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Jax_Cavalera

Tactic Selections - Putting A Stop To Macro Farming, Rng And Grind Walls

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I really hoped to make new thread about this when I found out how to resolve all this in my head, the solution is simply said, but not simply made, so here it comes:

 

DIMISHING RETURNS.

 

Spamming abilities should cause dimishing returns to the abilities that are spammed x times in under x seconds.

 

the dimishing returns could be something like this: reduced damage, reduced buff/debuff duration, reduced effect of the debuff/buff.

 

As we see trinity being the main source of all the bad in this game, in next wednesday there should be a patch that... ehm. What? Plox no nerf plox!

 

 

Some abilities could even use rework like loki radial disarm, permanent disarm is not really a thing imo, give it some duration to balance it out maybe? Adding debuffs that give chance of something happening to enemies when they do something could also be a thing, like for example X chance to reduce enemy accuracy on next shot when shooting, or chance to jam weapons when firing for 1-2 seconds or something, also having weapon jammed should not result into 2 second long stun, fasten up the shock bacon pull up speed...

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Did you seriously just compare the DPS of an ability that can melt the faces of numerous enemies to your bow that kills one enemy in the same amount of time?

 

That's like comparing a frag grenade to a sniper rifle whilst saying the sniper is better because is does more damage to a single target - meanwhile the grenade just killed the entire squad. You're really grasping at nonexistant straws here broskii.

They wanted to compare the damage outputs, I gave them the numbers.

 

Guns hit per target, AoE powers well...AoE, that's why they're AoE. Guns rule in per target DPS, powers can outclass them in area affected, depending on power strength and number of targets it.

 

I never said the sniper was the better of the two, I said it is good. I said (essentially) the sniper and the grenade are good, and they work well together.

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They wanted to compare the damage outputs, I gave them the numbers.

 

Guns hit per target, AoE powers well...AoE, that's why they're AoE. Guns rule in per target DPS, powers can outclass them in area affected, depending on power strength and number of targets it.

 

I never said the sniper was the better of the two, I said it is good. I said (essentially) the sniper and the grenade are good, and they work well together.

The problem here is that in many, many cases this AoE damage is ENOUGH to outright kill all enemies. Where on the star map did you find enemies that require 40k of damage to kill?

Only in very long infinite missions and AoE nukes are not a factor there. Everywhere else they completely destroy everything.

 

To summarize

 

most of the time:

nukes >> weapons

 

In endless missions:

weapons >> nukes

 

Period where nukes and weapons are viable sidegrades is very short, if it even exists. That is what this thread is about, finding and extending that moment where:

weapons  nukes

 

Either that, or creating situation where benefits outweigh efficiency.

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Not sure how useful this will be to the entire discussion, but reading this thread has got me thinking about the missions that don't cause me to spam abilities.

 

The mission that does this the best? Syndicate Exterminates. There's a finite number of enemies (usually dispersed fairly evenly throughout the level), no objective to defend, no Life Support requiring kills to be gotten quickly to get more of it, no radio towers to keep control of, and there are Medallions to hunt down as well. I can choose to stealth or to go in guns blazing; both are viable. All frames are viable (although I still pick based on the faction I'm facing, usually Mag for Corpus, Oberon for Grineer and Saryn for Infested). I can bring any weapons I want without needing to worry about my kill speed. When I do use my abilities, it's usually when I'm in a pinch, or to heal myself (Shield Polarize, Renewal, Regenerative Molt). More often than not, I'm using my guns or my melee.

 

So yeah. It always warms my heart to see one or more Exterminates in my Syndicate dailies.

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So then it comes back to the issue of balance. Though in the case of Dark Sectors I can understand having PvP (It is a conflict between tenno) But to me imposing PvP upon invasions where other factions partake and where some folks go to get various PvE related rewards is kinda stripping away from what PvE has. It just doesn't sit right with me. ( imagine an invasion offering a catalyst and a reactor and being forced to fight tenno for that reward ) While the idea would no doubt appeal to the PvP fans it would kind of lock out PvE players from PvP (Again particularly those who do not wish to get involved) I think the issue here is that there appears to be no middle ground as one seems to always jam the other. PvE has broken balance but PvP would cut off players who are strictly PvE from potential rewards and participation. (Essentially taking Invasions away from PvE and handing it to PvP giving PvE players that much less to do.)

The issue there now is PvE imposing itself on PvP, which is where were at now

 

Theres  a middle ground if one side is willing to bend

 

1. Yeah, no kidding, that's literally the point.

 

2. Ash? You mean the total overall damage of hitting the targets with maxed power strength and range build, of which his ult has a target limit? Saryn, ah yes, the infamous 8k Miasma, of which requires the killing of her duration and maxed power strength, of which my bow can do 40k of in 1 shot. Mesa, no idea, haven't tried yet. And Ember!? HAHA oh please! WoF doesn't even do that much damage, it has an active target limit, AND doesn't scale. Fire doesn't even have any bonuses against most enemies in the game. Not to mention its damage output is powerful in later content only with the use of Accelerant.

 

3. Whatever you think it is, is whatever you think it is.

1.I dont know how to reply to this other than to say youre just grabbing for anything. Powers outdo guns when modded well. Neither will be useful when modded badly

 

2. Ash consistently outdoes my melee that has consistently beaten out even full teams of boltor prime users. Saryns miasma only needs to hit 5 targets to match your 40k and it doesnt have to be aimed. It can easily outclass your example and still you pretend youve got something there.

Apparently you dont understand ember at all. She outputs more damage than even Saryn with accelerant. As realpanda said,

 

 

#nonemberplayerstalk

 

 

Did you seriously just compare the DPS of an ability that can melt the faces of numerous enemies to your bow that kills one enemy in the same amount of time?

 

That's like comparing a frag grenade to a sniper rifle whilst saying the sniper is better because is does more damage to a single target - meanwhile the grenade just killed the entire squad. You're really grasping at nonexistant straws here broskii.

Hes been doing that this entire thread

 

Like literally one of the worst arguments

 

I really hoped to make new thread about this when I found out how to resolve all this in my head, the solution is simply said, but not simply made, so here it comes:

 

DIMISHING RETURNS.

 

Spamming abilities should cause dimishing returns to the abilities that are spammed x times in under x seconds.

 

the dimishing returns could be something like this: reduced damage, reduced buff/debuff duration, reduced effect of the debuff/buff.

 

As we see trinity being the main source of all the bad in this game, in next wednesday there should be a patch that... ehm. What? Plox no nerf plox!

 

 

Some abilities could even use rework like loki radial disarm, permanent disarm is not really a thing imo, give it some duration to balance it out maybe? Adding debuffs that give chance of something happening to enemies when they do something could also be a thing, like for example X chance to reduce enemy accuracy on next shot when shooting, or chance to jam weapons when firing for 1-2 seconds or something, also having weapon jammed should not result into 2 second long stun, fasten up the shock bacon pull up speed...

Diminishing returns could solve the issue but punishing players for using powers seems a bit on edge and explaining it in game would have to be a thing

 

They wanted to compare the damage outputs, I gave them the numbers.

 

Guns hit per target, AoE powers well...AoE, that's why they're AoE. Guns rule in per target DPS, powers can outclass them in area affected, depending on power strength and number of targets it.

 

I never said the sniper was the better of the two, I said it is good. I said (essentially) the sniper and the grenade are good, and they work well together.

Your numbers are wrong.

 

Youve gone so far as to pretend like there arent 10 enemies within 50 meters of you at all times in any mission that isnt exterminate

 

Powers outright out DPS guns

 

The problem here is that in many, many cases this AoE damage is ENOUGH to outright kill all enemies. Where on the star map did you find enemies that require 40k of damage to kill?

Only in very long infinite missions and AoE nukes are not a factor there. Everywhere else they completely destroy everything.

 

To summarize

 

most of the time:

nukes >> weapons

 

In endless missions:

weapons >> nukes

 

Period where nukes and weapons are viable sidegrades is very short, if it even exists. That is what this thread is about, finding and extending that moment where:

weapons  nukes

 

Either that, or creating situation where benefits outweigh efficiency.

In endless missions theres only a small portion of time where guns can be considered equal

 

After a point ammo efficiency and damage fall off and youre reliant on powers and hiding behind walls to kill enemies

 

Otherwise youll die in one hit

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The problem here is that in many, many cases this AoE damage is ENOUGH to outright kill all enemies. Where on the star map did you find enemies that require 40k of damage to kill?

Only in very long infinite missions and AoE nukes are not a factor there. Everywhere else they completely destroy everything.

 

To summarize

 

most of the time:

nukes >> weapons

 

In endless missions:

weapons >> nukes

 

Period where nukes and weapons are viable sidegrades is very short, if it even exists. That is what this thread is about, finding and extending that moment where:

weapons  nukes

 

Either that, or creating situation where benefits outweigh efficiency.

That's all dependent on that a player has modded for enough damage output to kill anything on that map. All the cases in point brought up in this discussion show builds that are modded to do enough or higher damage to those maps. They're built to ensure that anything on that level dies through higher power strength greater than the HP of enemies on that node. Is it wrong? No. A player has modded for high damage output, they shouldn't be cordoned off for building for damage output, nor should the entire system be penalized. I'm all for upping the damage output of guns, since apparently you guys think they can't match powers. What I'm not OK with is nerfing powers simply because they do their job.

 

Take into consideration that you can specialize not only the damage output of a gun, but also change its elemental damage output to even more so make it effective against the faction of enemies you're going up against. You can add in punch through mods, double the damage output through multishot, or even triple it with secondaries. You can crit build a weapon of they have the necessary stats, thus giving you even more damage output. With all that you can apply procs to enemies and have damage types that are stronger against them. The very nature of a power limits it. It's elemental damage cannot be changed, if it's AoE then it has its own version of punch through, and I think only Mesa's ult has crits in it. There's no procs, whatever damage type your power is, that's all you're getting. Of course, the tradeoff with powers is that, although they don't have the procs and such, you can change their damage output, efficiency, range, and duration.

 

If you guys wanna buff guns, sure! I'm completely happy with that. Nerf powers simply because they get the job done? Nope, never agreeing to that.

 

 

1.I dont know how to reply to this other than to say youre just grabbing for anything. Powers outdo guns when modded well. Neither will be useful when modded badly

 

2. Ash consistently outdoes my melee that has consistently beaten out even full teams of boltor prime users. Saryns miasma only needs to hit 5 targets to match your 40k and it doesnt have to be aimed. It can easily outclass your example and still you pretend youve got something there.

Apparently you dont understand ember at all. She outputs more damage than even Saryn with accelerant. As realpanda said,

 

 

 

 

Hes been doing that this entire thread

 

Like literally one of the worst arguments

 

Diminishing returns could solve the issue but punishing players for using powers seems a bit on edge and explaining it in game would have to be a thing

 

Your numbers are wrong.

 

Youve gone so far as to pretend like there arent 10 enemies within 50 meters of you at all times in any mission that isnt exterminate

 

Powers outright out DPS guns

 

In endless missions theres only a small portion of time where guns can be considered equal

 

After a point ammo efficiency and damage fall off and youre reliant on powers and hiding behind walls to kill enemies

 

Otherwise youll die in one hit

1. Nope, damage per target still has guns out on top. AoE damage, if there's enough targets hit, sure, you can match or go past that. Per target? Powers aren't the best. AoE for AoE skills? Yeah sure, if their is enough enemies in the area.

 

2. You mean the ult that has a target limit of 18 and inflicts slash damage? It beating your melee? Sure, I can believe that. It's an ult after all. That or you're just bad at melee. Full squad? Not in many cases. It's target limited and has a long animation, if you can't get kills while he's teleporting, I'd call that a fault of yourself, not a fault of the power for doing its job. Oh yes I know Miasma is extremely good, I know it can match the 40k with just 5 targets, that's the only ult that can actually come close for per target damage. And yet you want to nerf the availability of all powers, or even if it was ults, and/or their effectiveness, just because 1 power or a few can come to 1/5 the per target DPS of an end-tier gun? Nope to that. Oh I love Ember, I play Ember, not as much as Frost, but Accelerant is the thing that her entire kit is dependent on, literally the whole kit only scales if accelerant is in effect. Fireblast now has its own scale ability with the Eximi knockback, but the entirety of her kit is still dependent on that one power to be able to inflict higher amounts of damage.

 

Did I say one was the best compared to the other? No. I said both are good. Guns rule in per target DPS, powers that have AoE rule if they hit enough targets. That's true.

 

Oh my numbers are extremely right. Did I say there wasn't that many enemies around you? No, I didn't. I said you needed that many enemies in the affected area in order for total damage output to equal each other when it comes to powers and guns.

 

You just don't get it, do you? Guns rule in Per Target DPS; Paris Prime, Dread, Soma Prime, Boltor Prime, and whatever top-tier gun built with end-game in mind is out there, AoE wise, no, they don't really have that. Your AoE abilities rule in affected area damage because guns don't do damage in an area (except with Punchthrough/Multishot in a cone, or launchers), but apply a lower amount of damage per target, and are dependent on total damage output by how many targets are in the area. The reason why these skills kill is because a player has modded for higher power strength than the enemy HP/Shields/Armor on that node. A gun or powers, when modded for higher damage output for the node, will kill anything on that node.

 

If your guns, that do 10x or 5x the per target DPS of your AoE power, why are you going to use something that only does a fifth or even a tenth of the damage of the gun you're holding in your hand? You're not. If that power affords you some CC/Utility, then there ya go! Firing off the power gives you the breathing room to use that gun that does 10x or even 5x the damage per target. You aren't reliant on powers, each system works together, they are reliant on each other (in endless content). Powers (if they have it) give you the CC/Utility, the breathing room, and the high DPS your guns have give you the strength to do the damage. Outside of endless? Either one can do just fine on its own.

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The problem with this per target DPS comparison comes primarily from the idea that they perform the same job(killing things) within their aegis of operation equally given that they can both kill said target.

 

The problem with this ideal is that powers kill enemies exponentially faster in larger numbers and thus the disparity.

 

The additional problem with this argument is that nerfs=damaging powers usability due to their basis of hitting all enemies in a large aoe effectively.

 

The idea that springs to mind comes from powers such as Ember's WoF and Ash's Bladestorm. How about say we simply cap the number of targets and increase the damage dealt per strike and thus balance damage output+application of said damage to a manageable level and promote scaling of the abilities later into the game? Thus it would make more sense for higher level players to find more rewarding enemies to use said power on and might cause them to refrain from killing new player experiences in various places throughout the star map.

 

As an edit: I realize nothing is going to stop powers from trivializing game content. Unfortunately too much of the current iteration of WF is based around the concept that our powers are available virtually always.

 

However what we can perhaps come to is a point where the trivialization of gameplay is as low as possible, and enemy types that punish all players when it is a few specialized players causing their necessity is not the way to promote player enjoyment of the game.

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That's all dependent on that a player has modded for enough damage output to kill anything on that map. All the cases in point brought up in this discussion show builds that are modded to do enough or higher damage to those maps. They're built to ensure that anything on that level dies through higher power strength greater than the HP of enemies on that node. Is it wrong? No. A player has modded for high damage output, they shouldn't be cordoned off for building for damage output, nor should the entire system be penalized. I'm all for upping the damage output of guns, since apparently you guys think they can't match powers. What I'm not OK with is nerfing powers simply because they do their job.

 

Take into consideration that you can specialize not only the damage output of a gun, but also change its elemental damage output to even more so make it effective against the faction of enemies you're going up against. You can add in punch through mods, double the damage output through multishot, or even triple it with secondaries. You can crit build a weapon of they have the necessary stats, thus giving you even more damage output. With all that you can apply procs to enemies and have damage types that are stronger against them. The very nature of a power limits it. It's elemental damage cannot be changed, if it's AoE then it has its own version of punch through, and I think only Mesa's ult has crits in it. There's no procs, whatever damage type your power is, that's all you're getting. Of course, the tradeoff with powers is that, although they don't have the procs and such, you can change their damage output, efficiency, range, and duration.

 

If you guys wanna buff guns, sure! I'm completely happy with that. Nerf powers simply because they get the job done? Nope, never agreeing to that.

 

1. Nope, damage per target still has guns out on top. AoE damage, if there's enough targets hit, sure, you can match or go past that. Per target? Powers aren't the best. AoE for AoE skills? Yeah sure, if their is enough enemies in the area.

 

2. You mean the ult that has a target limit of 18 and inflicts slash damage? It beating your melee? Sure, I can believe that. It's an ult after all. That or you're just bad at melee. Full squad? Not in many cases. It's target limited and has a long animation, if you can't get kills while he's teleporting, I'd call that a fault of yourself, not a fault of the power for doing its job. Oh yes I know Miasma is extremely good, I know it can match the 40k with just 5 targets, that's the only ult that can actually come close for per target damage. And yet you want to nerf the availability of all powers, or even if it was ults, and/or their effectiveness, just because 1 power or a few can come to 1/5 the per target DPS of an end-tier gun? Nope to that. Oh I love Ember, I play Ember, not as much as Frost, but Accelerant is the thing that her entire kit is dependent on, literally the whole kit only scales if accelerant is in effect. Fireblast now has its own scale ability with the Eximi knockback, but the entirety of her kit is still dependent on that one power to be able to inflict higher amounts of damage.

 

Did I say one was the best compared to the other? No. I said both are good. Guns rule in per target DPS, powers that have AoE rule if they hit enough targets. That's true.

 

Oh my numbers are extremely right. Did I say there wasn't that many enemies around you? No, I didn't. I said you needed that many enemies in the affected area in order for total damage output to equal each other when it comes to powers and guns.

 

You just don't get it, do you? Guns rule in Per Target DPS; Paris Prime, Dread, Soma Prime, Boltor Prime, and whatever top-tier gun built with end-game in mind is out there, AoE wise, no, they don't really have that. Your AoE abilities rule in affected area damage because guns don't do damage in an area (except with Punchthrough/Multishot in a cone, or launchers), but apply a lower amount of damage per target, and are dependent on total damage output by how many targets are in the area. The reason why these skills kill is because a player has modded for higher power strength than the enemy HP/Shields/Armor on that node. A gun or powers, when modded for higher damage output for the node, will kill anything on that node.

 

If your guns, that do 10x or 5x the per target DPS of your AoE power, why are you going to use something that only does a fifth or even a tenth of the damage of the gun you're holding in your hand? You're not. If that power affords you some CC/Utility, then there ya go! Firing off the power gives you the breathing room to use that gun that does 10x or even 5x the damage per target. You aren't reliant on powers, each system works together, they are reliant on each other (in endless content). Powers (if they have it) give you the CC/Utility, the breathing room, and the high DPS your guns have give you the strength to do the damage. Outside of endless? Either one can do just fine on its own.

Youre going to seriously imply Ash cant outdamage any gun in game? Before a bullt hits most the enemy is dropping dead

 

And then insult my melee despite various videos of pure melee going through lvl 80-100 where others call it weak or obsolete

 

If were going to fling mud we can go to the monkey exhibit at the zoo.

 

Youre still making ridiculous comaprisons between guns and powers

 

I should just take you on directly

 

Pick any gun and play against my Saryn with just powers and ill beat your damage output

 

Ill even step it lower and use Valkyr if youd prefer but you better be ready to admit that guns cant compare in DPS to powers

 

Single target DPS doesnt mean a  thing especially on bows

 

Most of your damage is overkill and when it isnt youre using overkill on second shots. Paper DPS is meaningless next to practicality

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Hey all, I been away a few days with some band rehearsals writing material and didn't get time to hit up the forums till now.

 

Lot of great topics are brought up and a lot is covered and responded to well by others already.  I went through and picked out the areas that may not have been as well covered or that may lead to further developments as well.  Just got done watching the latest Devstream so I'll throw out a few thoughts on the PvP scene as well, although there is a high chance any hopes of a strong development in that area may not happen unless the newly recruited team working on that solution are still open to community input.

 

 

*sigh*

 

I answered everything you asked. You just don't like the answers. My name isn't Bill.

 

If your guns, of which outright rule in DPS, don't do a dent, what makes you think your powers (which have even less DPS) will still have killing power? They don't.

 

If your guns, which rule in per target DPS, cannot kill, what makes you think your powers kill enemies? They can't. When your powers can't kill enemies, you don't get energy. Arguing that energy restores isn't a valid point, as you also have ammo restores for your guns, so you potentially cannot run out of energy or ammo, if you have these on hand. Where will they hide? Please, tell me. How will this help when they need to kill and get LS in order to last that long? Even if they kill enemies, they have to step out and grab the LS, and if they step out, they die. You literally can't survive with these damage abilities alone.

 

Yes, because everyone lasts up to 2 hours in Survival. That last sentence was sarcasm, if you didn't catch it.

 

There is no invincibility, it's not even invincibility, other than Valkyr. That's why it's called pseudo, by even yourself. Because you aren't invincible. Everyone is vulnerable.

 

That question would've made sense if there was such a thing. To answer it, there is no such thing as pseudo invincibility outside of what a player thinks is invincibility, but is not. Invincibility means that you can't die, that you can't get hit, or that you can get hit but it isn't going to damage you. No power in this game (other than Valkyr's Hysteria), gives you actual invincibility.

 

Whatever power you think gives you invincibility, when in all actuality it doesn't if it isn't Hysteria, is what you call pseudo invincibility, because you are not invincible. If you don't like that answer, that isn't my problem.

 

 

Interesting. It would be interesting to see how this could be fleshed out.

 

Yes it was actually my intention to have the concept of Tactic Selections based on this approach where XP and grinding were no longer tied to things like kills directly as that appears to be where all the issues are centered around.

 

If we distance those 2 things, then it isn't going to really matter how a player is dealing with the mobs to a greater extent since the end yields of reward vs tactic will all be balanced and commensurate.

 

*sigh*

If a gun, that can do 40k damage (Paris Prime for example), isn't killing anything anymore, a power that does 3k damage, not even 1/10 of that damage, isn't going to do anything, even to multiple targets. The utility helps, the damage does nothing.

Power Utility/CC (I.e. Chaos, Radial Disarm, Molecular Prime, etc.) gives you the opportunity, the breathing room, to kill things with your guns. They work together.

Guns rule in per target DPS, Paris Prime, Dread, Soma Prime, Boltor Prime, all with maxed mods can attest to that. Powers that do AOE do so with the logic that they hit an area, but per target the damage is less. 3k on an Avalanche, for example. Or 8k I think on a maxed Miasma build, if that's the right numbers.

The systems work together, symbiots. One helps the other. In the highest tiers of content, in long endless missions, you're going to have to utilize both in order to push the limits. One gives the opportunity, the other the capability to maximize that opportunity. Powers don't hurt guns in that level of content, they help them.

Interpret my answer in whatever way your sweet little mind wishes, it does not change anything.

Oh I answered your question, you just don't like the answer.

 



Jax, how would your solution apply to endless missions?

 

There were 2 methods of implementation that I had in mind, 

 

1. After each milestone, XP is awarded to the extraction tally and so is the reward *based on performance % etc as per previously outlined*.

 

The squad votes on a new tactic for the next wave/time-bracket. (host vote could be worth 2 points and clients are worth 1 point so there is a tie-breaker whilst still allowing the clients to out-vote he host if they need to.)

 

2. The mission is completed using the chosen tactic and at each reward milestone the squad receive the XP and reward for that phase to their progress but do not get to choose a new tactic for the next wave/time-bracket so that gameplay is not interrupted.

 

In both cases the xp and rewards only get claimed upon safely extracting or choosing to claim (in the case of defense and Intercept)  Also the quantity of XP and maybe reward type could improve for each rotation.

 

If players were able to do all 4 rotations (yeah I'm saying they add rotation D lol)

 

then by wave 20 or 20mins into the mission using any given tactic, players would have little reason to keep going except to try and get a 2nd set of all rewards plus another set of the XP per rotation change.

 

The main time this would happen is in the context of Tower Keys where the player needs to complete a regular mission to even obtain that key.

 

I think the XP gain per wave after 20 wouldn't go up any higher than the 4th rotations XP reward so trying to go endlessly wouldn't have a major draw card as this appears to be where the game gets unbalanced.  Enemy difficulty would continue to get harder though making it more challenging to get additional Rotation Rewards from a single Void Key.

 

 

Nerfing power damage/efficiency isn't going to solve anything, it's just going to ruin it for players that aren't abusing the VERY FEW MAPS that are small enough for a single player to run around and clear using a single aoe spell.

 

A real solution would be:

1. Fix the smaller interception maps that can be afked with a few warframe abilities.

2. Add more obstacles in defense maps to prevent players from spamming aoe spells to kill enemies before they get in range.

3. Remove the ability for any power to hit through walls because that would defeat the point of obstacles and it's a pretty silly concept to begin with.

4. Implement some way for stuck monsters to "time out" and despawn because now that we can no longer hit through walls this will cause problems.

5. Make more defense objectives move around every now and then (like on ceres) to prevent afking.

 

 

Oh and P.S.

@Devs

Remove the stupid damage that bypasses shield. Seriously, why can't I play my frame pure shield? We already have 0 armor... why do you hate us?

 

I think the problem is that even if we can't afk and gameplay is adapted to stop Line of Sight, players will find a new way to mass farm that's ultra effective like Ability Spam because currently XP is tied to killing and has a strong disconnect to a players' skill and ability to adapt to various tactics.  Our only goal right now is to grind for stuff at the Warframe Casino where RNG is one cruel enemy to beat.

 

Shifting from grind via xp tied to kills and then removing RNG in place of dedicated rewards offered for beating a mission using various tactics has a high success probability of fixing the situation by removing the need/will to P42W.

 

It is true though that removing LoS would make obstacles serve a purpose, in the context of how the game is currently designed (xp grind rng) it would only serve to be a downgrade for the fun factor which is already lacking because of the above described issue.

 

Perhaps in an alternative reality where those were removed as outlined in the post I make that covers Tactic Selections, removing LoS and your DeSpawn/Re-Spawn function would then make things even more fun.

 

Slow results are generally not a thing that people are drawn towards and enjoy.  Exercise is always finding ways to get you ripped and toned faster, food is finding ways to be easier to consume with minimal preparation times.  Slowing down player progress will only succeed in boosting plat sales from those willing to stick around and will destroy and cut off a large portion of the community from the game.

 

It would also reduce how many new players take up the game over other ones since the grind wall would become excessively steep.

 

 

I agree with you about the shields lol that's a real pain and it limits play styles, then again it'd be pretty bad if a player were invincible till their shields wore down cause mag would become invincible.  The slash proc is a bit rough though I agree.. reduced damage through shields would be more easy to digest than complete bypassing.

 

It'd be REAL hard for a squad that made it to 2 hours to screw up that bad

We shouldn't be allowed to survive hour+ missions. It screws up the balancing across the board and contributes to the grindiness of WF.

 

If there were no reason to play a mission for 2 hours (no RNG) I think trying to balance the game would become a lot easier on all fronts.

 

BUUUUT this logic does not equal what occurs anywhere else EXCEPT end game which is not balanced towards.

 

So to clarify my thoughts. Why should powers absolutely trump guns in every slice of the game OTHER than the place that is not balanced at all?

This illustrates a clearly defined problem in the balance of powers which require no skill to wreck the entire portion of the game that is "balanced".

 

Perhaps this would be resolved in the context as mentioned above for endless missions and how Tactic Selections would work.  There may also be ways to adjust the proposed mechanics I listed and I would be happy to see if/where they could work best to improve the overall concept further.

 

 

 The only problem with that is that it also encroaches on PvE players who'd rather not be forced into PvP. While it would give PvP players something new it would also strip that away from PvE players (Much like the DS conflicts with U14) .

 

That's not an issue anymore. PVP now has it's own dedicated team to flesh it out. The bonus side to that is, it is getting it's own complete rebalance game wide for all frames and weapons ^^ I can't wait!

 

I get what you mean it cuts both ways. There are those who want to see it expand and then those who as you said don't and refuse to find middle ground. I would say as an alternative to this idea that there could be PvP invasions for those that want that. Then the current system for those who don't want PvP. Basically there'd be some sort of prompt to pick which version of the invasion you'd want to partake in. (Sorta like the prompts that pop up on nightmare nodes but instead there'd be like 1) PvP Invasion ,2) PvE Invasion) (Something I kinda wish the Sector conflicts had) Blending the two and forcing one onto the other or vice versa could create problems.

 

That was brought up with Dark sector conflicts

 

Alot of the issue is its not balanced

 

For starters the PvE mission will almost always be easier. Being able to blow over the AI makes it so rushing a PvE mission gives an edge for the PvE side

 

PvP could be abused in this case with win trading rather than actual PvPing

 

There are valid concerns there and I also feel the same way, the last thing we want is to have this new approach for Dark Sector PvP reducing player freedom of choice by only awarding Rep to players for PvP kills.

 

It would take some balancing though to get the Player Vs Specter balance good and a lot of work on the specters to make it fair.  At the end of the day I find Specters are a lot easier to kill than normal players due to their poor AI.

 

They always try to Revive regardless of the location, they are affected by abilities like Confusion/Rad procs where regular players may take some damage etc.. but won't start shooting their team by accident.  Real players also don't run out into the line of fire to revive all the time, they would wait and let the downed player crawl behind cover if possible.

 

 

Realistically there is no reason why Rep couldn't be awarded in the same way that XP is on a per mission basis via the Tactic Selections concept.  It would just be cool to allow players in PvP to get extra Rep from kills there as we are talking about human players that can make advanced and unpredictable combat decisions.

 

Having a cap on time between PvP kills to limit rep farm abuse would be critical though.  Then players not into PvP can still get Rep from missions but those wanting to do PvP combat get a little extra incentive.

 

Would this be fair enough as I'm just not sure that AI can ever get as skilled and unpredictable as a human player so it wouldn't be fair to reward them both even with nerfed Rep for AI Specter kills it could still be unbalanced once players find a way CC Specters etc..?

 

 

Okay, okay. I got an idea. It's a terrible idea.

What if...for every 25 energy over 100, your 4 did more stuff. Damage, buffs, whatever. And non-duration abilities use all the energy. o 3o

 

 

This could be another alternative to the Line of Sight proposed and mentioned earlier.  I would say that the introduction of this solution would also only be a consideration once the underlying issue was addressed.

 

I do think this could be a good alternative to the current Ultimate system.. maybe except that it would break builds relying on Quick Thinking and Flow for greater energy capacities.  If the Ult drained you to Zero energy from a single use this could remove the use of those builds and mods.

 

Which again may not be a bad thing either.. I would just have to consider it further and I think it'd be good to get more input from others on this as well.

 

Again, the introduction to any ability nerfing would only be under the context of the XP per Kill/Grindwall/RNG issues being resolved firstly to remove a players need/will to want to spam abilities.

 

These solutions may not be necessary in that context anyway though they could make things interesting.

 

I really hoped to make new thread about this when I found out how to resolve all this in my head, the solution is simply said, but not simply made, so here it comes:

 

DIMISHING RETURNS.

 

Spamming abilities should cause dimishing returns to the abilities that are spammed x times in under x seconds.

 

the dimishing returns could be something like this: reduced damage, reduced buff/debuff duration, reduced effect of the debuff/buff.

 

As we see trinity being the main source of all the bad in this game, in next wednesday there should be a patch that... ehm. What? Plox no nerf plox!

 

 

Some abilities could even use rework like loki radial disarm, permanent disarm is not really a thing imo, give it some duration to balance it out maybe? Adding debuffs that give chance of something happening to enemies when they do something could also be a thing, like for example X chance to reduce enemy accuracy on next shot when shooting, or chance to jam weapons when firing for 1-2 seconds or something, also having weapon jammed should not result into 2 second long stun, fasten up the shock bacon pull up speed...

 

This is another cool idea and I think it also deserves similar attention in the context of underlying mechanics being resolved.  It also may not be necessary, though it could be depending on how badly DE are struggling to balance out infinite spam tactics to other more time consuming approaches to a mission.

 

 

The problem here is that in many, many cases this AoE damage is ENOUGH to outright kill all enemies. Where on the star map did you find enemies that require 40k of damage to kill?

Only in very long infinite missions and AoE nukes are not a factor there. Everywhere else they completely destroy everything.

 

To summarize

 

most of the time:

nukes >> weapons

 

In endless missions:

weapons >> nukes

 

Period where nukes and weapons are viable sidegrades is very short, if it even exists. That is what this thread is about, finding and extending that moment where:

weapons  nukes

 

Either that, or creating situation where benefits outweigh efficiency.

 

I think some bosses have a fairly high damage resistance though maybe not 40k of HP/Armor/Shields etc but still enough that a heavy ability won't take care of it in time.

 

The issue as has been highlighted, would be that in general we are trying to talk about abilities used for low level mass murder vs weapons that are usually used for high level mass murder in conjunction with CC.

 

Angstrum is a good example of a weapon that is used as an AoE alternative in Defense Missions, though only becomes viable when mobs are reduced to melee or CC'd in a confined area. (looking at Vauban, Zephyr, Hydroid, Mag, Valkyr etc..)

 

 

As has been mentioned earlier in the topic, even without spam abilities, we were able to CC and deal with large quantities of enemies using other game mechanics such as Agro Diversion etc..  There are plenty of ways to skin a fish and this is why I come back to saying we need to remove the need for fish so players don't keep trying to skin them.

 

Not sure how useful this will be to the entire discussion, but reading this thread has got me thinking about the missions that don't cause me to spam abilities.

 

The mission that does this the best? Syndicate Exterminates. There's a finite number of enemies (usually dispersed fairly evenly throughout the level), no objective to defend, no Life Support requiring kills to be gotten quickly to get more of it, no radio towers to keep control of, and there are Medallions to hunt down as well. I can choose to stealth or to go in guns blazing; both are viable. All frames are viable (although I still pick based on the faction I'm facing, usually Mag for Corpus, Oberon for Grineer and Saryn for Infested). I can bring any weapons I want without needing to worry about my kill speed. When I do use my abilities, it's usually when I'm in a pinch, or to heal myself (Shield Polarize, Renewal, Regenerative Molt). More often than not, I'm using my guns or my melee.

 

So yeah. It always warms my heart to see one or more Exterminates in my Syndicate dailies.

 

This hits the nail spot on, you are talking about a mission with a finite quantity of XP that a player can obtain from each run.  (Tactic Selections would introduce this but via mission completion instead of per enemy killed)

 

Time constraints are again another aspect that has minimal benefits.  The only benefit to completing an Exterminate fast is that you can repeat it quicker and this would be the only benefit to all missions in the context of Tactic Selections.

 

I think that the observations made are in general hitting the core issues of the matter where it hurts most.

 

To me, when I run Void Exterminates now days, it's all ability spam as the only thing we are doing them for is the claim reward.  XP is better obtained elsewhere in the game with it being designed the way it currently works.

 

By splitting up rewards to individual Tactics instead of using a RNG per run with all possible rewards being up for grabs, speed running wouldn't be as big a thing since we already know what we will get and it becomes about surviving and sticking to our chosen Tactic for the run.

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I think somebody may have already mentioned this but IMHO if you don't like players ult spamming then find a group of players or your friends to play with who are like-minded, because I bet you there are players in this game who very much enjoy modding up their frame and then ult spamming more or less.

Also somebody earlier questioned what is the enjoyment one derives from simply casting one ability over and over again. Ok, I can see the point, but once again that's your opinion. There are players who probably get a lot of enjoyment out of it. So the point is if you don't like the play style of the team you're playing on just leave. What I personally do is I stay for the game I'm already in (because I don't like bailing out on the group in mid game) and then I leave the squad when the mission is finished. And I try to find players I've enjoyed playing the game with or stay on a random team if that team and I have good chemistry and play well.

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The problem with this per target DPS comparison comes primarily from the idea that they perform the same job(killing things) within their aegis of operation equally given that they can both kill said target.

 

The problem with this ideal is that powers kill enemies exponentially faster in larger numbers and thus the disparity.

 

The additional problem with this argument is that nerfs=damaging powers usability due to their basis of hitting all enemies in a large aoe effectively.

 

The idea that springs to mind comes from powers such as Ember's WoF and Ash's Bladestorm. How about say we simply cap the number of targets and increase the damage dealt per strike and thus balance damage output+application of said damage to a manageable level and promote scaling of the abilities later into the game? Thus it would make more sense for higher level players to find more rewarding enemies to use said power on and might cause them to refrain from killing new player experiences in various places throughout the star map.

 

As an edit: I realize nothing is going to stop powers from trivializing game content. Unfortunately too much of the current iteration of WF is based around the concept that our powers are available virtually always.

 

However what we can perhaps come to is a point where the trivialization of gameplay is as low as possible, and enemy types that punish all players when it is a few specialized players causing their necessity is not the way to promote player enjoyment of the game.

It isn't going to stop those players who press 1 button repeatedly. Those people are still going to just press that 1 button even more so because now it kills less. It will, however, hinder the rest of us from using our powers freely. Not just the 1 button, but all 4. We all suffer from it for the actions of a few; that really isn't a solution, more so of a shackle on the entire community.

 

 

Youre going to seriously imply Ash cant outdamage any gun in game? Before a bullt hits most the enemy is dropping dead

 

And then insult my melee despite various videos of pure melee going through lvl 80-100 where others call it weak or obsolete

 

If were going to fling mud we can go to the monkey exhibit at the zoo.

 

Youre still making ridiculous comaprisons between guns and powers

 

I should just take you on directly

 

Pick any gun and play against my Saryn with just powers and ill beat your damage output

 

Ill even step it lower and use Valkyr if youd prefer but you better be ready to admit that guns cant compare in DPS to powers

 

Single target DPS doesnt mean a  thing especially on bows

 

Most of your damage is overkill and when it isnt youre using overkill on second shots. Paper DPS is meaningless next to practicality

 

All the stuff I write that's actually correct, even politically correct, and the jist of it was the one sentence in the entire thing. And you tell me I'm being defensive. I'm not implying anything, you're the one that's making implications.

 

Haha, no matter what you do, or how silly your little rants are, I'll never say that guns can't compare to powers in DPS, because they can. All your points I've proven wrong, so now your only defense is try and get angry and challenge me? Is that really how low you're going to stoop since I've proven you wrong? What are we, five? You're losing the argument completely and you want to get physical? Oh please, that ploy isn't going to get you anywhere.

 

Guns do fine, powers do fine, the best part is you can choose to use both, or one or the other. You wanna be angry about them doing their jobs? Well, sucks to be you. A powers' job is to kill or provide CC/Utility, if they do their job, then bravo. A guns job is to kill and proc, and take advantage of that CC/Utility.

 

 

I think somebody may have already mentioned this but IMHO if you don't like players ult spamming then find a group of players or your friends to play with who are like-minded, because I bet you there are players in this game who very much enjoy modding up their frame and then ult spamming more or less.

Also somebody earlier questioned what is the enjoyment one derives from simply casting one ability over and over again. Ok, I can see the point, but once again that's your opinion. There are players who probably get a lot of enjoyment out of it. So the point is if you don't like the play style of the team you're playing on just leave. What I personally do is I stay for the game I'm already in (because I don't like bailing out on the group in mid game) and then I leave the squad when the mission is finished. And I try to find players I've enjoyed playing the game with or stay on a random team if that team and I have good chemistry and play well.

Thank you, you get it.

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Thank you, you get it.

There are a few problems with that, though.  One is that it only takes one player out of four to 4spam and remove interactivity from the mission.  Two is that the availability of 4spam inevitably forces DE to tailor gameplay around it.  Three, and most important (IMO,) is that the availability of 4spam and other cheesy powers that trivialize gameplay breeds lazy, unskilled players who rely on cheese to get through missions.  It has also bred a faction of players who insist that these powers, which essentially turn off gameplay, are essential and should be the cornerstone of the game (they are also behind the powercreep that we've been seeing over the past year.)  Basically, a vocal minority threatens to make Warframe less fun over time for those who actually enjoy its gameplay at heart.  

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There are a few problems with that, though.  One is that it only takes one player out of four to 4spam and remove interactivity from the mission.  Two is that the availability of 4spam inevitably forces DE to tailor gameplay around it.  Three, and most important (IMO,) is that the availability of 4spam and other cheesy powers that trivialize gameplay breeds lazy, unskilled players who rely on cheese to get through missions.  It has also bred a faction of players who insist that these powers, which essentially turn off gameplay, are essential and should be the cornerstone of the game (they are also behind the powercreep that we've been seeing over the past year.)  Basically, a vocal minority threatens to make Warframe less fun over time for those who actually enjoy its gameplay at heart.  

Hold on there cowboy, who are these people you're talking about? You got any proof? Threads? Legitimate proof, not just some speculation. Lets not start conspiracy theories here.

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Hold on there cowboy, who are these people you're talking about? You got any proof? Threads? Legitimate proof, not just some speculation. Lets not start conspiracy theories here.

I mean, it's not hard to read the forums and then the patch notes, and then the forums again over time.  It's also kind of funny that this strikes you as a conspiracy theory in the first place.  It's not like games (let alone MMOs) haven't been killed by powercreep in the past.

 

People getting Rhino at MR2 and then not learning any fundamentals because they don't have to dodge, ever until late game?  Pretty plausible to me.  Never mind getting carried by 4spamming, Soma-slinging pubs through the whole starmap and beyond.

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I mean, it's not hard to read the forums and then the patch notes, and then the forums again over time.  It's also kind of funny that this strikes you as a conspiracy theory in the first place.  It's not like games (let alone MMOs) haven't been killed by powercreep in the past.

True, but how does that tie into this thread? The game's been growing pretty normally, people come and go, but from what we can see from the Steam activity, we've got a stable level of players. I can't speak for the rest of the platforms or other outlets that have a WarFrame community.

 

None of us here want things to be buffed to be OP, at least that isn't what any of us have suggested so far that I've seen. Some perceive guns vs. powers in the argument, I see it as guns and powers, most of us here are trying to look for improving and expanding the game. What's your angle on power creep and some of us suggesting to add to it?

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True, but how does that tie into this thread? The game's been growing pretty normally, people come and go, but from what we can see from the Steam activity, we've got a stable level of players. I can't speak for the rest of the platforms or other outlets that have a WarFrame community.

 

None of us here want things to be buffed to be OP, at least that isn't what any of us have suggested so far that I've seen. Some perceive guns vs. powers in the argument, I see it as guns and powers, most of us here are trying to look for improving and expanding the game. What's your angle on power creep and some of us suggesting to add to it?

For example, when Soma Prime came out the initial outcry was that it was a slap in the face to players because it *only* had a 20% increase in damage (on the highest headshot dps weapon in the game, no less) and double the clip size.  After some players acquired it and found that it had reduced (eliminated) spin-up time there was no doubt that the Prime version was a substantial upgrade over the original but the outrage persisted for weeks.  

 

Some players also want infinite scaling for ability damage (and for pretty much all warframe abilities) because they view infinite content as "endgame."  These are many of the same people who demand overpowered weapons because if it can't kill level 100 heavy gunners, it's useless to them.  

 

In almost every "frame rework" thread I read, people ask for mechanics that remove interactivity from the game so that they can win hardly lifting a finger.  They also frequently insist on replacing existing mechanics entirely instead of improving upon what's there.  This indicates that they do not value anything that is not immediately expedient and that they don't try to overcome the apparent limits of the game in front of them (and thus never grow as players.)

 

If DE caters to these people, they will probably make some more money but they will assuredly ruin what was once the most refreshing and  promising game I had seen in years.  

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For example, when Soma Prime came out the initial outcry was that it was a slap in the face to players because it *only* had a 20% increase in damage (on the highest headshot dps weapon in the game, no less) and double the clip size.  After some players acquired it and found that it had reduced (eliminated) spin-up time there was no doubt that the Prime version was a substantial upgrade over the original but the outrage persisted for weeks.  

 

Some players also want infinite scaling for ability damage (and for pretty much all warframe abilities) because they view infinite content as "endgame."  These are many of the same people who demand overpowered weapons because if it can't kill level 100 heavy gunners, it's useless to them.  

 

In almost every "frame rework" thread I read, people ask for mechanics that remove interactivity from the game so that they can win hardly lifting a finger.  They also frequently insist on replacing existing mechanics entirely instead of improving upon what's there.  This indicates that they do not value anything that is not immediately expedient and that they don't try to overcome the apparent limits of the game in front of them (and thus never grow as players.)

 

If DE caters to these people, they will probably make some more money but they will assuredly ruin what was once the most refreshing and  promising game I had seen in years.  

Well thank heavens DE doesn't.

 

All in all, none of us here have asked for anything like that, IMO.

 

For me, I'd think infinite scaling damage wouldn't be the best route on powers, I'd rather them keep the damage levels to where they are rather than buff them (for some powers, depends on their function) and rather than add more damage, give those powers CC/Utility. That way, instead of being a power that doesn't scale into content through damage, it becomes a power that scales in utility, in crowd control, in dimensions other than just a damage number.

 

I've written an entire thread about it, on how augments shouldn't be band aids, but one of the main points is that powers should innately have scale ability not through damage output, but through integrated functions of utility and/or crowd control.

 

For instance, Ice Wave on Frost isn't that useful in later content, and his kit suffers because its sole strong point is Snow Globe, with the rest of his kit lacking. Ice Wave hits for damage and applies an ice proc to enemies it hits that survive, the annoying thing about this is that the augment Ice Wave Impedance does that but even better and actually has a lasting affect that fits Frosts theme as an Ice Mage. Without the augment, the power just acts as a damage output and isn't that useful later on.

 

Rather than adding in Ice Wave Impedance to fix its scale ability, I would've rather DE built into the power the mechanic of knockback/knockup on enemies that get hit by the wave and survive. Crowd Control/Utility like that not only ensures that Ice Wave has a function outside of damage dealing, but also fits his theme as an AoE lockdown Frame. The crown jewel of his kit is Snow Globe. Take that away and his role as a Defensive Frame is pretty much moot. Not to mention Avalanche has no scale ability, Freeze has annoying travel time and low health, and Ice Wave doesn't really help out in higher content. Add that knockback, and you've got a frame that has scale ability both defensively and offensively, and makes him better fit his theme as an Ice Battle Mage with AoE Lockdown abilities. It builds on the mechanics that are already there, and helps to flesh out his kit and make it solid.

 

I could go on and on on how to improve Frosts kit not for damage, but for utility/CC to ensure scale ability, but that's for another time. That's the kind of improvements I'd like for the majority of powers, give them scale ability not through damage, but utility/CC to ensure they have functionality as more than a damage number that falls off later on in content.

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Agreed on the band-aids.  Many of these augments should just be part of the powers because they are not overpowered while also allowing the ability to truly function as intended.

 

If i were to revise Frost I would:

 

1. Freeze behaves like Ember Fireball but with slighly smaller radius.  AOE has 50% chance to have the same freeze effect as the main projectile instead of just dealing pathetic damage and cold proc.  Enemies that unfreeze are inflicted with cold proc.  

 

2. Ice Wave impedance added into the ability; only one trail can exist at a time.  Allow the augment to boost this to unlimited simultaneous trails.

 

3. Make Snow Globe actually use Frost's armor instead of just gaining a pittance of extra HP from it.

 

4. Cause Avalanche to spawn large boulders of ice and snow that have a big AOE and explode into smaller ones on contact with enemies and terrain that spread out to hit more enemies (you know how the animation makes it look like actual snow and ice is hitting the enemies?  Something like that.)  Direct hits from the big boulders and their explosions do big damage (substantially bigger than the current base damage) and freeze enemies similar to how the old, bugged Avalanche did.  Boulder fragments inflict cold proc and do less damage (probably around what it does now.)  I'm not sure how we would aim the ability, though the targeting mechanics of Tornado and Tentacle swarm could be a good start.  

 

Does this sound like a good direction to take design in to you?

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Agreed on the band-aids.  Many of these augments should just be part of the powers because they are not overpowered while also allowing the ability to truly function as intended.

 

If i were to revise Frost I would:

 

1. Freeze behaves like Ember Fireball but with slighly smaller radius.  AOE has 50% chance to have the same freeze effect as the main projectile instead of just dealing pathetic damage and cold proc.  Enemies that unfreeze are inflicted with cold proc.  

 

2. Ice Wave impedance added into the ability; only one trail can exist at a time.  Allow the augment to boost this to unlimited simultaneous trails.

 

3. Make Snow Globe actually use Frost's armor instead of just gaining a pittance of extra HP from it.

 

4. Cause Avalanche to spawn large boulders of ice and snow that have a big AOE and explode into smaller ones on contact with enemies and terrain that spread out to hit more enemies (you know how the animation makes it look like actual snow and ice is hitting the enemies?  Something like that.)  Direct hits from the big boulders and their explosions do big damage (substantially bigger than the current base damage) and freeze enemies similar to how the old, bugged Avalanche did.  Boulder fragments inflict cold proc and do less damage (probably around what it does now.)  I'm not sure how we would aim the ability, though the targeting mechanics of Tornado and Tentacle swarm could be a good start.  

 

Does this sound like a good direction to take design in to you?

I really do like it! It adds interesting mechanics to his powers that they should have outright, and also isn't just the same old boring "moar damagez". Unique, fits his theme, and has great functionality.

 

That's where I hope they go with powers, not just boosting damage because that doesn't solve the issue. Giving them functionality outside of damage that are built in mechanics, that also make them interesting and individualized, would be awesome.

 

Instead of players just pressing that 1 boring button because that's the only power that gets the job done, each power has functionality, uniqueness, and synergy that makes the entire kit appealing and useful. Less people see that 1 button as the perceived best option, and we see more variety in power usage.

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I think somebody may have already mentioned this but IMHO if you don't like players ult spamming then find a group of players or your friends to play with who are like-minded, because I bet you there are players in this game who very much enjoy modding up their frame and then ult spamming more or less.

Also somebody earlier questioned what is the enjoyment one derives from simply casting one ability over and over again. Ok, I can see the point, but once again that's your opinion. There are players who probably get a lot of enjoyment out of it. So the point is if you don't like the play style of the team you're playing on just leave. What I personally do is I stay for the game I'm already in (because I don't like bailing out on the group in mid game) and then I leave the squad when the mission is finished. And I try to find players I've enjoyed playing the game with or stay on a random team if that team and I have good chemistry and play well.

Be anti social with your clique because the game is badly designed?

 

+1

 

Ignore that you have to try while others can sit and spam 4?

 

+1

 

Ignore the lack of faced paced space ninja gameplay that the game is supposed to have?

 

You get where im going right?

 

All the stuff I write that's actually correct, even politically correct, and the jist of it was the one sentence in the entire thing. And you tell me I'm being defensive. I'm not implying anything, you're the one that's making implications.

 

Haha, no matter what you do, or how silly your little rants are, I'll never say that guns can't compare to powers in DPS, because they can. All your points I've proven wrong, so now your only defense is try and get angry and challenge me? Is that really how low you're going to stoop since I've proven you wrong? What are we, five? You're losing the argument completely and you want to get physical? Oh please, that ploy isn't going to get you anywhere.

 

Guns do fine, powers do fine, the best part is you can choose to use both, or one or the other. You wanna be angry about them doing their jobs? Well, sucks to be you. A powers' job is to kill or provide CC/Utility, if they do their job, then bravo. A guns job is to kill and proc, and take advantage of that CC/Utility.

To start, dont say politically correct and expect a good response. Politically correct is rarely a good thing

 

Back on topic

 

Im not mad. Im telling you to put up or shut up. You say im wrong and i say youre wrong and im willing to prove you wrong but it seems that youre not willing to do the same.

 

Would you rather insult me than take up the challenge. If youre right then show it.We both know its not a bet you can win and thats why youre throwing petty insults

 

Youre wrong and you know it

 

 

There are a few problems with that, though.  One is that it only takes one player out of four to 4spam and remove interactivity from the mission.  Two is that the availability of 4spam inevitably forces DE to tailor gameplay around it.  Three, and most important (IMO,) is that the availability of 4spam and other cheesy powers that trivialize gameplay breeds lazy, unskilled players who rely on cheese to get through missions.  It has also bred a faction of players who insist that these powers, which essentially turn off gameplay, are essential and should be the cornerstone of the game (they are also behind the powercreep that we've been seeing over the past year.)  Basically, a vocal minority threatens to make Warframe less fun over time for those who actually enjoy its gameplay at heart.  

This is exactly the issue

 

4 spam is the msot effective way to do about anything

 

Any other playstyle is obsolete or enar obsolete

 

It isnt about forcing anything onto anyone

 

Its about making ti fair for everyone

 

If anything 4 spam is forcing things on other players

 

I brought my ember into a Ceres mission and didnt do a thing because there was an excali spamming 4 under the stairs while i stood by the stairs

 

I was forced to do nothing or leave

 

That guy thinks this kind of thing is OK yet making it so people cant do that isnt

 

Theres a serious issue here

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I brought my ember into a Ceres mission and didnt do a thing because there was an excali spamming 4 under the stairs while i stood by the stairs

 

I was forced to do nothing or leave

 

That guy thinks this kind of thing is OK yet making it so people cant do that isnt

 

Theres a serious issue here

There's another issue.  Rep farming is ok to exist but it should be challenging rather than robotic and procedural.

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To start, dont say politically correct and expect a good response. Politically correct is rarely a good thing

 

Back on topic

 

Im not mad. Im telling you to put up or shut up. You say im wrong and i say youre wrong and im willing to prove you wrong but it seems that youre not willing to do the same.

 

Would you rather insult me than take up the challenge. If youre right then show it.We both know its not a bet you can win and thats why youre throwing petty insults

 

Youre wrong and you know it

To start, I said politically correct because even when it was iffy, I was still right.

 

Oh you're mad alright, I don't need to put up or shut up when it comes to some whinny complaints from someone who lost the argument so they resort to saying "I'll kill you!" merely because they're completely wrong.

 

Haha, I'd rather continue to prove you're wrong and enjoy seeing your only defense be "I'll kill you!" because you have nothing else left to offer the conversation other than "you're wrong" because that's literally the only point you have, without even any credible support for "you're wrong" other than heresay and spewing "hypocrisy!" at me throughout all of it.

 

Guns and powers do fine, that was one of my points, and it is a right point. If your only response is "you're wrong" or "hypocrisy!" or "I'll kill you!" when I've proved you wrong on all of that, then I have no need to prove anything, because you have nothing to prove otherwise.

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Ok guys, and by that I mean Alpha and Azawarau, if I have learned anything from dealing with the two of you it is that you are both obstinate in your belief that things are not right in WF.

 

YOU BOTH ADMIT that p42w is an issue and wish to change the mind set if not the capability to utilize it.

 

The thing you do not agree on thus far is the METHOD.

So now comes the point that we either work on a compromise that works towards both ends or you both simply cease to visit this thread before you derail it.

 

Alpha and I have ceased our constant issues trying to counter one another's statements and it has become a sort of give and take engagement.

This must occur here as well or your participation in the discussion can no longer be welcomed.

 

This is not some argument between partners in a  relationship nor is it a he said she said fight betwixt children. IT is time to show a measure of maturity and end this. Currently there is no way DE will ever consider anything contained within this threads confines if they take it as a whole. Lord knows I have kind of been forced to virtually ignore it due to the constant bickering and sniping.

 

In short feel free to discuss SOLUTIONS however realize that regardless of what each of you think, this is an issue and it must be resolved. If you can't be constructive without being argumentative, then you are of no benefit whatsoever to this dialogue.

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There's another issue.  Rep farming is ok to exist but it should be challenging rather than robotic and procedural.

This is a huge issue with EXP in general

 

To start, I said politically correct because even when it was iffy, I was still right.

 

Oh you're mad alright, I don't need to put up or shut up when it comes to some whinny complaints from someone who lost the argument so they resort to saying "I'll kill you!" merely because they're completely wrong.

 

Haha, I'd rather continue to prove you're wrong and enjoy seeing your only defense be "I'll kill you!" because you have nothing else left to offer the conversation other than "you're wrong" because that's literally the only point you have, without even any credible support for "you're wrong" other than heresay and spewing "hypocrisy!" at me throughout all of it.

 

Guns and powers do fine, that was one of my points, and it is a right point. If your only response is "you're wrong" or "hypocrisy!" or "I'll kill you!" when I've proved you wrong on all of that, then I have no need to prove anything, because you have nothing to prove otherwise.

Im not saying ill kill you

 

Im telling you you can either put your word against mine or show that you cant

 

All youve come down to from that is "he must be mad" because you dont want to take up my offer

 

Ok guys, and by that I mean Alpha and Azawarau, if I have learned anything from dealing with the two of you it is that you are both obstinate in your belief that things are not right in WF.

 

YOU BOTH ADMIT that p42w is an issue and wish to change the mind set if not the capability to utilize it.

 

The thing you do not agree on thus far is the METHOD.

So now comes the point that we either work on a compromise that works towards both ends or you both simply cease to visit this thread before you derail it.

 

Alpha and I have ceased our constant issues trying to counter one another's statements and it has become a sort of give and take engagement.

This must occur here as well or your participation in the discussion can no longer be welcomed.

 

This is not some argument between partners in a  relationship nor is it a he said she said fight betwixt children. IT is time to show a measure of maturity and end this. Currently there is no way DE will ever consider anything contained within this threads confines if they take it as a whole. Lord knows I have kind of been forced to virtually ignore it due to the constant bickering and sniping.

 

In short feel free to discuss SOLUTIONS however realize that regardless of what each of you think, this is an issue and it must be resolved. If you can't be constructive without being argumentative, then you are of no benefit whatsoever to this dialogue.

Yeah thats not going to happen for alot of reasons

 

Maturity isnt an issue in this case so much as stopping misinformation and ignorance

 

If you dont want to continue then thats your thing but im not going to let people believe that hes got the right idea when hes clearly steering in the wrong direction

 

You can play one side of it and ill be the other

 

I wont be convinced to change either so if youve given up on him do the same with me

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Ok guys, and by that I mean Alpha and Azawarau, if I have learned anything from dealing with the two of you it is that you are both obstinate in your belief that things are not right in WF.

 

YOU BOTH ADMIT that p42w is an issue and wish to change the mind set if not the capability to utilize it.

 

The thing you do not agree on thus far is the METHOD.

So now comes the point that we either work on a compromise that works towards both ends or you both simply cease to visit this thread before you derail it.

 

Alpha and I have ceased our constant issues trying to counter one another's statements and it has become a sort of give and take engagement.

This must occur here as well or your participation in the discussion can no longer be welcomed.

 

This is not some argument between partners in a  relationship nor is it a he said she said fight betwixt children. IT is time to show a measure of maturity and end this. Currently there is no way DE will ever consider anything contained within this threads confines if they take it as a whole. Lord knows I have kind of been forced to virtually ignore it due to the constant bickering and sniping.

 

In short feel free to discuss SOLUTIONS however realize that regardless of what each of you think, this is an issue and it must be resolved. If you can't be constructive without being argumentative, then you are of no benefit whatsoever to this dialogue.

Haha, well well, look who's being the good sibling in this. Oh I'll agree to finding solutions.

 

I'm hoping for better enemies, better maps, and expansion of current assets to challenge players more so than just point and shoot or stand and click. Growing what we have, I'll support that, not snipping it down.

 

That tactics thing looks promising, but we have to make sure that the rewards are worthwhile, or else people will just abandon ship and say "screw it" and do whatever they please in team situations.

 

Im not saying ill kill you

 

Im telling you you can either put your word against mine or show that you cant

 

All youve come down to from that is "he must be mad" because you dont want to take up my offer

Oh I have put my word against yours, and I've given support, examples, expanded upon it, while you've just accused me of being wrong without credible evidence otherwise.

 

Look "Bill", since you apparently like the name, this is how its going to go. Me and you are gonna bring our top gear to the duel. Then it's gonna be whoever gets the shot off first wins, because we've built that gear to kill anything in the game. And besides, I don't need to prove myself to someone who can't even prove their own points other than spouting "hypocrisy" at the opposition and have no valid evidence why. You needed Genin's help on that one. Bless his soul, he actually did come to your aid.

 

But, Genin is right, I'll not bother responding to your bickering and bait any longer, tootles. Yell and whine all you like, I'll actually be contributing to expanding and helping in this conversation while you're at it.

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