Remove Serration And Other Base Damage Mods From The Game And Replace It With A Damage Boost Based On Weapon Level

[Pandoran_Stallion 2,262]

I do. I want that "quality" they spoke of, and this would be one of those overlapping fixes that imo is for the better.

The point of the concept is even if it's replaced by another required mod, the weapon types would still be brought in line and it opens up more build options, which is what I'm aiming for. If our current weapon DPS is good or even great by the game's standards, I'm hoping some players will try and create more niche builds, and if not, they can now scale into higher level content. To some players it's a matter of the 'lesser of two evils', but I honestly just want that mod to be gone. I'm sick of watching new players struggle with their builds and weaponry and having to put that mod on every singe one of my weapons if I want it to be effective.

Edited January 13, 2015 by UpgradeInProgress

[Master_Marmot_Prime 162]

   The fact of the matter is it's considered too powerful because its benefits outweigh everything else. Serration is barely enough to get some weapons halfway through the starchart. To that end it's not powerful enough, but it's required if you want to get anywhere with a weapon. This is just a way to level the playing field between weapon types.

 

   As for trading, there are plenty of other mods to go and sell, trust me. Vitality and Redirection are the first to come to mind, although corrupted mods are excellent as well. Losing 2 mods (3 if you count primed point blank) within the trading chat won't be a major issue, people will buy and sell other things. I don't think DE will see a difference in revenue.

 

I sometimes see MR0 players with Boltor Primes and the starter frames. You think they farmed the Boltor Prime? You think they don't use Serration? As for trading, trust me, Corrupted and Damage related mods are the most sought after. Not Vit and Red. What's next then after removing Serration? (Primed) Point Blank, Heavy Cal, Hornet Strike, all the the other mods that do +%damage?

 

How is your fix a balance when you want to make weapons more powerful? Nothing will change.

[Pandoran_Stallion 2,262]

I sometimes see MR0 players with Boltor Primes and the starter frames. You think they farmed the Boltor Prime? You think they don't use Serration? As for trading, trust me, Corrupted and Damage related mods are the most sought after. Not Vit and Red. What's next then after removing Serration? (Primed) Point Blank, Heavy Cal, Hornet Strike, all the the other mods that do +%damage?

 

How is your fix a balance when you want to make weapons more powerful? Nothing will change.

And how is the boltor prime relevant in any way to this discussion? This is about a mod, not any single weapon. Heavy cal should and would not be removed (I'll add that to the OP). These are only mods that are dedicated purely to base damage. That means Primed Point Blank, Point Strike, Point Blank, Serration, and Hornet Strike would die a well-deserved death.

[Tyrian3k 4,549]

I sometimes see MR0 players with Boltor Primes and the starter frames. You think they farmed the Boltor Prime? You think they don't use Serration? As for trading, trust me, Corrupted and Damage related mods are the most sought after. Not Vit and Red. What's next then after removing Serration? (Primed) Point Blank, Heavy Cal, Hornet Strike, all the the other mods that do +%damage?

 

How is your fix a balance when you want to make weapons more powerful? Nothing will change.

 

The intention is to remove a mod that shouldn't exist in the first place since it adds 0 customization.

Heavy Caliber doesn't necessarily need to be removed since it's a trade-off, but the downside should be significant on every single weapon (yes, including Boltor Prime).

Blaze for example should be a mod that needs to go, though.

[Pandoran_Stallion 2,262]

The intention is to remove a mod that shouldn't exist in the first place since it adds 0 customization.

Heavy Caliber doesn't necessarily need to be removed since it's a trade-off, but the downside should be significant on every single weapon (yes, including Boltor Prime).

Blaze for example should be a mod that needs to go, though.

I wouldn't remove blaze because it carries fire damage along with it, and that means it'll ruin some builds :) It's also a nightmare mod, so I think it's justified to keep it. Shotguns need the advantage anyway.

[AureusVulpes 1,125]

And how is the boltor prime relevant in any way to this discussion? This is about a mod, not any single weapon. Heavy cal should and would not be removed (I'll add that to the OP). These are only mods that are dedicated purely to base damage. That means Primed Point Blank, Point Strike, Point Blank, Serration, and Hornet Strike would die a well-deserved death.

 

Primed Point blank should stay, but be changed to reflect the damage changes in line with the standard point blank mod.

 

For example: Point Blank is +90% damage. PPB is +165%. If PB's value is retained in passive levelup damage, PPB should remain as +75% damage. The only reason this should stay is because it already exists, and many people have sunk cores (even legendaries!) and ducats into it (myself not included) to improve their build. It would be similar to heavy cal but stay legendary and 10-rank. should balance out for the power gain if people really want it.

[Master_Marmot_Prime 162]

And how is the boltor prime relevant in any way to this discussion? This is about a mod, not any single weapon. Heavy cal should and would not be removed (I'll add that to the OP). These are only mods that are dedicated purely to base damage. That means Primed Point Blank, Point Strike, Point Blank, Serration, and Hornet Strike would die a well-deserved death.

 

It is relevant because it has the most DPS under the rifles with Soma Prime. This is achieved with Serration. Serration you want to fix by removing it. Serration is the most important mod for weapon damage. Alot of players want the most damage. This is tied with the Boltor Prime. By removing Serration you remove a possible income source. Tell me how many people you see using the Boltor Prime? I'll bet all my Plat they are using it with Serration.

 

And your last sentence, a well-deserved death? Looks like you're just fed up with grinding for cores to max out some damage mods and are looking for an easy solution. Simply by removing all damage mods.

[Tyrian3k 4,549]

I wouldn't remove blaze because it carries fire damage along with it, and that means it'll ruin some builds :) It's also a nightmare mod, so I think it's justified to keep it. Shotguns need the advantage anyway.

 

What builds would it ruin exactly? Just like Serration etc, Blaze is a mod that is on just about every shotgun-build in existence.

[Tyrian3k 4,549]

Primed Point blank should stay, but be changed to reflect the damage changes in line with the standard point blank mod.

 

For example: Point Blank is +90% damage. PPB is +165%. If PB's value is retained in passive levelup damage, PPB should remain as +75% damage. The only reason this should stay is because it already exists, and many people have sunk cores (even legendaries!) and ducats into it (myself not included) to improve their build. It would be similar to heavy cal but stay legendary and 10-rank. should balance out for the power gain if people really want it.

 

I can't really comprehend the reasoning behind this. Give everyone the credits and ducats for the purchase back, slap a legendary core on top and everything is dealt with.

[AureusVulpes 1,125]

 

I can't really comprehend the reasoning behind this. Give everyone the credits and ducats for the purchase back, slap a legendary core on top and everything is dealt with.

 

Because it's an option, not a requirement.

 

EDIT: It is also now taking up a slot of its own instead of replacing an established mod.

Edited January 13, 2015 by AureusVulpes

[Pandoran_Stallion 2,262]

What builds would it ruin exactly? Just like Serration etc, Blaze is a mod that is on just about every shotgun-build in existence.

Say, you're fighting Corpus... 

[Centias 987]

I'm glad to hear the base damage mods are probably going away, but I really don't care for the idea of it being tied to weapon level. Just bump weapons up to their current maximum damage with Serration/Hornet Strike/Primed Point Blank (and Blaze)/Pressure Point and compensate players for taking those mods away with credits and fusion cores proportionate to what level the mods were at. Leaving the damage tied to weapon level keeps leveling/re-leveling weapons painful as the weapon is essentially useless for the first 10-15 levels, when it could just be time for you to mess with new mod combinations to find out what works well for that weapon.

[Tyrian3k 4,549]

Say, you're fighting Corpus... 

 

Fire damage deals 100% damage against every Corpus, only excluiding proto shields which only Techs, Snipers, Capture targets, bosses and Wardens use. Not something you come across too often. Conclusion: Even against Corpus, this mod is easily among the ones you never want to take off.

[Jahadaya 4,971]

It is relevant because it has the most DPS under the rifles with Soma Prime. This is achieved with Serration. Serration you want to fix by removing it. Serration is the most important mod for weapon damage. Alot of players want the most damage. This is tied with the Boltor Prime. By removing Serration you remove a possible income source. Tell me how many people you see using the Boltor Prime? I'll bet all my Plat they are using it with Serration.

 

And your last sentence, a well-deserved death? Looks like you're just fed up with grinding for cores to max out some damage mods and are looking for an easy solution. Simply by removing all damage mods.

Did you even read the OP? He's not saying remove base damage mods and give weapons no sort of damage buffs so that they can no longer kill any enemies; he's saying that base damage mods should simply be integrated into the weapons like Warframe abilities were. I don't see how that translate into being "fed up of grinding" - he most likely has the mods maxed out himself. 

[Pandoran_Stallion 2,262]

It is relevant because it has the most DPS under the rifles with Soma Prime. This is achieved with Serration. Serration you want to fix by removing it. Serration is the most important mod for weapon damage. Alot of players want the most damage. This is tied with the Boltor Prime. By removing Serration you remove a possible income source. Tell me how many people you see using the Boltor Prime? I'll bet all my Plat they are using it with Serration.

 

And your last sentence, a well-deserved death? Looks like you're just fed up with grinding for cores to max out some damage mods and are looking for an easy solution. Simply by removing all damage mods.

   Serration isn't relevant as an income source. Players will move on to other mods and other items, I guarantee you. If they're going after damage, they have other things they'd need to buy.

 

   As for a well-deserved death, I just want to see base damage mods go. I'm tired of putting them in my builds. I want to do something fun with my weapons but I can't do it because it'd be useless without a serration. I have all my mods maxed, so thank you for making assumptions and using ad hominem.

 

   I've been around since early U9, so personally this isn't really a huge issue for me, but it's as much a matter of weapon balance and build variety as it is shifting the grind for new players from things they want rather than need.

[Master_Marmot_Prime 162]

   Serration isn't relevant as an income source. Players will move on to other mods and other items, I guarantee you. If they're going after damage, they have other things they'd need to buy.

 

   As for a well-deserved death, I just want to see base damage mods go. I'm tired of putting them in my builds. I want to do something fun with my weapons but I can't do it because it'd be useless without a serration. I have all my mods maxed, so thank you for making assumptions and using ad hominem.

 

   I've been around since early U9, so personally this isn't really a huge issue for me, but it's as much a matter of weapon balance and build variety as it is shifting the grind for new players from things they want rather than need.

 

Serration is relevant now as an income source. When you remove it, it will not be anymore, of course players will move on to other mods.

 

You are most welcome for that comment :) It only becomes useless after a certain level. To me elements are more important, fire rate of a weapon is also important.

 

Please explain to me how your fix is a balance, because I really cannot see how making everything more powerful is a balance. Since you are from U9, don't really see the point of you saying that as I can see your join date, how can you know what new players want? Isn't that an assumption?

[OniDax 13,253]

To make this worth it, max level would need to have a damage boost equal to having a max serration equipped...

[Pandoran_Stallion 2,262]

To make this worth it, max level would need to have a damage boost equal to having a max serration equipped...

It's 20% per 3 levels for a +200% at Rank 30, as stated in the OP. This applies to all weapon types.

Edited January 13, 2015 by UpgradeInProgress

[OniDax 13,253]

It's 20% per 3 levels for a +200% at Rank 30, as stated in the OP. This applies to all weapon types.

 

Just reiterating that point. Seeing how much backlash there is to anything being powerful in this game, I couldn't see this happening at all. I could see DE removing serration altogether and making it less than half as strong as if it had a max serration on it. But, personally, I want weapons to be strong. I'm of the opinion that max level Tenno should be like gods to the Grineer and Corpus, and that's without strong weapons. I'd rather most enemies be like cannon fodder to Tenno, even at the highest difficulty levels, with special enemy types that are a match for Tenno (and I'd rather these special enemies have some Void-related specialty that makes them on par with the Tenno).

[Pandoran_Stallion 2,262]

Serration is relevant now as an income source. When you remove it, it will not be anymore, of course players will move on to other mods.

 

You are most welcome for that comment :) It only becomes useless after a certain level. To me elements are more important, fire rate of a weapon is also important.

 

Please explain to me how your fix is a balance, because I really cannot see how making everything more powerful is a balance. Since you are from U9, don't really see the point of you saying that as I can see your join date, how can you know what new players want? Isn't that an assumption?

The fact that players will move on kinda makes that argument against removal a moot point. :)

 

As for balance, I'm calling it balancing because it applies to ALL weapons. This means that it levels the playing field between weapon types more than anything. It also makes it easier to nerf and buff a weapon to reasonable levels, while being able to see where it will stand against other weapons. Yes, it will make weapons more powerful. But when you look at it, you're nerfing the all-powerful secondary, buffing the relatively weak primary classes by a relatively small 35%, and making melee viable by adding 80% more damage. I'm not saying it balances OP weaponry. I'm saying this balances weapon classes.

 

I said I was form U9 just to show that cores/creds/resources aren't a huge issue. My clan takes in a lot of new players and I help new players often, usually anywhere from a few runs to a couple weeks. I have the urge to help them but of course they want to progress on their own, and I just don't like seeing that progression bottlenecked by farming for fusion cores and creds. It may be a bit of an assumption on my part since I don't know every new player, but from what I've seen they always struggle with mods, especially high-rank damage mods like Serration.

Edited January 13, 2015 by UpgradeInProgress

[Master_Marmot_Prime 162]

The fact that players will move on kinda makes that argument against removal a moot point. :)

 

As for balance, I'm calling it balancing because it applies to ALL weapons. This means that it levels the playing field between weapon types more than anything. It also makes it easier to nerf and buff a weapon to reasonable levels, while being able to see where it will stand against other weapons. Yes, it will make weapons more powerful. But when you look at it, you're nerfing the all-powerful secondary, buffing the relatively weak primary classes by a relatively small 35%, and making melee viable by adding 80% more damage. I'm not saying it balances OP weaponry. I'm saying this balances weapon classes.

 

I said I was form U9 just to show that cores/creds/resources aren't a huge issue. My clan takes in a lot of new players and I help new players often, usually anywhere from a few runs to a couple weeks. I have the urge to help them but of course they want to progress on their own, and I just don't like seeing that progression bottlenecked by farming for fusion cores and creds. It may be a bit of an assumption on my part since I don't know every new player, but from what I've seen they always struggle with mods, especially high-rank damage mods like Serration.

 

Because they have no other choice but to move onto other mods.

 

Cores, mods and ranking up rare mods will always be a "problem". Not just for new beginners, also veteran players. I still haven't maxed out the new Primed mods. This will always be an issue with new content.

 

What if Serration gets removed? What will be next, people will be demanding this and that to be removed. I rather have them fix the bugs like they have planned. Maybe change the rewards after a succesful mission, where one can choose between a couple of things like a rare mod or a couple of cores.

[CY13ERPUNK 6,261]

OP is suggesting too much (ie OP is just suggesting another 'make me more powerful' fantasy bs)

 

the idea is fine, but OP is not understanding balance and the need for tradeoffs

 

all weapons should gain +5% dmg per rank, totalling +150% at rank 30, this is a fair advancement and not stupid OP

 

yes this would affect primaries/sidearms/melee differently, but there are plenty of other elemental/physical dmg mods that could be adjusted and accomodate the removal of the core base dmg mods

 

additionally more conditional base dmg mods like hvy cal could be introduced

[Pandoran_Stallion 2,262]

What if Serration gets removed? What will be next, people will be demanding this and that to be removed. I rather have them fix the bugs like they have planned. Maybe change the rewards after a succesful mission, where one can choose between a couple of things like a rare mod or a couple of cores.

There's no point to removing every mod in the game, what's the fun in that? Even warframe mods give build variety, including non-primed mods (with the exception of streamline, but I wouldn't remove that). Weapon builds are almost always the same if you want them to maximize DPS, though. Regarding bugfixes, they said Quality of game and removal of grind>Bugfixes and rebalancing>New Content. Obviously they're all high in priority but I'm just saying that bugfixes aren't their #1 focus this year. New content will always be buggy. New content brings grind. I accept that. But unless they have some new mod that adds 500% damage to some stat, I don't need it, and that's the real issue. Players, without a doubt, need Serration and other damage mods to progress even within the star chart, and that's what this attempts to fix.

[Pandoran_Stallion 2,262]

OP is suggesting too much (ie OP is just suggesting another 'make me more powerful' fantasy bs)

 

the idea is fine, but OP is not understanding balance and the need for tradeoffs

 

all weapons should gain +5% dmg per rank, totalling +150% at rank 30, this is a fair advancement and not stupid OP

 

yes this would affect primaries/sidearms/melee differently, but there are plenty of other elemental/physical dmg mods that could be adjusted and accomodate the removal of the core base dmg mods

 

additionally more conditional base dmg mods like hvy cal could be introduced

 The numbers are hypothetical. I'm a little OCD about my numbers and for the sake of ease of use, I put that +200%. With tradeoffs, I understand perfectly well what they are and what they entail, but damage is a requirement, period. Also, 'more powerful fantasy bs'? I'm powerful enough as a player as is, and if you didn't realize I'm actually NERFING the most powerful weapon class in the game. You're talking about nerfing ALL weapons except melee, period, and that's sadly not what I'm aiming for since primaries are weak enough in comparison as they are. Maybe 180% would be more ideal.

 

The idea is to minimize adjustment, so in essence this is about implementation of the system, not the numbers themselves. I can't agree with more conditional damage mods, either. It adds to the already huge pool of required mods in builds, and the grind would be ridiculous. 

[Edgedemon 1,055]

The intention is to remove a mod that shouldn't exist in the first place since it adds 0 customization.

Heavy Caliber doesn't necessarily need to be removed since it's a trade-off, but the downside should be significant on every single weapon (yes, including Boltor Prime).

Blaze for example should be a mod that needs to go, though.

told you he would remove elemental too