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Jax_Cavalera

Tactic Selections - Putting A Stop To Macro Farming, Rng And Grind Walls

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They aren't hitting the players, they're making enemies better, that's a better route to take because you add in challenges that make us think, grows the responses of our enemies, rather than weakening our tools to make the game boring. Remember, even after he said that for Vivergate, they've released Primed Flow, Primed Continuity, and Primed Streamline is on the way, I believe. Yeah...no, they're not trying to hurt the availability of powers, tough luck bucko.

 

Must I really use the actions speak louder than words thing again? I thought we were past this by now.

So at this point your just ignoring the fact that he said the loophole is the problem?

Energy should not be available 100% of the time. It is a metric designed to meter ability usage and in it's current iteration it is circumvented from doing it's job. They will fix it just wait. See what happens rather than argue something that neither you nor I can prove at this point because quite frankly we are both tired of the necessity to defend our points of view

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So at this point your just ignoring the fact that he said the loophole is the problem?

Energy should not be available 100% of the time. It is a metric designed to meter ability usage and in it's current iteration it is circumvented from doing it's job. They will fix it just wait. See what happens rather than argue something that neither you nor I can prove at this point because quite frankly we are both tired of the necessity to defend our points of view

I'm not ignoring the fact that he said that. I'm acknowledging that fact, and giving you the more recent fact that they've given us mods to increase the availability of our powers. He said one thing, quite a while ago, and then DE proceeded to give us these mods. Shouldn't that tell you something?

 

Energy isn't available all the time, Genin. Not everyone goes for max efficiency builds. Even if it was available, those who go for max strength (Blind Rage included) have to deal with that energy going quickly.

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So at what point along the way in the OP listed order of processes would Cooldowns best fit being introduced?

Any inspiration for ways to substitute frustration inducing grind walls to encourage platinum sales?

Feedback on the viability of such drastic changes. I think it is better to provide a solution based on feedback to combat ability spam and what causes it to dominate gameplay currently then to just give up on ever seeing the game reach full potential.

What other steps could be put in place to improve the currently proposed alterations to Warframe so Ability Spam can really be a thing of the past and not because we can't still do it necessarily but due to there not being and real purpose for doing it?

To answer that question it is helpful to first address the reasons why we spam to determine if the listed changes would remove or reduce the need for spamming.

Will removing Ability Spam be enough or will the problem re-surface in a new way if all DE do to fix this is gate ability usage?

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So at what point along the way in the OP listed order of processes would Cooldowns best fit being introduced?

Any inspiration for ways to substitute frustration inducing grind walls to encourage platinum sales?

Feedback on the viability of such drastic changes. I think it is better to provide a solution based on feedback to combat ability spam and what causes it to dominate gameplay currently then to just give up on ever seeing the game reach full potential.

What other steps could be put in place to improve the currently proposed alterations to Warframe so Ability Spam can really be a thing of the past and not because we can't still do it necessarily but due to there not being and real purpose for doing it?

To answer that question it is helpful to first address the reasons why we spam to determine if the listed changes would remove or reduce the need for spamming.

Will removing Ability Spam be enough or will the problem re-surface in a new way if all DE do to fix this is gate ability usage?

This is a sincerely touchy question and while many different equally viable options have been brought to the table, individuals that enjoy the current availability of powers are not amenable to any change at all. Unfortunately the community will not come to a consensus on this matter because of a few factors.

 

1. This is the most important factor to said players. Currently they can access and use all powers almost freely given certain builds. Even on non efficiency based builds they can still use powers moderately effectively so this gives powers ample opportunity to be utilized when and where they are needed.

2. The current energy system promotes player choice in different caster builds.

3. Easy farming if they so choose.

4. DE refuses to reduce the grind because it is the source of most of their purchases, either to avoid grind or RNG in general due to the frustration factor.

 

This is a tall order to fill in order to meet those players expectations and I have been working for a few weeks now to at least get some to see the problem, but from their perspective the problem is imagined entirely and does not exist.

 

Thus the crux of the situation. How can one work out a solution to a problem that one party does not even see?

I have tried to work out commensurate buffs to increase scaling and effectiveness of current abilities in order to promote their use on a meaningful level in many different ways but it is always NO LEAVE IT ALONE! WE LIKE IT SO IT'S NOT A PROBLEM!, of course the same can be said of my side EXCEPT I am ambivalent honestly to whether the guy next to me spams or not, however many of my clanmates and former clammates are not happy with it at all because even in scenarios where it is not necessary to constantly use skill spam players have said right to do so because of an admittedly broken mechanic designed to meter ability use. DESteve is quoted saying clearly that the mechanic has a loophole that is being exploited and yet it is still a point of contention because they then released primed mods that further support said spam.

 

The community will not back down no matter what side of the fence they are on but at least those who are asking for a change are willing to work with the others. While the other side only see it as a direct attack on their freedom of choice(this is not an accusation just a statement of fact).

 

In closing to answer the final question, if DE gated abilities in an immutable way(ie: players could not influence regeneration of energy,energy incoming) then yes it would work as a permanent solution, HOWEVER the players that are used to the current playstyle will not tolerate change well. So in order for it to be implemented and stick DE would also have to be immutable on the topic and stand by their design implementation without flinching at the criticisms.

 

In this way the game could remain unique and not a cookie cutter shooter the powers would just need to be more fully fleshed(meaning worthwhile to use) out and more over the top in order to still have that wow factor to make this the premiere f2p shooter.

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Energy isn't available all the time, Genin. Not everyone goes for max efficiency builds. Even if it was available, those who go for max strength (Blind Rage included) have to deal with that energy going quickly.

To be fair, there are very few cases where max efficiency isn't the best option.  Certainly, Blind Rage above rank 2 is almost never worth it.  

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To be fair, there are very few cases where max efficiency isn't the best option.  Certainly, Blind Rage above rank 2 is almost never worth it.  

I guess that would depend on player preference. I actually do run max Power Strength/Duration/Armor on my Frost Prime for my defensive build.

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I said he could have asked. I didn't say he was forced to ask. Common sense should tell you if you want to test a weapon, it isn't going to be easy to test with everyone else blowing up things with their guns and powers.

I shouldnt be forced to use fully ranked weapons in missions

 

I should have the freedom to choose to use whatever i want at any level and you shouldnt be forcing me to either go solo or have everything killed so i cant gain exp

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I shouldnt be forced to use fully ranked weapons in missions

 

I should have the freedom to choose to use whatever i want at any level and you shouldnt be forcing me to either go solo or have everything killed so i cant gain exp

Haha, I'm not forcing you to do anything.

 

I'm just pointing out that going to try and test something where everyone else is also either testing something or blowing things up isn't going to be easy to do. If your allies kill things, you gain exp, not as much, but you still do. Just pointing that out.

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I guess that would depend on player preference. I actually do run max Power Strength/Duration/Armor on my Frost Prime for my defensive build.

Player preference makes little difference when you consider youre getting more damage,stun, and utility per energy used with efficiency in most cases

 

Haha, I'm not forcing you to do anything.

Funny that you say that now

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Player preference makes little difference when you consider youre getting more damage,stun, and utility per energy used with efficiency in most cases

 

Funny that you say that now

Look dude, you choose how you play, that's the point of us having preferences. If you did the numbers and that's what you got, gold star for you. Doesn't mean I'm changing up my defensive Frost Build because you think another is better.

 

I've said that in every post, or meant it in every post. People are gonna play in PUB's and not play like you, best you can do is ask them if they could tone it down for that round. Best part is, there will also be players that play like you. Jist of it all, you get apples sometimes and oranges sometimes, doesn't mean using an apple to make apple juice is gonna jive well when everyone else is squirting oranges everywhere. Sometimes it's best to do it in private, though how you do it, is all up to you.

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Look dude, you choose how you play, that's the point of us having preferences. If you did the numbers and that's what you got, gold star for you. Doesn't mean I'm changing up my defensive Frost Build because you think another is better.

 

I've said that in every post, or meant it in every post. People are gonna play in PUB's and not play like you, best you can do is ask them if they could tone it down for that round. Best part is, there will also be players that play like you. Jist of it all, you get apples sometimes and oranges sometimes, doesn't mean using an apple to make apple juice is gonna jive well when everyone else is squirting oranges everywhere. Sometimes it's best to do it in private, though how you do it, is all up to you.

The problem is the way it is now preferences are out shined but something thats vastly more efficient to the point where its enforced onto others wether they like it or not

 

Your entire argument is based on hypocrisy because of this alone.

 

The other issues mentioned are being entirely ignored by subjectivity that when thrown back is argued with more subjectivity

 

I dont have an issue with people playing the way they want, and if you dont believe me ask anyone thats ever run a Tiered mission ive hosted. I accept all ranks and any frame  as long as they arent something like a rank 1-2 with new gear that shouldnt be shooting for end game gear.

 

When asked what frame id prefer i tell them to bring what they like.

 

It isnt about forcing you to do anything or preventing you from doing anything as much as something in the game hurting the game greatly that i along with many others would like to have changed,reduced, or removed for the sake of the game.

 

Stop making it personal and realize that theres more to this than how people want to play or forcing something onto someone

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The problem is the way it is now preferences are out shined but something thats vastly more efficient to the point where its enforced onto others wether they like it or not

 

Your entire argument is based on hypocrisy because of this alone.

 

The other issues mentioned are being entirely ignored by subjectivity that when thrown back is argued with more subjectivity

 

I dont have an issue with people playing the way they want, and if you dont believe me ask anyone thats ever run a Tiered mission ive hosted. I accept all ranks and any frame  as long as they arent something like a rank 1-2 with new gear that shouldnt be shooting for end game gear.

 

When asked what frame id prefer i tell them to bring what they like.

 

It isnt about forcing you to do anything or preventing you from doing anything as much as something in the game hurting the game greatly that i along with many others would like to have changed,reduced, or removed for the sake of the game.

 

Stop making it personal and realize that theres more to this than how people want to play or forcing something onto someone

Literally no one is forcing anyone to do anything. Nothing's forced, everyone has a choice. I honestly don't know how you feel threatened that people have that choice, or feel like the choice is already made for them.

 

So a Soma is gonna kill faster than an MK Braton, if you wanna use the Braton, that's all up to you. The Soma is faster, but hey, if you wanna use the Braton, all you my friend.

 

So I can "spam" my abilities. That's a bad thing? I'm not one of those guys that spam just one ability, I like using everything, because everything is a lot more fun than pressing one boring button over and over again. That's hurting the game? Playing the game with the tools that DE has given me and using those tools to complete the tasks that DE has given me, is hurting the game?

 

Oh wait lemme think, it's not the tools that are hurting the game, it's how I'm using those tools? Is that what you think? I like being able to use all my powers for missions if I go Offensive Frost. To me that isn't bad, it's cool because I modded for it. How's it bad that I modded for exactly what I wanted?

 

A change to the game, one as massive as this, directly affects and hinders how some people like to play. It is literally forcing something onto someone else. Not just someone else, literally everyone in the game.

 

I'm glad you don't force people to use certain gear for your mission runs, that's good on you.

 

My entire argument isn't even hypocritical, I said we have choice, and we do.

 

There will always be a "Fastest way to achieve a task" in any game. Taking away one avenue isn't going to solve the problem, people will just find another "Fastest way to achieve a task" and the cycle continues. Be it with guns or with powers. People will always find the fastest and most efficient way to get something done.

 

Best part is, not everyone does it. Hek, not even a lot of people do it, the most recent Hot Topic will give you the numbers. People use some/all of their powers, and a sliver of a fraction, not the majority, not even a quarter of the majority, voted that they just pressed one boring monotonous button to get the job done.

 

There will always be a "Fast lane", that goes for this game and any game. But the best part about this game is that you can take your merry time if you want, enjoy the view, go sight seeing, take a detour, and decide how you get to the top parts of the game. The "fast lane" is there, but so is your choice on what to do.

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Look guys I've argued long and hard on the issue with AlphaHorseman(longer and much more frequently than any of you in fact, I can cite posts if this must be a pi$$ing contest but I would prefer not to) and I can tell you from long experience that bickering does not help the situation, however understanding that within the frame of decisions we are given, it is possible viable and even supported in WFs current iteration is virtually a fact.

 

While I do not support the playstyle that we three are bothered by we must at some point sincerely agree to disagree, provide our points and drop the point we were arguing over. Primarily because it is like beating a dead horse as I said before. That horse won't getup and go no more.

What you can do is offer suggestions to change a contributing factor to the mindset of p42w which is what the thread is about.

 

So first off Grind is a contributing factor, but we cannot get grind removed or alleviated in any way.

 

The first thing that comes to my mind is PVP that can be rewarding in it's own right both physically and mentally. I know a ton of player here scream that this is a PvE game, but if I'm being totally honest, every single other shooter in existence must have great PvP because that's where the true challenge lies.

 

No computer can ever be as engaging or adaptable as another player and therefore no other experience will ever beat a 4v4 human experience. What I'm proposing is BALANCED gameplay folks base weapons and WF abilities no mods(barring Vitality/Redirection/Vigor/Steel Fiber/Autoguard, players may choose 2 each). The reason I say 2 survival mods is that as long as you have the frame and the weapon you are as good as you're going to get. Additionally it ensures no one has anything more than a bare margin of difference in their power. Conclave is unnecessary at this point as there are no mods on anything to make it op as hell and thus that factor is gone. Some will claim this defeats the purpose of a caster build and they would be right. It negates the inherent benefits of choosing one way or another in favor of putting your chosen frame and weapons to the test in a pure show of skill undiluted by anything that can be considered broken or op. Yes some weapons will be inherently better than others for various reasons but it is entirely up to players what they prefer in their hands and how the can utilize it plus most weapons have some kind of stat out of the box that's pretty good and learning to utilize weapons to their fullest is a kind of reward on it's own.

 

Yes it's true Loki could have stealth and yes it's true Rhino could have IS, and Valkyr hysteria and so forth, however then comes the dynamic of having one place where the energy ball spawns and teams vie over said energy in order to see who gets access to the first ult or whatever ability. Then we find out if they use said energy well or in a truly worthless manner, thus we separate the good from the bad. Additionally the nice thing here is that fights would continue between skilled players for potentially really long periods of time rather than the quick 1 shotting that occurs mostly now, however skill would be an abundant source of survivability.

 

In order to further reinforce this skill aspect I would have stamina disabled and allow infinite parrying. This would further ensure that two very skilled users could put on one helluva show, in fact I've been trying to put together all my thoughts on an idea for the relays centered around Arena fights and potentially betting among spectators if DE could set it up some how. Bookie bot where are you? Additionally we could have platinum betting for the fighters allowing them to really put their money where their mouth is minimum 1 plat maximum 5 plat to be an incetive for players to try their sills versus each other and I was thinking that if DE went all out on this kind of thing then providing Wraith or Vandal equivalent weapons and or skins for frames even as rewards for earning a certain amount of shall we call it "Fight Club" points or maybe "True Tenno Conflict" coins IDK. It still feels like to me we players need a way to literally let it all hang out and really put our arses on the line for some recognition in our Tenno society.

 

It's nice being op to the Grineer, Corpus, Infested, and Corrupted, but it would be sweeter still to be a recognized bada$$ among the whole group of legendary Tenno that make up our community.

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I suppose it can be mistaken that I am trying to force people to play a certain way by initiating discussion about how we can resolve the current flaws that encourage players to Speed Grind via Ability Spam.

 

This was never my intention and I actually believe that there could be a way in which you could achieve the intended goal without limiting how a player decides to approach the game.

 

 

The major issue with Spam Abilities is that they can be macro automated which means a group or individual can set up multiple stations / VM's on a powerful computer and set the macro keys to run and walk away for a day.

 

They come back and have a ton of resources, mods and rewards.  This is also why we now have an Anti-AFK system in place as players were dragging 3 Alt Accounts through their Tower Missions etc.. and then feeding the rewards into their Main for boosts to Plat Sales.

 

 

DE are clearly targeting Automated Macro Farmers and sadly the community are paying the price as a whole, for the minority who do this.

 

 

The goal of this topic to be very clear is to Improve the following :

 

 

-  Grinds/RNG Reliance, as this is how Macro Farmers are making profits and what gives them incentive to even try finding ways of abusing the system.

 

-  Ability Spam being resorted to as the primary method of beating the Grind/RNG

 

 

I actually enjoy playing the game and knowing I can build my frames to be very good at 1 or 2 approaches whilst crippling my other options.  It lets me have variety in builds using the same frame.

 

Mag was a great example of this where I had 3 major builds :

 

1. CC Mag - Using Greedy Pull and Max Efficiency with Max Flow and Range  -  I dealt little to no damage to the enemies being CC'd but could butcher them with my weapons and then drag the loot to where I was taking cover

 

2. Shield Polarize Mag - Using Max Strength, Poor-to-Average at best Efficiency and Moderate Range

 

3. Speed Runner Mag - Using Rush, Max Efficiency and Range, with Vitality, Redirection, Vigor so I could zip through the level taking the occasional heavy damage to reach the objective quickly and then get out relying mostly on weapons for damage.

 

 

In each scenario I spam a lot of abilities frequently (1 and 2 mostly with the occasional 3 or 4 if against a boss or weak enemies)

 

 

I enjoy doing all of these things so I have no intention of proposing an idea that would break my ability to play in such a variety of different ways.

 

 

I agree with the overview of the situation we are in which was explained by Geninrising recently.  I also can see that both AlphaHorseman and Azawarau are somewhat saying the same thing for the most part and yet can see the difference perhaps in the underlying motivations.

 

 

@Geninrising

Your proposed solution would resolve the issue of players spamming abilities and make it harder for Macro Farmers to keep feeding.  The downside would be that it would also cripple the rest of the community in terms of allowing us to continue playing with very unbalanced builds that are only good at 1 or 2 things as well as Synergizing.

 

The community would likely come up with a new Hybrid technique for using specific weapons and abilities or just abilities in tandem to achieve similar results eventually.  The question is, would this new approach be automatable via Macros?

 

What is your take on the concept of unique mission rewards based on how a majority of the mission was completed?  In a sense it forces players to play the game in different approaches if they want to get all possible rewards.  At the same time, it makes trying to macro to get every possible reward a living hell whilst human players can easily build for it as they don't need to write walls of code and automation to handle the changes.

 

 

-------

 

Regarding the idea of improved PVP, I don't want to discuss it as a primary objective too much in this topic since in the currently proposed state wouldn't directly resolve Ability Spam though I mention an idea on how it could drive this concept towards that goal.

 

However, I love it and am also bothered by it at the same time.

 

The Good

 

-  A push for balance in an aspect of the game that needs it which would encourage player to really have something dynamic to play and enjoy

 

-  Extends the length of time players will enjoy Warframe for

 

-  A chance to test our skills on an even playing field

 

- The betting is a cool idea and if handled properly would be great.. I would recommend that DE take a cut from all bets so that this can turn into a new means of revenue / plat. termination.  Also worth mentioning that other games that go this road find it hard to break the whole "supporting teenage gambling" stamp which may play a role in deterring DE from officially endorsing this behavior or even tolerating it long term..though we are talking about an MA15+ game right?  so it shouldn't be an issue but the media love a good "Evil company endorses Teenage Gambling Habits".

 

- DE offering players a choice of various items and NOT as RNG for winning a match would be pretty cool..syndicate representation rewards or whatever IDK.  Perhaps Syndicate REP belongs in the context of PvP and not the main game.  This would actually resolve a lot of incentive players have to Ability Spam and Rep Farm.

 

 

Issues

 

Issue 1.  It fails to recognize that Veteran players are not just skilled because of their aim and agility but also due to how well they have mastered using abilities and specific unbalanced build types.

 

Fix 1.  Introduce a loadout zone where players can modify their load out mid mission but it requires going back to where the zone is located.  Based on conclave, have damage buffs/nerfs so players can still run with their full load outs from the beginning.

 

Fix 1.a As players get kills, they gain points to spend at the Load-Out zone and have access to every single mod / weapon in the game.. not just the ones that they have farmed for in regular warframe.  Players don't keep any of this when the match is over or they exit PvP, however each kill is worth X quantity of experience and that experience is shared between the load out of the frame that the player enters PvP using.  Could be a good way to level hard to use gear. 

 

Problem with this is that entering a game late would result in you being fodder since it would be hard to get a kill vs someone that has been in the match for a while and obtained a lot of points.  Could be balanced with X points gained per player that joins .. or joining boosts the lowest point to a new average etc.. lot could be done but again it isn't perfect from the outset and requires a lot of work to make good.

 

 

Issue 2.  Resources and end game rewards need to be offered somehow as just killing for XP and credits is not enough of an incentive for me.

 

Fix 2 Introduce resource drops to the mission and add sub-objectives which provide bonus rewards similar to badges in BF3 or achievements in other games.

 

perhaps this just further perpetuates the problem of grind walls and I am thinking that for Warframe grind walls are not something we can remove completely but perhaps a dependence on them is something we could consider reducing in exchange of other method for income generation as they appear to be the number 1 cause of why players ability spam or speed farm right?

 

 

@ AlphaHorseman 

 

I can see that you make a lot of strong points which I am in all for as well, I don't think a majority of players want to see their ability to decide how they play restricted.. probably why we all voted that we use all or most abilities even though the truth is very different from that when you se any pub games and look at which nodes are the most played currently.

 

We all don't want to see our approach to the game restricted ESPECIALLY when it will just make beating grind walls and RNG an even more slow and painful process.  This is why I believe it is critical to get your input on ways to complete the current objective of the thread so that this doesn't happen.  History has shown that DE are trigger happy on terrible Band-Aid solutions instead of doing what should really be done.  If we can provide some solid solutions that the entire community can get behind then I think we will see the death of the Macro Farmer without crippling the regular players ability to have freedom of choice in how they play.

 

 

@Azawarau

 

I rarely play PUB matches because when I log into the game I have a specific goal in mind for the time I will be playing and it can be risky to dive into random missions having everyone go out doing their own thing.  I mean this in the context of a mission I am playing not everyone and how they all want to play missions.

 

If someone wants to become a Hallway Hero, that's fine and good so long as it isn't during a mission where I am meant to get 10 Stealth Kills, because that just won't happen for me as they will all be alerted long before I am close to my objectives.  For this reason alone I will often play with people I know are good communicators and we voice our sub-missions before we kick off the mission so everyone gets a positive result.

 

I wouldn't recommend someone jumping into a PUB game to test out a new unranked weapon as it won't be fair on those playing the mission as well as the person trying to test out the weapon.  However, there are no rules in place that prohibit a player from doing this.  If all members of the PUB squad are good communicators then it may not even be a problem.. this is rare though and often players are trying to achieve undeclared sub-objectives without any real coordination between the squad.

 

This usually leads to outbursts and issues where the players who wanted to achieve a specific approach to the game and those who are not interested in communicating and working together can cost a match.

 

The easy solution is to use the technology at our disposal so you can have a little control over who is playing in your squad/missions and communicate goals where possible.  I really don't believe that a player should have the right to go into your game and start sabotaging everything by not communicating and becoming rambo on the outskirts of the map whilst you are trying to defend an objective.

 

It is counter productive, selfish and poor manners. If they want to do those things they have the freedom to do so using Solo mode or to communicate their intent inside recruiting and wait for other like minded players to sign up.

 

it's really just a matter of mutual respect, not imposing our game play into someones squad without communicating intent and discussing an approach that can work for everyone involved.

 

 

Perhaps this is what you are also saying as well or:

 

Perhaps you are trying to convey that players are being limited to approaches in game because of how the game is constructed.  Because DE have engineered the game to be played a certain way and players are finding the most efficient way to beat this.. it is impossible/very hard to find players that are ok with alternative game play approaches to the most common and preferred one.

 

To that extent, finding a solution which will allow players to have more variety by rewarding more variety in game play approaches could work as a solution or part of the solution, what are your thoughts?

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Literally no one is forcing anyone to do anything. Nothing's forced, everyone has a choice. I honestly don't know how you feel threatened that people have that choice, or feel like the choice is already made for them.

 

So a Soma is gonna kill faster than an MK Braton, if you wanna use the Braton, that's all up to you. The Soma is faster, but hey, if you wanna use the Braton, all you my friend.

 

So I can "spam" my abilities. That's a bad thing? I'm not one of those guys that spam just one ability, I like using everything, because everything is a lot more fun than pressing one boring button over and over again. That's hurting the game? Playing the game with the tools that DE has given me and using those tools to complete the tasks that DE has given me, is hurting the game?

 

Oh wait lemme think, it's not the tools that are hurting the game, it's how I'm using those tools? Is that what you think? I like being able to use all my powers for missions if I go Offensive Frost. To me that isn't bad, it's cool because I modded for it. How's it bad that I modded for exactly what I wanted?

 

A change to the game, one as massive as this, directly affects and hinders how some people like to play. It is literally forcing something onto someone else. Not just someone else, literally everyone in the game.

 

I'm glad you don't force people to use certain gear for your mission runs, that's good on you.

 

My entire argument isn't even hypocritical, I said we have choice, and we do.

 

There will always be a "Fastest way to achieve a task" in any game. Taking away one avenue isn't going to solve the problem, people will just find another "Fastest way to achieve a task" and the cycle continues. Be it with guns or with powers. People will always find the fastest and most efficient way to get something done.

 

Best part is, not everyone does it. Hek, not even a lot of people do it, the most recent Hot Topic will give you the numbers. People use some/all of their powers, and a sliver of a fraction, not the majority, not even a quarter of the majority, voted that they just pressed one boring monotonous button to get the job done.

 

There will always be a "Fast lane", that goes for this game and any game. But the best part about this game is that you can take your merry time if you want, enjoy the view, go sight seeing, take a detour, and decide how you get to the top parts of the game. The "fast lane" is there, but so is your choice on what to do.

So youre just gonna ride it off as if people spamming 4 arent forcing you to not play the game?

 

Or rather forcing you to either not play or leave?

 

How about forcing you to avoid certain nodes?

 

Lets forget forcing anyone to do anything because thats entirely off the point

 

Its not about what youre forced to do. I want you to reply without mentioning being forced as best as you can

 

With the way we can kill enemies in mass VIA 4 spam and energy loops and trivializing enemies to the point where the game becomes more like a classic hit button until the thing dies game"

 

Do you not see anything wrong with this? Do you not see anything wrong with it obsoleting and trivializing other forms of gameplay in terms of not just game balance but fairness to other players who dont want to cheat the game on something even a dev called an exploit? Is there nothing wrong with infinite energy looping to the point where an 8 hour survival can be done by hiding behind walls and hitting a few buttons occasionally

 

Look guys I've argued long and hard on the issue with AlphaHorseman(longer and much more frequently than any of you in fact, I can cite posts if this must be a pi$$ing contest but I would prefer not to) and I can tell you from long experience that bickering does not help the situation, however understanding that within the frame of decisions we are given, it is possible viable and even supported in WFs current iteration is virtually a fact.

 

While I do not support the playstyle that we three are bothered by we must at some point sincerely agree to disagree, provide our points and drop the point we were arguing over. Primarily because it is like beating a dead horse as I said before. That horse won't getup and go no more.

What you can do is offer suggestions to change a contributing factor to the mindset of p42w which is what the thread is about.

 

So first off Grind is a contributing factor, but we cannot get grind removed or alleviated in any way.

 

The first thing that comes to my mind is PVP that can be rewarding in it's own right both physically and mentally. I know a ton of player here scream that this is a PvE game, but if I'm being totally honest, every single other shooter in existence must have great PvP because that's where the true challenge lies.

 

No computer can ever be as engaging or adaptable as another player and therefore no other experience will ever beat a 4v4 human experience. What I'm proposing is BALANCED gameplay folks base weapons and WF abilities no mods(barring Vitality/Redirection/Vigor/Steel Fiber/Autoguard, players may choose 2 each). The reason I say 2 survival mods is that as long as you have the frame and the weapon you are as good as you're going to get. Additionally it ensures no one has anything more than a bare margin of difference in their power. Conclave is unnecessary at this point as there are no mods on anything to make it op as hell and thus that factor is gone. Some will claim this defeats the purpose of a caster build and they would be right. It negates the inherent benefits of choosing one way or another in favor of putting your chosen frame and weapons to the test in a pure show of skill undiluted by anything that can be considered broken or op. Yes some weapons will be inherently better than others for various reasons but it is entirely up to players what they prefer in their hands and how the can utilize it plus most weapons have some kind of stat out of the box that's pretty good and learning to utilize weapons to their fullest is a kind of reward on it's own.

 

Yes it's true Loki could have stealth and yes it's true Rhino could have IS, and Valkyr hysteria and so forth, however then comes the dynamic of having one place where the energy ball spawns and teams vie over said energy in order to see who gets access to the first ult or whatever ability. Then we find out if they use said energy well or in a truly worthless manner, thus we separate the good from the bad. Additionally the nice thing here is that fights would continue between skilled players for potentially really long periods of time rather than the quick 1 shotting that occurs mostly now, however skill would be an abundant source of survivability.

 

In order to further reinforce this skill aspect I would have stamina disabled and allow infinite parrying. This would further ensure that two very skilled users could put on one helluva show, in fact I've been trying to put together all my thoughts on an idea for the relays centered around Arena fights and potentially betting among spectators if DE could set it up some how. Bookie bot where are you? Additionally we could have platinum betting for the fighters allowing them to really put their money where their mouth is minimum 1 plat maximum 5 plat to be an incetive for players to try their sills versus each other and I was thinking that if DE went all out on this kind of thing then providing Wraith or Vandal equivalent weapons and or skins for frames even as rewards for earning a certain amount of shall we call it "Fight Club" points or maybe "True Tenno Conflict" coins IDK. It still feels like to me we players need a way to literally let it all hang out and really put our arses on the line for some recognition in our Tenno society.

 

It's nice being op to the Grineer, Corpus, Infested, and Corrupted, but it would be sweeter still to be a recognized bada$$ among the whole group of legendary Tenno that make up our community.

Theres no point in dropping it

 

Eventually well come to some conclusion

 

Leaving it be to come back another day is not a solution

 

 

 

@Azawarau

 

I rarely play PUB matches because when I log into the game I have a specific goal in mind for the time I will be playing and it can be risky to dive into random missions having everyone go out doing their own thing.  I mean this in the context of a mission I am playing not everyone and how they all want to play missions.

 

If someone wants to become a Hallway Hero, that's fine and good so long as it isn't during a mission where I am meant to get 10 Stealth Kills, because that just won't happen for me as they will all be alerted long before I am close to my objectives.  For this reason alone I will often play with people I know are good communicators and we voice our sub-missions before we kick off the mission so everyone gets a positive result.

 

I wouldn't recommend someone jumping into a PUB game to test out a new unranked weapon as it won't be fair on those playing the mission as well as the person trying to test out the weapon.  However, there are no rules in place that prohibit a player from doing this.  If all members of the PUB squad are good communicators then it may not even be a problem.. this is rare though and often players are trying to achieve undeclared sub-objectives without any real coordination between the squad.

 

This usually leads to outbursts and issues where the players who wanted to achieve a specific approach to the game and those who are not interested in communicating and working together can cost a match.

 

The easy solution is to use the technology at our disposal so you can have a little control over who is playing in your squad/missions and communicate goals where possible.  I really don't believe that a player should have the right to go into your game and start sabotaging everything by not communicating and becoming rambo on the outskirts of the map whilst you are trying to defend an objective.

 

It is counter productive, selfish and poor manners. If they want to do those things they have the freedom to do so using Solo mode or to communicate their intent inside recruiting and wait for other like minded players to sign up.

 

it's really just a matter of mutual respect, not imposing our game play into someones squad without communicating intent and discussing an approach that can work for everyone involved.

 

 

Perhaps this is what you are also saying as well or:

 

Perhaps you are trying to convey that players are being limited to approaches in game because of how the game is constructed.  Because DE have engineered the game to be played a certain way and players are finding the most efficient way to beat this.. it is impossible/very hard to find players that are ok with alternative game play approaches to the most common and preferred one.

 

To that extent, finding a solution which will allow players to have more variety by rewarding more variety in game play approaches could work as a solution or part of the solution, what are your thoughts?

Ecept DE didnt intend to make the game that way

 

Its become clear by the changes theyre actively making to try to stop it

 

Though they come back and contradict the changes with mods, things are still in beta and they have directly stated that this form of play is an exploit

 

Theres no doubt of the hypocrisy and bias of defenders.

 

Its up to DE to actually make a stand on something otherwise theyre the biggest part of the issue

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So youre just gonna ride it off as if people spamming 4 arent forcing you to not play the game?

 

Or rather forcing you to either not play or leave?

 

How about forcing you to avoid certain nodes?

 

Lets forget forcing anyone to do anything because thats entirely off the point

 

Its not about what youre forced to do. I want you to reply without mentioning being forced as best as you can

 

With the way we can kill enemies in mass VIA 4 spam and energy loops and trivializing enemies to the point where the game becomes more like a classic hit button until the thing dies game"

 

Do you not see anything wrong with this? Do you not see anything wrong with it obsoleting and trivializing other forms of gameplay in terms of not just game balance but fairness to other players who dont want to cheat the game on something even a dev called an exploit? Is there nothing wrong with infinite energy looping to the point where an 8 hour survival can be done by hiding behind walls and hitting a few buttons occasionally

To the first half, you have options, and you can use those options. Failure to utilize those options are your own fault. It doesn't mean the entirety of the game needs to be changed for you not utilizing your options.

 

You realize that those skills have been built with end-game levels of damage? If you build for end-tier content, you're going to destroy anything that isn't end-tier. My bow can hit 40k, it trivializes anything that doesn't say T4 Bombard written across the forehead, and even the ones that do have it written across the forehead, I just aim for the head and they die, all the same. The jist of it is that anything that is built for end-tier is going to destroy anything that isn't end-tier with a click of a button. Be that button a number key or a mouse.

 

Is it wrong for us to have end-tier builds? No, it isn't. Is it wrong for us to use these on lower level nodes? No, it still isn't, because we built things that way. It's wrong when we're being forced to go to those nodes because we have to farm for a certain resource, or re-level a weapon/frame, or do whatever mediocre task there is to do. We bring those builds into lower tier content because we have to farm things, be it resources or credits or mods. We bring that gun, or that frame, because they represent a fast and efficient way to get what we want.

 

Outside of the void, there's literally nothing to do that isn't differed from the beginning of the game until the end of it. And even the end-tier of the void pulls in enemies from the already existing content, to do the mission types that have been copied from the already existing content. We're bored because we do the same thing and fight the same enemies, the only difference is the HP/Armor/Shields and how much damage they can dish out. If you give people better content that is differentiated from the already existing content, if you give them a reason to use those builds, a reason to challenge the integrity of those builds, rewards for going to those places outside of just prime parts, you'll find that more players actually enjoy being in end-game and doing those things because their power is challenged by the game. Not just new enemies, but new mission types, better rewards, growing the game and expanding on end-game content.

 

Everyone who's reached the "end-game" realizes it's all the same thing. Only difference is that we make our tools stronger to make the farming go by faster. When we take those tools back to the Star Map, they're still built for end-game, they're still built for speeding up the Grind and farming. We're not going to tone it down, be they guns or powers, because we want the farm and the grind to go by faster so we get our rewards faster, if RNGsus is kind.

 

To sum it all up, the problem isn't that we're too powerful, the problem is that we have no where to use this power and we keep having to go back to lower tier content because that's the only place that we can farm the resources/credits/parts we need to build the next mastery fodder item. You give players a place that is new, that is dynamic, that isn't just the same old thing reskinned, and you'll see them enjoy the game and play that high content knowing there is a reward, that this is why they built up all this power.

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@Azawarau

 

I can consider that playing that way was never their intent.. it is a reality of how the game currently is.  I think that it is also up to us as their consumers and community to provide feedback that can be used to resolve the issues.

 

With this in mind, what solutions do you believe would work best or how would you alter the proposed steps listed in the OP so that it better addresses the problems?

 

 

@AlphaHorseman

 

Is it wrong for us to have end-tier builds? No, it isn't. Is it wrong for us to use these on lower level nodes? No, it still isn't, because we built things that way. It's wrong when we're being forced to go to those nodes because we have to farm for a certain resource, or re-level a weapon/frame, or do whatever mediocre task there is to do. We bring those builds into lower tier content because we have to farm things, be it resources or credits or mods. We bring that gun, or that frame, because they represent a fast and efficient way to get what we want.

 

Outside of the void, there's literally nothing to do that isn't differed from the beginning of the game until the end of it. And even the end-tier of the void pulls in enemies from the already existing content, to do the mission types that have been copied from the already existing content. We're bored because we do the same thing and fight the same enemies, the only difference is the HP/Armor/Shields and how much damage they can dish out. If you give people better content that is differentiated from the already existing content, if you give them a reason to use those builds, a reason to challenge the integrity of those builds, rewards for going to those places outside of just prime parts, you'll find that more players actually enjoy being in end-game and doing those things because their power is challenged by the game. Not just new enemies, but new mission types, better rewards, growing the game and expanding on end-game content.

 

I like your ideas for improvement here :

 

-  Give players unique missions to run in missions then the same mission types for every planet

 

-  Give us unique enemies for the Void instead of buffed regular enemies from the normal game missions

 

 

Those would actually really help reduce how often we ability spam or at the very least which frames we use and which abilities we are relying on to beat them.

 

My beef with Nullifiers is that NO abilities work to beat them.. not even 1, 2 or 3rd abilities.. they simply reject the use of warframe abilities which is what makes warframe unique.  I want to see creative enemies that make us think about how and when we use our abilities.. not ones that stop us from using abilities.

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To the first half, you have options, and you can use those options. Failure to utilize those options are your own fault. It doesn't mean the entirety of the game needs to be changed for you not utilizing your options.

 

You realize that those skills have been built with end-game levels of damage? If you build for end-tier content, you're going to destroy anything that isn't end-tier. My bow can hit 40k, it trivializes anything that doesn't say T4 Bombard written across the forehead, and even the ones that do have it written across the forehead, I just aim for the head and they die, all the same. The jist of it is that anything that is built for end-tier is going to destroy anything that isn't end-tier with a click of a button. Be that button a number key or a mouse.

 

Is it wrong for us to have end-tier builds? No, it isn't. Is it wrong for us to use these on lower level nodes? No, it still isn't, because we built things that way. It's wrong when we're being forced to go to those nodes because we have to farm for a certain resource, or re-level a weapon/frame, or do whatever mediocre task there is to do. We bring those builds into lower tier content because we have to farm things, be it resources or credits or mods. We bring that gun, or that frame, because they represent a fast and efficient way to get what we want.

 

Outside of the void, there's literally nothing to do that isn't differed from the beginning of the game until the end of it. And even the end-tier of the void pulls in enemies from the already existing content, to do the mission types that have been copied from the already existing content. We're bored because we do the same thing and fight the same enemies, the only difference is the HP/Armor/Shields and how much damage they can dish out. If you give people better content that is differentiated from the already existing content, if you give them a reason to use those builds, a reason to challenge the integrity of those builds, rewards for going to those places outside of just prime parts, you'll find that more players actually enjoy being in end-game and doing those things because their power is challenged by the game. Not just new enemies, but new mission types, better rewards, growing the game and expanding on end-game content.

 

Everyone who's reached the "end-game" realizes it's all the same thing. Only difference is that we make our tools stronger to make the farming go by faster. When we take those tools back to the Star Map, they're still built for end-game, they're still built for speeding up the Grind and farming. We're not going to tone it down, be they guns or powers, because we want the farm and the grind to go by faster so we get our rewards faster, if RNGsus is kind.

 

To sum it all up, the problem isn't that we're too powerful, the problem is that we have no where to use this power and we keep having to go back to lower tier content because that's the only place that we can farm the resources/credits/parts we need to build the next mastery fodder item. You give players a place that is new, that is dynamic, that isn't just the same old thing reskinned, and you'll see them enjoy the game and play that high content knowing there is a reward, that this is why they built up all this power.

Except most dont build for and content

 

They settle for the middle so they can take advantage of bad EXP scaling

 

The ones that do take it to the end force you to sit and do nothing until they cant kill anymore because no gun you have can keep up with theit power and unless youre doing the same you wont be doing much of anything, which eliminates the point of playing

 

The issue isnt having end tier builds and you know it. The issue is powers end tier or not trivialize content. Iron skin was the greatest example of this with how long it allowed players to breeze through the star chart effortlessly

 

Its not about whats end game, Its about whats fair for everyone

 

Your entire argument is lopsided in youre favor

 

When youre being forced you dont like it but when youre forcing onto someone its not force.  Your reasoning for this is terrible and hypocritical as well

 

Im forced to not play in pubs or forced to deal with abusive game design. The game should be desinged in a way that this shouldnt happen to this degree. Currently powers are the most outstanding offenders of forcing gameplay, or in this case lack of, onto others

 

The problem isnt the enemies. Its a mix of power creep and trivializing powers along with bad EXP scaling and lazy players unwilling to actually build for what they have. Theyd rather take a cheat and defend it as fair. If it were fair itd be in a range with other things but better.. At teh moment its far beyond comparison to anything else and for that it needs to be toned down

 

Mid or end game its all the same

 

The problem will always be that were too powerful and because of that the band aid was to simply negate that power as best they coulkd

 

Which by the way happens to hurt frames who werent even in the slightest the cause of the problem more than the frames that the issue came from

@Azawarau

 

I can consider that playing that way was never their intent.. it is a reality of how the game currently is.  I think that it is also up to us as their consumers and community to provide feedback that can be used to resolve the issues.

 

With this in mind, what solutions do you believe would work best or how would you alter the proposed steps listed in the OP so that it better addresses the problems?

The solution is simple

 

DE needs to slow down on the new content and fix the lingering issues before they dig buigger holes and make bigger messes to fix

 

Enemies need to be toned down in damage and armor scaling and player powers need to be toned down to suit the chnge so we arent at the point where were absolutely dependent on powers

 

Also various guns should be brought tin line and proper progression needs to be made

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/361202-can-we-get-a-petition-going-to-get-de-to-sit-down-and-relook-every-weapon-in-game/

 

I made a thread on this topic but have never been hopeful on DE paying it any mind

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Yeah that's a step towards the solution as well, the enemies on top of not really being dynamic in type.. also by the way they scale in difficulty .. this forces our hands to resort to one approach to stay alive.

 

We find the biggest hiding spot we can and then kill them from out of sight.

 

It would be nice to start losing in missions because the enemies were more skilled than the player, instead of we just can't damage them any more or they are 1 shotting us.  That results in what we have now.. ability spam.

 

I'll update the OP with those factors as well when I get time to do so... for now I'll try to dot-point them below :

 

 

-  Need to consider better ways of increasing enemy difficulty than by buffs or giving them the power to remove ALL warframe abilities.

 

-  Need to consider better game modes that can be introduced to increase variety in game play for Endless game modes.  These new modes would be designed so ability spamming won't be the only way to secure a victory.  If combined with the first point.. this could make for some cool ideas.

 

-  Idea for PvP upgrades could hold some answers to new content that reduces Ability Spam activities by taking Rep from regular missions into PvP only contexts.  Need a solution for players who lack connectivity to handle PvP.  Syndicate Missions could be that solution along with the medallions.  So long as Rep is not tied to XP in normal missions this should put an end to Macro Farmers there.

 

-  Re-Introduce Line of Sight on all abilities but allow them to deal reduced damage to targets hiding behind cover and walls etc.  (this wouldn't have been a big issue if players were not getting majority of rewards from mass killing (aka XP) and were instead getting the biggest reward per mission from successfully extracting.)

 

This would only work in the situation where XP in regular missions no longer contributes to Rep.  We can't have grinding for XP as the driving force of PvE.. let's keep that for PvP where the enemies can be just as smart as the player because they are also players.  The driving goals of PvE should be challenging missions with rewarding extractions.

 

 

As to where in the process each of these fit is something that still needs to be considered as well as the question of .. will these be enough of an improvement on the base concept to achieve success?

 

 

Removal of differences in Damage Per Second on damage abilities of various tiers so all first abilities that deal damage without utility would have identical values that they inflict every second.. May not mean they do the same damage per hit but can all deal the same damage per second.  This also needs to be applied to weapons so all weapons in the game deal identical damage per second.

 

Different damages per shot maybe and even different mechanics for how they work and deliver that damage.. Also different effectiveness on specific enemies based on build etc.. but at the end of the day we shouldn't be left with the braton having a weaker DPS (damage per second) than a Marelok pistol.  By doing this, it will likely further enable players freedom of choice in how they play the game.  It will also reduce how many weapons are wasted as Mastery Fodder and it will encourage both variety and warframes and load-outs as well as encourage players to use their guns and other weapons instead of just using Ability Spam to rank up crappy gear for mastery fodder.

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Except most dont build for and content

 

They settle for the middle so they can take advantage of bad EXP scaling

 

The ones that do take it to the end force you to sit and do nothing until they cant kill anymore because no gun you have can keep up with theit power and unless youre doing the same you wont be doing much of anything, which eliminates the point of playing

 

The issue isnt having end tier builds and you know it. The issue is powers end tier or not trivialize content. Iron skin was the greatest example of this with how long it allowed players to breeze through the star chart effortlessly

 

Its not about whats end game, Its about whats fair for everyone

 

Your entire argument is lopsided in youre favor

 

When youre being forced you dont like it but when youre forcing onto someone its not force.  Your reasoning for this is terrible and hypocritical as well

 

Im forced to not play in pubs or forced to deal with abusive game design. The game should be desinged in a way that this shouldnt happen to this degree. Currently powers are the most outstanding offenders of forcing gameplay, or in this case lack of, onto others

 

The problem isnt the enemies. Its a mix of power creep and trivializing powers along with bad EXP scaling and lazy players unwilling to actually build for what they have. Theyd rather take a cheat and defend it as fair. If it were fair itd be in a range with other things but better.. At teh moment its far beyond comparison to anything else and for that it needs to be toned down

 

Mid or end game its all the same

 

The problem will always be that were too powerful and because of that the band aid was to simply negate that power as best they coulkd

 

Which by the way happens to hurt frames who werent even in the slightest the cause of the problem more than the frames that the issue came from

The solution is simple

 

DE needs to slow down on the new content and fix the lingering issues before they dig buigger holes and make bigger messes to fix

 

Enemies need to be toned down in damage and armor scaling and player powers need to be toned down to suit the chnge so we arent at the point where were absolutely dependent on powers

 

Also various guns should be brought tin line and proper progression needs to be made

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/361202-can-we-get-a-petition-going-to-get-de-to-sit-down-and-relook-every-weapon-in-game/

 

I made a thread on this topic but have never been hopeful on DE paying it any mind

You're telling me that people don't build for end-tier? You realize how backwards that is?! EVERY SINGLE EXAMPLE YOU GAVE IS OF A POWER BUILT FOR END-TIER! LITERALLY ALL OF IT! EVERY SINGLE BLOOMING EXAMPLE was of an end-tier power!

 

"They settle for the middle". Who settles half-way through game progression and just stops!? What madness is this!? People who have maxed out builds are going to go for the best way to get EXP IF, AND ONLY IF THAT'S the thing they're farming for. You see the people going on mass farms for resources and do it the fastest way possible ON THE SAME NODES as everyone else is on! WE'RE GOING TO THOSE STUPID NODES BECAUSE we have the annoyance of having to level something again! Or farming something again! It's going on OVER AND OVER! THAT'S WHY PEOPLE USE END-TIER BUILDS on those maps! BECAUSE THEY MAKE IT TO THE REWARD FASTER! POWERS OR GUNS!

 

I'M SORRY, BUT MY PARIS PRIME DOESN'T HEAR YOUR LUDICROUS COMMENT OVER THE 40K DAMAGE I JUST SHOT A T4 BOMBARD IN THE HEAD WITH! WITHOUT A RED CRIT! Guns can't keep pace with powers? Oh please, that was a horrid excuse. Literally, how many times do I have to use this example for you to get it through your head? Single target DPS, guns OUTRIGHT trump powers. No power in this game can hit a target for 40k damage. AoE powers total damage output are dependent on how many targets you hit. You can hit a target for 3k with one, sure, but if you just hit THAT ONE TARGET for 3k, that's a pretty uselessly wasted AoE nuke. If you hit 14 targets, VOILA, only THEN did you just match my Paris Prime in damage output. AoE nukes are good for area of effect, but if you really wanna make sure that enemy you're looking at goes down, raise that gun and smile like a madman as you squeeze the trigger.

 

THE ENTIRE ISSUE stems from the fact that players who have all this power built this for end-game, and then use these builds, on guns or powers, on content that isn't end-game. Is that wrong of them? No, not simply because they shouldn't be forced to change their builds to suit a planet, but because the reason they're doing it like that is to get the rewards faster. Not only that, but speeding up the grind is the underlying reason why we all build these powerful weapons and WarFrames. It isn't explicit for some, but when you look at it all in the big picture, you realize it's pretty much "Grind the game to get weapons and WarFrames that help you grind the game faster".

 

I just gave my side of the argument! OF COURSE I'm going to give points to support my position! THAT'S THE ENTIRE POINT OF ME GIVING MY SIDE OF THE STORY! It isn't lopsided in any sense, that's literally my opinion on the topic and my proposed solution. The only way it's lopsided is because I GAVE MY ACCOUNT on the issue, it is my perspective, it is my opinion, and if you don't like it, too blooming Vay Hek bad.

 

I'm not forcing ANYTHING onto ANYONE! My entire stance on the topics I've gone back and forth on you on have my premise being GO PLAY THE GAME AS YOU WANT TO PLAY IT! HAVE FUN! DON'T RUIN OTHER PEOPLES FUN JUST BECAUSE THEY PLAY DIFFERENTLY FROM YOU! That's my side of the story! In this discussion, it's about creating a solution to the fact that we've built up all this power, but have no real foes to use it on outside of Endless. Even then, those foes are cheap because all they do is add HP/Armor/Shields and do some heavier damage. That isn't even real end-game, it's rehashing the assets that are in regular content and giving them a pretty gold trim. Even the Nullifiers are still a point of contention, as now some are talking about improving them, since most of us have moved past the fact that they're here to stay.

 

Players unwilling to build for what they have? WHAT are you talking about? Honestly, this doesn't make any sense. Toned down? I'm sorry, you want to talk to my Paris Prime on how foolish that is? I just gave you why powers AoE powers are good, and why guns are good. That prissy little statement you just put literally made no sense.

 

What are you talking about negating that power? Nullifiers? At the moment they're a hard limiting factor to the "Homers Drinking Bird" thing, and that isn't a bad thing. They're a start, but we just have to keep rolling on and improve them, and improve enemy mechanics to make them more interesting to fight other than just being bullet sponges.

 

WE ALL got a surprise when the Nullifiers first came out. I'm still pissed my Paris Prime doesn't crit on the shield. It still limits my snipers like that when it is supposed to be a shield that stops powers. Honestly, it makes sense for these things to block exclusively powers, that way I can still use my guns and eliminate these enemies.

 

Honestly it's like you're arguing for the sake of arguing. Don't be that guy. IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH the AoE nukes, PLEASE STATE THEM IN YOUR RESPONSE TO THIS! SO I CAN TELL YOU OFF ON WHY THEY DO WHAT THEY DO! EXPLICITLY, tell me WHAT POWERS you have an issue with. WHY you think their damage output sets them apart from guns.

 

If the sole premise of your argument is "because they kill everything in range", remember to take into account the map a player is on, and the gear he has customized. IF YOU NOTICE that the gear is higher leveled than the content, that the mods are maxed, or higher damage output than that planet/node, then you already have your answer on why these guns and powers can kill anything on that map.

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You misunderstood

 

Most dont build that build for end tier. They build it to abuse the star chart maps

 

In end tier they use that if they want to trivialize the first 20-40 minutes or so and leave

 

The people that settle for the middle are the ones who are just farming up weapons for exp

 

Youre 40k damage was wasted ona  single target where my saryn just cleared a room. Try again

 

Nono, Im not forcing anything onto anyone. you just keep making it seem that way because youre too biased to do anything but make it as personal as possible and paint the other side as the villain because you dont have a reasonable argument

 

"Prissy little statement" Well thats about all i expected out of you. Youre wrong on guns comparing to powers. It doesnt matter if i prove you wrong, youll just stay saying the same things repeatedly when youre really just full of it

 

The only thing youre telling is how biased you are. Honestly saying guns compare to powers is ridiculous. Its not ven your own argument, you borrowed the idea from another person and dont know how to defend it so you just play on repeat. Youd better hope backup comes soon or this is going to keep droning on the same way it is now

 

Youre wrong and unless brick walls can learn to comprehend simple though process your mind wont change any time soon

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How about you don't b*tch out. I'm an ash that can spam abilities but I purposely remove an energy siphon to make it more fun for me.
Put changes on yourself, not slapping a whole load of your whines on other people.

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How about you don't b*tch out. I'm an ash that can spam abilities but I purposely remove an energy siphon to make it more fun for me.

Put changes on yourself, not slapping a whole load of your whines on other people.

First off its not *@##$ing out

 

What you just did there is *@##$ing out

 

Second your entire argument is that we should gimp ourselves for challenging and engaging gameplay thats fair for all players and all playstyles which is more than wrong enough that i shouldnt have to explain it to you

 

Third youre completely ignoring that this playstyle  is so effective that it effectively negates most others, which is where the fun argument becomes ironic and hypocritical

 

Fourth you hinged your argument entirely on what you consider fun and as always under the assumption that you wont have fun if this one thing is changed

 

Swiss cheese

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You misunderstood

 

Most dont build that build for end tier. They build it to abuse the star chart maps

 

In end tier they use that if they want to trivialize the first 20-40 minutes or so and leave

 

The people that settle for the middle are the ones who are just farming up weapons for exp

 

Youre 40k damage was wasted ona  single target where my saryn just cleared a room. Try again

 

Nono, Im not forcing anything onto anyone. you just keep making it seem that way because youre too biased to do anything but make it as personal as possible and paint the other side as the villain because you dont have a reasonable argument

 

"Prissy little statement" Well thats about all i expected out of you. Youre wrong on guns comparing to powers. It doesnt matter if i prove you wrong, youll just stay saying the same things repeatedly when youre really just full of it

 

The only thing youre telling is how biased you are. Honestly saying guns compare to powers is ridiculous. Its not ven your own argument, you borrowed the idea from another person and dont know how to defend it so you just play on repeat. Youd better hope backup comes soon or this is going to keep droning on the same way it is now

 

Youre wrong and unless brick walls can learn to comprehend simple though process your mind wont change any time soon

 

 

What are you talking about? Who builds it to abuse the star chart? With what builds? What portion of the community? Where is your proof? Oh lemme guess, its the p42w players? Is that the ones?

 

What map were you and your Saryn on? Huh? Oh lemme guess, you used it on a map that had enemies that had lower HP than your damage output BECAUSE you had the mods leveled high enough to clear it. Is that so? Well isn't that hypocritical? I LOVE having my bow being able to do that. THAT'S WHY I built it to do that. Is it wrong? No, because I'm utilizing the tools DE has given me to the fullest potential for it to fit my needs.

 

Oh I have a very reasonable argument. Apparently you can't seem to realize it and are just back peddling.

 

I SHOWED YOU and wrote so many times on how guns and powers are BOTH good. Guns outright rule in single target DPS, hence why they're guns. If an AoE skill hits enough targets, ONLY THEN is it going to match guns for damage output, and that's in TOTAL damage output, not single target DPS, hence why they're AoE skills.

 

If the only thing you can comprehend is "Biased", that's pretty hypocritical of you. I gave you examples, I gave you reasons why we do this, I gave you literally every response and responded to each of your posts. Oh I don't need backup, I'm going to enjoy debunking and giving you reasons for whatever statement you've got.

 

Brick wall? Oh really? Coming from the guy who keeps calling me a hypocrite and biased, yeah, that's a laugh.

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