The Inconsistency Between Primed Mods And Devstream #44 Overview

[Phoenix86]

Yeah... that's it pretty much.

 

I mean, you -DE- state that:

 

"Power creep is a delicate subject, but it's one we're discussing.

Mods like Serration are obvious flaws in a system designed to be as customizable as possible, and we're not happy with forcing any players to build their Warframe in a particular fashion."

 

Yet Primed Mods are the epitome of this problem and are being released regardless.

You say it's a delicate subject and, meanwhile, you release stuff that will only make it EVEN MORE delicate and complex.

 

Now i understand that Primed Mods are a credit/core/time sink for those players who basically got "everything" and got nothing left to do but seriously.. i dont know if these mods, in the long term run, are going to bring more goods than bads.

 

Primed Point Blank is already out... what's gonna happen when Primed Serration and Primed Hornet Strike will be released?

At least Corrupted mods had a drawback. These are just insane... from all points of view.

 

But maybe it's already too late to talk about this, it's not like "you can stop releasing them now".

Even if i'd wish you do.

 

Leaving on the background personal preferences and tastes i'm gonna simply state again an objective fact:

 

There's no consistence between the release of these mods and what you told us in DevStream #44,

i hope you'll aknowledge this and take full responsability of what is going to come.

 

Last but not least i'll quote the last sentence from the Overview:

 

"Rest assured, when the time comes to make adjustments to damage output it will be more than just a small tweak."

 

Ok DE, "i'll rest assured" ... really hope to not get disappointed or that simply this "update" will not come when it's already too late.

 

I really hope the best for you, because Warframe, even with all its flaws, it's a great game, i'm just worried for its future.

 

EDIT: I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT R20 MODS.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Phoenix86

[Hopakkiin]

No R20 mods. I am sorry but there won't be any anytime soon.

Power = Costs

This is true for anything.

You can't rank up a Primed serration to the max rank without using a legendary core.

[Krotalon]

No R20 mods. I am sorry but there won't be any anytime soon.

Power = Costs

This is true for anything.

You can't rank up a Primed serration to the max rank without using a legendary core.

Nobody's talking about Rank 20 mods.

[Sixty5]

Primed Point Blank was necessary.

 

Shotgun mods have scaled in to garbage forever, it was about time we got a decent mod for them.

 

Pistols hit 286% damage buff with Two mods, and Rifles hit 330% with two as well.

 

Before PPB, shotguns only got to 240, and that required THREE mods.

 

Now they hit 315% for a cost of three mods, which puts them almost on par with the other weapon types.

 

 

What i am trying to say is that Primed Point Blank was a thing because Shotguns needed it. Rifles and Pistols DON'T need it, and therefore primed hornet strike and serration will not be a thing.

[Somedude1000]

While you make a fair point, iirc all mods released so far are 5 rank mods upgraded to have 10 ranks, it is probably unlikely well see a primed serration or hornet strike because of this since they already have 10 ranks, mostly because the fusion cost will be madness unless you have a legendary core >_>

 

For reference, a rank 5 continuity gives the same percentage as a rank 5 primed continuity, the extra 25 percent though, allows a primed continuity to be used in an alternative build for those who managed to snatch one, the same fgoes for other mods

[Husla]

I understand what you're talking about but Primed Ravage and Point Black needed to be released. Shotguns aren't just viable option.

[Hopakkiin]

Nobody's talking about Rank 20 mods.

Sure they were talking about removing Serration, but all primed mods have been former R5 mods. No R10 mod can be primed without destroying the balance. Seriously De will not create primed versions of these mods.

Please. Just wait for DE to change things before you complain.

Don't create stress for the devs. They have enough to do. I guess.

[endevite]

I suspect they are balancing like this, you have existing r10 mods like serration, and you have primed versions of mods that only topped out at r5 originally, so what I believe they are doing to balance it out, as with point blank for example, is to make r10 versions of the r5 mods so that everything is about on the same page.

 

I doubt we will see any prime mods that weren't originally based on r3 or r5 mods.

 

The only problem with this approach imo, is that it's a reeaaaly slow way to go about it, they should put out more on the Void Trader at a lower cost to speed up the process, this snails pace release will take forever just to get through all the mods even just once and waiting a year to see a repeat is a bit much (if even a year and not longer).

 

note: I do look forward to primed streamline/intensify/stretch and so on to give me more frame build options so I have a choice between corrupted mods or not.

Edited January 14, 2015 by endevite

[CY13ERPUNK]

+99 OP

[Phoenix86]

-snip-

 

I agree that Shotguns needed a better "main dmg mod" to be "on par" with other weapon's classes...

they should have buffed Point Blank, not making its Primed version imho

 

Anyway it was just an example and my talk is way more "generalized" about the "Primed Mod System" as a whole

[VDeorsum]

I have to admit, when i saw the devstream and Steve has talked to serration and for his possibly remove, i think to primed point black. This is a nonsense, before you release a legendary mod that  increase purely the damage and afther a week you think to remove completely the entire category? Sometime i really think that the left hand don't know what the right is doing

 

If the Devs remove serration, they have to remove ALL damage increase mods, pressure point, point black and primed point black, hornet strike. So release a primed version of a mod that will be (maybe) removed it's a nonsense.

 

And at last but not the last the shotgun are planned to be buffed, so, i don't see what primed point black will be necessary (it's necessary now, but afther the buff?)

[Krotalon]

Sure they were talking about removing Serration, but all primed mods have been former R5 mods. No R10 mod can be primed without destroying the balance. Seriously De will not create primed versions of these mods.

Please. Just wait for DE to change things before you complain.

Don't create stress for the devs. They have enough to do. I guess.

 

I'm not creating "stress for the devs" (What?) nor I'm complaining about anything. What the Hek are you even talking about?

OP didn't mention any R20 mod. R20 mods will most likely never exist; mod cards are not even graphically designed to support 20 ranks, if you look closer.

 

The issue here is that mods like Serration/Hornet Strike/Point Blank/Pressure Point add flat out damage without any drawback and they're pretty much mandatory for every single weapon in the Warframe universe. With the advent of Primed Mods, DE is introducing more and more mandatory mods if you wish to max out a weapon's stats, which is why the problem is delicate and getting more complex.

 

Please, read the opening post before posting.

[VDeorsum]

mod cards are not even graphically designed to support 20 ranks, if you look closer.

 maybe insert other 10 space in the right side XD

seriusly i don't think that a 20R mod will be possible

Edited January 14, 2015 by VDeorsum

[Hopakkiin]

I'm not creating "stress for the devs" (What?) nor I'm complaining about anything. What the Hek are you even talking about?

OP didn't mention any R20 mod. R20 mods will most likely never exist; mod cards are not even graphically designed to support 20 ranks, if you look closer.

 

The issue here is that mods like Serration/Hornet Strike/Point Blank/Pressure Point add flat out damage without any drawback and they're pretty much mandatory for every single weapon in the Warframe universe. With the advent of Primed Mods, DE is introducing more and more mandatory mods if you wish to max out a weapon's stats, which is why the problem is delicate and getting more complex.

 

Please, read the opening post before posting.

I did infact mean the OP with the stress.

I also can't read.

[Phoenix86]

I dont think i'm "stressing" anyone, let alone the DE (if they'll ever see/answer this thread) which are already aware that they need to act

 

but i felt obligated to point out what's happening in game Vs what they are telling us in DevStreams...

 

because there's no coherence in this case.

 

what's the point of admitting that "Serration is a problem" meanwhile releasing "Serration_over_9000_version" ?

Edited January 14, 2015 by Phoenix86

[haolee510]

I did infact mean the OP with the stress.

I also can't read.

Please stop trolling. Just admit you were wrong and move on.

[endevite]

As an append to my previous post, it is possible de will swap serration/hornet/meleemod r10 for a r5 variant like they did with steel and give a compensator like they did then, however a proper solution would be to simply take hornet/serration/pointblank/whatever melee one was called can't recall, and merge their stats directly into the corresponding weapons as a scaling increase in damage based on weapon rank, this not only retains our damage, but also retains the lack of dmg buff at low/no rank, as well as frees up a slot for more customization.

 

I feel this would get most of those who are still angry about "required damage mods" off their back.

Edited January 14, 2015 by endevite

[matrixEXO]

Primed Point Blank was necessary.

 

Shotgun mods have scaled in to garbage forever, it was about time we got a decent mod for them.

 

Pistols hit 286% damage buff with Two mods, and Rifles hit 330% with two as well.

 

Before PPB, shotguns only got to 240, and that required THREE mods.

 

Now they hit 315% for a cost of three mods, which puts them almost on par with the other weapon types.

 

 

What i am trying to say is that Primed Point Blank was a thing because Shotguns needed it. Rifles and Pistols DON'T need it, and therefore primed hornet strike and serration will not be a thing.

It's not that they don't need it but they just have a mod that is already R10 in nature. PB is R5 in nature and thus creates that dissonance with the similarly designed rifle and pistol.

 

Also, 3 mods but differing mod point costs. I am a stickler to not forma-ing my weapon and those extra mod points spent into that could as well be spent into optimizing my build even more. Not saying it's not good but currently my Hek is running R8 PPB, maxed Shattered Justice, Hell's Chamber, Blaze and Breech Loader. This brings my mod points down to 6. Say that I gave up on PPB, settle with an elemental mod like Chilling Grasp or a dual stat mod like Frigid Blast. This gives me more utility in the weapon than otherwise would be for just power (Frigid Blast) or grant additional utility for the same damage value (Chilling Grasp).

 

 

EDIT: Let it be known that I will never Forma my weapons or frames ever. Because I love decision making to optimize weapons within constraints so long as the constraints aren't a noose (catalyst & reactor).

Edited January 14, 2015 by matrixEXO

[ThePresident777]

I agree, Primed mods are weird.  First, access is limited which is problematic on it's own, creating a haves vs. have nots problem.  Second, they act as an obstacle. 

 

For example, Primed Fast Hands is almost as good as Speed Trigger or Vile Accelration (which is functionally equivalent to Speed Trigger), (+55% vs. +60%), but a lot more expensive.  This implies that Speed Trigger will always be the best in all respects for rifle firing cycle mods.  That comes across as arbitrary to me.  And, no, I do not accept the ammo economy opinion.  Running out of bullets is boring, inactive, lame.

 

There is a variety of Tenno content in Warframe that imply obstacles.  Another example is Nekros.  Any change in drops implies Nekros because of desecrate.

 

The result is that if one thing is changed then someone complains that something else broke so the change has to be undone or it's too much work to change all the other things for the sake of the new change.  It's typical psyops used to promote nerfs.

 

The hilarious thing is that in the Year Of Quality, "the whole animal" is going to get changed so we'll be seeing new arbitrary excuses to nerf because the "too much work" excuse is too much funny now. 

 

Maybe the issue of Primed Mods being not so Prime will get fixed.  But, if history is any lesson, I doubt a truly favorable outcome will occur.  It's liable Primed Mods will be used to set limits on fun, to promote nerfs, to promote low quality action, high quality inaction, boring ! DarkSoulsFrame.  It would not surprise me if Primed Mods were used as an upper limit to aid the excuses to push the "balance" point further into the negative.  Major changes in Warframe tend to be Trojan Nerfhorses.  Look at the Fury nerf that came with Melee 2.0.  Look at the XP rate nerf that came with Damage 2.0.  Look at the butchery commited on AW movement.  Even Itzal doesn't undo the destruction, yet, it's the upper limit on AW movement.  More examples than I can remember where fun was an accident later "corrected". 

 

I suspect the Year of Quality will be the final "correction" and Primed Mods are weapon in that arsenal.  The halt to the Boltor Prime nerf is probably temporary.

Edited January 14, 2015 by ThePresident777

[xyLoneZ]

Primed Point Blank was necessary.

 

Shotgun mods have scaled in to garbage forever, it was about time we got a decent mod for them.

 

Pistols hit 286% damage buff with Two mods, and Rifles hit 330% with two as well.

 

Before PPB, shotguns only got to 240, and that required THREE mods.

 

Now they hit 315% for a cost of three mods, which puts them almost on par with the other weapon types.

 

 

What i am trying to say is that Primed Point Blank was a thing because Shotguns needed it. Rifles and Pistols DON'T need it, and therefore primed hornet strike and serration will not be a thing.

or they could make point blank a r10 uncommon mods, just like Serration and Hornet Strike.

 

It doesn't really justify the addition of a r10 legendary mods. Unlike Primed Flow/Continuity which is a luxury, PPB is mandatory for every shotgun build out there just like Serration/HS.

 

Flow/Cont is already good, primed version of them makes them even better.

Point Blank was bad compared to Serration/HS, primed version makes them on-par with Serration/HS.

Spot the difference!

 

On-topic: Consistency has never been a thing in Warframe. Just look at the stupid unbalanced numbers on some of the mods, especially ice damage on pistol and melee. Deep Freeze being an absolute trash compared to Frostbite? North WInd being an absolute trash compared to Vicious Frost? The fix should be as easy as changing the numbers to its rifle counterpart, yet here we are, at 2015, with no sign of it being changed ever.

[Phoenix86]

 

On-topic: Consistency has never been a thing in Warframe. Just look at the stupid unbalanced numbers on some of the mods, especially ice damage on pistol and melee. Deep Freeze being an absolute trash compared to Frostbite? North WInd being an absolute trash compared to Vicious Frost? The fix should be as easy as changing the numbers to its rifle counterpart, yet here we are, at 2015, with no sign of it being changed ever.

 

i gave up on getting angry about that ç_ç

 

sometimes i felt like going in their office and yell "give me that keyboard!" and with a furious smash of buttons simply change all those "60%" to "90%"

 

I still cant think of a single reason why this thing is still on the "to do" list

 

Oh, an erase the "D" polarity from the face of Earth. (on weapons)

[matrixEXO]

On-topic: Consistency has never been a thing in Warframe. Just look at the stupid unbalanced numbers on some of the mods, especially ice damage on pistol and melee. Deep Freeze being an absolute trash compared to Frostbite? North WInd being an absolute trash compared to Vicious Frost? The fix should be as easy as changing the numbers to its rifle counterpart, yet here we are, at 2015, with no sign of it being changed ever.

The values are still pre-Damage 2.0 values where certain weapons were supposed to only be better at certain elements... until Toxin came out as well as dual-stat mods. Heck, a lot of the dual-stat mods generally provide better value than the single-stat mod counterpart.

[matrixEXO]

Oh, an erase the "D" polarity from the face of Earth. (on weapons)

I'd rather see D polarity basically be a unique mod where killing enemies grants a chance to drop a health orb. That way, almost all the singular D base-polarised weapons have a reason to exist.

Edited January 14, 2015 by matrixEXO

[Phoenix86]

The values are still pre-Damage 2.0 values where certain weapons were supposed to only be better at certain elements... until Toxin came out as well as dual-stat mods. Heck, a lot of the dual-stat mods generally provide better value than the single-stat mod counterpart.

 

and... dont you think it's about damn time to update those mods?

(not to mention Blaze nightmare mod lol, it locks any shotgun build with Heat dmg or lose a 60% base dmg boost)

 

but we are going off-topic and i'll cut this here, would u too?

Edited January 14, 2015 by Phoenix86

[Synvul]

I read this and can only think about how short a time I have been playing but feels like damage has already went through first iteration to a second one where this to me reads like the whole damage system needs a reboot. Of course that would make people upset and I am sure would be very bad for DE. I think that it would be better to see mods introduced that would offer different build options and were not able to be slotted with certain other mods.