"secretly" Buffed Augments

[Azawarau]

With Mesa there's no real trade-offs.  I have modded for max efficiency/strength and also have 15+ seconds 2 and 3.  The only thing that suffers is the disarm range on 2, which is arguably a good thing as it will only target enemies that get close.

^

 

I run min range for this

[geninrising]

Someone tell HoleyPaladin so he can STFU already.

This!

[quietcanary]

Good points. I guess it's more noticeable to see the bad players who mod Mesa and Mirage for pure strength and efficiency, and even Oberon and Saryn to become nothing but nukes. I guess the situation varies on a per-player basis.

I understand what you meant by this but that comment isn't fair. Saryn best build is power strength+/duration- with some added health tank. On mesa and Mirage strength is the primary stat with duration beING third if you count power efficiency. Oberon might have duration as secondary stat if you like renewal infinite energy health build enough but it's still not fair to insult everyone using pure powER strength builds when you really just mean to insult p42win dudes.

Edited January 17, 2015 by quietcanary

[MechaKnight]

I understand what you meant by this but that comment isn't fair. Saryn best build is power strength+/duration- with some added health tank. On mesa and Mirage strength is the primary stat with duration beING third if you count power efficiency. Oberon might have duration as secondary stat if you like renewal infinite energy health build enough but it's still not fair to insult everyone using pure powER strength builds when you really just mean to insult p42win dudes.

As a player who has played on Saryn for about 400 hours worth of in-mission game time, I am understandably irritated by the subject of "Press 4 to win." As much as I would like to be a smart and savvy player for seeing all the worth in all of her abilities, clearly the playerbase seems to agree that trashing 3 of her abilities and both of her augments is the best way to play this warframe, which is effectively saying that my desire to play skillfully with variety makes me a bad player, while those who prefer to pace around and press a single button are considered good players. Clearly, the way abilities and energy works is backwards.

Yes I'm aware Miasma is backwards too. Still only one ability though.

 

For Mirage, it goes either way. Players could mod for duration or efficiency in either direction to preference. Although Mirage has decently high duration, the player choice to put efficiency in higher priority seems to imply that Mirage's enhanced gunplay somehow takes a backseat to her Prism occasionally. Depending on the player, it does.

 

Mesa is a very interesting experiment by developers, very clever. The first ability is a decent cheap damage skill. The second is crowd control, with teamwork involved. The third is personal safety. The fourth is pure sustained damage, without crowd control. The fact that strength and efficiency to use Peacemaker is generally regarded as more important than personal safety or sustained crowd control seems to imply that raw damage takes priority over safety and team safety. Additionally, the lack of word for Ballistic Battery cements the suspicion that players don't tend to toss out energy in small chunks when there is a much more valuable ability to save towards.

 

Oberon's scaling with duration is on three of his abilities, but two of them can work decently well even ignoring this fact. Hallowed Ground is certainly lost, but Renewal operates on reduced effectiveness, and the radiation status from Reckoning may be more reliable than the blind given how much duration it requires.

 

The fact that gameplay tends to shape itself in this manner does imply that the state of the game leans towards "Press 4 to win", but I'm not really sure if developers or players can be blamed exclusively. What we can note is the result.

 

 

Whatever they decide to do with straight-up damage mods (like Serration), it will definitely incorporate a healthy look at how damage scales and how enemies scale so as not to have changes break the current system.  I'm all for a removal of Serration and stacking base damage increases on rank, but they haven't set anything in stone just yet.

 

 

As for the rest of our little back and forth, most of us are just miffed at the fact that it has gotten so out of hand.  I think the biggest culprit is the augments that allow skills to do extra damage.  I didn't beef my xcal's damage at all and I was in a Draco PUG with some Oberon who used the Smite Infusion augment.  Man I could wail on their junk like no tomorrow.  We got up to round 4 and stopped at the key but we could have kept going.  There was no signs of a slowdown.

 

I think its safe to say that DE should balance the damage output around what they consider to be balanced content.  If they want decked-out frames to be able to nuke rooms until level 40, they're going to have to consider balancing content beyond that point.  The simple fact that your can press a button and clear everything demands that players seek a greater challenge for greater rewards.  And they do.  But they seek it in what isn't considered balanced content.

 

 

The team synergy augments are neither a problem nor are they necessary--this kind of killing spree was possible before syndicate mods. I can stack three power strength mods alongside Corrosive Projection to gain the desired effect. What's really the problem is the amount of damage enemies can take before they die versus the amount we can dish out, as well as how we dish out damage.

 

We can gain a level of power on our weapons and abilities most things in the solar system are not able to handle. Let's look at a few quickly thrown together builds to understand the problem.

 

Experiment Section

 

The Weapon Conundrum

Balance between new players, old players, and the effect of base damage + multishot

I will only be comparing burst DPS

 

Mk-1 Braton with no mods: http://goo.gl/TVJdVx ; 140.40

Mk-1 Braton with ideal mods: http://goo.gl/ay8UlQ ; 8442.60

Mk-1 Braton missing base damage and multishot mods: http://goo.gl/1S1y4N ; 1033.44

Boltor Prime with no mods: http://goo.gl/pqtu05 ; 577.60

Boltor Prime with ideal mods: http://goo.gl/aQlOYw ; 34725.60

Boltor Prime missing base damage and multishot mods: http://goo.gl/kIRuK4 ; 4250.56

 

I only used the Boltor Prime as an example of a decent "end game" weapon that mods similarly to the Mk-1 Braton. It is by no means the best or worst example, simply the easiest to translate. I made three builds for each: no mods, ideal mods, and the same "ideal" set, with the core cookie cutter mods removed.

 

The result: the full kit of mods we can apply to a generic non-crit damage gun will multiply damage output by 60x. However, if the base damage and multishot mods were removed as developers were intending--being cookie-cutter mods with no variety--the damage multiple would only be increased 7x. Clearly, our mods are an amazing factor in the damage dealt between players using the same weapon. As for "bad gun" compared to "good gun", the Boltor Prime is 4x better in dealing burst DPS than the Mk-1 Braton. Overall, when comparing a min-maxed Boltor Prime to a new Mk-1 Braton, experienced players tend to deal around 247x as much damage as a fresh beginner.

 

Despite being a shooter game, Warframe balances like an MMO. The trouble with Warframe is, while MMOs tend to separate players heavily across different world regions and only entice them back to farm craft materials they could buy from other players on the market, Warframe throws all kinds of players together into alerts and missions. The solar system has some sort of separation, but it can easily be defeated by taxi'ing players past it all. Alerts also host a wide range of players, and are also susceptible to the taxi. This means Warframe has to struggle to accommodate so many ranges of player strength per mission. In general, it just means letting highly powered veterans stomp content without any difficulty+reward scaling.

 

Radial Conundrum

For our nuke ability, I will propose Excalibur's Radial Javelin. One calculation with Overextended, and one without. Both are assumed to use Stretch.  I will apply Intensify, Transient Fortitude, and Blind Rage rank 2 into the calculation. Unless specified, assume all mods are maxed.

The below are simply damage calculations. I will also use the radial circular area expression area = pi*r^2 to give an idea of the relative theoretical killing capacity of each configuration. This area will be multiplied by damage.

 

With Overextended: 1520 damage in 58.75 meters ; 16.48 million damage capacity

Without: 2120 damage in 36.25 meters ; 8.75 million damage capacity

 

It's a no-brainer that despite the damage disadvantage given by Overextended, it's practically an auto-include into nuke builds because it increases damage potential by nearly double. This is simply because range is an exponentially important component to a nuke. The damage is secondary. There's currently no penalty for spamming radials through walls with infinite punchthrough.

 

 

Enemy Durability

For our test subject, I will propose a Grineer Bombard unit. It will start at level 40.

 

I will calculate its stats using this figure: http://imgur.com/gt3Tjc0

 

Health: 5832

Armor: 1322.72

 

Using the equation here http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Armor

Effective health = nominal health * ( 1 + net armor / 300 )

 

Effective Health: 31545.68

 

The below comparisons are not factoring Damage 2.0 modifiers.

 

At maximum effective health, the heavy unit would not even last against one whole second of damage from an optimized Boltor Prime. This "high level" enemy is fodder to us veterans.

 

The same Bombard would last less than 4 seconds against a maximized Mk-1 Braton. It goes in line that the Boltor Prime is 4 times as good as the Mk-1 Braton. The enemy is still barely noticeable though, and this is a heavy unit of a level you'd find on planet Ceres.

 

Against an unmodded Boltor Prime, said enemy would last 64.6 seconds. Far too long. However, just removing the base damage and multishot from the ideal build, the enemy would last against gunfire for 7.4 seconds. Maybe the developers have a point about Serration and Split Chamber. This is long enough to experience the enemy. Maybe even long enough to see it do something. The Mk-1 Braton would probably take 4 times longer to be around 30 seconds of shooting. Pretty long time. In general, new player weapons are perhaps too weak compared to the usual weapons. I mean, the Lato is terrible. Perhaps alongside the mod and damage tweaks, bad weapons can be brought within a closer margin of good weapons. So I don't need to feel like I've betrayed someone every time I try to invite a friend to this game.

 

Now for abilities. Let's assume Overextended is being used on the Radial Javelin build I mentioned.

Since the enemy at level 40 has an EHP of 31.5k, it would take quite a few Radial Javelins to down it. Twenty one of them. That doesn't seem like the "Press 4 to win" I was talking about. However, what about Corrosive Projection. Four of them. Well, now the enemy has no armor. The Bombard's EHP is only it's calculated HP on its level now. That's just less than 6k HP. This only requires 4 Overextended Radial Javelins to kill. This is the strongest enemy that will spawn on non-scaling missions on the highest planet node.

 

What does this mean though? Considering we generally run maximum efficiency to carry around 6 canned nukes without the need to refill on Warframes not using Flow as well, we can easily clear a room with no trouble regardless of how many enemies are in it on the highest non-infinitely scaling node in the solar system. If we kill anything at all (which we will), and pick up any energy orbs we see (which we will--or not with energy packs and syndicate buffs), we can clear maps forever. In any non-scaling mission, even on the "hardest" difficulty.

 

At least, that's how it is for grineer, the durable enemy in the solar system. We used to farm Corpus on Viver before those pesky nullifiers came along. They didn't have armor. Just apply the no-armor logic in our grineer experience and it's easy to see how trivial the corpus were.

 

 

 

With the above summed up, we understand the game is not challenging for veterans even on the highest level nodes in the solar system and void, provided infinite scaling is not in action. We also know how much the "cookie cutter" core mods of the weapon contribute to our imbalance between new and old players and make balance difficult. Radial damage nukes really do win everywhere except infinite content. Grineer are indeed insanely Ruk'ing durable compared to everything else, but we can still trivialize them. What are possible solutions?

 

Well, change is possible, so many solutions can be considered. Devstream #44 looked promising, as did the overview.

 

Well, assuming the speculated damage, enemy, status, and weapon rebalances take everything into account with precision we can only dream about until we see it, player weapons and mods should first be balanced to have less of a gap between their ability, with more viability in choice between everything; weapons, mods, elements, anything you can remember. Next, use this standardized expectation of applied power to balance the durability of enemies across the solar system. Current Grineer armor scaling needs to be scrapped, it's pure madness. Once these elements are targeted, gameplay can start taking a form where we actually do feel more challenge across the solar system's many planets. Also, rewards need to be scaled upwards for challenge. There is seriously no incentive for going to higher level planets--we're practically making easy mode the best option unless the dropped void keys differ between nodes.

 

What about abilities? This is an abilities thread, and one of the game's largest facets are abilities. Our concern is mostly behind radial (spherical) damage abilities, especially "ultimates", usually ability #4. There are many ways to solve that situation. Considering how similar most instant-damage radial abilities are in comparison to each other, they could be made more unique by trading a portion of damage for unique custom statuses and effects (offensive/defensive/supportive). As powerful as Nova is, her participation in the game is no longer as game-breakingly destructive as it once was. Alternatively, abilities can keep their original stats, and be balanced more closely to the game by tweaking the values of abilities mods which work with said abilities. Yet another choice is to just balance ability stats along with the rest of the heap, while making a choice as to whether they are powerful yet limited, or more average within the kit and just as unlimited as before. Even better, bump all #4 abilities to #5 abilities, and implement something balanced for the new #4. Make now ability #5 run off something that is not energy. A completely different limitation that is more suitable to an epic room-clearing mega ability.

 

In short, level 40 heavy grineer units (Bombards) typically die within less than a second of gunfire from a decent weapon. If you're using the same build on an Mk-1 Braton, it will only take 4 seconds. Radial Javelin and other nukes can still clear any and every non-endless mission with max range and max efficiency.

 

That said, as bizarre as it is that our trading card game within the mod system takes priority over the shooter-game nature of combat, the game is for the most part designed for "Press 4 to win" for both efficiency and survivability. It would be nice for the game to be more rewarding to skilled players by some mechanic other than three game modes. In a sense, we are all "Press 4 to win dudes". It's simply the flavor of the game as of now.

 

As for ability augments, it's nice to see the duration-based augments gain additional incentive to spice up gameplay besides the usual one-button frenzy.

Edited January 17, 2015 by MechaKnight

[(PSN)IMainTheMains]

I should really start using augments but the second set isn't out yet on PS4 :/

[MechaKnight]

I should really start using augments but the second set isn't out yet on PS4 :/

Hall of Malevolence is a good one. If you like teamwork, the first ability infusion ones are really good, provided you have a friend who will reciprocate their buffs to you so you can both have fun. Soul Survivor solidifies Nekros' role on the field.

[AlphaHorseman]

As a player who has played on Saryn for about 400 hours worth of in-mission game time, I am understandably irritated by the subject of "Press 4 to win." As much as I would like to be a smart and savvy player for seeing all the worth in all of her abilities, clearly the playerbase seems to agree that trashing 3 of her abilities and both of her augments is the best way to play this warframe, which is effectively saying that my desire to play skillfully with variety makes me a bad player, while those who prefer to pace around and press a single button are considered good players. Clearly, the way abilities and energy works is backwards.

Yes I'm aware Miasma is backwards too. Still only one ability though.

 

For Mirage, it goes either way. Players could mod for duration or efficiency in either direction to preference. Although Mirage has decently high duration, the player choice to put efficiency in higher priority seems to imply that Mirage's enhanced gunplay somehow takes a backseat to her Prism occasionally. Depending on the player, it does.

 

Mesa is a very interesting experiment by developers, very clever. The first ability is a decent cheap damage skill. The second is crowd control, with teamwork involved. The third is personal safety. The fourth is pure sustained damage, without crowd control. The fact that strength and efficiency to use Peacemaker is generally regarded as more important than personal safety or sustained crowd control seems to imply that raw damage takes priority over safety and team safety. Additionally, the lack of word for Ballistic Battery cements the suspicion that players don't tend to toss out energy in small chunks when there is a much more valuable ability to save towards.

 

Oberon's scaling with duration is on three of his abilities, but two of them can work decently well even ignoring this fact. Hallowed Ground is certainly lost, but Renewal operates on reduced effectiveness, and the radiation status from Reckoning may be more reliable than the blind given how much duration it requires.

 

The fact that gameplay tends to shape itself in this manner does imply that the state of the game leans towards "Press 4 to win", but I'm not really sure if developers or players can be blamed exclusively. What we can note is the result.

 

 

In short, level 40 heavy grineer units (Bombards) typically die within less than a second of gunfire from a decent weapon. If you're using the same build on an Mk-1 Braton, it will only take 4 seconds. Radial Javelin and other nukes can still clear any and every non-endless mission with max range and max efficiency.

 

That said, as bizarre as it is that our trading card game within the mod system takes priority over the shooter-game nature of combat, the game is for the most part designed for "Press 4 to win" for both efficiency and survivability. It would be nice for the game to be more rewarding to skilled players by some mechanic other than three game modes. In a sense, we are all "Press 4 to win dudes". It's simply the flavor of the game as of now.

 

As for ability augments, it's nice to see the duration-based augments gain additional incentive to spice up gameplay besides the usual one-button frenzy.

I want you to look at the newest results of the newest Hot Topics, Mecha. It'll show you how many people actually do just use their 4. It's a microcosm of the community, but as we here are most likely the vets of the community, I think it'll show you actually how many of us do this.

[geninrising]

I want you to look at the newest results of the newest Hot Topics, Mecha. It'll show you how many people actually do just use their 4. It's a microcosm of the community, but as we here are most likely the vets of the community, I think it'll show you actually how many of us do this.

No what it'll show you is the people that ADMIT to it. There is a clear and marked difference. Better yet would be to have DE actually monitor usage but they can't do that.

My experience is that there is an individual in every single mission that spams if the mission has any objective that involves killing enemies other than a capture target and even then it's spam an ability that completely trivializes the run by being invisible or super fast and bypassing the obstacles (these are rushed and only the target is a concern, and periodically various sabotage missions as killing is unnecessary there).

Interceptions/spam, Survival/spam, Defense/spam, Exterminate/spam, Mobile Defense/spam, Capture/spam or not spam due to invisibility or speed

Sabotage/spam or not spam due to invisibility or speed.

Don't give that crap about spam not being effective in t4 survival or defense either because the spam just changes flavor from Excal to Nyx/Loki/Frost/Limbo/Vauban(the last 2 as of late). Spam is an issue everywhere, it's just some people don't want to admit the problem. It's like alcoholism that way.

Edited January 18, 2015 by geninrising

[AlphaHorseman]

-snippy snip-

Awwww, looks like someone is being a bit sour since the facts are right in front of his face.

 

Alcoholism? Wow, you're being extreme there kiddo. How did I know this was going to be your response? Haha, I actually did know you were going to respond this way.

 

The numbers are right there in your face. Don't have to try and make up an excuse for it. Not everyone uses the p42w strategy, hell, not even a cult of the community does, it's a sliver of a fraction of it.

 

So, yeah, I'm still against nerfing caster capabilities through the restrictions of power availability through methods proposed here or elsewhere to which I have responded, and I've stated my reasons why.

 

Now, the numbers show you why the argument that p42w is rampant isn't so much an argument anymore.

Edited January 18, 2015 by AlphaHorseman

[AlphaHorseman]

No what it'll show you is the people that ADMIT to it. There is a clear and marked difference. Better yet would be to have DE actually monitor usage but they can't do that.

My experience is that there is an individual in every single mission that spams if the mission has any objective that involves killing enemies other than a capture target and even then it's spam an ability that completely trivializes the run by being invisible or super fast and bypassing the obstacles (these are rushed and only the target is a concern, and periodically various sabotage missions as killing is unnecessary there).

Interceptions/spam, Survival/spam, Defense/spam, Exterminate/spam, Mobile Defense/spam, Capture/spam or not spam due to invisibility or speed

Sabotage/spam or not spam due to invisibility or speed.

Don't give that crap about spam not being effective in t4 survival or defense either because the spam just changes flavor from Excal to Nyx/Loki/Frost/Limbo/Vauban(the last 2 as of late). Spam is an issue everywhere, it's just some people don't want to admit the problem. It's like alcoholism that way.

darn thing is being weird with quotes. but my response is above this comment. :)

Edited January 18, 2015 by AlphaHorseman

[geninrising]

Awwww, looks like someone is being a bit sour since the facts are right in front of his face.

 

Alcoholism? Wow, you're being extreme there kiddo. How did I know this was going to be your response? Haha, I actually did know you were going to respond this way.

 

The numbers are right there in your face. Don't have to try and make up an excuse for it. Not everyone uses the p42w strategy, hell, not even a cult of the community does, it's a sliver of a fraction of it.

 

So, yeah, I'm still against nerfing caster capabilities through the restrictions of power availability through methods proposed here or elsewhere to which I have responded, and I've stated my reasons why.

 

Now, the numbers show you why the argument that p42w is rampant isn't so much an argument anymore.

Once again in case you do not understand the fallacy of your statement. Those numbers only represent those who are willing to actually admit to abusing the whole p42w thing. The issue goes far beyond that otherwise it would not even be a topic for the community at all.

 

The sheer fact that it is constantly an issue speaks for itself despite your feelings or opinions.

If said speaking point were not an issue whatsoever as said post leads one to believe there would not be hundreds of various posts concerning it.

Said posts being some of the most active posts in the entire forum. So while it is hotly debated it is far from a non-issue and will remain a "hot topic" whether it is cited as such or not until it is changed. 

 

Be prepared for a long involved process sir as it's not going away any time soon. Until DE commits to their quality focus entirely it will continually be a point of contention.

[AlphaHorseman]

 

Once again in case you do not understand the fallacy of your statement. Those numbers only represent those who are willing to actually admit to abusing the whole p42w thing. The issue goes far beyond that otherwise it would not even be a topic for the community at all.

 

The sheer fact that it is constantly an issue speaks for itself despite your feelings or opinions.

If said speaking point were not an issue whatsoever as said post leads one to believe there would not be hundreds of various posts concerning it.

Said posts being some of the most active posts in the entire forum. So while it is hotly debated it is far from a non-issue and will remain a "hot topic" whether it is cited as such or not until it is changed. 

 

Be prepared for a long involved process sir as it's not going away any time soon. Until DE commits to their quality focus entirely it will continually be a point of contention.

 

 

Are you calling over 1,200 people liars?

 

It's a hot topic because people who actually do use all their powers, or at least some, like the 1,200 you say are lying, are being told by people like you to suffer at the hands of the under 80 people that actually do use this tactic. NOT ONLY those 1,200 people, but the ENTIRE COMMUNITY. That's who you're telling needs to suffer. Just because of not even a triple digit number of people. We who actually do use all our powers aren't gonna stand idly by while people rant about a select few and try to make sweeping changes to the game because of under 80 people.

 

Pffft. Oh please, that argument of p42w being rampant was shot out of the water.

 

The only thing you can throw out now about p42w is "I think it's bad and it should be changed because I think it's bad". You may put it in fancy words, but that's pretty much what you're saying.

Edited January 18, 2015 by AlphaHorseman

[geninrising]

Are you calling over 1,200 people liars?

 

It's a hot topic because people who actually do use all their powers, or at least some, like the 1,200 you say are lying, are being told by people like you to suffer at the hands of the under 80 people that actually do use this tactic. NOT ONLY those 1,200 people, but the ENTIRE COMMUNITY. That's who you're telling needs to suffer. Just because of not even a triple digit number of people. We who actually do use all our powers aren't gonna stand idly by while people rant about a select few and try to make sweeping changes to the game because of under 80 people.

 

Pffft. Oh please, that argument of p42w being rampant was shot out of the water.

 

The only thing you can throw out now about p42w is "I think it's bad and it should be changed because I think it's bad". You may put it in fancy words, but that's pretty much what you're saying.

If the shoe fits feel free to lace that bi$ch up and wear it. Quite likely the crew that admitted to using a few of their abilities are p42w players(not entirely as I am in that category but the point remains).

 

The fact that there are 80 that have voted the "I only use one skill" shows exactly one thing...How many were TRUTHFUL and admitted to abuse of said energy loophole.

 

The rest of the votes are much less suspect.

[AlphaHorseman]

If the shoe fits feel free to lace that bi$ch up and wear it. Quite likely the crew that admitted to using a few of their abilities are p42w players(not entirely as I am in that category but the point remains).

 

The fact that there are 80 that have voted the "I only use one skill" shows exactly one thing...How many were TRUTHFUL and admitted to abuse of said energy loophole.

 

The rest of the votes are much less suspect.

Wow, I thought you were going to come back with something that was philosophical, I was actually waiting for some in-depth response.

 

The mere fact you responded like this is kinda messed up dude. I voted in that, and I voted that I use some/most of my powers. I literally have no frames where I just use one power. That's how I play, I like using all or most of them.

 

You just pretty much called me a liar for telling the truth.

 

You just pretty much told everyone who voted the other two options and voted truthfully that they all lied.

 

I had respect for you man. Now though, not after that.

 

I don't use p42w, and the people who voted know they don't.

 

I'm sorry you feel that way, I'm sorry you think that it's true, but I can't change your mind, it seems, even when all the evidence is given to you by the entirety of the voting community.

 

Call us what you will, we know how we play, and that it isn't a SLIVER of what you think it is. Enjoy your time in WarFrame, or not, if you meet one of us 1,200 people who play other than p42w, since apparently you called us 1,200 people liars.

Edited January 18, 2015 by AlphaHorseman

[geninrising]

Wow, I thought you were going to come back with something that was philosophical, I was actually waiting for some in-depth response.

 

The mere fact you responded like this is kinda messed up dude. I voted in that, and I voted that I use some/most of my powers. I literally have no frames where I just use one power. That's how I play, I like using all or most of them.

 

You just pretty much called me a liar for telling the truth.

 

You just pretty much told everyone who voted the other two options and voted truthfully that they all lied.

 

I don't use p42w, and the people who voted know they don't.

 

I'm sorry you feel that way, I'm sorry you think that it's true, but I can't change your mind, it seems, even when all the evidence is given to you by the entirety of the voting community.

 

Call us what you will, we know how we play, and that it isn't a SLIVER of what you think it is. Enjoy your time in WarFrame, or not, if you meet one of us 1,200 people who play other than p42w, since apparently you called us 1,200 people liars.

Please feel free to try and make it  a personal attack. Quite frankly that shows an inability to create a valid response and is often a tactic used by race-baiting individuals and or political candidates.

 

Actually your example of what you voted for does not speak for the rest of the individuals. Nor does it influence my stance on the matter.

 

Nor does it change the fact that I deal with people abusing this energy loophole CONSTANTLY not once in a while, not on specific maps, or only in specific modes. Constantly and therefore my stance remains proven by my experiences.

 

Back to the topic of OP I think what has occurred is that various changes were submitted and just did not get reported in the change log and therefore were not commented upon in the Update post.

Edited January 18, 2015 by geninrising

[AlphaHorseman]

Please feel free to try and make it  a personal attack. Quite frankly that shows an inability to create a valid response and is often a tactic used by race-baiting individuals and or political candidates.

 

Actually your example of what you voted for does not speak for the rest of the individuals. Nor does it influence my stance on the matter.

 

Nor does it change the fact that I deal with people abusing this energy loophole CONSTANTLY not once in a while, not on specific maps, or only in specific modes. Constantly and therefore my stance remains proven by my experiences.

 

Back to the topic of OP I think what has occurred is that various changes were submitted and just did not get reported in the change log and therefore were not commented upon in the Update post.

Quite frankly you're losing an argument when there's valid evidence against the so called "fact" you claim.

 

Or I should say you've lost.

 

As long as they stay more transparent with the changes, OP, we can keep hoping these buffs continue.

[geninrising]

Quite frankly you're losing an argument when there's valid evidence against the so called "fact" you claim.

 

Or I should say you've lost.

 

As long as they stay more transparent with the changes, OP, we can keep hoping these buffs continue.

Please feel free to show me evidence. The only statistic you can read as fact from that assessment is that 80 individuals owned up to utilizing a broken system.

 

What I intimated was the fact that in games when a player has the ability to do something that gets them a reward easier they will not generally tell someone they are doing it IF the effect could be a change in dynamic that disallows use of said tactic.

 

Therefore my stance remains that just because 80 people owned up to doing this does not mean those are the only ones doing this. Also if that were the case most individuals would not even know what p42w is let alone have run into them as often as is prevalent.

 

The other point I made was that it is a constant issue (considering I see it every day in all gametypes), and in different gametypes the flavor of spam just changes it is never absent.

 

Additionally claiming victory without any data that PROVES it beyond a shadow of a doubt (a poll that cannot prove the validity of statements it contains cannot be proof) is an additional fallacy that you perpetuate quite often.

 

I never claim that I win an argument, only that my reasoning is sound given my experience.

Edited January 18, 2015 by geninrising

[AlphaHorseman]

Please feel free to show me evidence. The only statistic you can read as fact from that assessment is that 80 individuals owned up to utilizing a broken system.

 

What I intimated was the fact that in games when a player has the ability to do something that gets them a reward easier they will not generally tell someone they are doing it IF the effect could be a change in dynamic that disallows use of said tactic.

 

Therefore my stance remains that just because 80 people owned up to doing this does not mean those are the only ones doing this. Also if that were the case most individuals would not even know what p42w is let alone have run into them as often as is prevalent.

 

The other point I made was that it is a constant issue (considering I see it every day in all gametypes), and in different gametypes the flavor of spam just changes it is never absent.

 

Additionally claiming victory without any data that PROVES it beyond a shadow of a doubt (a poll that cannot prove the validity of statements it contains cannot be proof) is an additional fallacy that you perpetuate quite often.

 

I never claim that I win an argument, only that my reasoning is sound given my experience.

Just because 80 people owned up to it doesn't mean the 1,200 are lying.

 

The overwhelming vote of people in this community, not just one or two, but 1,200 is a pretty big indicator of "we all don't press 4 and mindlessly do nothing". 

 

It isn't even 80 people, it's still under that. The other two numbers have grown a lot, the amount of people that actually do use just their 4, not so much.

 

So people like using all/most of their powers, that doesn't mean it's wrong.

 

And you realize why sometimes people do this, its because of this:

 

You guys still aren't getting it.  The problem isn't radial nukes, the problem isn't energy, heck, the problem isn't even over or under powered abilities.

 

The problem is very well geared players being forced to play low leveled areas.  If you don't want them trivializing low leveled areas, then freaking give them a challenge, or a high leveled area somewhere else.

 

Let's be perfectly honest here.  There was NEVER a problem at viver in the first place.  The REAL problem was DE implementing syndicates, with a massive grindwall that new players would gradually vanquish as they played the game, while leaving players that had already vanquished most of the game in the lurch.

 

Of COURSE well-geared endgame players are going to find the most efficient method possible to get stuff that they SHOULD ALREADY HAVE faster!  DE OUGHT to have fixed this oversight when they implemented syndicates, perhaps by taking the EXP a person has earned(dividing by a suitable multiplier, obviously people who run a lot of endless missions to late in will have insane amounts of EXP saved up in a smaller amount of overall time), and then giving pre-syndicate vouchers (which already exist in the game as the syndicate specific tokens you can hunt down in syndicate missions) to players with the update that brought syndicates into the game, allowing these players to rapidly invest in the syndicates they wanted to as if they had done so while playing the game before hand.

 

Nullifiers were implemented for the same reason, DE knee-jerk reacting to players fixing the problem that DE created.  Nullifiers are STILL completely and utterly stupid-broken with regards to heavily nerfing low RoF high power weapons while buffing the ALREADY biased towards high RoF weapons via a ridiculous, counterintuitive mechanic that should NEVER have blocked bullets or blades AT ALL in the first place.

 

None of the damage 4s have ever been a problem.  5k damage?  Any well modded weapon will do that in a shot or three.  20k damage?  Snipers do as much or more on average per shot, and with max power strength you've nerfed every other part of your kit to siphon all the power into your 4, as well as playing a specific frame (ash/rhino/excalibur), so why shouldn't you be able to?  No, the problem here isn't players winning easily, the problem here is bored players winning easy content easily, based on the massive amounts of resources, power, and knowledge they have ALREADY collected about the game.

 

IF DE doesn't like it, they need to work harder on the endgame and segregating players of widely variant mastery ranks (unless friend/premade intentionally) and focus less on people doing what they are intended to do to low difficulty challenges.

 

Namely, utterly ANNIHILATING them.

 

In short, 4s aren't too powerful, and energy isn't too plentiful, the energy system doesn't need a rework, and we don't need to nerf the heck out of all our damage-caster frames.  P42w is what a low-leveled/geared player sees when they get grouped with a high leveled/geared player being forced to do low-leveled content that bores them terribly.  There really isn't any P42W in the end, specifically, the closest things we have to endless missions atm.  Level 20-40 enemies against a player who is fully utilizing a frame that is effectively level 60?  Yeah they're going to fall like snow.  Level 80 enemies?  Suddenly all of those damage 4s are not even worth using, because it literally takes 10 casts to kill anything.  The CC still works though, but the game is quite hard, even for radial spam builds at this point, because they have to time that CC to make the best use, with their guns and blades, of the time they have made to be safe from instant death from the enemies.

 

 Back on point to the OP, any other news of other mods that's changed?

Edited January 18, 2015 by AlphaHorseman

[Renegade343]

Just because 80 people owned up to it doesn't mean the 1,200 are lying.

 

The overwhelming vote of people in this community, not just one or two, but 1,200 is a pretty big indicator of "we all don't press 4 and mindlessly do nothing". 

 

It isn't even 80 people, it's still under that. The other two numbers have grown a lot, the amount of people that actually do use just their 4, not so much.

 

So people like using all/most of their powers, that doesn't mean it's wrong.

Then again, he does have a point that some players could be placing the fake answer to the polls. 

 

Although, of course, that is also just creating conspiracy theories. I think a better way to show if 'press 4 to win' is evident would be to show the number of times a certain Warframe has casted the Ultimate, and segregate it by grouping Mastery Ranks. Then, at least it would give a better indicator as to what Warframes players like using the 'press 4 to win' method. 

 

In short, another By the Numbers thread, this time showing the number of uses of Warframe abilities. 

[geninrising]

Just because 80 people owned up to it doesn't mean the 1,200 are lying.

 

Precisely, just because people voted on a poll cannot be factually correct as you claimed without hard numbers to prove what is what.

Hence why I made the claim that the only more reasonable fact would be the 80 that admitted it because they do not CARE(and that is key) they do not care if DE is made aware of it, while the majority of p#2w players staunchly defend it at every turn and will avoid bringing emphasis to it's use whenever possible to downplay it's prevalence. 

 

What is needed is a system in place that meters specific ability use that can ACTUALLY tell the truth whereas we cannot expect reasonably that players would admit something that would possibly get them nerfed losing the ability to do so.

[Thrymm]

Precisely, just because people voted on a poll cannot be factually correct as you claimed without hard numbers to prove what is what.

Hence why I made the claim that the only more reasonable fact would be the 80 that admitted it because they do not CARE(and that is key) they do not care if DE is made aware of it, while the majority of p#2w players staunchly defend it at every turn and will avoid bringing emphasis to it's use whenever possible to downplay it's prevalence. 

 

What is needed is a system in place that meters specific ability use that can ACTUALLY tell the truth whereas we cannot expect reasonably that players would admit something that would possibly get them nerfed losing the ability to do so.

There is obviously going to be some margin for error, but when you're seeing less than ten percent "admitting to it"(like it's a crime or something, I mean honestly, it's an anonymous poll taken for the betterment of their gaming experience, not much motivation to lie), it's a pretty fair indicator that no, in fact, it's not a majority thing.  Any reasonable margin of dishonesty would still squarely state that this isn't the case.

 

In fact, the very statements trying to prove this true disprove it.  "There's always one" in a mission with four people in it.....congratulations, the anecdotal evidence says 25%.  I'm not saying that this isn't enough to become problematic, what I'm saying is the obvious---that's not a majority of the player base.

 

And yet, the longer quote above explains the situation precisely.  We grind low level garbage all the time.  We grind it for resources, new drops.....pretty much a multitude of reasons that aren't "this is what we'd do to progress if we where given better choices".  When that happens, just annihilating a room and moving on seems like a pretty reasonable option---why would I want to prolong a level 15-20 syndicate execute mission by pretending headshots are crucial?

 

And I'm not even a "press 4 to win" kind of guy.  My most played frame is frost.....I'm a "press 3 to win" kind of guy, and frankly, it's not my fault.  Need cover?  Press 3.  Need a snare?  Press 3.  Need an objective/teammate/shield recharge period of protection?  Press 3.  To press 4 or 2 I'd have to waddle my slow &#! all the way into enemy gunfire, then lumber back out of it again as opposed to pressing 3, being invulnerable, and disposing of the problem with impunity.  Or I could CC it, with all the precision and efficiency of a single Supra bolt with my 1 ability.

 

Which brings this right back to the subject at hand.  The augments make some of the more chronically underutilized abilities much more desirable.  Buffs to them are a good thing, because if the actual target is raising the usage of these abilities, they pretty much need to continue buffing them until that happens.

 

In the case of Frost, his Ice Wave augment pretty much turns it into a hard CC.  It's still short range and crappy damage, but it becomes something of real value with this augment, provided you're ever in a situation in which enemies are getting that close(it's hellish versus infested).  His augments also highlight one of his very real problems---his freeze with travel time is poorly implemented and his speed does not have synergy with his Ice Wave.  They're a good litmus for further balancing in this regard.

 

Rhinos armor augment adds a ton of viability to his shrapnel augment.  Charging in and discharging iron skin onto your enemies becomes something that not only fits the flavor of the frame, but also becomes quite effective.  Further, his augments DO have synergy with his skillset, and they become highlighted by this.  He has the speed to get in, he has the CC to get out alive, and the pair actually help each other out because he doesn't lose his survivability by using his shrapnel augment.  They've successfully created a good reason to utilize these abilities creatively because the rest of the frame mechanically supports them well.

[geninrising]

There is obviously going to be some margin for error, but when you're seeing less than ten percent "admitting to it"(like it's a crime or something, I mean honestly, it's an anonymous poll taken for the betterment of their gaming experience, not much motivation to lie), it's a pretty fair indicator that no, in fact, it's not a majority thing.  Any reasonable margin of dishonesty would still squarely state that this isn't the case.

 

The motivation to lie is RETENTION of the ability to perform said action with impunity.

 

As far as the "crime" you mentioned, DE has already stated that p42w is an abuse of an energy loophole and they do not support exploiting it.

 

So "crime" plus "motivation"= dishonesty. Ever will it be so long as the issue is not rectified.

Edited January 18, 2015 by geninrising

[Thrymm]

It's not a punishable offense.  It's not even on the table to be nerfed.  There is certainly no punishment in the works for doing this.  In fact, per the very subject of this thread, the direction taken to reduce the use of this playstyle is to augment the other abilities, which is plainly obvious to anyone participating in this game enough to answer the poll in the first place.

 

There is no "energy loophole".  The mods work exactly as designed, and this is where you've found dishonesty.  IF this was actually considered a "loophole", the people claiming that they don't support it are the ones with the ability to fix the problem.  They don't, and haven't.  It isn't the fault of the players in the slightest that this still exists.

 

EDIT: For point of reference with which I make this assertion, Steel Charge was nerfed awhile back.  The reason it was nerfed is that it gave too many skill points to frames.  People where "exploiting this loophole" to create builds with significantly larger point expenditures.  The situation was remedied fairly quickly because of this.

 

If DE did not, or does not support this playstyle, they don't need a poll to rectify the problem.  They don't need our answers.  In fact, there is a fallacy in this thread that suggests that they can't simply look and see how often we use the abilities---our scorecard monitors the number of abilities used in a mission, number of kills are tracked, and DE has shared information on what is brought into and out of missions.  In other words, if they actually want to just look at their sheets to see if things are used, they're more than capable of figuring it out.  We don't need to lie to keep anything, their apathy on the subject has let it become what it is AND stay there in the first place.

 

What this poll does do, however, is offer players opinions on what they actually THINK they do inside of a mission.  The majority by a decided amount state that they use some but not all abilities regularly, and frame knowledge tells a player that this is probably true--most frames have a couple useful abilities and a couple that aren't worth a button press in most cases.  This is a good piece of information, because it displays that most players do not perceive their entire skill set as useful, even if they believe they are attempting to utilize it.

 

Rhino, the subject of this thread, his a great example.  He's often accused of "press4towin".  The reality is that he is also probably heavily abusing his iron skin.  Without the useful augment, he probably never bothered to cast charge.  If his #4 is useful, his #3 probably isn't(all that power to stomp/iron skin means no duration to speak of), so he probably isn't using it.  Game design has dictated that he'll have two useful abilities, the new augment potentially gives him a third.  It means that by game design, players ARE using two abilities, another is borderline useless, and the next is worse than that without this augment.  The honest answer for someone that's nothing but a stomp spammer is genuinely "use some but not all abilities"--no reason to lie.

Edited January 18, 2015 by Thrymm

[geninrising]

There is no "energy loophole".  The mods work exactly as designed, and this is where you've found dishonesty.  IF this was actually considered a "loophole", the people claiming that they don't support it are the ones with the ability to fix the problem.  They don't, and haven't.  It isn't the fault of the players in the slightest that this still exists.

 

Are you daft? Do you need me to specifically Quote DESteves recorded words to you? Words he stated LIVE on camera?

 

DE Steve's specific words SMH

Our ‘press 4 to win’ ultimates are metered primarily by the supply of energy. Finding an energy loophole means that Homer’s drinking bird can play the game for you. That is not team synergy. That is just broken

 

This fall, starting with Excalibur, we’ve begun to take a hard look at these ‘X-Ray AOE’ abilities and wonder if we can bring more elements of skill back in. That’s the short answer to ‘why the hell is DE messing with us’. Homer’s drinking bird should not play the game for you.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/345295-vivergate-vent-radioactive-gas-yn/

 

Now kindly get off the forums if you refuse to learn about that which you speak of.

[geninrising]

 

Rhino, the subject of this thread, his a great example.  He's often accused of "press4towin".  The reality is that he is also probably heavily abusing his iron skin.  Without the useful augment, he probably never bothered to cast charge.  If his #4 is useful, his #3 probably isn't(all that power to stomp/iron skin means no duration to speak of), so he probably isn't using it.  Game design has dictated that he'll have two useful abilities, the new augment potentially gives him a third.  It means that by game design, players ARE using two abilities, another is borderline useless, and the next is worse than that without this augment.  The honest answer for someone that's nothing but a stomp spammer is genuinely "use some but not all abilities"--no reason to lie.

I also think you are far and away confused as to where you are. Maybe pay attention to where you post and what you respond to rather then spout what you know when you are lost to begin with SMH 

 

The subject of this thread is in fact not the p42w discussion however there was an issue that someone brought up here in regards to said poll and I addressed said comment.

Edited January 18, 2015 by geninrising