Power Creep Is Not An Issue: Please Read, De.

[(PSN)KinslayersDawn]

False.

 

Power Expansion is when you've moved up from level 20 enemies to level 30 enemies, so you get a stronger gun. Power Creep is when you're still on level 20 enemies but you get a stronger gun anyways because the developers just decided whatever. 

 

See the difference? See the potential ramifications?

So move to higher level areas. The potential ramifications amount to either staying in a low level area, and abusing lower level enemies with powerful gear, or moving to an appropriate area. I don't know if that really counts as ramifications, as much as basic logic. Just because you can stay in low level areas doesn't mean you won't be unbalanced if you do. Why is this so hard to understand?

[rockscl]

So move to higher level areas. The potential ramifications amount to either staying in a low level area, and abusing lower level enemies with powerful gear, or moving to an appropriate area. I don't know if that really counts as ramifications, as much as basic logic. Just because you can stay in low level areas doesn't mean you won't be unbalanced if you do. Why is this so hard to understand?

 

The depth of the problem in power creep isnt easy to see, this guy explains it

 

[ThePresident777]

The only way to know that a game element is not objectively superior to another is to compare it.  Therefore, it is not incomparable.  For example, if mission success required the application of fire then it's easy to compare all primary weapons and see that only Ignis satisfies the mission success criteria among primary weapons, that it is objectively superior to all other primary weapons for that mission.  Because, some fire damage compared to no fire damage is objectively superior in that context, for that purpose.  In other words, Ignis is Fit For Purpose in that case and other primary weapons are objectively not Fit For Purpose in that case.

 

So, to have more variety in games, games need more purposes, not just more tools for the same purpose, not magical thinking such as incomparables.

 

Having 160+ weapons all of which have the sole purpose of doing the same exact thing at various levels of effectiveness is wasteful.  The majority of them are obsolete, not worth investing in.

Edited January 16, 2015 by ThePresident777

[(PSN)KinslayersDawn]

And I will say again, what game out there doesn't have endgame level weapons that make low level enemies die real quick?

[Bobtm]

And I will say again, what game out there doesn't have endgame level weapons that make low level enemies die real quick?

 

You're operating under the false assumption that Warframe is a standard "archetype" MMORPG of some sort, when in fact it is not.  In those games it is okay to have weapons which continually one-up one another over time to some degree as that is specifically how their level progression works, however this falls apart in a game like Warframe.

 

Here, the different weapons are actually different.  This is the important thing here as in the more normal MMORPGs weapons are legitimately nothing more than aesthetically diverse stat sticks.  In those games the player's gameplay is largely unchanged by changing weaponry.  Well why don't you tell me how much different it is to play with a Lato or Viper than it is with a Marelok or Synnoid Gammacore.

 

While Warframe still has progression, having that progression more inherently tied to mods than weapons is a more appropriate approach as it allows the possibility of weapons to actually be more in-line with one another to a degree.  Seeing as the majority of our stats can come from another realm.

 

Making one weapon arbitrarily stronger because reasons is not a good move, that's about the simplest form of it.

[DrBorris]

The problem with power creep is not as much that it makes things easy as it is that it completely invalidates certain play styles. Warframe is about playing the way you want, but power creep limits your weapon selection to only the top of the heap. And once more power creep occurs, those weapons are useless.

 

However, Power Creep can be beneficial to Warframe IF all playstyles are equal. That is just the surface, read this. If you want power creep, difficulty needs to be able to keep pace with it. Right now, Power Creep is very bad. It goes against the principle of Warframe where you are supposed to play how you want and specialize for specific enemies. 

[Otakuwolf]

The problem comes when you don't want to feel overpowered BUT other people do it for you.

 

For example, i don't like ult spamming, i hardly use that kind of ability, however i see a lot of people spamming those so am i just supposed to bore the hell out of myself and accept people oneshooting entire rooms balantaly enjoying theyr OP-ness when i want something "different" (and don't come to tellme "play with friends" or "play solo" because friends aren't always online and always available to play WF and some missions cannot be played solo for more than 5 mins) ?

 

The problem that i'm trying to explain is, not everyone enjoy the same playstyle, being it about OP or non OP, so the game has to find a proper "compromise" which most of the people could get along with in a way or another.

[Mizar0011]

Here's my thing. If there was no way to improve yourself after Pluto. Actually let's change this. I played swtor when it first came out. I got my marauder to level 55 or whatever was Max. I had pretty much the best gear. Things could have been better but it was close enough.... And I said whelp.... That's it then and stopped paying and playing and haven't gone back. The only way to keep people playing a game after reaching the end is to either add increasing challenges and hear suited to it (mastery locked and hard to farm in this case etc.) Or add mite things to do in this game that gives you objectives besides just kill everything. Something else to actively do in this game.

Personally I think things are fine but lock better weapons behind mastery and create new endless rotations. So to get a bolt or prime you need to not only be mastery 7 or whatever but also reach 40 minutes on t4s so you got to rotation H. Etc. Make it so you need to build use and mod lower level gear to get the higher level gear to get the higher level gear etc. Etc. Etc. And yeah when you step on Pluto you will destroy it.... So what? By the time I hit Jupiter I destroyed mercury unless I went to an endless mission.... So balance power creep up Jupiter.... Make it so warframes and weapons can only reach level 20. But now Pluto is too hard OK scale down enemies on all planets now i hit Pluto at level 20 and I play on Jupiter. Well now I wreck everything. So need to Nerf the overpowered stuff. Now weapons and warframes can only go to level 15. You end up with planets ranging from level 1-5 and weapons and warframes can't have levels. Or you lock things behind mastery for playing with different weapons and warframes and make them harder to get because you need to use your weaker stuff to get to 40 minutes to make your stronger stuff to get to 60 minutes. I don't feel like I really made my point well but basically. Nerf the level 90's (out whatever is max) in world of Warcraft because they're too OP when they leave their area and come to the level 30 area -_-

[(PSN)KaxMcc]

Man y'all are talking in circles

 

the problem is not power creep, everyone wants to be powerful after all

the problem is the vast disparity of power between weapons, which make some way more viable for high lvl content, & some not nearly usable

 

The problem you are bringing up is a DIRECT result of power creep.

 

Power creep is the act of new content being added to a game that makes previous content obsolete. Please note that the need to upgrade weapons as the game goes on( by either making a new weapon or modifying the current one) is not power creep, High DPS weapons are not power creep, High damage abilites are not power creep. What makes new additions power creep is the lack of balance with the content currently provided in the game.

 

Power creep is when you have an assult rifle that is tailored to fight against level 20 enemies and then the dev releases another assault rifle that is essentially the same but with more damage or even more utility. It makes the first rifle obsolete so that the only reason to even use one is to get mastery. That's where the term "mastery fodder" came from. It highlighted all of the useless weapons that exist now in warframe that is, in part, due to power creep.

 

 

The only way to know that a game element is not objectively superior to another is to compare it.  Therefore, it is not incomparable.  For example, if mission success required the application of fire then it's easy to compare all primary weapons and see that only Ignis satisfies the mission success criteria among primary weapons, that it is objectively superior to all other primary weapons for that mission.  Because, some fire damage compared to no fire damage is objectively superior in that context, for that purpose.  In other words, Ignis is Fit For Purpose in that case and other primary weapons are objectively not Fit For Purpose in that case.

 

So, to have more variety in games, games need more purposes, not just more tools for the same purpose, not magical thinking such as incomparables.

 

Having 160+ weapons all of which have the sole purpose of doing the same exact thing at various levels of effectiveness is wasteful.  The majority of them are obsolete, not worth investing in.

 

You are focusing way too much on the word "incomprable". You are also misunderstanding the meaning behind the word in the context in which he is usng it. EC is not using the word "incomprable" as an adjective to mean " a thing which can not be compared". He is using the word "incomprables" as a noun to mean "elements of balance that rely on subjective comparison instead of objective comparison".

 

It's the difference between choosing between an assult class or a recon in Battlefield. They both serve specific purposes and neither is objectively better than another in general. They may be considered objectively better on a situational basis but since the moment to moment gameplay forces players into a wide variety of situations neither will make the other obsolete. They instead cater to different play styles and help to balance the game so that one unit relies on another to round out effectiveness.

 

Based on your suggestions you seem to agree that there is an overall balance issue with the game. All the people advocating against power creep are trying to do is prevent future additions from unbalancing prior content.

Edited January 17, 2015 by (PS4)KaxMcc

[-SLX-J3tAc3]

So I have heard people lately, and now even the devs, worry about power creep. That is, people are concerned that some weapons are becoming too powerful. As I see it, this is just ridiculous. Before anyone gets upset, hear me out. Also, I hope DE is listening.

Firstly, I can promise you that if you feel your weapons are overpowered, it has more to do with where you are. It is the same thing I said long ago when people were complaining about powers being overpowered. If you feel overpowered, you are probably on to low a level. Warframe is designed with numerous levels that scale infinitely. I promise you, of you stay long enough into a T4 Endless mission of any kind, you won't feel overpowered. Challenge yourself with more difficult enemies.

Secondly, Warframe allows complete customization of almost every aspect of your suit and weapons. If you think you are too powerful, take off some of your augments. Why would you ask the devs to handicap you, when it is completely under your own control exactly how much power you carry into a mission? You can set yourself up for a challenge whenever you like, along the same vein as the Tactical Alerts. You always control your own power.

And lastly, what is wrong with being overpowered? I have put a massive amount of effort into building and rweapons and powerful weapons and suits. I play games to become good, and become powerful. It is a fantasy setting, and I want to become as powerful as possible. I want to see my skill and my power leave the enemies farther and farther behind. What is the point of all the work if it doesn't lead to more powerful. If I want a challenge, I will leave something unequipped, or go after a new, challenging enemy or mission, and I thank DE for always evolving these things.

In the end, I still have to say, why are we asking the devs to handicap our power, when we are always in control of it ourselves. Let's handle our own power, Tenno!

+1 to horse sense.

[Im_All_In]

My 6 formaed amprex with radiation deals 200 damage to a bombard,+1 in a post for the first time

Edited: bombard- 80min T4 surv

Edited January 17, 2015 by dinhphucanh1

[(XBOX)MAXsandwich]

The problem isn't that we are getting too powerful, it is that damage far outscales tankiness. Any mid-tier weapon will make killing level 40 enemies a joke and any high-tier weapon will make killing level 60 enemies a joke, but even at level 40 most frames start getting downed nearly instantly.

As long as we are oneshotting with automatic rifles the only way DE can add challenge is by stopping us from killing entirely, such as the Mutalist Moa with all their CC or the Nullifiers with their shields. DE can't make interesting enemies because the only way to stop them from dying the moment they walk in the room is for the player to be locked down constantly.

 

I wouldn't ask for power to be handicapped, I would ask for all systems to be balanced at once.

Pretty much this.

[Aspari]

The problem isn't that we are getting too powerful, it is that damage far outscales tankiness. Any mid-tier weapon will make killing level 40 enemies a joke and any high-tier weapon will make killing level 60 enemies a joke, but even at level 40 most frames start getting downed nearly instantly.

As long as we are oneshotting with automatic rifles the only way DE can add challenge is by stopping us from killing entirely, such as the Mutalist Moa with all their CC or the Nullifiers with their shields. DE can't make interesting enemies because the only way to stop them from dying the moment they walk in the room is for the player to be locked down constantly.

 

I wouldn't ask for power to be handicapped, I would ask for all systems to be balanced at once.

Seconded. 

[(XBOX)ShapelessHorr0r]

And I will say again, what game out there doesn't have endgame level weapons that make low level enemies die real quick?

What game has endgame weapons that destroy endgame enemies?

Heck, what game has mid tier weapons that trump endgame enemies?

Welcome to Warframe.

It's not a huge issue. "Power fantasies" are specifically designed with this in mind.

It simply begs the question: what is Warframe meant to be?

[Yazeth]

What game has endgame weapons that destroy endgame enemies?

Heck, what game has mid tier weapons that trump endgame enemies?

Welcome to Warframe.

It's not a huge issue. "Power fantasies" are specifically designed with this in mind.

It simply begs the question: what is Warframe meant to be?

I completely agree with that statement. :)

[SandwitchPrime]

weapon balance is a joke, they weren't supposed to be balanced

warframe balance on the other hand, shouldn't be focused on nerfing the strong ones, instead buff the weaker ones

[vaugahn]

warframe balance on the other hand, shouldn't be focused on nerfing the strong ones, instead buff the weaker ones

 

Yes and no. You've got to be very careful with something like that. It should be done on a case by case basis, as some strong things need nerfs and some weak things need buffs.

 

Also yes, weapons are supposed to be balanced.

[(PSN)Zeylon]

They need weapons balanced across the spectrum, at the same time as warframes themselves, with enemy strength (TTK and damage output) taken into perspective at the same time.

 

Weapons aren't balanced, that's true.  However, the problem is too large to be fixed by tweaking the stats on the Boltor/Soma Prime or what-have-you.

[-Eanraig-]

Scaling and balancing is a problem with all MMOs that rely on 'the bigger the number, the better'. Higher levels don't make enemy AI more complex, they just increase its health and makes its attacks deadlier. Same with weapons, better guns simply have higher stat values, more deeps. This is more noticeable in Warframe since it has endless missions and no real endgame like raids or a decent PvP, and clan events are still at their infancy. So you see a bunch of MR12+ with their Soma Primes and Synoid Gammacors destroying mobs on lower levels farming for tower keys or resources. There's no real separation between the newfriend and the seasoned player.