Power Creep Is Not An Issue: Please Read, De.

[BlutAdler]

These are the threads I love.. "we're too overpowered!!!" 2 months later, "X-mission mode or X- Enemy is too difficutl!!"

 

EG when lephantis came and was scaled to tremendous difficulty people freaked out. LOL DE just can't win.

[vaugahn]

 

Finally someone that gets it, +1

 

We put in time just to get more powerful/better on every game ever...

 

You should post more ! to balance out those nerf cryer nerds.

 

Just stop. Please.

[ThePresident777]

DE "can't win" (in quotes because they are making money) because they keep trying to thread player base fractures that can't be threaded.  It's not possible to create content that is suitable for both people who have fast reaction speeds and those who do not, for people who have long attention spans and those who do not, for people who want to see chunks and mist rain non-stop and those who do not, for people who want Dark Souls and those who want Space Ninja, for people and for "balance", and other mutually exclusive options.  If it's possible, then, fine, show the proof.  But, that is the issue here as I explained on the first page and tons of other posts.  It's not over powered, or under powered, or balanced, or unbalanced, or incomparables or other bull S#&$.  It's about comparables such as reaction speed, attention span, etc.

 

Let's analyze that Extra Credits: Power Creep video.  EC, presents a problem: new player content being objectively superior to old player content therefore making old content obsolete and their investment wasted.  EC's solution is to make it incomparable, not comparable.  That is entirely idiotic.  It's not possible for players to not compare things.  First of all they have themselves as a reference.  Either players are entertained or they are not.  In which case, they leave what does not entertain them and go to what does entertain them.  Cosmetics are a perfect example of this.  If they can see numbers, then, they take the numbers as a guide.  If they can't see numbers, then they either find them through calculation, or fall back on their own gut feeling.  There is no such thing as an incomparable.

 

He says content is incomparable because they are situational.  But, that is not true because in any situation, content can be compared versus the situation.  In fact, look at Damage 2.0.  Look at elemental mods.  Look at your reflexes and your patience and your tastes.  Compare that to other people's reflexes and patience, and taste.  They are situational but comparable.  Once something is understood, it can be compared, under the relevant circumstance/situation.  Eternally Incomparables are on the level of Chicken Overlords, man.  That's way beyond us mere humans.

 

EC defines the problem of power creep as content that does not progress as fast or far as other content.  The distinction between old and new is secondary at best here.  The main point is obsolescence resulting in wasted investment then resulting in dissatisfaction and abandonment of the game.  The solution is obvious, let content progress at the same rate to the same maximum, objectively, situational or not.  But, expecting to keep players perpetually incapable of distinguishing better from worse is not a sustainable situation.  Sooner or later the hoax is discovered and the price is paid.

 

[Bernkastal]

I actually don't even mind if we have planets with level 45-50 enemies, it feels like challenge at that point.... And drives home the fact by at you are a Tenno. With everything that that implies.

That being said, there should be some sort of plateau in effective dps that does cap play out.... ah well, more balance issues.

[Bobtm]

 Additionaly, while I agree that handicapping yourself isn't the best solution, it is an option, and it is better than having the power we have worked for taken away.

 

Yeah... no, that's just absolutely and totally wrong in every possible way plus three ways that were just invented.

 

The simple matter is that DE is designing a game, but how does that have to do with this?  Meaningful choices, that's what games tend to strive for and it's not an easy thing to create.  I can tell you one truth, you cannot allow clearly overpowered outliers to exist otherwise the choice becomes nil.  It's an oddly common misconception that players make and assume that the removal of these overpowered things is the removal of choice even... which couldn't be further from the truth in the reality of the situation.

 

I'll go ahead and spell this problem out in the simplest way possible.  Continuing the trend of allowing overpowered things to exist always results in at least three major issues;  The impossibility to create balanced and challenging content / The continuation of powercreep which serves to further invalidate old content / The creation of new things which are inferiour to said overpowered item, and thusly are considered pointless by the majority playerbase.

 

Currently in Warframe the third issue I listed is very much the most prevalent, the countless people addicted to their Boltor Primes will invariably begin to tire of utilizing the exact same weapon for an extended period of time and expect something new.  While DE continues to add new and interesting guns, it's clear that they are generally weaker in terms of objectively "obvious" usability.  Of course there are many guns which can even outpreform said Boltor Prime, it's not clear nor is it as easy.  This is because the Boltor Prime is overpowered, it doesn't reward skilled play with high damage, it just spits it out in a very stupid way.

 

If players who are blatantly glued to a clearly overpowered outlier and don't get that new "fix" they will tire of said game and inevitably leave.  Luckily Warframe of course offers a variety of different frames so this seperate vein allows for more flexibility here.  This is why the game can survive for such an extended period of time without nerfing obvious outliers or buffing them when they show up.  Of course these outliers should still be dealt with, but the variety of equippable content lets DE take their time in this area... sometimes a bit too much time **coughstatusmodscough** hmm, excuse me.

 

Of course DE cannot continue to appease that crowd by just one-upping the old weapon as this will invalidate the older content.

 

Games are intended to have challenge, of course every game's respective level of intended challenge varies based upon its target audience but noting various trends does tell us that DE wants us to be at an eventual point where we have to actively think about the foes we face instead of pretty much facerolling them.  The existence of overpowered outliers directly prevents the proper development of these challenges however because it creates a divide amongst the playerbase.  If DE creates content so that it is centered around the use of overpowered gear, non-overpowered gear becomes what is effectively dead weight.

 

Now, contrary to what I call "forum belief" pugs is by far the most common thing which occurs in most every online multiplayer game.  The whole "play with friends and only friends" stuff just doesn't apply to the majority playerbase, it's not valid and doesn't apply.  Basically this relates to the issue above because now a player has choice removed from them.  If they want to actively contribute to the success of a given task they must utilize whatever the current overpowered equipment is, otherwise they will be a detriment to their team's ability.

 

To flip that on its head, let's say a game decides to base these challenges around the more appropriately balanced content.  Then we've got just as much of a problem as above, but just in reverse.  Now as soon as one player joins a crew with overpowered gear they just trivialize the entirety of the content.  Removing all potential difficulty from whatever the tasks were, and invalidating the other players' existences within the game.

 

At the end of the day, balance is a part of proper game design whether you like it or not.  There's a reason cheat codes literally stopped being a thing in current games, it's because they're bad for games in all but a few niche realms of play.  You can't even create a game and expect players to police their own power, because it will never work, in any way, ever.  It's a failed methodology of game design and nothing more, a fallacy held onto by people who don't actually know about how game design works.

 

Edit;  Holy cow there was an odd typo there, I think my brain blew a fuse partway through, anyways it's dead now.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Bobtm

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Self limiting one's power is considered not acceptable, yet, spoiling everybody elses' fun and wasting their money is somehow the right thing to do.  That's like saying that difficulty settings are wrong, which is what a level system is, especially if it's just a magnitude scaling system like in Warframe.  But, somehow screwing people over, yeah, that's totally legit.

 

The fact of the matter is that more Damage Per Second means more Kills Per Second.  It's totally legit game play no matter what extra credits says.  Some people have great fun blasting hordes into pieces and mist at a furious pace, and they'll pay money for it.  So, nerfing that is not game design.  It's just bias and a rip off once money has been spent.

 

I'm waiting to see if this year, DE stops flirting with the disaster and farce that are nerfs, the fighting over the toy box, and make believe game design that passes itself for feedback in these forums, or if they finally design a game for people to play and enjoy, and invest in.

 

And what will that game be once and for all?  Will it be for people with fast reaction speeds or slow reaction speeds?  For people who want to watch paint dry or for fast visceral furious action? 

 

These are not mythical qualities.  Human Reaction Speed and Attention Span are well studied.  There are averages, minimums, and maximums for them.   It shouldn't be impossible to design a mechanism where a player can push themselves to the limits of their reactions and attention.  After all, it's some of what experimental and cognitive psychology does all day.  Mental Chronometry.

Look, you're complaining we're out to spoil your fun. Did you ever think that we don't want to wait 65 minutes to reach a point where the game is sufficiently challenging from a weapon usage perspective? Or that maybe we want to see different enemies, but because we'd drop them in seconds (unless they have huge shields, stacking damage reduction, and other things that only exist to slow us down) it's just not worth it?

Also, you assume your playstyle is the "correct" one. Yet for newer players, fighting enemies is much slower more similar to how many others imagine it, suggesting this is where DE wants it. Even if that's not why, the fact that they're acnowledging they need to change things, and throwing enemies like Nullifiers and Ancient Healers at us, suggests they disagree with you.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Finally someone that gets it, +1

We put in time just to get more powerful/better on every game ever...

You should post more ! to balance out those nerf cryer nerds.

Stop slinging mud. It's okay to disagree about what we believe is the correct direction for the game, but don't act like you're saving the world from us, the people "crying" about how we want a more balanced game. Edited January 15, 2015 by (PS4)WiiConquered

[Neothel]

DE balances around the Starmap levels, not endless missions types.

If DE balances around Starmap, why is there a Heavy Caliber? Or Blind Rage? Or Fleeting Expertise, Maim, Breach Loader, Piercing Caliber, Transient Fortitude and lately Primed Continuity, Primed Flow, Primed Point Blank and Primed Heavy Trauma?

 

Besides that, you don´t need limit yourself. Just don´t forma all weapons 5 Times or Maybe take one of that Mid / Low Tier Weapons.

Seriously the whole game is about getting stronger and after everyone is strong, everyone seems to want the exact opposite. I don´t get it.

 

First i (and all the other players too) need to farm for Mods an credits to level all the Mods up, and then everything should go to hell?

 

And if DE themself thinks Powercreep is a problem, why on Earth are they releasing Mods like Primed Point Blank, Maim or Piercing Caliber? It doesn´t make really sense then. If they really think so, they should stop right now and balance. Otherwise its going worse and worse.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Thelematiker

[Aspari]

If DE balances around Starmap, why is there a Heavy Caliber? Or Blind Rage? Or Fleeting Expertise, Maim, Breach Loader, Piercing Caliber, Transient Fortitude and lately Primed Continuity, Primed Flow, Primed Point Blank and Primed Heavy Trauma?

 

Besides that, you don´t need limit yourself. Just don´t forma all weapons 5 Times or Maybe take one of that Mid / Low Tier Weapons.

Seriously the whole game is about getting stronger and after everyone is strong, everyone seems to want the exact opposite. I don´t get it.

 

First i (and all the other players too) need to farm for Mods an credits to level all the Mods up, and then everything should go to hell?

 

And if DE themself thinks Powercreep is a problem, why on Earth are they releasing Mods like Primed Point Blank, Maim or Piercing Caliber?

It doesn´t make really sense then. If they really think so, they should stop right now and balance. Otherwise its going worse and worse.

There are things called "mistakes."

[ZayTM]

Power creep isn't just "stuff is powerful", power creep is "new stuff is better than old stuff". And it IS a problem, because it means that DE will have to scale up enemies further and add new enemies to compensate (cough cough nullifiers) which INVALIDATES older weapons.

Power creep KILLS build diversity because ONLY the newest gear is really viable. Older weapons like the flux rifle, the supra, and the original boltor are perfect examples of weapons that have been power crept out of existence. Even the original soma, once hailed as the most powerful weapon in the game, has been rendered irrelevant because of soma prime.

[Neothel]

There are things called "mistakes."

If it was a mistake they should have stopped with Blind Rage and Heavy Caliber.

Its like: Sry, we made a mistake: Here take Transient Fortitude and Piercing Caliber! (as one example from many)

 

Its like i said, if they really think so. They should stop right now releasing Mods making us or our weapons more powerful.

[ThePresident777]

Power Creep is a misnomer.  It should really be called Obsolescence because that is the main point of it.

 

The phrase Power Creep could be used to disparage the case where weapon tiers are added or max DPS is increased.  If a person thought that the max DPS or the top tier was too much and growing then they could call it Power Creep, instead of something neutral like Power Expansion.  It wouldn't involve obsolescence of weapons but over all power would be increasing.

 

But, extra credits is a consultant so he has to advertise himself to silly developers so he says silly things.

[vaugahn]

The phrase Power Creep could be used to disparage the case where weapon tiers are added or max DPS is increased.  If a person thought that the max DPS or the top tier was too much and growing then they could call it Power Creep, instead of something neutral like Power Expansion.  It wouldn't involve obsolescence of weapons but over all power would be increasing.

 

False.

 

Power Expansion is when you've moved up from level 20 enemies to level 30 enemies, so you get a stronger gun. Power Creep is when you're still on level 20 enemies but you get a stronger gun anyways because the developers just decided whatever. 

 

See the difference? See the potential ramifications?

[ThePresident777]

Power Expansion is when power expands.  Power Creep is when power creeps.  That is how the English language works.  Phrases have the mean given to them by their constituent words.  Not arbitrarily, because, English is a language, a systematic form of communication, not free form sound.

[vaugahn]

Power Expansion is when power expands.  Power Creep is when power creeps.  That is how the English language works.  Phrases have the mean given to them by their constituent words.  Not arbitrarily, because, English is a language, a systematic form of communication, not free form sound.

 

So...metaphors, analogies, and similes don't exist then? It's possible to associate meaning to a phrase independent of the words that make up the phrase. 

 

Let's not debate semantics. It makes your position look weak.

[Stratego89]

If DE balances around Starmap, why is there a Heavy Caliber? Or Blind Rage? Or Fleeting Expertise, Maim, Breach Loader, Piercing Caliber, Transient Fortitude and lately Primed Continuity, Primed Flow, Primed Point Blank and Primed Heavy Trauma?

 

Besides that, you don´t need limit yourself. Just don´t forma all weapons 5 Times or Maybe take one of that Mid / Low Tier Weapons.

Seriously the whole game is about getting stronger and after everyone is strong, everyone seems to want the exact opposite. I don´t get it.

 

First i (and all the other players too) need to farm for Mods an credits to level all the Mods up, and then everything should go to hell?

 

And if DE themself thinks Powercreep is a problem, why on Earth are they releasing Mods like Primed Point Blank, Maim or Piercing Caliber? It doesn´t make really sense then. If they really think so, they should stop right now and balance. Otherwise its going worse and worse.

They balance the BASE WEAPON STATS around the starmap, not the mods...

[Neothel]

They balance the BASE WEAPON STATS around the starmap, not the mods...

But that doesn´t work when there are MODS that make the weapons (or Frames) better.

And if they balance the Base weapon Stats around the Starmap you would get into massive trouble when you´re going to Ceres / Pluto with most of the "High Tier" Weapons without mods. And even without Mods. I can´t really see balance. The difference in the Base stats are minimal for most weapons.

 

It was balanced (more or less) before Heavy Caliber, Blind Rage etc., etc.

Then people where crying because weapons and Frames didn´t enough damage. DE solved that with Damage 2.0 and releasing those Mods.

Now people are crying because they do too much damage.

 

All that Power Creep problem is coming from the players itself.

Demanding more damage or only carrying the best weapons into missions.

 

I´m overpowered if I´m running on Earth, Venus or Jupiter.

I don´t feel that overpowered when I´m on Europa, Uranus, Sedna (maybe a little bit) or Ceres / Pluto.

 

As long Planets have different "Level", there will always someone who is overpowered because that person is playing missions with "High Level" Gear. Thats the same like now. I nearly get no Lobbies on Ceres, Pluto or Eris). Since they changed the Level on that planets its even worse.

(ok, to be honest I have problems to get Lobbies on all Planets past Level 20)

 

But i get nearly always a Lobby on Saturn, Earth, Venus.

And thats really irritating if people saying theres to much Powercreep.

 

Sure a lot of People are really strong now, because they have all mods and also nearly all maxed.

But the most of us are already playing for 1-2 Years (and more). So i think its ok, that we are strong.

 

The easiest way is to make a conclave cap on the planets.

And not an overall conclave. One Conclave Rating for Frames, one for Primary, one for Secondary, one for Melee and one for Companions.

[ThePresident777]

Ockham's Razor:  among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected. Other, more complicated solutions may ultimately prove correct, but—in the absence of certainty—the fewer assumptions that are made, the better.

 

There is no sense in calling something Power Creep, when Power Expansion has the fewest assumptions.  There is no sense in calling something Power Expansion when Obsolescence has the fewest assumptions.

 

The majority of the Warframe weapons are mastery fodder, in other words, throw away content, content not worth investing in, obsolete.  Power Expansion, or Power Creep, produces weapon Obsolescence in the absence of a progression mechanism that allows all weapons to reach the same maximum effectiveness.  Obsolescence in weapons occurs when only some weapons are maximally effective, when the maximum weapon power expands or creeps unequally.  When maximum weapon power expands or creeps to the same maximum for all weapons then weapon obsolescence does not happen.

Edited January 16, 2015 by ThePresident777

[climatiseur]

OP, lets invent some always instant AOE kill weapons and abilities, then you can go up to trillion level of survival or any other endless missions to feel your power and also make the game finally balanced in your very logical sense  :D !

[(PSN)KaxMcc]

DE "can't win" (in quotes because they are making money) because they keep trying to thread player base fractures that can't be threaded.  It's not possible to create content that is suitable for both people who have fast reaction speeds and those who do not, for people who have long attention spans and those who do not, for people who want to see chunks and mist rain non-stop and those who do not, for people who want Dark Souls and those who want Space Ninja, for people and for "balance", and other mutually exclusive options.  If it's possible, then, fine, show the proof.  But, that is the issue here as I explained on the first page and tons of other posts.  It's not over powered, or under powered, or balanced, or unbalanced, or incomparables or other bull S#&$.  It's about comparables such as reaction speed, attention span, etc.

 

Let's analyze that Extra Credits: Power Creep video.  EC, presents a problem: new player content being objectively superior to old player content therefore making old content obsolete and their investment wasted.  EC's solution is to make it incomparable, not comparable.  That is entirely idiotic.  It's not possible for players to not compare things.  First of all they have themselves as a reference.  Either players are entertained or they are not.  In which case, they leave what does not entertain them and go to what does entertain them.  Cosmetics are a perfect example of this.  If they can see numbers, then, they take the numbers as a guide.  If they can't see numbers, then they either find them through calculation, or fall back on their own gut feeling.  There is no such thing as an incomparable.

 

He says content is incomparable because they are situational.  But, that is not true because in any situation, content can be compared versus the situation.  In fact, look at Damage 2.0.  Look at elemental mods.  Look at your reflexes and your patience and your tastes.  Compare that to other people's reflexes and patience, and taste.  They are situational but comparable.  Once something is understood, it can be compared, under the relevant circumstance/situation.  Eternally Incomparables are on the level of Chicken Overlords, man.  That's way beyond us mere humans.

 

EC defines the problem of power creep as content that does not progress as fast or far as other content.  The distinction between old and new is secondary at best here.  The main point is obsolescence resulting in wasted investment then resulting in dissatisfaction and abandonment of the game.  The solution is obvious, let content progress at the same rate to the same maximum, objectively, situational or not.  But, expecting to keep players perpetually incapable of distinguishing better from worse is not a sustainable situation.  Sooner or later the hoax is discovered and the price is paid.

 

You have completely misinterpreted what he was saying. Incomprables are elements that are dependant on preference rather than objective superiority. There are tons of examples in tons of games of incomprables being used to offer variety in the absence of power scaling. Any element added to a game that isn't objectively superior to another could be considered an incomporable element. Classes in any rpg, Gun/Equipment selections in games like CoD and Battlefield, Styles in DmC3, Characters in fighting games, Weapon types in Monster hunter, etc.

 

The key isn't to make elements that can't be compared. It's to make elements that are chosen based on prefrence rather than number crunching.

Edited January 16, 2015 by (PS4)KaxMcc

[(XBOX)ShapelessHorr0r]

Handicapping yourself is not a solution. It never is and it never will be.

Exactly

The fact if the matter is that players, who are human, will strive to better themselves in every possible way. Why else are their stupid pre-order bonuses that give you better gear at the beggining. Why else is the idea of vertical progression so prevailent in video games?

The simple fact is that you cannot expect human beings to go against their base instincts, so, in game design, you must herd the nasty beasts.

By this, I mean you force players into a set if rules. They're completely welcome to choose the rule set, but players must be forced into something that restricts them. Many of you will recoil in horror, but some very good video games have been created with this philosophy.

For example, the recent release of Shadow of Mordor details the need for stealth rather than a want. Through the nemesis system, players must be very stealthy and must do planning in order to take out a target without alerting a horde of orcs. This is especially prominent since these targets tend to take a while to kill comparitevely and having an army staring you down won't help.

Another example is Team Fotress 2. Each class can rarely, if ever, do what another one does. In this way, players are forced to play to their class's strengths in order to win. If they do not play to these strengths, they will fail, easily.

And lastly, one that hits home, Warframe forces players to interact with others. Let's face it. Unless you're completely decked out, you're going to need some help on a lot if missions. This interaction has led to a thriving community.

So let's review and answer the big question: why do these rule sets matter?

These rule sets, be it classes; playstyles; or simply your chum from down the block, allow players to always be striving for better. Regardless of what actually happens, players are always trying to defeat the rule sets, but they never will as the rule sets will simply keep up with them (mush like how enemies scale).

This solves the fundamental issue in that players don't have to worry about creating a challenge when there will always be one present.

Cheers,

Shapeless

[ThePresident777]

OK, new rule:  all weapons can be maximized to the same maximum standard instead of the current system where every weapon has a different level of effectiveness.

Edited January 16, 2015 by ThePresident777

[(PSN)KinslayersDawn]

I appreciate the Tenno who have taken the time to understand what I am trying to say here.

Firstly, I am not asking for people to handicap themselves to balance the game. I am simply saying that if you want a challenge on low level start chart, that is what you are going to have to do. DE can't balance around the star chart, and still make high level Void missions possible. The power we need for high level Void is of course going to make you overpowered on low level missions. At that point, why are you doing low level missions anymore?

Next, to people who are arguing that Prime weapons are more powerful than their normal versions, and that this is the same as power creep... Of course they are more powerful! They have to be either heavily farmed, or purchased for cold hard cash. Can you imagine how pissed of people would have been to do the work for a Boltor Prime or Burston Prime, only for them to have no statistical advantage over the blueprints you can buy from the market? Let's be honest with ourselves: if the only reason to go after Prime weapons was cosmetic, there would be a lot less platinum changing hands on the trading forums.

Lastly, to those who argue that the game shouldn't be balanced toward the top tiers, you are mistaken. This is the whole point of MMO games like Warframe: to work towards the endgame. Can you think of any MMO, or any game for that matter, where the power or skill needed for endgame content doesn't make you overpowered for much of the rest of the content? The whole point of a game like this is to push yourself towards more power, to take on more powerful missions. If you don't want to play that way, I have no problem with that, but don't ask for everything to be nerfed because you feel to powerful.

Now I am not saying things are perfect, far from it. But power creep is not the problem, nor is nerfing the solution. The problem is that the star chart is not balanced to the Void. There is a very gradual difficultly curve in the star chart and early Void, that ramps up drastically in endgame Void. What this means is that of your heart is optimized for late game Void, everything else is a joke. This is a problem with enemy scaling, not power creep. We need a difficulty curve that increases in proportion to our power. Now of we are arguing for a difficulty scaling that grows in addition to our power, I am all about that. Way back in Final Fantasy 8, they had a system that raised enemy level as your went up. Why not just implement a system wherein as our conclave rating gets better, so do enemies?

[manub]

the problem is not power creep, everyone wants to be powerful after all

the problem is the vast disparity of power between weapons, which make some way more viable for high lvl content, & some not nearly usable

[rockscl]

I think tactical alerts are a smart solution to power creep vs enjoyable gameplay, cold revenge was very fun at least for me

Edited January 16, 2015 by rockscl