed out so I will continue to update it as we discuss further ways of improving it and arrive at agreed upon amendments.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


================>> Way of the Shinobi (aka Skill Kills) <<================

Each of the following would award bonus XP similar to how the new Stealth Kill Bonuses work as of Stealth 2.0


Feel free to suggest more ideas and as they are positively discussed by the community I will add them to this list.

1. Wall Running Headshot

2. Uncloaked Stealth Melee Kill

3. Falling Firearm Kill (excludes continuous Fire weapons like syanoid gammacor and blast weapons like Angstrum) Must be from a height greater than 2m (normal jump height)

4. Headshot Speed Kill (5 enemies Abilities Don't Count)

5. Shishkabob Kill (Kill 5 enemies with a single Arrow,Bolt or Punchthrough Bullet)

6. Accuracy Bonus (unload a full clip of rounds without any bullet missing - excludes single shot clip weapons like Bows and AoE Weapons like Ogris)

7. Airborne Melee Kills (Achieve the kill with a melee weapon - similar to Falling Firearm Kill but with melee)

8. Counter Attack Kill (When a player parries a melee attack from an opponent they are often given a finisher prompt. This should be rewarded as it takes a certain level of skill to perform with regularity.





Below is the archive of where the topic started at and how we arrived at the current destination :

First 8 Pages of replies were made in regards to the following :

Initially the title of the topic was : Why De And Some Players Have A Problem With Using Warframe Abilities To Win

Which started the discussion of feedback regarding this and quickly progressed to identifying the underlying problem. The initial OP is now contained below for those who wish to catch up and make sense of responses in the initial stages of the topic :

As the title suggests, I feel that all this talk about 'pressing 4 to win' or 'homers' drinking bird' present a confusing case to the game.

Warframe is the combination of 2 things : War (fights) & Frame (the toolset used to fight). So from the outset we are expecting a game that relies on fighting using different frames.

What sets each frame apart the most? Abilities!

So with this in mind, what is with the sudden attitude of discouraging players from relying on their abilities to win? Isn't that what sets this game apart from the rest?

You would think instead of introducing enemies that remove your abilities, we would start to see more enemies that also have abilities to provide a real challenge and keep the focus on what makes this game Unique and what the name hints the gameplay will be based around.

Now I understand that players farming enemies with elite and well synergizing 4 player squads can be seen as a dull way to play a game if you all pile into a room and mash at 1,2,3,4 all day long or worse macro it.

Perhaps this activity is not the real issue as we have seen each time new measures are taken to prevent it, players find a way to do it again. Perhaps the real problem is not with players bashing their ultimate like a pez dispenser but about why they feel the need to even do this.


So why do players farm?

- To get gear they can trade for platinum
- To get resources so they can build things
- To gain Mastery by maxing out gear (mastery fodder)
- So they have parts they can exchange for Dukets (Duckets)
Etc...

The game has progressively gained a larger grind wall attitude but this is also the main reason why players keep finding ways to get through the walls so fast.

Is the grind wall system really the best path for Warframe? Looking at games that do not constantly pump out new gear for players to grind after it is clear that a playerbase can be secured and entertained via alternative approaches.

FPS (first person shooter) games rely on a number of factors which all come back to skill.

## Imagine if in warframe we were being opposed by more advanced enemies that were rogue frames on the payroll of the Grineer, Corpus or Competitors for the same objectives.

Player abilities would not be the issue now as the way we play the game would need to change and focus on our skills instead of being mostly reliant on having the best gear.

Solar Rails give us a window into what this could be like but as they are not very rewarding to players when there is little to no battle pay being offered, they have a little incentive in this currently pure grind driven game.


RTS (Real Time Strategy) games have managed to hold players captivated for over a very long time and yet they offer the player everything the game has to offer very quickly in a multiplayer context.

RTS games keep player interest levels high the same way chess does : Using your available moves and resources to out smart or overpower the enemy.

## Enemies that run on a script and rely on pathfinding will usually become easy to overcome once the new 'patterns' are studied and documented. At that point it all boils down to the most effective strategy for cleaning them up and exploiting the weakspots in their navigation routes etc.

Sounds Familiar? It should because this is exactly what happens in warframe since our major enemies are AI and lack enough random actions that the players find it impossible to produce a single Most Effective Strategy. RTS games have plenty of unique strategies and each one has a good counter strategy to fight it.

If warframe focused more on enemies that dynamically adapted to effectively combat player situations, we would be so entertained by this that the need to grind so much for rng after rng just to get mastery to grind for syndicates to sell for plat to buy more space to grind for more Mastery...that boring and awful cycle of uncreative, macro inducing gameplay could be avoided without losing the most fun and key game elements that we love.

Imagine enemies that realise..OMG.. the enemy are in a tiny room or corner mashing their ultimate abilities over and over...let's perhaps not keep zombie walking in to say hi to them?? Instead the call in their own Frames on their payroll as backup who just like stalker, cause the macro mashing to stop so the first real threat in the game can be taken down.

Of cause 4v1 is not really fair and also an enemy like Stalker..immune to most player abilities is not that exciting either. Perhaps if it eere more like Specters who are Less effected by abilities..that could be a step in the right direction...but Nullifiers and Healers that completely reduce warframes to simple grunts with very heavy guns..This is only going to perpetuate the problem, not fix it and even improve gameplay experiences.


So to summarize what is likely a great wall of text :

If the focuses of gameplay mechanics were less about grinding for Plat and more about introducing enemies that challenge player abilities (instead of removing them) we would likely see less incentives to macro all day long as getting the gear is no longer what keeps players hooked on Warframe. The focus would now be on how the gear is used. Leaderboards would actually mean something instead of being an indication of which players have found the best ways to exploit the pathfinding and basic enemy AI. It would better represent which players are most adept at using their warframes' skills and can make fast paced strategic decissions in the heat of combat.

Do other players think this way or do the majority of players enjoy what Warframe has become..A game that is now attacking the very things which make it unique instead of fixing the REASON why these unique aspects of the game are causing issues?



So the discussion has progressed well and it brought me to realize that we wont easily find solutions to players speed grinding via ability spam whilst the only real goal of the game is to grind.


The following was then considered :


To help break the grinder mentality we need to consider the game without grinding and then discuss new gameplay elements in this context.

I'm not saying I think DE need to remove grinding out of the game completely but just for the purposes of the discussion let's imagine they had.

How would you keep players interested in Warframe if they had access to everything we currently grind for (frames, weapons, mods, syndicate rewards) from the moment they start playing?

Answers to that question that don't involve grinding will bring us closer to real solutions as I don't believe ability spam is the problem, the issue is that currently we have a really good reason to want/need to ability spam.



The responses to this influenced the following approach which I would like to open up for further feedback and improvement :

1. Reduce power and grind equally till grind and RNG are no longer the only real goal/enemy left to beat.

2. Look at ways to replace grind completely so DE can still earn revenue without frustrating the players into buying platinum.

I had read elsewhere and then mentioned the idea of optional subscriptions for non game breaking perks but there are valid concerns with this which were listed.

Do you have a good idea for a way to encourage plat sales without grind walls?

3. Once the grind is reduced or removed, players will have less incentive to spam kill enemies with abilities. There will be an increase in variety of gameplay styles. Rewarding players for various gameplay styles differently could also be a thing.

If the squad spends the majority of a mission in 2 adjacent rooms they get rewards for "holding the fort"

If the squad spends that time in separate rooms they might get a different reward for completing it as "Ultimate Scouts"

If they stick together as they move around the map the reward is unique again and labeled "Rogue Destroyers" or something.

Based on how you beat the map and what label your approach earns.. determines which reward you get. So to get all possible rewards you would have to try every approach and win.

This would still be grind sure but not RNG grind. Squads could even choose what approach they want to try for when they start a mission. Depending on the mission as to how many varieties there would be.

4. Introduce Weak Zones or Hit Spots as AlphaHorseman suggested and this means AoE powers would hurt enemies without being the quickest way to kill them. Targeting the specific weak points would result in higher damage dealt.

Banshee Sonar could enlarge these areas instead of creating random ones and this would also help players learn where to aim.

Once the game is in this stage I believe ability spam would not be an issue any more..or less of an issue worst case scenario and players would be taking the time to enjoy all that Warframe has to offer instead of room camping spamming. Whilst still giving them the option to play this way as well but only getting the same reward each time they win.

Each completion method could be also tailored to work for solo mode as well so those on weaker connections wouldn't be made to suffer.


Getting variety in rewards requires variety in gameplay approaches.

What are your thoughts on this? Would it reduce ability spam and if not, how could it be improved?



Over the course of the discussion there are 3 main problems with Ability Spam that have been highlighted :


1. It can dominate other tactics in Public games

I believe that this can be resolved by better handling how recruiting and match-making works.

- If a host has their match-making mode set to Invite Only or Friends Only then random players are not able to join their games.

- The match-making mode for a squad needs to be clearly displayed for all squad members to see so they know what they are getting into and civil communication can occur before a problem has a chance to occur.

By using the tools that we are provided and with the above 2 changes being put in place, I believe that it will then become something that the individual will have control over completely. Through the use of effective and civil communication, the recruiting channel and match-making settings; players will have proper control over their gameplay experience and have the freedom to play using any tactics they wish to use without being dominated or forced to adapt.

Currently if any member of a squad have their match-making mode set to public, randoms can join the game and deploy tactics that are counter productive the anything the original squad had previously discussed and agreed upon prior to launching the mission.


2. It enables Macro Farming which results in DE taking drastic measures that hurt the entire community instead of those automating their game.

We need to provide some answers and provide DE with solutions that we as a community can be happy with that deal with the problem so we avoid the frequent rash and drastic measures that are slapped onto the game to attempt resolving the issue but instead just cause more problems.

These band-aid fixes are hurting the community by turning away players from the game out of rage. A community that reduces with very poor band-aid fix doesn't benefit any one still here.


3. Because Ability Spam is the most effective way to farm, it becomes the only viable approach to keep up with the leader boards and top tier players.

I don't think that we should reduce the effectiveness of Ability Spam to fix this problem. I believe that we need to look at ways of making alternative tactics just as effective at progressing through the game.




To move forwards with the topic and progress the following are to be considered :


A. Need to consider better ways of increasing enemy difficulty than by buffs or giving them the power to remove ALL warframe abilities.

- Introduce Weak Zones or Hit Spots as AlphaHorseman suggested. This means AoE powers which don't directly target weak spots would still deal damage but with a reduced effectiveness. Targeting the specific weak points would result in higher damage dealt.

(This is very similar to what Critical Hit Damage does, except that AoE powers are very effective even though they are not landing critical hits)

What other approaches could work well?


B. Need to consider better game modes that can be introduced to increase variety in game play for Endless game modes. These new modes would be designed so ability spamming won't be the only way to secure a victory.

- Currently we find the same game modes being repeated on every planet and even in the void and archwing missions. We need more variety in endless game modes that would each focus on rewarding unique tactics instead of all being automated by macro ability spam.

What game modes can you come up with that would not rely or promote ability spam to win?


C. Idea for PvP upgrades has potential to reduce the motive that drives players to Ability Spam activities by taking Rep out of regular PvE missions and bringing it into PvP only contexts.

- Need a solution for players who lack connectivity to handle PvP.

Syndicate Missions could be that solution along with the medallions. So long as Rep is not tied to XP in normal missions this should put an end to Macro Farmers there.


D. We can't have grinding for XP as the driving force of PvE.. The Driving goals of PvE should be challenging mission types and good (useful and predictable) extraction rewards.

If we keep XP and Rep PvP it will encourage dynamic gameplay tactics since the enemies can be just as smart as the player because they are also players.

What are your thoughts on this as a part of the overall solution?


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Because it's really boring, then you just stay in one place and press one button.

Or your enemies lose their weapons and minds altogether.

Or you can facetank every single shot in your face.

 

It's almost the same level of "boring", when you can press LMB and one-shot every enemy on the map with Boltor P.

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Start at the top, because you missed the point with the "homer's drinking bird" thing.

 

The problem is not abilities.

 

The problem is ability spam. 

 

There's nothing wrong with players using their abilities, however there is something wrong with an Excal and a Trinity standing in one spot and tapping a number key for 15 minutes.

 

Edit: and the reason enemies are countering players is because players are not balanced. So there's that as well.

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Start at the top, because you missed the point with the "homer's drinking bird" thing.

 

The problem is not abilities.

 

The problem is ability spam. 

 

There's nothing wrong with players using their abilities, however there is something wrong with an Excal and a Trinity standing in one spot and tapping a number key for 15 minutes.

i agree,variety is the lifeblood of the game,and to reduce it with     ability spam as you described,drains life from the game

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Why give players rediculous energy reserves to be able to spam abilities then.. if spamming them is the real problem? Do you see how contradictory these things are?

We get Primed Flow.. yet are being told ability spam is bad? In the right context I have no problem with ability spam but current enemies do not provide this context as highlighted in the Opening Post.

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Why give players rediculous energy reserves to be able to spam abilities then.. if spamming them is the real problem? Do you see how contradictory these things are?

We get Primed Flow.. yet are being told ability spam is bad? In the right context I have no problem with ability spam but current enemies do not provide the context I highlight in the OP.

 

Primed Flow was a mistake.

 

And spam is really sort of conditional. The exact problem isn't spam, per se, but rather energy efficiency and poorly-balanced corrupted mods that allow nuke abilities to be used cheaply with no penalty.

 

If you honestly think frame ults were meant to be used dozens of times a minute...well...

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when im playing with a group that plays in a way i dont like

i leave

i dont try to enforce my playstyle

i dont appeal to the devs to castrate their style

i just go

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Before Corrupted mods existed, we use to look at how enemies moved and how they worked and would still be achieving game breaking waves by using the right setups. You could simply have 1 squad member positioned somewhere out of enemy range but where they would 'sense' a target and stop.. then have the rest of the squad cut them down in a similar fashion to ability spamming.. but that was press shoot to win instead of 4 to win.

If it isn't ability spam it will be something else but the cause of the problem continues to go un-addressed.

I think the problem is how dull it may make the game if all you do is 1 repetitive task to win.. but then again that is what grinding is..

I agree Emptiness, I get no personal benifit in forcing someone else to play how I want, and when DE appear to be overlooking the cause of their problem it provoked me to consider the real cause of the problem and why something so fundimental to a games uniqueness could be under attack.

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Start at the top, because you missed the point with the "homer's drinking bird" thing.

 

The problem is not abilities.

 

The problem is ability spam. 

 

There's nothing wrong with players using their abilities, however there is something wrong with an Excal and a Trinity standing in one spot and tapping a number key for 15 minutes.

 

Edit: and the reason enemies are countering players is because players are not balanced. So there's that as well.

 

yep, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ THIS

 

imagine an awesome cinematic scene from Warframe.....

 

did you imagine Excalibur slash dashing into a group of enemys? then super jumping before he radial blinded them? or finishing with radial javelin? maybe? (cuz you know LoS makes A LOT more sense than the current silly rework...)

 

or did you imagine Excal just running around a room and RadJav'n nonstop? ya that sounds/looks really impressive/engaging/immersive right? /sarcasm

 

anyone who thinks that the current atmosphere of ULT spam is 'ok' really does not understand the issue and doesnt care about the longterm health of the game

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Agree with the OP. Nerfing the spam ability of aoe frames kind of defeats their purpose. At end game, each frame has one or 2 maximization builds that really allow them to shine. But is it any worse than duration build on Valkyr, loki, or mirage? I would say no. All these aoe abilities (excepting blade storm, which is nuts) fall off after a while. Trinity is a pure support, and the best in the game at that. You can't really pull her into the argument as it's long been known that Trinity + pretty much anything is a ridiculous combo. When you see people at low levels simply nuking everything, it's because they're trying to move fast so they can get back to end game. Or trying to farm as efficiently as possible. And I'm actually against the argument that you shouldn't be able to stand in one place destroying everything after a while. It's a high point you hit in any mmo that there a places and enemies which after a while are simply no longer threatening. Abilities aren't even needed as some weapons like amprex will still basically allow you to stand still and murder things. I think DE is already on the right track of countering ability spam with things like nullifiers, healing ancients, tar moas, bombards, and heavy gunners. All of these things, when you remove trinity from the argument, can still stop spam dead in its tracks.

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Cyberpunk, does excalibers' Ult clean everything in PvP Solar Rails? And yes I agree the way players are guided to spam abilities currently is NOT the way abilities were advertised in trailers for the game.

Yes Skeks that pretty much summarizes the gist of my post though I don't believe the Nullifiers are a solution when their only 'ability' removes all warframe abilities. The other enemy units you mention do appear to be a step in the right direction though. More like that would be great or even baby stalkers or something that is not totally immune to abilities but may have a resistence that spam would prove inefficient to deal with on its' own.

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Alot of the problem is that the difficulty of the game currently makes the need of these abilities too much due to the game lacking in other areas: melee, parkour, weapon balance, etc. And I personally don't want to have to trade abilities for a Boltor Prime. Once the other areas catch up and abilities are no longer a need and just become a option, then we will see a drastic reduction in ability spam.

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Agree with the OP. Nerfing the spam ability of aoe frames kind of defeats their purpose.

What is their purpose? Getting you out of a tight situation or completely removing gameplay?

 

All these aoe abilities (excepting blade storm, which is nuts) fall off after a while.

I really don't understand this argument. If those abilities really stop being viable on your "high levels", then why do people defend them so hard? Why do you even care about something you consider useless?

And why do you consider destroying everything with no effort on lower levels (40 is low level now) and barely tickling them on higher levels okay?

 

When you see people at low levels simply nuking everything, it's because they're trying to move fast so they can get back to end game

No, I see people nuking everything on all levels. It stops working on level 70 or something like that.

Let me remind you that highest level planet is currently level 35.

 

And I'm actually against the argument that you shouldn't be able to stand in one place destroying everything after a while. It's a high point you hit in any mmo that there a places and enemies which after a while are simply no longer threatening.

Warframe - where progression removes gameplay features.

 

Abilities aren't even needed as some weapons like amprex will still basically allow you to stand still and murder things.

That's exactly why people are trying to make DE balance weapons as well. Also, Amprex will run out of ammo faster than you can cast Radial Javelin.

 

All of these things, when you remove trinity from the argument, can still stop spam dead in its tracks.

Hahaha, no.

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That's exactly why people are trying to make DE balance weapons as well. Also, Amprex will run out of ammo faster than you can cast Radial Javelin.

 

If only because radial javelin takes forever to cast. /joke

Anyway, I'd love to see ulti's get a efficiency drop-off (i.e. they don't benefit as much from power efficiency mods), but get a pretty significant buff to their damage/stagger/effects/etc. so they're much more of a extreme measure that you pop when you really need rather than a 444444 thing. Not that it'll stop you from E-vamping your way to victory, but yeah, gotta burn that rep in 20 min somehow.

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Anyway, I'd love to see ulti's get a efficiency drop-off (i.e. they don't benefit as much from power efficiency mods), but get a pretty significant buff to their damage/stagger/effects/etc. so they're much more of a extreme measure that you pop when you really need rather than a 444444 thing. Not that it'll stop you from E-vamping your way to victory, but yeah, gotta burn that rep in 20 min somehow.

 

I've said it before, I'll say it again: change Fleeting Expertise to a range malus instead of a duration one.

 

Excalibur wants to cast that cheap nuke? It's gonna be tiny. Hope you've got room in your build for range mods.

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I've said it before, I'll say it again: change Fleeting Expertise to a range malus instead of a duration one.

 

Excalibur wants to cast that cheap nuke? It's gonna be tiny. Hope you've got room in your build for range mods.

Look, if you're on draco and aren't running a full non-duration corrupted build with natural talent, you're probably doing it wrong.

Overextended and stretch are pretty much normal for rep farm builds.

On the other hand, tinyglobe sounds hilarious.

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It may not be as fast but I can really see Nova benifitting from a range limit Fleeting.

Not certain changing mod offsets will resolve the underlying problems but they could help tweak things once the core issues are addressed.

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Your title and post have very little to do with eachotehr

 

The OP is basically saying we should buff things instead of nerfing and thats already been shown to be a bad idea time and time again

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Start at the top, because you missed the point with the "homer's drinking bird" thing.

 

The problem is not abilities.

 

The problem is ability spam. 

 

There's nothing wrong with players using their abilities, however there is something wrong with an Excal and a Trinity standing in one spot and tapping a number key for 15 minutes.

 

Edit: and the reason enemies are countering players is because players are not balanced. So there's that as well.

You are right but maybe trin and excal isnt a problem but the inteception or any defence type objective.

All defence/ interception maps looks the same, enemies all the time spawn in the same places, they use the same paths etc.

 

Everything what you have to do is just to sit in one place and defend something.

After 100 runs you finally understand where exacly enemy spawns what are the best place to camp etc.

Its normal that players want to reduce effort they put in a game to minimum. You can check out YT or reddit ar ask someon who know the map and he will show you all camping place and explain how to farm. Someone put a lot effort to find out how Viver worked and when he shared the information with others players. Like OP said if enemies all the time do the same thing, its easy to find a tactic which allow you to surpass them and then everyone will use the same tactic because its works the best.

And game allow us to do it.

 

Trinity and excal arent the problem. "homers' drinking bird" is just a result of those def type objectives on the same map which always looks the same. We need dynamical and rewarding missions to leave stephano/draco.

No endless defences with loki radial disarm, nova , trinity and vauban, mesa or stephano/draco rep farm with trin/rhino/excal. I dont want another trinity nerf because DE cant do a dynamical mission with proper rewards which could stop us from doing those rep farming.

DE nerfed blessing so players decided to switch from providing immortality to provide energy support instead. It's just a consequence back in time people prefered invincilbility over everything so we used duration builds. If there was any place where i could get better rewards from playing i would go there but now steph/ draco is the best place to farm rep.

"There will be always a Viver" like said Mogamu.

I main Trinity because it is the only one warframe which isnt restricted by broken energy system which is fine in community opinion.

Do you really like to rely on those cursed with RNG energy orbs all the time ? You are dying, need energy to cast ability to cast ability to survive

and now you are forced to run half of the map to get energy ball. Trinity allowed me to surpass this problem. The worst thing is that i cant use this energy in any way to kill something other than Casting WoL and EV on every encountered enemy. But other warframes can do something with this energy.

 

Why such superior being like warframe warrior have to rely on external energy source ?

Warframes without energy are useless and the fact that we are forced to grab energy from death enemies is just illogical.

We have orokin reactor which is some kind of energy source why we cant use this energy from it to power up our abilities ?

From my perspective warframes are like faulty orokin exoskeleton without energy source. We just keep running and collecting those energy orbs like batteries because warframes cant regenerate energy. Without those energy orbs we are like empty shell with meele and two weapons. nothing more than that.

Trinity Ev isnt a problem. The entire energy system is broken. Why cant we have just energy pool and energy regeneration ? Why cant we get rid of those nonsense energy balls ? Trinitys Ev is the only one ability in game which allow us to surpass this energy problem.

I think that you all have to admit that mission with good trintiy which uses EV are way more enjoyable than others. You are no longer afraid that after some point you will have to use more energy that you can get from RNG drops.

I really hope that Trinity wont get hurt in fixing this "homers' drinking bird" problem. If Ev will be nerfed i will probably just quit playing. Maybe after that players will notice that they have lost something valuable, that Trinitys Ev was just a tool used by us to not be restricted by RNG energy drops.

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It's people still bitter about how ridiculously strong Nova was (and still is) who have now found new frames to be bitter over (excal, trin, banshee). Two of those frames never saw the light of day until people recently found out they could use them to grind quick.

 

The grinding which of course is a result of diluted drop tables full of trash, and boring dumb enemies who would offer no challenge even if we had no powers at all.

 

Rather than coming up with ways to fix enemies, or fix drop tables, or fix a few easily abused abilities, the bitter players instead propose giant nerfs to the entire game and all the frame powers at once, because none of them use their brains and actually think about the massive repercussions of changes like these.

 

And assuming, by some comedic occurance, these changes happened, they think the game's enemies will then finally provide a challenge.

But they of course wont because the enemies all do the same thing. Charge mindlessly while firing, or flee.

This is why one can easily do any mission in the game without powers at all.

Because the ai just isn't clever enough to stop you.

 

But it's clearly the warframe powers that are the problem. Not the 30 grineer lancers running in a straight line firing their grakatas at one target, then immediately turning and fleeing once one of them dies. Heaven forbid we fix that instead.

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If you need abilities to make the "grind" bearable what are you getting out of playing the game? You want to make the grind as fast and easy as possible so you can do what exactly? Play a different mission? Why not play the other mission in the first place? Maybe this doesn't really address OP's point asking DE to make more interesting enemies while at the same time criticizing an enemy that counters warframe abilities in certain scenarios. If people feel like they have to grind all the time when do they feel like they're not grinding and simply playing the game?

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Start at the top, because you missed the point with the "homer's drinking bird" thing.

 

The problem is not abilities.

 

The problem is ability spam. 

 

There's nothing wrong with players using their abilities, however there is something wrong with an Excal and a Trinity standing in one spot and tapping a number key for 15 minutes.

 

Edit: and the reason enemies are countering players is because players are not balanced. So there's that as well.

Also the fact that spammers never listen to is, that while gun users cannot prevent spammers from participating in the combat of a mission, spammers CAN and DO prevent gunplay/melee users from even participating.

 

Then spammers have the unmitigated gall to tell people that dislike this style of play to stop trying to ruin the game for them and recruit people with the caveat that they cannot spam or play solo.

 

Also they just ignore the fact that DE has stated CLEARLY that this p42w playstyle is an EXPLOIT and continue to claim it's fair.

 

The reasons Vaughn has stated and my own additions are the reason we dislike it, not because of the enemies we face.

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The problem is not abilities.

 

The problem is ability spam. 

Radial nukes weren't as problematic before 75% efficiency became a thing.  They were still a lazy get out of jail free card but they couldn't be spammed.  Now that we are able to cast all our abilities relatively freely their availability creates a race to the bottom when it comes to endless game modes.  

 

I like being able to cast abilities relatively freely, as it opens up more options gameplay-wise.  If I were to attack this problem, I would keep abilities more available (the way they are now) but change the abilities themselves so that they require intelligent use to get the most out of them and promote more interesting gameplay. 

 

I will say that sometimes it's nice to have a radial nuke to save you in a pinch.  Maybe we could give all frames their radial nuke as a separate, "5th abillity" that has limited availability as an emergency save that doesn't use the same resource (energy) used to cast the other abilities.

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If you need abilities to make the "grind" bearable what are you getting out of playing the game? You want to make the grind as fast and easy as possible so you can do what exactly? Play a different mission? Why not play the other mission in the first place? Maybe this doesn't really address OP's point asking DE to make more interesting enemies while at the same time criticizing an enemy that counters warframe abilities in certain scenarios. If people feel like they have to grind all the time when do they feel like they're not grinding and simply playing the game?

Pretty much my stance on the matter, too. Well said.

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when im playing with a group that plays in a way i dont like

i leave

i dont try to enforce my playstyle

i dont appeal to the devs to castrate their style

i just go

I like you, you get it.

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