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[DE]Drew

January 16Th: Community Hot Topics!

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I think it would be neat if sliding/coptering was all but replaced by wallrunning and general running and jumping.

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On the topic of sliding and coptering, yes it was a funny thing at first "hey guys look im zibbity zooming around" but at this point everyone knows about it, and its not a joke anymore people do it constantly. I like to see the tilesets instead of flinging past them to keep up with my team. I think a slide should be on the ground, melee should not launch you a million miles an hour, and we should have more refined parkour. It was a funny thing to learn at first yes, but now the joke isn't a joke. We are space ninjas fighting for the galaxy not playing on waterslides. Ninjas are stealthy, not Sonic the hedgehog (Although sonic is amazing).

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I hope you guys will consider removing Serration and damage mods anyways since a lot of people want that. The people voting for "They are fine" are probably people who don't want to adapt to changes. 

 

Having to use requirements on your weapon(s) so you can kill enemies past level 5 is not modding, you know.

 

Things like adding extra ammo, larger clip size, faster reload speed, etc is how modding should be. Changing aspects of a weapon(s).

 

It'd be quite convenient having the damage built into the weapon so you could make more flexible builds on your weapons.

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Do you think Sliding, Coptering, and/or Wall Flinging should be changed in some way?

 

Yes, I believe all these things could use tweaks.

 

First of all, the most pressing issue with movement is stamina. If you sprint, slide/copter/flip, you are losing a lot of stamina which doesn't give you much freedom when you want to melee. Especially since sprinting is incredibly slow and uses up a lot of stamina. This can be fixed either by rescaling the stamina drain from movement, or removing melee's dependability on stamina for attacking.

 

Second, the wall running/jumping could use changing. Right now, when you want to run on a wall the motion is static and you only run in one direction. If you choose to jump you are only vaulted forward. One tweak that can be implemented is allow jumping from wall to wall if you don't hold the button. e.g. currently if you jump next to a wall and press n hold the button again you wall run; the change is if you jump next to a wall and press the button again you use the wall to jump back and if there's another wall behind you can press the button again and jump higher. This can help clear a hallway by zig-zaging in the air by jumping from one wall to the other while still moving forward.

 

And while we're on the topic, can you please just remove the "front-roll when you land" thing? It's really annoying, not very pleasing to the eye and most of the time does not work properly. I realize it's supposed to convey momentum, but it just looks stupid when I'm jumping from a 1.5m height and doing a front flip.

Do you think pickups (orbs and ammo) need a revision?

 

Drop more ammo, that's all I can think of. Will add more later.

What is your opinion on pure damage mods (for example, Serration)?

 

I think serration should be removed and have it as a passive ability for every weapon that levels up as you progress in level with the weapon. There can be a cap on level 30 and the damage can be increased even further, as I explain below.

 

What I believe will be the best fix for weapons currently is the introduction of skill trees for weapons. For each level on a weapon you gain a point to use on the skill tree. This can apply to not only damage, but every other mechanic related to the gun. You can maximize your gun's range, fire-rate, reduce recoil, increase ammo capacity, magazine capacity, etc.

 

This way, mod slots can be utilized for specializing in damage and crit/stat increase. Elemental mods, dual stat mods, slash/puncture/impact mods can still be utilized in a more liberating way.

 

To recap, mods are for damage, skill trees for utility.

Would you grab enemies if you could?

 

It depends on what I'm playing. I can't see myself using it much if I'm in a full squad, but if I'm playing solo it would be interesting to be able to use a grinner as a human shield. Or for the heavier set frame, grab an enemy and throw them into a crowd of rushing enemies.

On average, do you use all of your Warframe’s abilities?

 

I suppose it depends on the frame, but with the way Warframe abilities work I can almost never fully utilize all of my frame's abilities.

 

Which isn't a bad thing! This is simply specialization! I don't mind trading some damage for more duration on CC, or increasing range by reducing strength, etc.

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I think coptering should be removed provided that running, sliding and wall-jumping are given substantial boosts to make up for coptering's removal. The problem for me regarding coptering is that if you want to keep up with a group that relies on coptering to speed through, you HAVE to use one of the faster melee weapons; you're effectively punished in such groups for using heavy weapons simply because you can't keep up, and since you can't keep up, the enemies will most likely be wiped out by the time you get to your destination and thus defeats the purpose of a heavy weapon's high damage. 

 

Coptering makes the usage of heavy melee weapons only feasible in defense and other infinite missions, where mobility is not as important, and makes the use of heavy melee weapons impractical in other situations. There's only two potential options I can see to fix this: the first is the aforementioned removal-but-boost-running/sliding thing, and the other is to boost the slide-slash speed of heavy weapons (which would potentially break the game in the other direction, making heavy weapons more practical to use than light ones because of the speedier slide-slash swing). 

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[...]

Coptering makes the usage of heavy melee weapons only feasible in defense and other infinite missions, where mobility is not as important, and makes the use of heavy melee weapons impractical in other situations. There's only two potential options I can see to fix this: the first is the aforementioned removal-but-boost-running/sliding thing, and the other is to boost the slide-slash speed of heavy weapons (which would potentially break the game in the other direction, making heavy weapons more practical to use than light ones because of the speedier slide-slash swing). 

Lol, in endless missions you don't use your melee, ever. They are way much too risky and not rewarding to use them for fighting.

Only in a defense you can use some melee to collect all items, but here we go:

A fast one is better than a slow one.

 

Coptering is a part of the parkour system in Warframe und there is only 1 way to remove it without to nerf the whole parkour system once again (yeah, they already nerfed it ... ):

 

 

Allow people to move as fast, simple and precise as with melee without melee if you want to remove/nerf the movement component. This does not mean that you simply increase the basemovement-speed, we need also some kind of a dash ability for every frame which works accelerating, which does not depend on the environment and is completly free to use (no energy costs!).

 

 

If you add such a mechanism, I'm for a rework of the melee movement.

 

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For the love of quality they should just burn the first community question and do the movement/parkour rework... and the first step is to throw everything that is now in the trash bin

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Well I think that weapon mods should modify a weapon in a realistic sort-of way. Instead of Serration, Make something that does the same, but have a trade-off. Also make a name that makes sense, anyways, I think that the Mod system should merely tweak the weapon, and have no ranks(COMPLETELY debatable), so they should only have use for Utility and/or Elemental effects. Make it so that the highest stat of a weapon IS the elemental damage.

Powers Need to Scale, or at least make them relevant to how much health your enemies have so they always help(up for debate as well)in a bind. Ultimates that do damage should be changed so that they always kill and use up ALL of your energy, or stun, stun is always good. :)

Movement is a little sticky, I think the physics of the game need to be changed for that, in what way, I don't know--- Just don't make them sticky!(Yes Sherlock, that's also up for Debate)

Grabbing enemies sounds judo-flippin awesome, screw the ppl who say "the game doesn't need it", The game (community) WANTS it. There's a more efficient way to kill everybody? **** that, I wanna be awesome! Oh yeah, I also think there needs to be a "take cover" mechanic somewhere in this game at sometime, but that's off-topic. There should also be a quick melee that just slaps the enemy with the weapon you currently have out (i.e. Rifles and stuff), also off topic.

Oh and to you guys who just say "NO" to grabbing enemies and stuff, EXPLAIN and DON'T say the game DOESN'T NEED it, some people WANT it. Because **** efficiency.

EDIT Numbah two: ...and for the love of all that is Holy/in the game, make sprint go as fast as volts ability, and boost volts ability. I don't wanna come up with a personal keybind JUST to go fast, its an inconvenience! Sprint (in real life) has a reason, and that's to go fast! Anybody who disagrees with this, plz say WHY, and again, DON'T SAY ITS BECAUSE THE GAME DOESN'T NEED IT, not everybody is up for killing/moving efficiently. Sorry for the caps, but it just sets me off sometimes. XD

Oh yeah, I should probably say everything in this comment is debatable, cause I really can tell anybody what to do, but I still STRONGLY SUGGEST all of these things.

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Lol, in endless missions you don't use your melee, ever. They are way much too risky and not rewarding to use them for fighting.

Only in a defense you can use some melee to collect all items, but here we go:

A fast one is better than a slow one.

 

Coptering is a part of the parkour system in Warframe und there is only 1 way to remove it without to nerf the whole parkour system once again (yeah, they already nerfed it ... ):

 

I can use darn good melee weapons in endless missions, though not up to the very high end. For example a well modded Scoliac can have kinda AoE effect if used correctly. Glaive can be also useful sometimes. Or the Dragon Nikana.

 

My ideas on this topic:

 

Coptering is a different stuff, I don't want it to be removed completely, but someting has to be done, because

1. Most people are using the exact same melee weapons only because of their coptering utility

2. It is awfully uncontrollable as a movement option (if you compare it to the famous bug-based movements like bunny hopping or rocket jumping)

3. It's completely against the ninja feel (for me at least)

 

So, it (and for that regard, air melee also) should have to be momentum based, not animation based.

 

There is a lot of potential in the core of the movement system. We have:

- walking/strafing w/o running enabled

- jumping

- crouching

- melee attacking (+ chage attack possibly getting back to warframe)

 

The combinations of these are numerous, and often contextual (wall running, sliding, valuting, coptering, ground slamming). The only problem is that they are not controllable, or at least problematic to control, which is required for skill based gameplay.

 

If a system implemented around gaining momentum (either by jumping off the wall, or sliding, even vaulting), further tuned by mods, a skilled player can get a good speed increase, therefore no actual coptering is needed.

 

The actual coptering (originally sliding melee attack) and the directional "air" melee should be based on the same thing: the target. When I want to air melee a drone, I actually point my crosshairs to the enemy, so the jump distance should be derived from that distance, not just a constant parameter. It is already implemented in Loki's and Ash's teleport abilities. Same goes to the sliding melee, in their current state these movements are eliminating Excalibur's Slash Dash, Super Jump, Rhino's Charge, Zephyr's Tail Wind & Dive Bomb.

 

DE can however add melee damage based on the frame's weight and momentum, because it could be a devastating factor, not just a fancy movement option. Of course the the mentioned abilities needed to be revisited, my take on those would be a power based enhancement on top of the general mobility options. Slash Dash, for example would add damage bonus to the melee weapon AND a fixed distance (again enhanced by mods) within Excal' would damage every enemy it comes across (like if it had a 30m punch through weapon), only it would be more controllable, because it would have effect only on sliding/air melee. Same goes to the other frame abilities.

 

There is the ground slam AoE attack which is really awkward nowadays, since DE introduced the air melee - it should be a charge attack activated airborne (synergizing with Zephyr's Dive Bomb).

 

Limiting factors could be the frame's own movement abilities. Simple speed is just wrong, a basic acceleration scale would do much better. For example a fast frame, like Volt is generally a light frame, so it should accelerate or decelerate faster, but its momentum is lower, so at its top speed it gets less momentum while Rhino could do it slower, but when it comes to knockdowns, it helps him to stay on his feet. The top speed should not be much different, but there should be a cap.

 

TL;DR - polish the actual system shine, make it more controllable, replace simple speed with momentum / acceleration / max speed, and revisit movement based abilites to make them actually improve on top of movement options along with melee (synergy with Excalibur's Slash Dash, Super Jump, Rhino's Charge, Zephyr's Tail Wind & Dive Bomb).

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I can use darn good melee weapons in endless missions, though not up to the very high end. For example a well modded Scoliac can have kinda AoE effect if used correctly. Glaive can be also useful sometimes. Or the Dragon Nikana.

 

My ideas on this topic:

 

Coptering is a different stuff, I don't want it to be removed completely, but someting has to be done, because

1. Most people are using the exact same melee weapons only because of their coptering utility

2. It is awfully uncontrollable as a movement option (if you compare it to the famous bug-based movements like bunny hopping or rocket jumping)

3. It's completely against the ninja feel (for me at least)

 

So, it (and for that regard, air melee also) should have to be momentum based, not animation based.

 

There is a lot of potential in the core of the movement system. We have:

- walking/strafing w/o running enabled

- jumping

- crouching

- melee attacking (+ chage attack possibly getting back to warframe)

 

The combinations of these are numerous, and often contextual (wall running, sliding, valuting, coptering, ground slamming). The only problem is that they are not controllable, or at least problematic to control, which is required for skill based gameplay.

 

If a system implemented around gaining momentum (either by jumping off the wall, or sliding, even vaulting), further tuned by mods, a skilled player can get a good speed increase, therefore no actual coptering is needed.

 

The actual coptering (originally sliding melee attack) and the directional "air" melee should be based on the same thing: the target. When I want to air melee a drone, I actually point my crosshairs to the enemy, so the jump distance should be derived from that distance, not just a constant parameter. It is already implemented in Loki's and Ash's teleport abilities. Same goes to the sliding melee, in their current state these movements are eliminating Excalibur's Slash Dash, Super Jump, Rhino's Charge, Zephyr's Tail Wind & Dive Bomb.

 

DE can however add melee damage based on the frame's weight and momentum, because it could be a devastating factor, not just a fancy movement option. Of course the the mentioned abilities needed to be revisited, my take on those would be a power based enhancement on top of the general mobility options. Slash Dash, for example would add damage bonus to the melee weapon AND a fixed distance (again enhanced by mods) within Excal' would damage every enemy it comes across (like if it had a 30m punch through weapon), only it would be more controllable, because it would have effect only on sliding/air melee. Same goes to the other frame abilities.

 

There is the ground slam AoE attack which is really awkward nowadays, since DE introduced the air melee - it should be a charge attack activated airborne (synergizing with Zephyr's Dive Bomb).

 

Limiting factors could be the frame's own movement abilities. Simple speed is just wrong, a basic acceleration scale would do much better. For example a fast frame, like Volt is generally a light frame, so it should accelerate or decelerate faster, but its momentum is lower, so at its top speed it gets less momentum while Rhino could do it slower, but when it comes to knockdowns, it helps him to stay on his feet. The top speed should not be much different, but there should be a cap.

 

TL;DR - polish the actual system shine, make it more controllable, replace simple speed with momentum / acceleration / max speed, and revisit movement based abilites to make them actually improve on top of movement options along with melee (synergy with Excalibur's Slash Dash, Super Jump, Rhino's Charge, Zephyr's Tail Wind & Dive Bomb).

To 1.)

Because melee isn't viable against 2 factions (Corpus+Corrupted) after a certain lvl (~40) and if you continue playing, than melee starts getting more and more risky and less rewarding against the other two factions.

Yes you can use it, but after a certain point every melee weapons does not enough dmg, does not enough CC, but the utility will not change. 

 

To 2.)

People controll it, look in Europe Conclave, than you see how real melee movement control looks like. It is hard to learn, but the parkour system is way too slow only with jumping, wallrunning and all this stuff. But this elements are precise, together with the melee movement you have a fast and precise parkour.

 

To 3.)

I feel ninja, if I stay 20+ seconds in the air , if I can jump from wall to wall to the other end of the map and look how elegant my warframe uses his weapon.

 

I'm not against a change of the melee movement, but I will not support this change as long as the parkour system will be nerfed by this change.

And I don't know what I should say about your suggestion ... Probably it could work :P .

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To 2.)

People controll it, look in Europe Conclave, than you see how real melee movement control looks like. It is hard to learn, but the parkour system is way too slow only with jumping, wallrunning and all this stuff. But this elements are precise, together with the melee movement you have a fast and precise parkour.

To 3.)

I feel ninja, if I stay 20+ seconds in the air , if I can jump from wall to wall to the other end of the map and look how elegant my warframe uses his weapon.

I have done moves like these (checked the conclave vids), because I like to experiment stuff. I spent hours in void secret rooms or in the derelict climbing, jumping, wallruning. But that doesn't mean it's consistent and controllable. It feels awkward, often takes directions which feels random, slips on some surfaces which meant to be climbable, sometimes wall connections or ledges throws you away uncontrollably, etc., etc. I only want it to be reliable, because it helps the evolution of the game. Make it easy to learn, hard to master.

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I believe wall attacks are pointless, since you have to be next to wall and time it just right to hit an enemy. I have to say slide and ground slam attacks are the most effective at dispatching enemies. Just my opinion though.

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I believe wall attacks are pointless, since you have to be next to wall and time it just right to hit an enemy. I have to say slide and ground slam attacks are the most effective at dispatching enemies. Just my opinion though.

 

Wall attacks struggles exactly why every other parkour elements are considered or felt wrong in Warframe: the lack of control. Basically I can't target and launch myself from the wall to an enemy or a specific place.

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I use a lot more powers than I used to. the augments are helping to use old skills as well (soul survivor). however there are still a few powers that are more fun than usefull, and some that are just bad no matter what.

 

The worst are powers that you have to nerf with corrupted mods to get the other powers to be good.

 

the prime example of this is excalibur, I have eff and power maxed, which gives me -87.5% duration. its good for #4 but means 1 and 2 aren't great. I get about 5 ft with slash dash, and radial blind is a novelty item at best. the guys usually recover before I do.

 

I know it is my choice to minimize durration but it makes radial javlin so much better that it feels worth it.

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Concerning dmg mods. I think that they should be removed unless they are something like heavy caliber where u have trade off for dmg. A Mod that is installed on every weapon should not exist cause its not a "mod" - it does not alter they feel of the weapon.

 

There are ideas that rankup should increase dmg.. Thats irrational for me. How the hell frame or account level up can affect the weapon?

 

If people needs to increase dmg i personally am for another idea on how to do it - not that my idea is better than others :P. Just diffrent.

My idea consists of several accusitions:

1. Pure dmg mods should be removed - mod that is on every weapon is not a mod

2. Damage itself should not increase with weapon's level. Weapon's level tells how long have you been using the weapon. So it affects reload, recoil, accuracy. A rifle should not hit harder just because it has 10 years on its back, but in right hands can feel a bit "less raw".

3. Increase damage on weapon can be passed to formas - ppl dont like to take away bonuses, so let's alter them. Forming a weapon can also mean to alter insides, like better barrel, string or smth like that, so it can be better.

3.a Forma should still polarize weapon.

3.b Forma should also increase weapons dmg for lets say 10%.

3.c There should be cap for formas to example 4 or 5.

3.d There should also be a way to use forma without polarizing weapon - some builds require more diffrentiate in polarities.

4.(optional) lvl of weapon can increase it's accuracy, recoil and reload speed as per "player learns to use this weapon" so at max lvl "player has learned how to use this weapon"

 

By this idea players would have 1 more mod slot (or not if DE will take it :D ) and also have some dmg bonus based on formas used.

In addition it iss another forma sink :)

 

 

About warframe powers... Im trying to have fun with every power. But for example saryns contagnion is too short. I have to mod duration  sky high for it to use. but than my other abilities are bad. Another power is saryn's venom - idea is cool, but its dmg... lower enemies dies too fast and higher just laugh at it.

 

 

Grabbing enemies is a cool feature. But personally i think it is in the same box as granades. On 1 of the first dev streams you have said that there won't be granades because game dynamics would be too slow, peopl would just throw nades. Grabbing an enemy also makes the game slower. 

There is an exception to it - grabbing and enemy like in prototype would not affect speed of gameplay but.. i dont visualize a skinny mag holding a big bombard in her hand. Well.. i do, but it's rediculous.

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I think the coptering, sliding and sprinting needs some changes, so that we wkn't have to sprint then slide. Sprint speed animation should be like a sprinter running and with weapons being held, they just need to show something like a wind boost them slightly faster.

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