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Jax_Cavalera

Tactic Selections - Putting A Stop To Macro Farming, Rng And Grind Walls

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If you need abilities to make the "grind" bearable what are you getting out of playing the game? You want to make the grind as fast and easy as possible so you can do what exactly? Play a different mission? Why not play the other mission in the first place? Maybe this doesn't really address OP's point asking DE to make more interesting enemies while at the same time criticizing an enemy that counters warframe abilities in certain scenarios. If people feel like they have to grind all the time when do they feel like they're not grinding and simply playing the game?

 

 

I really to believe that it's the grind wall mentality being deployed in Warframe that is constantly pushing players to never feel like they have "enough' to just stop grinding and enjoy all the amazing cool things they now have at their fingertips.

 

Personally I know each time I reach the max that one can achieve, I quickly lose interest in the game because the underlying problems that others have also mentioned such as enemies AI are not really being addressed.  Warframe has the potential to be something amazing and with all the content developed, players really just need to find a way to be happy with the items they have or only grind for items they feel would better suit their play style instead of Mastery Fodder.

 

Whilst we have terms like Mastery Fodder floating around, it's pretty clear that player will never appreciate each item that is released into the game as it's just a means to their end which is reaching the highest grade Mastery which thanks to syndicates now means you can earn more rep which lets you buy more syndicate gear to sell for platinum so you can have enough platinum to quickly snap any new content the moment it is released so you can max it out to stay at the top of your Mastery.

 

It really is a dull cycle.  I'm glad to see so many players out there are tired of it too and want more from the game.  I want to feel like it's ok to let my guard down on the Mastery Fodder train and just enjoy what I have without feeling like getting left behind means I may not be able to get some rare opportunity later on.

 

 

If that ever happened though do you think players would feel ok to just stop and enjoy using the loadout they like the most and customizing and formaring it over ad over to perfection?  I suspect players will still want to get the new gear released just to give it ago but feel that yeah.. players would be more comfortable to actually start enjoying all the content developed instead of just using it as Mastery Fodder .. never to be touched again except on rare occasion.

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Well this is what happens when grinding and farming replace gameplay as goal of the game. Nobody is farming for fun. That is the sad part about this game: period of fun ends relatively quickly. Then player either leaves, or gets into "gotta catch 'em all" mentality and starts grinding.

 

Although I'm not sure if PvE game is even sustainable without grind. Even if it had big advanced campaign, it would still be only temporary entertainment. Playing same missions over and over gets old really fast.

Perhaps if Warframe had better A.I. and much more randomized tilesets, gameplay enjoyment would last longer. Dynamic objectives could help too.

 

Anyways, what I'm trying to say, is that "4 to win" is a symptom of a problem of the game itself. Nerfing nukes won't help. Even trying to reduce emphasis on farming won't suddenly make gameplay itself more rewarding and fun. This is a problem of repetitiveness.

 

Fixing it is not an easy task. Even Destiny with it's big open world and 500 bazillion dollars has to resort to grinding.

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I really to believe that it's the grind wall mentality being deployed in Warframe that is constantly pushing players to never feel like they have "enough' to just stop grinding and enjoy all the amazing cool things they now have at their fingertips.

 

Personally I know each time I reach the max that one can achieve, I quickly lose interest in the game because the underlying problems that others have also mentioned such as enemies AI are not really being addressed.  Warframe has the potential to be something amazing and with all the content developed, players really just need to find a way to be happy with the items they have or only grind for items they feel would better suit their play style instead of Mastery Fodder.

 

Whilst we have terms like Mastery Fodder floating around, it's pretty clear that player will never appreciate each item that is released into the game as it's just a means to their end which is reaching the highest grade Mastery which thanks to syndicates now means you can earn more rep which lets you buy more syndicate gear to sell for platinum so you can have enough platinum to quickly snap any new content the moment it is released so you can max it out to stay at the top of your Mastery.

 

It really is a dull cycle.  I'm glad to see so many players out there are tired of it too and want more from the game.  I want to feel like it's ok to let my guard down on the Mastery Fodder train and just enjoy what I have without feeling like getting left behind means I may not be able to get some rare opportunity later on.

 

 

If that ever happened though do you think players would feel ok to just stop and enjoy using the loadout they like the most and customizing and formaring it over ad over to perfection?  I suspect players will still want to get the new gear released just to give it ago but feel that yeah.. players would be more comfortable to actually start enjoying all the content developed instead of just using it as Mastery Fodder .. never to be touched again except on rare occasion.

 

I think you raise strong points.  And I do believe that DE can serve to implement many of the things players ask for. But I don't think that will stop people from feeling like they have to grind in order to experience everything. It's ironic since players feel this way because DE has made such a big game though it's not necessarily a deep game in proportion to that breadth of content. So players can get themselves dissatisfied fast when they try to digest all that that ground in one go. So I do think asking for deeper gameplay is a great request.

 

I am a founder who despite playing for over a year am not even close to maxing out my mastery. There are plenty of weapons I haven't touched and that I know I can get around to playing with in time. Meanwhile I do play with maximizing my favorite weapons in the manner you are describing. I've 6-formaed Hind and had a great time with it when it came out. I've even put forma into my mk1-braton. And I frequently play missions without anything that needs to level. I just finished 8-formaing my Bo-Prime and now I can look forward to shelving it and 8-formaing the Tipedo. And now with the syndicate system I can still have some consistent progression even if I do play with level 30 equipment.

 

So I think feeling like you have to max everything as soon as possible is not really the best approach to these kind of long-term continual development cycle games.  But as long as we're dealing with large community populations there will always be a sort of lowest common denominator approach to the game that will largely inform how the community responds to it. This is how games develop their basic meta. So I think ultimately that this cycle of players complaining about the grind and asking for deeper gameplay is healthy and normal, like a baby crying for attention or food.  If it leads to a better game that's great but no one should lose any sleep over it.

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Radial nukes weren't as problematic before 75% efficiency became a thing.  They were still a lazy get out of jail free card but they couldn't be spammed.  Now that we are able to cast all our abilities relatively freely their availability creates a race to the bottom when it comes to endless game modes.  

 

I like being able to cast abilities relatively freely, as it opens up more options gameplay-wise.  If I were to attack this problem, I would keep abilities more available (the way they are now) but change the abilities themselves so that they require intelligent use to get the most out of them and promote more interesting gameplay. 

 

I will say that sometimes it's nice to have a radial nuke to save you in a pinch.  Maybe we could give all frames their radial nuke as a separate, "5th abillity" that has limited availability as an emergency save that doesn't use the same resource (energy) used to cast the other abilities.

This is a good idea and solves the problem in a single go.

 

If you need abilities to make the "grind" bearable what are you getting out of playing the game? You want to make the grind as fast and easy as possible so you can do what exactly? Play a different mission? Why not play the other mission in the first place? Maybe this doesn't really address OP's point asking DE to make more interesting enemies while at the same time criticizing an enemy that counters warframe abilities in certain scenarios. If people feel like they have to grind all the time when do they feel like they're not grinding and simply playing the game?

In a nut shell.

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I've said it before, I'll say it again: change Fleeting Expertise to a range malus instead of a duration one.

 

Excalibur wants to cast that cheap nuke? It's gonna be tiny. Hope you've got room in your build for range mods.

This^ Make them actually pay for that spam, this would also ensure that spam players were not able to prevent non spam players from playing in runs with them

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Changing Fleeting Expertise to kill range doesn't help anything. You're hurting people who use the efficiency to use their powers. You're also hurting people who use abilities that require range. A Fleeting Frost build would be meaningless, as all his powers (excluding Freeze) is affected by range. You negate people from playing a certain build. Not to mention a Mag whose build focuses on Pull. Or a Nekros for Desecrate/Terrify. Or a Trinity who goes for Link, or even the majority of her kit. Or a Nyx that goes for Ranged and efficient Absorb and Chaos Builds. Nova's lose their duration and range because of this. We already have a Corrupted Mod that takes away Range for Duration, Narrow Minded. Making two Corrupted Mods both kill this doesn't make sense.

 

You aren't solving a problem, you're creating more in the process. People pay for their play styles, making them pay more isn't helping anyone.



This^ Make them actually pay for that spam, this would also ensure that spam players were not able to prevent non spam players from playing in runs with them

 

You can play with them, no one said you couldn't.

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The only reason why ability spam is a problem is because people use it at lower levels. 

 

Completely maxed out power ,duration or whatver is meant for T4 40 min+.

 

Not lv 20 interception.

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Changing Fleeting Expertise to kill range doesn't help anything. You're hurting people who use the efficiency to use their powers. You're also hurting people who use abilities that require range. A Fleeting Frost build would be meaningless, as all his powers (excluding Freeze) is affected by range. You negate people from playing a certain build. Not to mention a Mag whose build focuses on Pull. Or a Nekros for Desecrate/Terrify. Or a Trinity who goes for Link, or even the majority of her kit. Or a Nyx that goes for Ranged and efficient Absorb and Chaos Builds. Nova's lose their duration and range because of this. We already have a Corrupted Mod that takes away Range for Duration, Narrow Minded. Making two Corrupted Mods both kill this doesn't make sense.

 

You aren't solving a problem, you're creating more in the process. People pay for their play styles, making them pay more isn't helping anyone.

 

You can play with them, no one said you couldn't.

Fleeting isn't an actual tradeoff though. +50% efficiency with -50% duration is just increasing flexibility--now you spend the same amount of time and same energy cost for abilities, but you have the flexibilty to use them differently. Often, it's even beneficial. Chaos, for example, is balanced because players must kill every enemy under its effect to use it again, or wait for it to run out. Fleeting allows players to control the enemies for the same amount of time at the same cost, if they desire, or to control them for half the time if they desire, allowing more flexibility.

For all other usages, it's simply better.

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I've said it before, I'll say it again: change Fleeting Expertise to a range malus instead of a duration one.

 

Excalibur wants to cast that cheap nuke? It's gonna be tiny. Hope you've got room in your build for range mods.

 

This would do exactly nothing except for change the powerful frames.  To be honest, it removes the malus for duration from corrupted mods, so frames with long duration abilities or who aren't effected much by power range would become extremely, incredibly strong, even by comparison to the current norm (Mesa, looking at you).  Mirage/Valkyr/Vauban/Volt would also get really buff with this change, although maybe not as much as Mesa, who would become straight insane, rather than the kind of weak (in late game particularly) that she is now.

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@Oinkah

You touch on some really critical points ad provoked me to consider a concept which would help keep things alive even more so.

 

-  PvP on Invasions.  If 2 Squads happen to be on the same node and are going after the opposite goals, then they will at some point during the mission run into each other and have to deal with that situation.  Of cause this would only happen if the sum total conclaves were within a buffer zone of each other for both squads and a few other factors but little things like this would start to see the game shift from the AI only focus and more and more towards PvP like other games that seem to do well with very little upkeep.

 

Yes I'm thinking of things like Quake 3 Arena and Counter Strike and at how long those games ran/still run with very little additions to the core game mechanics simply because they revolve around both skill based mechanics instead of grinding and also because there is that dynamic edge that PvP has which keeps things fresh.

 

 

I feel that PvP in Warframe currently is being under-used due to there being no resource rewards or XP etc.. so it's not exactly an incentive to run those missions, not to mention that the balancing is still pretty out of whack in there.  I sense that if they could balance PvP properly, we would quickly find the rest of the enemies and PvE content become a lot better as a result of this.

 

Even Q3A and CStrike were great fun against AI so it's probably not just the AI to blame though going up against human players has always been preferential.

 

 

@Ryjeo

 

I agree with what you are saying, the game does benefit from players requesting deeper levels of gameplay that will help to ensure longer usage and also I am somewhat excited to hear that you have managed to ignore the urges to grind for mastery when there is such a violent push in that direction currently.  I personally have not been strong enough to resist the grind rush, though I always feel like I can't wait to get back to focusing on my favourites again.

 

Before the damage 2.0 etc came out and Melee gained this whole channeling system, I played more like you are and had my favourite gear which was frequently being re-forma'd to maximize the builds.  After those changes however, it made me realise how much time I had wasted when DE can easily scrap an entire game mechanic or system which breaks a ton of frames/weapons or gear being used the way you enjoyed them.

 

Made me care less and want to hold on less tightly to any specific frame or weapons in case they got trashed next.  Once the big changes settle down more I'm sure I will feel more safe to select specific loadouts again.

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I agree with you OP +1 I did say in all my posts and threads that we need better and more challenging enemies. Enemy specters are OP, why not implement them as enemies? Or Big heavy enemies with weakspot mechanics like miniboss

and enemies with innate skill resistances and interesting skills

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I agree with you OP +1 I did say in all my posts and threads that we need better and more challenging enemies. Enemy specters are OP, why not implement them as enemies? Or Big heavy enemies with weakspot mechanics like miniboss

and enemies with innate skill resistances and interesting skills

Before dark sectors became PvP I had the most fun fighting the Specters. It was the first time I got to push my frame skills beyond basics and it really was about enjoying the battle/loadout.

Specter AI in PvP now is fairly poor as they dont deactivate armed terminals or revive human players. Their behaviours are probably easier to predict than they were in the original dark sector runs Pre-PvP. It actually seems like a heavily undeveloped or focused area of the game. DE have taken the bots and dropped them into a new map without touching their AI script code at all so they don't seem to even realise there are objectives they are meant to be attacking. Actually I would suspect Spector AI code is a copy and Paste of Stalkers.

To back up this claim there was that stalker bug where he could fight in your squad and would even revive downed team mates or so I was told.

This is pretty significant as a realisation since it show just how little DE are focusing on improving AI and PvP / Skill focused gameplay. They are too busy releasing new frames buried under a pile of grind walls with hefty plat pricetags than working to improve core game mechanics...and then when players find effecient ways to grind they point the finger at a surface problem when the real issue is clearly their focus being on grind content instead of gameplay mechanic imprkvements like it should.

We have enough weapons and frames to sink a battleship..wouldn't it be cheaper to fix fundamental game mechanics like AI scripts than to continue perpetuating the grind wall problem with new content additions which take entire teams of staff to create including riggers, artists, modellers, voice actors, scripters and coders?

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The reason people and DE are bothered by the spamming of abilities has nothing to do with the enemy difficulty actually.

 

The reason it bother the MAJORITY of people that oppose p42w is the fact that it is abusing a broken gating mechanic that no longer serves to balance and keep power use in check. Therefore anyone can run around constantly using the most powerful abilities in the game without a detrimental balancing factor.

 

Powers were designed to use in specific situations to resolve said issue IF you had the energy to do so. It was not meant to be used constantly and unfortunately it became such a wide spread occurrence that it became obvious that it was abuse.

 

Now we are at a pivotal point in the evolution of said occurrences where it is possible to maintain an infinite power supply with or without the original necessary element of said occurrence, Trinity. Please note that it is not Trinities fault all this has occurred, It is the energy gating mechanic that DE themselves ALLOWED to be exploited with bad design decisions(efficiency and energy restores).

 

To be fair though they were good ideas but only if the energy pool had been more limited, however if they had gone that route then anyone that did not use efficiency in build would be screwed(as compared to other players). So what they decided to do was give you the ability to mod either for more energy or more efficiency, but then they did not put an either/or clause into the build mechanics. Thus people got tons of energy and tons of efficiency.

 

Then came another blunder at a chance to help this mechanism succeed, DE implemented casting time as a more profound element, then in the same turn of events released Natural Talent. So they added a negative to #4 nukes and it's solution simultaneously, good job DE.

 

The last straw and what made DE finally acknowledge the exploitation of said energy system was Viver. People blatantly abusing said mechanic for long amounts of time to get around a certain amount of time gating on syndicate rewards.

 

People found a way to be both lazy and rewarded for doing so. That is the crux of the p42w defense couched in the argument of  "freedom of choice and implementation of their STRATEGY is synergy and obviously the devs think we should be allowed to play this way".

 

In short DE themselves have caused this by not nipping it in the bud and even by releasing mods that allow us to go even further with it often.

At this point the only thing that can save us from this is a complete rework of the energy gating mechanic to ensure that all of our content is not trivialized.

 

The problem with this is many fold however due to how enemies have evolved already to cope with our damage in both weapons and powers.

There is a long row to hoe on this one, I just hope they get around to it soon as no one should be able to 30 a weapon in a single run without breaking a sweat. If the devs wanted that they would just increase affinity gains by a ton and be done with it rather than allow people to abuse a mechanic that they know is broken.

 

Normally exploiting is a ban-able offense but when 80% of the population is doing it they have to re-invent the wheel to fix it or they will have no customers at all.(guestimate based on the fact that people generally take the path of least resistance like water when faced with an obstacle) 

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Adjust energy costs... Make ultimates powerful but deplete all energy at once and only when reached max energy.

 

Value of max energy could as well affect the powerlevel of the ultimate to give Flow a bit of extra mechanic.

 

At the same time power efficiency would only affect lower abilities. 

 

This would allow people to spam their abilities but force them to use their ultimates wisely.

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That is a pretty good summary of the situation from a new perspective. If they crushed nrg or eff. Without a full rework on enemies..affinity to next rank, mastery points etc etc, I suspect a majority of players would leave over night..especially whilst the focus of the game is grind driven.

It really is a problem so engrained now i doubt it can easily be repaired as it would be easier to make Warframe 2 then rebuild this so it is balanced again with more healthy gamemodes and focuses that can sustain for greater durations at a time

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Why give players rediculous energy reserves to be able to spam abilities then.. if spamming them is the real problem? Do you see how contradictory these things are?

We get Primed Flow.. yet are being told ability spam is bad? In the right context I have no problem with ability spam but current enemies do not provide this context as highlighted in the Opening Post.

Because there's something altogether different about a Vauban spamming 150 Teslas in a row on his Kubrows butt so that it farts green lightning at incoming enemies, and an Excalibur spamming Radial Javelin every time an enemy is within range and killing them before anyone else can even see them. 

 

AoE instakill spamming is not okay. It seriously ruins the fun for everyone playing, including the spammer. Unless he gets his kicks by showing off how good his build is to people who don't care.

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Adjust energy costs... Make ultimates powerful but deplete all energy at once and only when reached max energy.

 

Value of max energy could as well affect the powerlevel of the ultimate to give Flow a bit of extra mechanic.

 

At the same time power efficiency would only affect lower abilities. 

 

This would allow people to spam their abilities but force them to use their ultimates wisely.

Actually this would only be incentive to commit fully to a power spam build  and use energy restores and or trinity because the ults would be more powerful than they are now. IT's nothing at this point to drop 4 restores right quick then hit the ult. Expensive yeah but totally doable. in addition a well built trinity would score 2 vamps in seconds and let you hit ult np no matter the cost of ultimates.

 

The problem is the way in which ultimates use a static pool of energy, I say static because we have so many methods of just generating infinite energy that it trivializes the entire energy mechanic. Now unfortunately DE has further empowered said players by releasing more mods that support spam even more.

 

An entire rework needs to be completed on the energy system so that it is not possible to exploit said energy loophole that Steve condemned use of.

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Yeah, but you won't hinder people doing that or finding ways for doing that. It's about the amount of obstacles that need to be overcome.

 

On the other hand, there is no reason to change a few other things as well as for example how energy ressources or Trinity work.

 

What you essentially say, is: We can easily create large amounts of energy. That basically means, that nothing will work unless you use cooldowns.

 

To be honest, I thought about it for maybe a few minutes, but I'm sure there are tons of ways to hinder people spamming their ults. Not sure if I want them though.

 

I just thought about how it was before corrupted mods warped gameplay for the worst. I mean, the first thing my friend and I did when we got fleeting expertise was slapping it on Nova to see how abnormal it would just be. We weren't disappointed. Kinda.

 

So yeah. To be honest, Fleeting Expertise became a staple mod, even for me, but I'm not that type of player that finds it amusing or rewarding to press 4 all day.

 

I still like my idea though. It reminds me of the days before corrupted mods. When people "bothered" to use Saryn's first ability instead of just nuke everything to the ground. When it felt somehow special to use an ultimate.

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Adjust energy costs... Make ultimates powerful but deplete all energy at once and only when reached max energy.

Value of max energy could as well affect the powerlevel of the ultimate to give Flow a bit of extra mechanic.

At the same time power efficiency would only affect lower abilities.

This would allow people to spam their abilities but force them to use their ultimates wisely.

I think that we would simply see a shift to frames with stronger 1st..2nd and 3rd abilities taking the lead over frames with powerful 4th abilities.

Whilst the game remains a grindfest with minimal focus on improving gameplay, players will always be compelled to find a new viver and ability spam to speed up reaching the goal of the game.

And even pre-corrupted mods we spent our time finding the fastest way to grind in defense maps like the Corpus map one Eris. We would get a rhin9 with iron skin to wait near the rail below the pod platform and mobs would pack in trying to get him.

We then would have a trinity helping 2 mags crush back to back or other various methods to kill like 3 of us with the Ogris. It was slower than viver but back then rewards didn't take as much to grind for so it wasn't any different really..as it has become easier to endless longer the grind walls have grown too.

My point being that even with no spamable abilities, we were finding ways to use a squad so we got the effect of spamming an ultimate or we replaced it with weapons to do the same job.

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People will always find the strongest loadout in a not perfectly balanced environment.

 

But the first 3 abilities normally don't clear rooms. Antimatter Drop maybe beeing the exception.

 

What it would actually do: People will not use their ults for every two or three enemies or every little squad they encounter.

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I think that we would simply see a shift to frames with stronger 1st..2nd and 3rd abilities taking the lead over frames with powerful 4th abilities.

Whilst the game remains a grindfest with minimal focus on improving gameplay, players will always be compelled to find a new viver and ability spam to speed up reaching the goal of the game.

This is the crux of quite few ideas on the matter. So we have been talking and the most well received idea is to not focus on spammers and instead focus on ways to make it MORE rewarding to play in another way than mindlessly spamming 4...check this out

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/381628-warframe-development-difficulty-expansion/#entry4210958

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This is the crux of quite few ideas on the matter. So we have been talking and the most well received idea is to not focus on spammers and instead focus on ways to make it MORE rewarding to play in another way than mindlessly spamming 4...check this out

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/381628-warframe-development-difficulty-expansion/#entry4210958

Of course I still support any change in our current system to prevent this "exploit"(DESteves words not mine, although I totally agree ^^)

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People will always find the strongest loadout in a not perfectly balanced environment.

 

But the first 3 abilities normally don't clear rooms. Antimatter Drop maybe beeing the exception.

 

What it would actually do: People will not use their ults for every two or three enemies or every little squad they encounter.

Mag is a good example of a frame that never uses Crush. you clear rooms with SP and Pull very quickly.

Frost is all about the snow globes (3).

loki would switch tp to high points(1 & 2) and rocket spam mobs

Vauban doesn't even need energy eff. For his ultimate to work well

Nekros desecrates(3)

Nova can do a loki plus AMD groups of enemies

And so on it goes. It would only be a matter of time before the hoard shifted to these tactics as it doesn't fix the underlying problem which causes players to spend their time playing doing such repetitive and uninspiring acts.

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Yeah, but then we have a problem with those abilities anyways. My systems prevents ultimate abusing to a degree, but I think for example Volt should be able to shock the hell out of enemies... It's not like Amprex couldn't do it better anyways.

 

But you have to decide what you actually want. The topic is about ultspamming. Why shouldn't synergy be rewarding?

 

Ok, cheesy tactics aside... How else do you want to function warframe?

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Mag is a good example of a frame that never uses Crush. you clear rooms with SP and Pull very quickly.

Frost is all about the snow globes (3).

loki would switch tp to high points(1 & 2) and rocket spam mobs

Vauban doesn't even need energy eff. For his ultimate to work well

Nekros desecrates(3)

Nova can do a loki plus AMD groups of enemies

And so on it goes. It would only be a matter of time before the hoard shifted to these tactics as it doesn't fix the underlying problem which causes players to spend their time playing doing such repetitive and uninspiring acts.

The tactics you mention are still better than the ones we have as prevalent now.

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