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Remove Serration And Other Base Damage Mods From The Game And Replace It With A Damage Boost Based On Weapon Level


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There's no point to removing every mod in the game, what's the fun in that? Even warframe mods give build variety, including non-primed mods (with the exception of streamline, but I wouldn't remove that). Weapon builds are almost always the same if you want them to maximize DPS, though. Regarding bugfixes, they said Quality of game and removal of grind>Bugfixes and rebalancing>New Content. Obviously they're all high in priority but I'm just saying that bugfixes aren't their #1 focus this year. New content will always be buggy. New content brings grind. I accept that. But unless they have some new mod that adds 500% damage to some stat, I don't need it, and that's the real issue. Players, without a doubt, need Serration and other damage mods to progress even within the star chart, and that's what this attempts to fix.

 

that is completely oblivious of weapon characteristics like RoF, Critical Chance,Critical Multiplier, Status Chance, original Damage Types AND ENEMY WEAKNESS, not to mention you can't "maximize"  in different ways unless you can get that theoretical maximum with only a few mods and then choose what else to put in, to get that you would need to change or remove all mods not only serration.

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that is completely oblivious of weapon characteristics like RoF, Critical Chance,Critical Multiplier, Status Chance, original Damage Types AND ENEMY WEAKNESS, not to mention you can't "maximize"  in different ways unless you can get that theoretical maximum with only a few mods and then choose what else to put in, to get that you would need to change or remove all mods not only serration.

Still, you ALWAYS need your faction elementals (2 at minimum), Multishot, and damage mods (usually 3).

 

If it has high crit, status, or low RoF say goodbye to another 1-2 slots. That leaves 1 slot open, so I'd like to bump that up to 2, since all weapons benefit from more base damage I don't see the need to make it an 'optional' mod. It's a false choice. In terms of maximum, like I said before, we are already pumping out good or great DPS. Some players may have room to experiment now, or to add QoL mods to their weaponry. If they want more damage, that's fine, because that gives them the ability to go further into T4 if that's what they enjoy. I just want to remove the false choices presented by damage mods from the game.

 

The point is build variety. No one needs to remove elementals, because there are specific elemental combinations people use. Although it's a false choice as well, there is choice in terms of what elements to use, and therefore it's permissible. You choose to place elements and elemental combos. You're forced to use serration. There's a fine line.

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 You're forced to use serration. There's a fine line.

that you stepped when you suggested removing Blaze, what i'm talking about is at least have consistency, and you have yet to say how a single mod slot will change that variety what mod you need to add? "eagle eye"? "fast hands"? the regular status mods? is like saying remove all other auras because i want to use "quick draw" and not be a fool for wasting my aura on that

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told you he would remove elemental too

What are you even talking about there? I want Blaze removed because it's an essential mod for every build, regardless of the faction, the OP (UpgradeInProgress) doesn't want it removed.

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Guys, guys, guys... we're missing something important here.

If we remove straight-damage mods like Serration, how will DE get us to waste millions of fusion cores and credits?

SUFFERING IS LIFE.

You forget about the fact that we have legendary R10 mods to pour millions of credits and thousands of cores into there

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I am totally for this.

I'd also say to lower the max level damage increase to 135% of base.

 

30% less than a maxed Serration.

Same as the mod set to rank 8.

 

We get a small dip on DPS overall across the board, but guns remain effective in content past Tier4 (which they honestly shouldnt but removing that would create an apocalypse of butthurt).

 

I would also say once Serration is gone to give every player who got it above Rank 6 a Legendary Core.

 

I'd also love the ability to alter base stats by 1 point every level.

Base stats would include: crit chance, crit damage, projectile speed, accuracy, rate of fire, recoil, reload, puncture/impact/slash or elementals if weapons base is elemental

 

You could remove 1 point from 1 stat and place it elsewhere per level.

Every 5 levels you get 1 free point to distribute as you please. 6 points in total by the time you reach 30.

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People will move to the next best thing... as always. This would cause a lot of problems for very little payoff (imho).

 

Also... the choice in the builds would not be helped. The choice is between utility and damage... you usually can't have both in games. So if that utility mod helps you get more kills because it works for you personally... great! That is choice. When you can have the damage AND the utility both... ehm... how is that promoting choice or diversity?

 

So people will slot their damage and when they have space they will slot utility mod that fits the weapon best. People that use unusual builds will continue using them... hell, they'll lose Serration so they don't even have to choose anymore.

 

The problem is with $&*&*#(%& endless missions and broken enemy scaling, not the damage mods. Hence you will always need damage and mooore damage.

 

And about the refunds... how do you refund people that spent plat on these mods through trade? Refund their plat? So then what? You take it from the seller? No... of course not. How expensive would this pointless change be?

 

How about an extra (utility) mod slot? There... you have more "choice" in your builds as the evil Serration is no longer taking a spot. You still need energy because powercreep and balance.

 

Not addressing normalizing damage across weapon types cause that is just ridiculous. Ever thought that those weapons have different values on mods for a reason?

Edited by LocoWithGun
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please don't remove serration. Conditional mods are a horrible idea. I feel we are slowly lossing everything we worked for. I don't think I have it in me to put in another 2000 hours to reforma every weapon again. This is just one guys opinion.

When did I ever mention conditional damage? The idea is to remove serration as a mod and make it a damage buff innately tied to weapon rank, like Abilities are tied to Warframes. I refer you to the OP. 

Edited by UpgradeInProgress
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People will move to the next best thing... as always. This would cause a lot of problems for very little payoff (imho).

 

Also... the choice in the builds would not be helped. The choice is between utility and damage... you usually can't have both in games. So if that utility mod helps you get more kills because it works for you personally... great! That is choice. When you can have the damage AND the utility both... ehm... how is that promoting choice or diversity?

 

So people will slot their damage and when they have space they will slot utility mod that fits the weapon best. People that use unusual builds will continue using them... hell, they'll lose Serration so they don't even have to choose anymore.

 

The problem is with $&*&*#(%& endless missions and broken enemy scaling, not the damage mods. Hence you will always need damage and mooore damage.

 

And about the refunds... how do you refund people that spent plat on these mods through trade? Refund their plat? So then what? You take it from the seller? No... of course not. How expensive would this pointless change be?

 

How about an extra (utility) mod slot? There... you have more "choice" in your builds as the evil Serration is no longer taking a spot. You still need energy because powercreep and balance.

 

Not addressing normalizing damage across weapon types cause that is just ridiculous. Ever thought that those weapons have different values on mods for a reason?

So you would rather keep a mod that serves no real purpose instead of going the first step to actual customization by removing it? It won't magically fix everything that is wrong with customization, but it's one of the things that definitely hinder it since we basically have 6 mod slots with 45 energy instead of 8 with 60 thanks to damage and multishot taking up two of them on every single weapon ever. One fourth of our mod slots are already removed by giving us mods we can't go without.

As for giving players a "refund" we can go with a legendary core which ranks any mod to max for free.

Why aren't utility mods used? Because DE made them weak as all hell and didn't buff them ever since the Mod system was introduced in U7. Instead they will release Primed versions that are still utter garbage.

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As for giving players a "refund" we can go with a legendary core which ranks any mod to max for free.

And looked how well that turned out with Steel Charge (i.e.: Players maxing out the mods to get the most Legendary Cores out of the system). 

 

That is one problem. The other problem is: Why remove damage+ mods at all even if your proposed system was implemented? Why not allow players to choose to have a bit more extra damage (e.g.: Serration at max only gives +30% damage) instead of, for instance, more ammo? By removing Serration (and other damage+ mods), you would just shift towards other damage+ mods (what about the elemental+ mods? Corrupted mods?). 

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And looked how well that turned out with Steel Charge (i.e.: Players maxing out the mods to get the most Legendary Cores out of the system). 

 

That is one problem. The other problem is: Why remove damage+ mods at all even if your proposed system was implemented? Why not allow players to choose to have a bit more extra damage (e.g.: Serration at max only gives +30% damage) instead of, for instance, more ammo? By removing Serration (and other damage+ mods), you would just shift towards other damage+ mods (what about the elemental+ mods? Corrupted mods?).

Again, even if this doesn't fix every problem at once, it takes one problem out of the equation. No matter what you will say, Serration and other plain damage mods add no customization at all and thus have no place in the system that should allow customization.

I also already said that utility mods need to be balanced to make them a viable choice, but DE doesn't seem to want that. Even Primed versions are garbage because they simply don't give enough % to be useful in any way at all. Who would put a 30% magazine size mod on a weapon? No one of course since it barely changes anything. How about 90%? Or 120%? May just work out a lot better. Mods need to be properly balanced to allow more freedom of choice.

Exploiting the legendary cores is an issue, but DE could easily announce a limit of given out cores per mod type or simply make the ones given out have just the power to bring the respective mod taken away to its maximum rank so that players gain nothing from exploiting it.

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Again, even if this doesn't fix every problem at once, it takes one problem out of the equation. No matter what you will say, Serration and other plain damage mods add no customization at all and thus have no place in the system that should allow customization.

Except that they can?

 

You tweak around the numbers so that for higher costs, you get slightly higher damage output compared to other weapons (which means you actually have to choose whether to use it, or get more utility mods that would help the weapon perform better in a different way). I played games that performed this well, and removing things is generally the last resort. 

 

Exploiting the legendary cores is an issue, but DE could easily announce a limit of given out cores per mod type or simply make the ones given out have just the power to bring the respective mod taken away to its maximum rank so that players gain nothing from exploiting it.

Which still leads to players milking the system, since: 

 

1. Your former suggestion would then allow players to just start making alternate accounts, then trade the Legendary Cores back after the compensation. 

2. That sounds like what Legendary Cores do already, so I am not sure how that helps with anything. 

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2. That sounds like what Legendary Cores do already, so I am not sure how that helps with anything.

A legendary core ranks any mod to max rank, be it a common 5-rank mod or one of the new legendary mods. My suggestion would only bring a legendary mod to rank 9 instead, not giving the player more fusion power back than he put into actually ranking up the removed mod, which nakes the exploit pointless.

Except that they can?

 

You tweak around the numbers so that for higher costs, you get slightly higher damage output compared to other weapons (which means you actually have to choose whether to use it, or get more utility mods that would help the weapon perform better in a different way). I played games that performed this well, and removing things is generally the last resort. 

Serration is nothing but an overall performance boost with 0 depth, be it 30% or 300% damage. Nothing changes apart from straight number bloating.

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A legendary core ranks any mod to max rank, be it a common 5-rank mod or one of the new legendary mods. My suggestion would only bring a legendary mod to rank 9 instead, not giving the player more fusion power back than he put into actually ranking up the removed mod, which nakes the exploit pointless.

But with Legendary Cores being able to not need credits for Fusion, that is already quite something for it along with almost instant rank up. 

 

Serration is nothing but an overall performance boost with 0 depth, be it 30% or 300% damage. Nothing changes apart from straight number bloating.

And so? 

 

You can also have overall performance boosts with: 

 

Magazine Warp

Quickdraw (so that your Marelok deals out more damage)

Ammo Conversion mods (never stop shooting)

Speed Trigger (for clearing out things quickly)

Shred (Clearing out things quickly + Through cover)

 

To name a few. Having a mod that slightly increases damage for large costs would in fact benefit the game (say +15% for Serration at Max Rank would mean that players have to think a bit more through as to whether to use it or not). 

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Gonna nip this bud, compensation should not be discussed in this thread. The discussion is about whether or not the system is viable, if it should be implemented, and any tweaks and counter-arguments against this system. Compensation is purely speculative and adds nothing but fuel to the fire. 

 

I'll include my solution for those who are curious, though:

If legendary cores are implemented, only two per mod type should be granted. (This means two serrations, two hornet strikes, and two primed point blanks will yield 6 legendary cores). These cores will be completely untradeable. Cores will only be legendary if mod is at max rank, otherwise 'Rare' cores of the same rank as the mod removed will be granted. For mods like Pressure Point and Point Blank, they will grant Uncommon 5 cores. All mods that are not max ranked (with the exception of Primed Point Blank) will become common 3 fusion cores. This prevents abuse by capping possible cores, by creating guidelines to which the cap can be reached, and by preventing trade and account abuse by making legendary cores and R6+ cores untradeable.

Edited by UpgradeInProgress
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But with Legendary Cores being able to not need credits for Fusion, that is already quite something for it along with almost instant rank up. 

 

And so? 

 

You can also have overall performance boosts with: 

 

Magazine Warp

Quickdraw (so that your Marelok deals out more damage)

Ammo Conversion mods (never stop shooting)

Speed Trigger (for clearing out things quickly)

Shred (Clearing out things quickly + Through cover)

 

To name a few. Having a mod that slightly increases damage for large costs would in fact benefit the game (say +15% for Serration at Max Rank would mean that players have to think a bit more through as to whether to use it or not).

All listed mods either don't apply to every situation or have drawbacks on ammo consumption. Overall performance is per definition one that always applies. Not a valid point, sorry.

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This would be a pretty good idea, especially for crit build rifles and melee weapons.

 

Freeing up that extra mod slot might not mean much for a boltor, but it means a lot to a soma.  Also, melee weapons have terrible scaling in their pressure point mod and I've noticed major damage dropoffs due to melee not having the 165% damage buff, and melee not having the equivalent of a multishot mod.

 

If all weapons gain a 165% damage increase at level 30, shotguns and melee would catch up with rifles, while crit build rifles get an extra mod to play with.

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Removing Serration/Hornet Strike has been suggested a lot of times. And instead linking damage to weapon level either.

 

A few problems, OP:

 

What people forget, is: Serration acts as a progress bar. The longer you play, more likely you are doing more and more damage because you will be able to max these mods over time.

 

If that mechanic gets removed, we will have a lot less feasible progress. Dunno if peopleva fine with that. Those who have maxed Serration probably not or won't care, those without are probably those who will be happy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And if Serration can be replaced, people won't equip a utility mod. They could have done so before. They will slap in more elementals and what did really change? We have even more powerfull weapons and less work less things to work for or looking forward to accomplish.

Edited by SIDESTRE4M
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All listed mods either don't apply to every situation or have drawbacks on ammo consumption. Overall performance is per definition one that always applies. Not a valid point, sorry.

At least with Magazine Warp, less reloads (rather good for LMGs). 

 

Ammo Mutation is pretty useful for high fire rate weapons that eat up a lot of ammo. 

 

Shred allows you to kill lines of enemies for one bullet. 

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