The Inconsistency Between Primed Mods And Devstream #44 Overview

[matrixEXO]

and... dont you think it's about damn time to update those mods?

(not to mention Blaze nightmare mod lol, it locks any shotgun build with Heat dmg or lose a 60% base dmg boost)

 

but we are going off-topic and i'll cut this here, would u too?

Final say, Blaze basically asks players to put in a cold mod so a shotgun actually has some impact to it (bang, you're down!). That's how I see it anyway.

 

Yes we are. Time to head on back.

Edited January 14, 2015 by matrixEXO

[Letter13]

Moved to General Feedback.

[Phoenix86]

Moved to General Feedback.

 

mmmhh kk... thought discussing about a DevStream Overview and Mod's release was a Discussion, not a Feedback

 

whatever, i just hope anyone at DE will read this

[geninrising]

Yeah... that's it pretty much.

 

I mean, you -DE- state that:

 

"Power creep is a delicate subject, but it's one we're discussing.

Mods like Serration are obvious flaws in a system designed to be as customizable as possible, and we're not happy with forcing any players to build their Warframe in a particular fashion."

 

Yet Primed Mods are the epitome of this problem and are being released regardless.

You say it's a delicate subject and, meanwhile, you release stuff that will only make it EVEN MORE delicate and complex.

 

Now i understand that Primed Mods are a credit/core/time sink for those players who basically got "everything" and got nothing left to do but seriously.. i dont know if these mods, in the long term run, are going to bring more goods than bads.

 

Primed Point Blank is already out... what's gonna happen when Primed Serration and Primed Hornet Strike will be released?

At least Corrupted mods had a drawback. These are just insane... from all points of view.

 

But maybe it's already too late to talk about this, it's not like "you can stop releasing them now".

Even if i'd wish you do.

 

Leaving on the background personal preferences and tastes i'm gonna simply state again an objective fact:

 

There's no consistence between the release of these mods and what you told us in DevStream #44,

i hope you'll aknowledge this and take full responsability of what is going to come.

 

Last but not least i'll quote the last sentence from the Overview:

 

"Rest assured, when the time comes to make adjustments to damage output it will be more than just a small tweak."

 

Ok DE, "i'll rest assured" ... really hope to not get disappointed or that simply this "update" will not come when it's already too late.

 

I really hope the best for you, because Warframe, even with all its flaws, it's a great game, i'm just worried for its future.

 

EDIT: I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT R20 MODS.

+1 Op on the comment on consistency.

 

I would like to add to that subject.

Let's talk the Viver incident and how it too relates to the Primed mods.

 

[DE]Steve stated clearly that the behavior highlighted in the Viver incident is an exploit of the energy gating mechanic that was supposed to prevent that exact kind of behavior. Then came Primed Flow, Primed Continuity, and soon to be followed(probably) by Prime Stretch, and Primed Streamline.

 

Does that not serve as a sort of two faced act on the part of DE. To condemn the action and then follow that condemnation with further support for the behavior? Or are we looking at the groundwork for the removal of corrupted mods? Potentially Energy 2.0?

 

It would benefit this community as a whole to actually receive full disclosure and transparency when implementing things rather than tiny tidbits dribbled out, until suddenly a sweeping change overcomes us without any type of preparation for the system shock that will undoubtedly occur in it's wake. 

[Phoenix86]

+1 Op on the comment on consistency.

 

I would like to add to that subject.

Let's talk the Viver incident and how it too relates to the Primed mods.

 

[DE]Steve stated clearly that the behavior highlighted in the Viver incident is an exploit of the energy gating mechanic that was supposed to prevent that exact kind of behavior. Then came Primed Flow, Primed Continuity, and soon to be followed(probably) by Prime Stretch, and Primed Streamline.

 

Does that not serve as a sort of two faced act on the part of DE. To condemn the action and then follow that condemnation with further support for the behavior? 

 

100% agree

[Vadrigos]

I understand what you're talking about but Primed Ravage and Point Black needed to be released. Shotguns aren't just viable option.

 

THat's only because DE hasn't been willing to sink time into actually FIXING them. Again with the band-aids!!

[geninrising]

Thankfully shotguns are getting an overhaul sometime.

 

Hopefully DE's whole Year of Quality thing is going to extend to a massive push to fix bugs and evaluate feedback on various subjects and maybe even implement a few deeply thought out ideas. There are quite a few very verbose posts on a number of matters that desperately need attention. 

[Liminal]

There's no consistence between the release of these mods and what you told us

in Warframe.

 

I love the game, but it's so incoherent in so many places.

And Devstreams (or "Livestreams" as they were called when I started watching them) always filled me with hope, which then would erode over two weeks until the next one.

[ThePresident777]

Yes, the devstreams are a source of inconsistency as wonderful things are said on them then the nerf hammer freely tramples all the fun for a year straight.  Let's see if that quality is resolved this year.

Edited January 14, 2015 by ThePresident777

[geninrising]

As long as they address radial nuke spam I'm just fine if nothing else ends up fully fleshed out this year honestly.

[GeneralArmchair]

The values are still pre-Damage 2.0 values where certain weapons were supposed to only be better at certain elements... until Toxin came out as well as dual-stat mods. Heck, a lot of the dual-stat mods generally provide better value than the single-stat mod counterpart.

Then explain the disparity in mod point costs for archwing elemental damage mods.

[Bernkastal]

I thoroughly disagree wit your thoughts behind primed mods. Their choices in primed mods so far has been perfectly acceptable. Extra dfgration is not a game break in mechanic, it's a quality of life change. Maximum energy? You still have yo use the powers and is just a larger stockpile. Point blank is unique in the weapon type that it addresses.very few other weaponsbotger than shotguns have built in damage falloff, meaning that shotguns are supposed to be spectacular in close range, so a flat damage boost is fa more acceptable than it would be for a rifle. They have made very deliberate choices on what gets primed so far, balance minded choices while still thinking about the veteran players and general completionistism.

[Phoenix86]

I thoroughly disagree wit your thoughts behind primed mods. Their choices in primed mods so far has been perfectly acceptable. Extra dfgration is not a game break in mechanic, it's a quality of life change. Maximum energy? You still have yo use the powers and is just a larger stockpile. Point blank is unique in the weapon type that it addresses.very few other weaponsbotger than shotguns have built in damage falloff, meaning that shotguns are supposed to be spectacular in close range, so a flat damage boost is fa more acceptable than it would be for a rifle. They have made very deliberate choices on what gets primed so far, balance minded choices while still thinking about the veteran players and general completionistism.

 

Dude, i MAY agree with you that there's nothing wrong in Primed Mods.

 

But they cant go live in a DevStream a say "oh look, we dont want to decrease customization, we dont want players to feel obligated to equip certain mods, we think mods like Serration are bad"

 

They cant make posts like "We dont like Energy Loop Holes, we dont want Homer's bird play the game for you" and then come out with Primed Flow, Primed Streamline, Spammable Consumables and then "Better Nerf Trinity"

 

I'm just pointing out the inconsistency between these 2 situations, Primed Mods arent necessary "wrong" but they surely go in the opposite direction of their statements

[geninrising]

Dude, i MAY agree with you that there's nothing wrong in Primed Mods.

 

But they cant go live in a DevStream a say "oh look, we dont want to decrease customization, we dont want players to feel obligated to equip certain mods, we think mods like Serration are bad"

 

They cant make posts like "We dont like Energy Loop Holes, we dont want Homer's bird play the game for you" and then come out with Primed Flow, Primed Streamline, Spammable Consumables and then "Better Nerf Trinity"

 

I'm just pointing out the inconsistency between these 2 situations, Primed Mods arent necessary "wrong" but they surely go in the opposite direction of their statements

My thoughts on this is that they are laying the ground work for a soon to be implemented energy rework. They are TEMPORARILY increasing our energy supply and ability to maintain our powers longer.

 

Why would we need these things considering our capability to maintain infinite energy as is? 

 

In order to ensure that after whatever changes are coming down the pipe hit us, we can still use our powers effectively. It may be a massive nerf to energy efficiency combined with a Trinity rework and potentially removal of the ability to craft energy restores period.(although this would be drastic in the extreme). 

 

Who knows they may even place ultimates on a cooldown or some recharge mechanic and feel we may need more energy and duration for our other abilities to help bring their use to more prominence.

 

In fact they have already started the shift away from energy regeneration yesterday with the nerf to Entropy and Blight augments and weapons.

I just see the addition of said prime mods as a way to make us a bit more powerful in the wake of energy reform, which to be quite frank, we all new was coming once the Viver strat became public knowledge and DE actually publicly condemned the behavior.

 

I am sure that DE wants us to utilize our powers in strategic situations not just jam that 4 till you break your keyboard.

[Phoenix86]

So to sum it up in your opinion they are "buffing" us (premise we spend a crapload of time/credits/cores to max those mods) to "nerf us better" later on?

 

Am i getting it right?

[geninrising]

So to sum it up in your opinion they are "buffing" us (premise we spend a crapload of time/credits/cores to max those mods) to "nerf us better" later on?

 

Am i getting it right?

Yes, I think they are making us "balanced" for future changes.

 

Currently DE is in a quandary of what to do about our ability to nuke everything on the face of the planets we visit. However they cannot nerf us without first allowing us commensurate opportunity to keep casting a viable option. 

 

So rather that the basic all around nerf first then power us up a bit later(which would have a huge backlash IMO.

 

They overpower us first, then when nerfs hit we find that it is still able to be lived with due to the inclusion of more powerful mods.

 

At least I hope that's where they are going otherwise DESteve is a bold face lier and has little credibility from here on out due to his"stance" on Vivergate.

[Vitalis_Inamorta]

Let's be perfectly honest here.  There was NEVER a problem at viver in the first place.  The REAL problem was DE implementing syndicates, with a massive grindwall that new players would gradually vanquish as they played the game, while leaving players that had already vanquished most of the game in the lurch.

 

Of COURSE well-geared endgame players are going to find the most efficient method possible to get stuff that they SHOULD ALREADY HAVE faster!  DE OUGHT to have fixed this oversight when they implemented syndicates, perhaps by taking the EXP a person has earned(dividing by a suitable multiplier, obviously people who run a lot of endless missions to late in will have insane amounts of EXP saved up in a smaller amount of overall time), and then giving pre-syndicate vouchers (which already exist in the game as the syndicate specific tokens you can hunt down in syndicate missions) to players with the update that brought syndicates into the game, allowing these players to rapidly invest in the syndicates they wanted to as if they had done so while playing the game before hand.

 

Nullifiers were implemented for the same reason, DE knee-jerk reacting to players fixing the problem that DE created.  Nullifiers are STILL completely and utterly stupid-broken with regards to heavily nerfing low RoF high power weapons while buffing the ALREADY biased towards high RoF weapons via a ridiculous, counterintuitive mechanic that should NEVER have blocked bullets or blades AT ALL in the first place.

 

None of the damage 4s have ever been a problem.  5k damage?  Any well modded weapon will do that in a shot or three.  20k damage?  Snipers do as much or more on average per shot, and with max power strength you've nerfed every other part of your kit to siphon all the power into your 4, as well as playing a specific frame (ash/rhino/excalibur), so why shouldn't you be able to?  No, the problem here isn't players winning easily, the problem here is bored players winning easy content easily, based on the massive amounts of resources, power, and knowledge they have ALREADY collected about the game.

 

IF DE doesn't like it, they need to work harder on the endgame and segregating players of widely variant mastery ranks (unless friend/premade intentionally) and focus less on people doing what they are intended to do to low difficulty challenges.

 

Namely, utterly ANNIHILATING them.

[Eric1738]

because 1st those future changes wont happen soon, so might just sell those mods as early as possible. 2nd people keep thinking DE will remove mods like serration. i mean come on, DE might adjust them, but remove? unlikely, they are time/resources sink to keep players playing the game and they represent a sense of progress.

[VDeorsum]

Let's be perfectly honest here.  There was NEVER a problem at viver in the first place.  The REAL problem was DE implementing syndicates, with a massive grindwall that new players would gradually vanquish as they played the game, while leaving players that had already vanquished most of the game in the lurch.

 

Of COURSE well-geared endgame players are going to find the most efficient method possible to get stuff that they SHOULD ALREADY HAVE faster!  DE OUGHT to have fixed this oversight when they implemented syndicates, perhaps by taking the EXP a person has earned(dividing by a suitable multiplier, obviously people who run a lot of endless missions to late in will have insane amounts of EXP saved up in a smaller amount of overall time), and then giving pre-syndicate vouchers (which already exist in the game as the syndicate specific tokens you can hunt down in syndicate missions) to players with the update that brought syndicates into the game, allowing these players to rapidly invest in the syndicates they wanted to as if they had done so while playing the game before hand.

 

Nullifiers were implemented for the same reason, DE knee-jerk reacting to players fixing the problem that DE created.  Nullifiers are STILL completely and utterly stupid-broken with regards to heavily nerfing low RoF high power weapons while buffing the ALREADY biased towards high RoF weapons via a ridiculous, counterintuitive mechanic that should NEVER have blocked bullets or blades AT ALL in the first place.

 

None of the damage 4s have ever been a problem.  5k damage?  Any well modded weapon will do that in a shot or three.  20k damage?  Snipers do as much or more on average per shot, and with max power strength you've nerfed every other part of your kit to siphon all the power into your 4, as well as playing a specific frame (ash/rhino/excalibur), so why shouldn't you be able to?  No, the problem here isn't players winning easily, the problem here is bored players winning easy content easily, based on the massive amounts of resources, power, and knowledge they have ALREADY collected about the game.

 

IF DE doesn't like it, they need to work harder on the endgame and segregating players of widely variant mastery ranks (unless friend/premade intentionally) and focus less on people doing what they are intended to do to low difficulty challenges.

 

Namely, utterly ANNIHILATING them.

you have my upvote man, but this isn't off topic?

[geninrising]

you have my upvote man, but this isn't off topic?

Actually it is precisely part of this topic.

 

What we have been discussing is DE's stance on ability spam provided in the devstream 44 overview wherein DE spoke about reviewing the core of the Vivergate problem(ie: Xray aoe nukes and the energy loophole) DE called this an exploit and then put out more mods to support said playstyle, thus my idea that maybe they are buffing us currently for a future nerf to the energy system and or the ways we can regain energy.

 

Energy was always meant to be something to limit ability usage(hence why there is a meter to begin with) however players have figured out how to completely bypass this gating mechanic thus creating the Viver dilemma.

[Phoenix86]

I still dont get why you would, as a player, like a solution that is like:

 

"yeah eat, eat the cake, is delicious isnt it? Eat more please, pay for it, eat more! it's so sweet!"

 

and then all of a sudden

 

"you lazy fat bastard, give me the cake, the cake is a lie. Now you gonna eat vegetables for the rest of your life!"

 

None likes the illusion of buff and then be nerfed to hell

 

How can you find this solution "good" is beyond my comprension

[P0int.Zer0]

or they could make point blank a r10 uncommon mods, just like Serration and Hornet Strike.

 

It doesn't really justify the addition of a r10 legendary mods. Unlike Primed Flow/Continuity which is a luxury, PPB is mandatory for every shotgun build out there just like Serration/HS.

 

Flow/Cont is already good, primed version of them makes them even better.

Point Blank was bad compared to Serration/HS, primed version makes them on-par with Serration/HS.

Spot the difference!

 

On-topic: Consistency has never been a thing in Warframe. Just look at the stupid unbalanced numbers on some of the mods, especially ice damage on pistol and melee. Deep Freeze being an absolute trash compared to Frostbite? North WInd being an absolute trash compared to Vicious Frost? The fix should be as easy as changing the numbers to its rifle counterpart, yet here we are, at 2015, with no sign of it being changed ever.

 +1

Primed Point Blank was a mistake, now they´ve got another refund issue like the legendary cores lying around. Great.

If they removed serration shotguns would have an upper hand.

I follow your suggestion: just turn Point Blank into an R10 mod = problem solved

Just give those people who bought it +300 ducats and the cores and credits they sank into it back.

(yea i bought one and wouldn´t even mind if i get NO refund. just get rid of it)

Primed mods in general:

Problem: Because they are just plain better then thier standard counter they become mandatory, throw your old flow and continuity away.

Solution: Every frame/weapon/kubrow? can only have one primed mod equiped at a time. Then you have to decide what you want to max, making these mods non mandatory because you sacrifice the ability to max another aspect of your frame.

[Phoenix86]

Solution: Every frame/weapon/kubrow? can only have one primed mod equiped at a time. Then you have to decide what you want to max, making these mods non mandatory because you sacrifice the ability to max another aspect of your frame.

 

this sounds really good to me

[geninrising]

I still dont get why you would, as a player, like a solution that is like:

 

"yeah eat, eat the cake, is delicious isnt it? Eat more please, pay for it, eat more! it's so sweet!"

 

and then all of a sudden

 

"you lazy fat bastard, give me the cake, the cake is a lie. Now you gonna eat vegetables for the rest of your life!"

 

None likes the illusion of buff and then be nerfed to hell

 

How can you find this solution "good" is beyond my comprension

Simply put. Good is subjective.

 

Would it be good for players that love to spam abilities or those AOE nukes to be specific? No obviously as they would lose the means to perform said action.

 

Would it be good for players that hate being unable to play how they want to in pugs because of ult spammers? Most assuredly.

 

Would it be better for the overall health of the game? Depends on who you are asking.

 

Would fixing a mechanic that is not currently working, energy, be a good thing? Most assuredly.(which is not subjective as broken things or things that serve no purpose should be fixed or removed as they are superfluous.

[Phoenix86]

Simply put. Good is subjective.

 

Would it be good for players that love to spam abilities or those AOE nukes to be specific? No obviously as they would lose the means to perform said action.

 

Would it be good for players that hate being unable to play how they want to in pugs because of ult spammers? Most assuredly.

 

Would it be better for the overall health of the game? Depends on who you are asking.

 

Would fixing a mechanic that is not currently working, energy, be a good thing? Most assuredly.(which is not subjective as broken things or things that serve no purpose should be fixed or removed as they are superfluous.

 

Good surely is subjective -most of the times-

 

That being said i dont think the majority of this community would enjoy a situation that could be summed up like this: