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[DE]Drew

January 16Th: Community Hot Topics!

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Explanation for vote on Q#1:

 

I find wall fling the most confusing and sometimes irritating of these three. Sliding and coptering are cool, but the flinging (at least for me) is hit or miss and I can't seem to find out what exactly triggers it when I'm ninja-ing around.

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Do you think Sliding, Coptering, and/or Wall Flinging should be changed in some way?

bullet_star_rated.png No, do not change them at all. (763 votes [40.37%])

 

I got into this game because it looked cool, but no other game gave me the mobility that Warframe did. No matter the size of the map, I'm not intimidated simply because I can travel from one end to the other without worrying about "grinding" the run like the standard MMOs. 

Do you think pickups (orbs and ammo) need a revision?
  1. bullet_star_rated.png Yes, they definitely need a complete revision. (625 votes [33.07%])

Rethink this for a while and consider guns like the Glaxion. It's a really cool concept, but the ammo efficiency is just horrible. If you slap an ammo mutation on it, then the already atrocious DPS is even lower now. 

 

What I think should be done is percentage based ammo restores instead, so that will ACTUALLY mean that certain guns will be viable once again. 

 

What is your opinion on pure damage mods (for example, Serration)?

bullet_star_rated.png They need their damage bonus decreased and/or replaced with a different bonus. (256 votes [13.54%])

 

I have a feeling some people will have a beef with me on this, but all lv10 mods for guns should be reduced to lv5 to make for more viable designs and tactical decisions. 

 

To that end, I really do agree with some of the other posters in proposing Damage 3.0, where elemental effects are more pronounced to encourage the usage of specialized mods, otherwise it'll be just that one or two "compulsory" mods on a gun and that's it.

Would you grab enemies if you could?

bullet_star_rated.png Probably not. Faster to shoot them! (351 votes [18.57%])

 

 

Sorry, personal preference here. Nothing to see. Move along. 

 

On average, do you use all of your Warframe’s abilities?
  1. bullet_star_rated.png No, I only use some abilities on average. (1020 votes [53.97%])

 

How many frames are just walking ultimates (to borrow a term from Dota 2)? Saryn? Excalibur? Nova? Mesa? What about frames that are requested in the recruitment channel for just one ability? Frost? Nekros? 

 

While they might have interesting abilities, most of them are just being used for a single purpose, and even dual purpose frames have the problem of mod specialization. 

 

Not that this is a bad thing though :)

 

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Mods like serration that really can't be left out do seem to take away from the innate customization of the weapons I think.

 

But because it's always been like this I'm not sure if it's a bad thing or not. I'm also not sure how to even begin changing it.

 

Maybe taking the damage from serration, factoring it directly into the guns, then have the guns reach that damage level through ranking up?

Course then low level players would have no challenge on those lower levels anymore really...

See I suck at this.

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I'm okay with damage mods, but I think they should have consistent leveling. Serration having 10 levels to level is a major chore and takes up too many resources.

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i used to only use a select few abilities when i could make custom builds around a certain aspect of the frame. ever since they took away four mod spots i use all the abilities with a focus on a few.

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Only 3.82% of people said they only use their 4th ability on average?

This poll was clearly rigged.

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The hell are you talkin' bout? Do you think this is some kinda comedy routine? Can I play the straight man and say, in the most deadpan way Imaginable "Damage? are you sure you're not talking about sit-ups?"

 

I can't actually make that funny or grammatically correct. You need better material for this to work. Please stop posting... annoyingly worded falsities. 

 

Innocent, if you're unable to actually address a point, you should just admit it rather than making an appeal to absurdity. I mean, I've never been impressed with your skill to counter someone's argument and every time I've seen you try you've been crushed utterly, but this is even worse than usual.

 

Here, let me explain my point further:

 

The player meta will always sniff out the most optimal build. The most optimal build will inevitably revolve around killing the most powerful enemies as quickly as possible.

 

What kills enemies as quickly as possible? Ultimately, it boils down to damage.

 

You can remove serration, you can change elemental mods so they only mutate existing damage, you can do literally anything, but this fundamental truth won't change.

 

Indeed, let's remove all +damage, +crit, and +element mods just to illustrate the point. Axe shred and other punch through mods too, for the same reasons.

You know what the new player meta will be? ROF and reload, both of which ultimately increase DPS. Remove those too? Ammo, which ultimately increases sustained DPS. Remove ammo capacity mods? Golly, what mods are left? Uh... Eagle Eye? Something that helps you hit distant targets, thus dealing more damage to them? :o

 

Seriously, if you can think of a way to rebalance the situation such that the player meta will focus on something other than the most efficient way to deal damage, I'm all ears.

 

There are ways Warframe can improve its balance, of course, but ultimately the player meta is always going to go for damage when it comes to weapons and if you disagree, please, by all means show a good counterexample.

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Innocent, if you're unable to actually address a point, you should just admit it rather than making an appeal to absurdity. I mean, I've never been impressed with your skill to counter someone's argument and every time I've seen you try you've been crushed utterly, but this is even worse than usual.

 

Here, let me explain my point further:

 

The player meta will always sniff out the most optimal build. The most optimal build will inevitably revolve around killing the most powerful enemies as quickly as possible.

 

What kills enemies as quickly as possible? Ultimately, it boils down to damage.

 

You can remove serration, you can change elemental mods so they only mutate existing damage, you can do literally anything, but this fundamental truth won't change.

 

Indeed, let's remove all +damage, +crit, and +element mods just to illustrate the point. Axe shred and other punch through mods too, for the same reasons.

You know what the new player meta will be? ROF and reload, both of which ultimately increase DPS. Remove those too? Ammo, which ultimately increases sustained DPS. Remove ammo capacity mods? Golly, what mods are left? Uh... Eagle Eye? Something that helps you hit distant targets, thus dealing more damage to them? :o

 

Seriously, if you can think of a way to rebalance the situation such that the player meta will focus on something other than the most efficient way to deal damage, I'm all ears.

 

There are ways Warframe can improve its balance, of course, but ultimately the player meta is always going to go for damage when it comes to weapons and if you disagree, please, by all means show a good counterexample.

You are certainly correct that there will always be a best build that players will use no matter what you do with the mod system but what I hope will happen if DE nerfs/removes serration is that they will look at the rest of the mods and try to reduce the gap between the best builds and the worst builds and additionally remove/rework the mods that are always the wrong choice when modding so that even if you are using the worst build possible you can still do something.

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Innocent, if you're unable to actually address a point, you should just admit it rather than making an appeal to absurdity. I mean, I've never been impressed with your skill to counter someone's argument and every time I've seen you try you've been crushed utterly, but this is even worse than usual.

 

Here, let me explain my point further:

 

The player meta will always sniff out the most optimal build. The most optimal build will inevitably revolve around killing the most powerful enemies as quickly as possible.

 

What kills enemies as quickly as possible? Ultimately, it boils down to damage.

 

You can remove serration, you can change elemental mods so they only mutate existing damage, you can do literally anything, but this fundamental truth won't change.

 

Indeed, let's remove all +damage, +crit, and +element mods just to illustrate the point. Axe shred and other punch through mods too, for the same reasons.

You know what the new player meta will be? ROF and reload, both of which ultimately increase DPS. Remove those too? Ammo, which ultimately increases sustained DPS. Remove ammo capacity mods? Golly, what mods are left? Uh... Eagle Eye? Something that helps you hit distant targets, thus dealing more damage to them? :o

 

Seriously, if you can think of a way to rebalance the situation such that the player meta will focus on something other than the most efficient way to deal damage, I'm all ears.

 

There are ways Warframe can improve its balance, of course, but ultimately the player meta is always going to go for damage when it comes to weapons and if you disagree, please, by all means show a good counterexample.

The target of removing Serration and the damage mods is not to stop players from going for damage, it is to make all mod slots actually accessible. Serration and multishot are the only mods that you find on just about every single build ever. No one would ever remove one of them and replace them with another mod and claim that they did it to make their weapon perform better. Elemental mods may be present on every weapon as well, but they still let you choose which combination you want to take.

A weapon's purpose is to deal damage, so obviously players want to maximise that, just as you say, so you are also correct to say that trying to stop players from going for damage is not possible.

What can and should be done, however, is to allow players to choose themselves how they want to do that by giving more viable options, which Serration and multishot impede as essential mods. Slapping all of your elemental damage mods into your weapon should be possible, but it shouldn't be the only viable option there is.

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I've got an idea for how to deal with pure damage mods.  I doubt anyone will see this this late and this deep in to the thread, but I'm going to throw it out there anyway.

 

I think we can make flat stat mods more interesting by changing other mods in to mod modifiers, or what I'll call Mutation mods.  When you Forma a slot, instead of changing its polarity, it changes the properties of that slot to allow you to mutate the nod in it with another compatible mod.  (p.s. delete polarities on slots, they're lame)

 

Let's take Continuity as an example.  You put Continuity in to a Forma'd slot, and then it allows you to put Primed Continuity, Constitution, or Narrow Minded on top of it, to then flatly buff the power duration, gain slightly more power duration and a secondary stat, or buff the power duration even further than Primed Continuity at the loss of power range.

 

This sort of idea can be applied to all sorts of other mods, and allow us to have more build diversity by freeing up more slots (at the cost of a bit of our min-maxing potential, hopefully they'll be generous with us there and give us a lot of power still out of these mods even if we can only have two together at once).

 

-

 

This way we don't have to get rid of any mods, and it would free up more slots without making us give up anything essential.

 

 

EDIT:  To speak to Serration specifically, Serration could be modified by Split Chamber, Heavy Calibur and Primed Chamber, or some similar variety, so you get to control how many raw damage mods we put on a weapon and feel far more like you're making a playstyle choice.

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after ~2000 of votes i'm practically disappointed in the 40% of voters that don't want a properly working parkur...

 

 

Only 3.82% of people said they only use their 4th ability on average?

This poll was clearly rigged.

 

if they admit  that they use only the 4th ability they fear that they will get a cooldowns for them.

and that's why its 2# answer have the most votes.

 

gamers are not honest.

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What kills enemies as quickly as possible? Ultimately, it boils down to damage.

 

You can remove serration, you can change elemental mods so they only mutate existing damage, you can do literally anything, but this fundamental truth won't change.

Keeping mods that are universally applicable to dealing damage won't change that. Changing the nature of the questions will.

 

The less each power, mod, and weapon are seen to be all answers for all situations, (as pure damage mods do, imo) the more room there is to grow.

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Innocent, if you're unable to actually address a point, you should just admit it rather than making an appeal to absurdity. I mean, I've never been impressed with your skill to counter someone's argument and every time I've seen you try you've been crushed utterly, but this is even worse than usual.

I'm very fond that you seem to consider it a rivalry, but really; You were talking rubbish from the beginning. 

 

"it's human nature too..." Gross over-generalization. Speak for yourself. Not to mention how stupid the maths were. "5% or 500% people will always choose more damage" Are you sure? Are you absolutely sure? 

 

 The player meta will always sniff out the most optimal build. The most optimal build will inevitably revolve around killing the most powerful enemies as quickly as possible.

Again; Sweeping generalisation. 

- What If I wanted to kill numerous weak enemies? (and didn't have a damage frame)

- What If I wanted to counter the weaknesses of a weapon rather than add to it's strengths 

- What if there were utilities that helped with other things, like vamprisim or a fear proc? 

 

You know what the new player meta will be? ROF and reload, both of which ultimately increase DPS. Remove those too? Ammo, which ultimately increases sustained DPS. Remove ammo capacity mods? Golly, what mods are left? Uh... Eagle Eye? Something that helps you hit distant targets, thus dealing more damage to them? :o

 

Straws, Straws. At this point it doesn't matter. Can you make a better weapon than everyone else with an optimal build? Yes. Will the optimal build be so powerful that it's a must have and players can't choose otherwise? Absolutely not. 

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For the parkour I wouldn't say that removing the acceleration is the best way to put it, rather it should add, or remove, from the actual speed depending on your current speed and direction. In fact I think the directional melee already does that, instead of the way with all other parkour aspects we lose all speed or momentum and then accelerate to ridiculous speeds.

I however get that it isn't as simple as just saying that it should follow these physics and can respect if this will take quite some time.

Oh and for Simon's sake let us interrupt our animations!

 

For the pure damage mods (not just serration, also split chamber, elementals and physical dmg mods) I would like to see them either on par with other mods like reload and pure status chance mods (these in particular needs a buff) or a version that gives some negative stats as well to make up for it.

In fact most mods should give about the same increase in sustained dps, however, I know you can't take into account things like accuracy since that differs a lot from player to player, and should still be something you should consider installing if you have trouble hitting, or is having a too easy time hitting.

 

And lastly for the warframe abilities, I use abilities as I find them useful, some abilities just doesn't really aim for an offensive approach, and some nearly doesn't work in actual combat (looking at you Worm Hole, although I know it can be used for repositioning and getting to vantage points), and serves more as an ease of traversal then anything else. There of course will be abilities I use more than others, for instance on my valkyr, my most played warframe, I rarely use warcry, since I don't feel the bonus from it is good for the way I play her, with perhaps the exception of when I use a very slow melee, still since I don't use steamline or fleeting it's a costy power for about 10 or 12 seconds of faster attack speed, funny to use with ridiculously fast weapons though. but her other abilities i use fairly often, especially paralysis, and even more so after I got the augment for it. The number of uses, however, I feel, for me, is tied a lot to the cost of the power and honestly I think warframe abilities could improve in this aspect, more specifically balance the cost of the power to a level that makes sense for the power and not to which number key you press to activate it.

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I'd like to add some thoughts on damage and their mods.

 

First, it's obvious, that most of the veteran players would be upset if their investment is not compensated if DE will remove direct damage mods. It's also obvious, that with ranking up the weapon to lvl 30, the total mod rankup is not in sync, maxing serration/hornet strike/etc. is much harder than any of the weapons. To add another problem is that a player can use the same mod for all of his weapons.

 

My idea is the following (some points are versions of the same thoughts):

 

* Create weapon tiers. Every weapon will have a starting tier (it's basically in the game, just tied only to mastery).

* Each weapon tier will have a max damage cap. If you rank up your weapon to lvl 30, you'll be at that tier's max dmg.

* To move up a tier, you'll need XP. On higher tiers, a lot of XP.

* Each forma should add a nice amount of XP to the tier mechanism

* Maybe some crafting would be also needed to rank up the weapon.

* To add other customization options the tier bonuses would be different (e.g.: crit chance increase instead of damage, etc.)

* Direct damage mods (even corrupted ones) should be refunded with carefully calculated amounts of XP's.

* Maybe the dual stat / corrupted ones could be instead nerfed to a level where they aren't essential for builds

* The elemental mods should CONVERT the damage type, not add to them. Status effects, however, can add more damage over time (burning, toxic, electric etc.)

* Someone here suggested that damage type mods should only move the balance towards the specific damage type (impact, piercing, slash) instead of adding to that. I like this idea, it'd be awesome to throw this into the mix (add up all three values for total damage, and the mod will only increase one type, decreasing the other two to get the same total).

 

This way even lower tier weapons can be ranked up to a level where they are viable. Of course, when the tier rank-up happens, the weapon should not lose it's previous tier's max damage, only mod points are zeroed, but the mods you need to put back will be most likely utility/status mods.

 

Don't know, for example, if DE servers are tracking every player's every weapons total XP. It'd be cool if they did, because this way the refunds could include those stats, so their most used weapons could be as effective as they were with damage mods.

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I'm very fond that you seem to consider it a rivalry, but really; You were talking rubbish from the beginning. 

 

"it's human nature too..." Gross over-generalization. Speak for yourself. Not to mention how stupid the maths were. "5% or 500% people will always choose more damage" Are you sure? Are you absolutely sure? 

 

 

Again; Sweeping generalisation. 

- What If I wanted to kill numerous weak enemies? (and didn't have a damage frame)

- What If I wanted to counter the weaknesses of a weapon rather than add to it's strengths 

- What if there were utilities that helped with other things, like vamprisim or a fear proc? 

 

You know what the new player meta will be? ROF and reload, both of which ultimately increase DPS. Remove those too? Ammo, which ultimately increases sustained DPS. Remove ammo capacity mods? Golly, what mods are left? Uh... Eagle Eye? Something that helps you hit distant targets, thus dealing more damage to them? :o

 

Straws, Straws. At this point it doesn't matter. Can you make a better weapon than everyone else with an optimal build? Yes. Will the optimal build be so powerful that it's a must have and players can't choose otherwise? Absolutely not. 

+1 Innocent and my point all along, well spoken.

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+1 Innocent and my point all along, well spoken.

Really? I'm not that good at writing. In real life you can just give the 'you're mistaken' look and people will correct themselves. On the forums you have to somehow make everything obvious (which I naturally skip over, because it seemed too obvious to need writing. My Grades in school essays were very inconsistent for this very reason, as were teacher opinions on my intelligence) or else people will ignore things/pick at holes that aren't really there. Plus I like a very messy 'fix it when you notice it' Which'd work if there was one multi-talented guy working on all the numbers; But DE isn't like that (I'd assume). Unlike more respected members of the forums (notionphil, Diabloursus etc) I don't want to take on one problem at a time; thus everything seems far stupider than it actually is, because there's so much of it that are semi-dependent on one-another. One item won't work without another changing, and many people like facehugger don't seem to think I know that. 

 

The 'damage mods' Topic is extremely difficult to talk about because there are so many factors.  So many ways of doing it. So many reasons to do it or to not fix it in a certain way. Trust me when I say: 'Damage mods need to change'. They do. Do you think removing/nerfing them will get rid of progression(s)? There are ways to do either without getting rid of progression(s).

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the small adjustment made to pick ups for me would be to be able to look at a drop and know what it is instead of the all mighty orange. orange can be nueral sensor, argon and etc. i hate seeing an orange drop in the distance as i never know if i should make the effort to run over there as it is a huge let down to get my 10 billionth alloy plate....

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Keeping mods that are universally applicable to dealing damage won't change that. Changing the nature of the questions will.

 

The less each power, mod, and weapon are seen to be all answers for all situations, (as pure damage mods do, imo) the more room there is to grow.

 

The target of removing Serration and the damage mods is not to stop players from going for damage, it is to make all mod slots actually accessible. Serration and multishot are the only mods that you find on just about every single build ever. No one would ever remove one of them and replace them with another mod and claim that they did it to make their weapon perform better. Elemental mods may be present on every weapon as well, but they still let you choose which combination you want to take.

A weapon's purpose is to deal damage, so obviously players want to maximise that, just as you say, so you are also correct to say that trying to stop players from going for damage is not possible.

What can and should be done, however, is to allow players to choose themselves how they want to do that by giving more viable options, which Serration and multishot impede as essential mods. Slapping all of your elemental damage mods into your weapon should be possible, but it shouldn't be the only viable option there is.

 

Keeping mods that are universally applicable to dealing damage won't change that. Changing the nature of the questions will.

 

The less each power, mod, and weapon are seen to be all answers for all situations, (as pure damage mods do, imo) the more room there is to grow.

 

 

after ~2000 of votes i'm practically disappointed in the 40% of voters that don't want a properly working parkur...

 

if they admit  that they use only the 4th ability they fear that they will get a cooldowns for them.

and that's why its 2# answer have the most votes.

 

gamers are not honest. IF THEY WILL LOSE SOMETHING USEFUL IN BEING HONEST!

 

 

Do you think pickups (orbs and ammo) need a revision?
  1. bullet_star_rated.png Yes, they definitely need a complete revision. (625 votes [33.07%])

Rethink this for a while and consider guns like the Glaxion. It's a really cool concept, but the ammo efficiency is just horrible. If you slap an ammo mutation on it, then the already atrocious DPS is even lower now. 

Wow didn't even need to repeat myself. Thank you players for assuring me that there area those thinking of the health of the game!

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For the grabbing enemies thingy:

 

Hell yeah! Even frames with kinetic abilities (Mag, Banshee, Zephy comes into my mind first) SHOULD BE ALLOWED to pull, push, blow away cryo/fuel barrels. When I was playing Mag the first time I was really annoyed that I can't grab a fuel barrel and throw it into the mass. All of the status effects could be added (acid barrels for corrosive, radioactive canisters, you name it).

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Whether I use all abilities on a warframe or only some varies by warframe. For some warframes, I use all of the abilities. For others, I only use some. I use all on Ember, 3/4 on Vauban, 3/4 on Rhino, 3/4 on Zephyr, all on Volt, 3/4 on Loki, 2/4 on Nyx, etc.

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More damage overall, damage caps for non-void missions.

As far as I know do a lot of people wish more end game content (like a second star chart with more powerful enemies) but also despise players who "invade" missions on planets like Mercury and ruin the game experience of new players.

My solution would be damage caps. With caps everyone could enjoy "low level" content and wouldn't ruin the experience of new players.

 

About the damage...

We seriously need a place for higher damage numbers. As I mentioned before, a second star chart would be the best thing that could possibly happen. Every "late game" player could experience the whole game on a new level. It would feel like a "New Game +", if anyone can relate. And c'mon guys, there is a place that is already mentioned, it has a blue sun.

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Do you think Sliding, Coptering, and/or Wall Flinging should be changed in some way?

 

I would find it better when Sliding and Coptering would be more combat orientated here, for example knocking someone from their feet when you slide through them. Coptering more to engage your enemies quicker and more effective, currently you most likely shoot past them then to acutally hit them.

In average the movement and acrobatics in this game should be more polished and more versatile then they currently are.

 

Would you grab enemies if you could?

 

I would love to grap my enemies, using them as shield or bashing them around as a weapon would be awesome (or just throwing them to the next enemie or wall) i can just say Valkyr, Hysteria, Rage, Blood and Gore everywhere.

 

On average, do you use all of your Warframe’s abilities?

 

I find a fairly large deal of the abilities are close to none usefull in this game either in lacking damage or just ineffective in whatever they should be doing and a waste of energy in that moment.

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Coptering needs to die. It is long overdue. You simply cannot expect the game to be taken seriously at this point with such blatant glitches/bugginess/exploitable and cost free shenanigans so blatantly obvious

 

Melee weapons/Melee in general is terrible in this game, mainly because everyone equips the same 3 weapons. Not to fight with, but for stamina free exploitation excessive distance travel shenanigans. This single bug is what has caused/exposed the most problems in the game. Remember the 2 minute Nova speed runs?

 

Sometimes the rest of DE needs to let Scott be Scott. This is what Rebecca is for, bringing feedback back to DE after.

 

I will be more than happy to personally take credit and responsibility for the death of Coptering. IT WAS ME THAT DID IT

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