Malikon Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 -snip- It seems to me I am exceptionally good at reading between the lines of your words, sir. How does a change to something you don't have and can't get affect you again? There is literally no other way to interpret your first paragraph of reply as anything other than petty behavior, as there is 0 evidence of ANY way that a change to Excal P could possibly affect you or your gameplay. In response to your second paragraph, you say it is a personal consequence? I present to you this counter argument: "If you do not cease presenting these ridiculous claims, I will quit the game". Now there is a personal consequence to me in this argument and you must stop because you are now affecting me. Sounds silly, right? Thats because the only personal consequences for you here are self-inflicted, and why should any community (even a sub-community like founders) lose an opportunity because of self-threats from an unrelated party? You are again incorrect. I'm not lumped in with the "You cant have it" crowd, because I honestly don't give a crap. The only time I care about what happens with Excal Prime is when I start catching hell in game just for using him in a match. Do you have any idea how annoying it is to be playing a game and having fun just to have an entitled player start preaching to me about how I'm cancer and should /wrists because I have a founder exclusive that they want? Do you think its fun listening to all the pissing and moaning that happens when I get into a game where one or more of my teammates have this frame of mind? This isnt about being foolish in a discussion, its about so many people seeing something they want, getting denied by the providing company, and going on a whining spree because they didn't get what they wanted. Granted, I may seem a little unreasonable, but to be honest people that rationalize their thoughts on an exclusive item the way you have in this thread aren't showing an ounce of consideration for anything but themselves and should be ashamed. /rant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagPrime Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 I can only speak for myself, but I've been calling for that for a LONG time for every single variant of everything (such as combining all the Latos and Boltos into skins and model changes for the base Lato weapon). And I'd be okay with them being skins as well - I just want consistency for all Primes, be they Warframe, Weapon or companion. I'm not okay with "You get a buff, you get a buf, you don't get a buff, you get a buff, ehhh...not you but you get a buff..." To me, that's unreasonable and there really is not justification for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monster-T Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 (edited) Yeah no, DE can't release him. We've been over this. And saying that because we can't get him, then he has to stay trash tier is petty. Yeah, we have discussed this many times. Excal Prime is in the same tier as normal Excal - and considered that he is getting reworked and still calling his tier "trash" is... a bit senseless. You call it petty to beeing against statwise better exclusives and I call it blind to be for better exclusives. Two different opinions... we should get over it. This literally means that you think it shouldn't be buffed because it's exclusive. I'm sorru You've go it! No need for a sorry. Edited June 8, 2015 by Monster-T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBrsrkr Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Yeah, we have discussed this many times. Excal Prime is in the same tier as normal Excal - and considered that he is getting reworked and still calling his tier "trash" is... a bit senseless. You call it petty to beeing against statwise better exclusives and I call it blind to be for better exclusives. Two different opinions... we should get over it. You've go it! No need for a sorry. You can't be serious. You really think it shouldn't be buffed because you can't have it? That's petty and entitled, Monster T, and you know it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagPrime Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Yeah, we have discussed this many times. Excal Prime is in the same tier as normal Excal - and considered that he is getting reworked and still calling his tier "trash" is... a bit senseless. You call it petty to beeing against statwise better exclusives and I call it blind to be for better exclusives. Two different opinions... we should get over it. You've go it! No need for a sorry. Since Excal's rework isn't live, we really can't say if he still is in the trash tier. (as far as I know it's not live.) Why the issue with someone having something you don't? That's life. Someone will always have something you don't. It's not killing you or hurting you in anyway. Putting all Prime on the same level is logical and a positive step, regardless of their exclusivity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0zryel Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 (edited) No. You can't have an exclusive like Excal Prime, and then buff it too. That's simply not fair to non-founders. Agreed. Oh and sadly this thread will get close soon... This subject have always led nowhere so expect that your request of Excaliber Prime or any request on that subject to be ignore... There are more none-founders players than founders... Besides Excaliber will get a new make over and cool powers I suppose they would transfer to your prime... Unless they leave that one as a relic of the past and they do the new changes to Exc so they can create a new prime one and end this silly dispute... New players get new exc prime, founders can keep their relic, problem soulve right? lol Edited June 8, 2015 by 0zryel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagPrime Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 No. You can't have an exclusive like Excal Prime, and then buff it too. That's simply not fair to non-founders. fair is a childish concept when applied to dozens to thousands of people. Nothing will ever be fair to everyone - someone will always be left out - someone will always get the nasty end of the stick. Saying DE shouldn't improve on something because it isn't "fair" is like saying people at the top of organ transplant lists have to die because it's not "fair" to the other people lower down. Nothing is ever fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malikon Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Agreed. Oh and sadly this thread will get close soon... This subject have always led nowhere so expect that your request of Excaliber Prime or any request on that subject to be ignore... There are more none-founders players than founders... Besides Excaliber will get a new make over and cool powers I suppose they would transfer to your prime... Unless they leave that one as a relic of the past and they do the new changes to Exc so they can create a new prime one and end this silly dispute... New players get new exc prime, founders can keep their relic, problem soulve right? lol The butthurt is strong in this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceryk Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 (edited) I doubt it will ever happen and it would be unfair if it did. Excalibur Prime exists for one reason and one reason alone: Bragging Rights. It would simply be unfair to the community as a whole to buff him and not the standard version because it is impossible to get Excalibur Prime. And as of right now, most people really don't care that they can't get him because of the fact that there isn't an advantage to having Excalibur Prime over Excalibur. And it is in the Dev's interest to keep it that way because that majority that doesn't care would suddenly start caring and make a lot of noise. The difference between Excalibur Prime and Frost Prime not being available is that Frost Prime will be back at some point, they've just got so much crap in the game Prime Wise that they are running out of place in the void to put prime parts until they figure out how they're changing the Star Chart and reward structure of the game. You are again incorrect. I'm not lumped in with the "You cant have it" crowd, because I honestly don't give a crap. The only time I care about what happens with Excal Prime is when I start catching hell in game just for using him in a match. Do you have any idea how annoying it is to be playing a game and having fun just to have an entitled player start preaching to me about how I'm cancer and should /wrists because I have a founder exclusive that they want? Do you think its fun listening to all the pissing and moaning that happens when I get into a game where one or more of my teammates have this frame of mind? And that's why it's in the best interests of the game to NOT buff it. Right now, those people are a minority because they are idiots jealous about not being able to get a skin that doesn't even look that much different than the standard one. Change the stats and the number of people making noise about it will go up and people who have it may not even want to play it just so they don't have to deal with the attacks. Edited June 8, 2015 by Ceryk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monster-T Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 (edited) It seems to me I am exceptionally good at reading between the lines of your words, sir. How does a change to something you don't have and can't get affect you again? There is literally no other way to interpret your first paragraph of reply as anything other than petty behavior, as there is 0 evidence of ANY way that a change to Excal P could possibly affect you or your gameplay. In response to your second paragraph, you say it is a personal consequence? I present to you this counter argument: "If you do not cease presenting these ridiculous claims, I will quit the game". Now there is a personal consequence to me in this argument and you must stop because you are now affecting me. Sounds silly, right? Thats because the only personal consequences for you here are self-inflicted, and why should any community (even a sub-community like founders) lose an opportunity because of self-threats from an unrelated party? You are again incorrect. I'm not lumped in with the "You cant have it" crowd, because I honestly don't give a crap. The only time I care about what happens with Excal Prime is when I start catching hell in game just for using him in a match. Do you have any idea how annoying it is to be playing a game and having fun just to have an entitled player start preaching to me about how I'm cancer and should /wrists because I have a founder exclusive that they want? Do you think its fun listening to all the pissing and moaning that happens when I get into a game where one or more of my teammates have this frame of mind? This isnt about being foolish in a discussion, its about so many people seeing something they want, getting denied by the providing company, and going on a whining spree because they didn't get what they wanted. Granted, I may seem a little unreasonable, but to be honest people that rationalize their thoughts on an exclusive item the way you have in this thread aren't showing an ounce of consideration for anything but themselves and should be ashamed. /rant. You'r not good at reading between my lines. You're just turning my words like you wish. Stop that, really, stop interpreting - just take my words as they are are - because I've never said that it will affect me gameplay wise. Never. I do say that it would affect my thoughts, my feelings, my game targets - but not the gameplay a tiniest bit. I hope this is enough evidence about how you are totally wrong about the meaning of my words. And to my second paragraph again: stop interpreting my words! Back then when I wrote that I would quit the game if they buff him over vanilla Excal it was just a freaking personal description how hard this would hit me. It was no argument because it is 100%ly subjective, just a statement. Again, take my words as they are. Period. "Now there is a personal consequence to me in this argument and you must stop because you are now affecting me. Sounds silly, right?" Yes, this does sound silly, because it shows that you dont get what I was trying to explain. When my words are affecting you, you should abondon this thread or ignore me as an consequence - just like me who would quit the game if something happens. And... what the heck are you talking about? I hope you dont think that I call founders "cancer". Of course I dont have an idea about how annoying this could be, because I dont have Excal Prime. Everyone of us just want to have fun and of course the "cancer" of fun are not founders - the "cancer" of fun are people who offending others, not matter of their reason. I'm sorry that this is happening to you - but I dont get how this should be a subject of our discussion. I dont do offend enyone (at least I try so) - I try to discuss about a topic Im very worried about. So I should be ashamed because I try to defend my freaking words against you too? Man... If you just could bring more arguments than "because nearly all other primes got buffs too so he should get it too" I will be very happy - because this is the only real valid argument pro-buff in this whole thread that is undoubtful right. My opinion is just that this argument is not enough to take a such risky step. Edited June 8, 2015 by Monster-T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malikon Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 (edited) -snip- There is no need to turn your words. You just admitted to everything I've said. This isn't a discussion about the merits of a prime or any kind of objective consistency in the game, it is about your feelings. Why should consistency (something which is necessary for a good game) be dependent on someone's feelings? That is what I am trying to get you to understand. Functioning systems (banking, games, etc) require consistency across similar things to work properly, be efficient, and possess the capability of balancing as far as intra-object interactions. All of the primes (frames and weapons) should be the peers of each other, as that is logically consistent. Yet, three prime warframes are closer to being the peer of his standard counterparts. Two of them will be fixed to rousing applause because they can be acquired, fixing the third will be a battle. This is inconsistent, and this inconsistency is defended (even lauded as NEEDED) not due to logical fact but due to feelings. Because someone(s) who has no involvement with it would feel bad if Excal Prime were given a minor stat boost or passive to be in-line with his peers. That just doesnt seem logical at all. Perhaps I should drop this as well to make sure Excal Prime isnt alone in his current state. Frost Prime is also currently not available for drop or purchase, hence he should not be fixed due to availability reasons as well. Otherwise that would be unfair to new players. Also, I must apologize. There were parts of that discussion where I was fired up due to the behavior of other folks with similar views to your own. I retract the statements made out of agitation at you, and in that I have made myself not much different than them. I am ashamed. However, I will not edit them out as I own my mistakes. Edited June 8, 2015 by Malikon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yezzik Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 That is what I am trying to get you to understand. Functioning systems (banking, games, etc) require consistency across similar things to work properly, be efficient, and possess the capability of balancing as far as intra-object interactions. All of the primes (frames and weapons) should be the peers of each other, as that is logically consistent. Yet, three prime warframes are closer to being the peer of his standard counterparts. I believe parity should be achieved by making primes purely cosmetic in part because then PvP would be easier to balance, as there would be far fewer weapons and warframes to try and balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilChaosKnight Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 So, while we are at it, can someone explain to me how buffing Excal Prime to bring him in line with other primes would harm non-founders? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagPrime Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 So, while we are at it, can someone explain to me how buffing Excal Prime to bring him in line with other primes would harm non-founders? The only thing it would harm is their feelings, far as I can tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yezzik Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 So, while we are at it, can someone explain to me how buffing Excal Prime to bring him in line with other primes would harm non-founders? As those items could only have been acquired through spending real-world money, there's become an expectation that they should always be competitive--and therefore, an expectation that whenever there's power creep, they should enjoy that creep as well. This affects the weapons more than Excalibur, to be fair, but if we started being able to earn Super-Prime Warframes (for want of a better term), there would be calls for Excal Prime to be buffed to that level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monster-T Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 (edited) There is no need to turn your words. You just admitted to everything I've said. This isn't a discussion about the merits of a prime or any kind of objective consistency in the game, it is about your feelings. Why should consistency (something which is necessary for a good game) be dependent on someone's feelings? That is what I am trying to get you to understand. Functioning systems (banking, games, etc) require consistency across similar things to work properly, be efficient, and possess the capability of balancing as far as intra-object interactions. All of the primes (frames and weapons) should be the peers of each other, as that is logically consistent. Yet, three prime warframes are closer to being the peer of his standard counterparts. Two of them will be fixed to rousing applause because they can be acquired, fixing the third will be a battle. This is inconsistent, and this inconsistency is defended (even lauded as NEEDED) not due to logical fact but due to feelings. Because someone(s) who has no involvement with it would feel bad if Excal Prime were given a minor stat boost or passive to be in-line with his peers. That just doesnt seem logical at all. Perhaps I should drop this as well to make sure Excal Prime isnt alone in his current state. Frost Prime is also currently not available for drop or purchase, hence he should not be fixed due to availability reasons as well. Otherwise that would be unfair to new players. Also, I must apologize. There were parts of that discussion where I was fired up due to the behavior of other folks with similar views to your own. I retract the statements made out of agitation at you, and in that I have made myself not much different than them. I am ashamed. However, I will not edit them out as I own my mistakes. You're not false when you say that my simple feelings dont should be subject in these topic, but my whole opinion at these isnt entirely founded on my feelings. Only these sentence about when I would quit the game was founded on feelings entirely - but I've explained that allready. I agree with you too when you say that those things recuire consistency. But otherwise the demanding of buffing him while keep him exclusive isnt consistent, because all other Primes are freely availble (frost isnt as freely available as the others, but he is at least available to everyone who is willed to pay plat for him and we know for sure that he will be available again without paying plat), which is not subjective and a matter of feelings at all. What you pro-buff people want is a part-consistency, which is actually my mainreason why Im against a buff of him over his normal version. I appreciate your apologize - I was a bit fired too, so if I've said something to harsh I'm sorry in all honesty. Edited June 8, 2015 by Monster-T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagPrime Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 As those items could only have been acquired through spending real-world money, there's become an expectation that they should always be competitive--and therefore, an expectation that whenever there's power creep, they should enjoy that creep as well. This affects the weapons more than Excalibur, to be fair, but if we started being able to earn Super-Prime Warframes (for want of a better term), there would be calls for Excal Prime to be buffed to that level. As long as he's buffed to the same standards, I have no issue with it. Honestly, like I've said before, he's a dying breed simply due to Founders not playing him or leaving the game. Whether or not he gets a buff is mute, eventually, he'll be extinct. He's a Prime, therefore he should be on par with other Primes. Unobtainable or not, the fact that DE is taking the Prime passive route means that he should receive the same treatment as other Primes. If DE decided to make all Primes skins, okay. As long as all the Primes received the same treatment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NN13 Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Buff him to be inline with the recent Primes, who have stat boost over normal counterpart - YES, not a problem. Though, then, Frost P, Ember P and Mag P should get stat boosts as well. Buff him to become better than every other Prime - NO. Though not really related to this particular thread - Buff the entire Lato and Skana series - MAYBE, but we need to remember the fact that they are starter weapons. So, my suggestion would be to release MK1 versions first. Buff only Lato Prime and Skana Prime - NO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
negativenull Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 My only opinion on this topic is that DE needs to make a decision announce it and instalock threads like this, it's nothing but the same arguments on both sides repeated over and over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valar.Morghulis Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 No, Just No. No. As long as he is exclusive he should not be better than the available version of the frame, this is a balance issue. Simply put if you want Excal Prime buffed he should get a "re-release" along with new stats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0zryel Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 (edited) I love this! I wonder how long DE will let this go on... :P Truth is I love the founders but can't help to poke at this feed the fire a laugh about it with my friends... Its always an entertaining read, before alerts or a mission :D Edited June 8, 2015 by 0zryel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bl4ckhunter Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 (edited) Nerf all other primes so they are like excal. this just on the reverse, buff the standard variants so they're like the prime ones, no frame should ever have less than 1.0 speed and volt is in dire need of a buff anyway, loki and nova are loki and nova, even if they had just 100 base energy they wouldn't be any less master race-y than they are anyway. there we made everyone happy, less strife against founders, less power creep, less volt-is-crap and you don't need to buff ash prime when it comes out (if there's a frame that needs a buff, that's definitely not ash) Buff only Lato Prime and Skana Prime - NO. well they could give it the same stats of prisma skana and release an eventual prisma lato and buff the lato prime to it's level, that would be fine Edited June 8, 2015 by bl4ckhunter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)inuyasha279 Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 You can't get Excal prime and people payed money for him so it is pay-to-win. But I do think older primes need a buff... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagPrime Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 You can't get Excal prime and people payed money for him so it is pay-to-win. But I do think older primes need a buff... It's not pay to win if the items are no longer available to purchase. If you really want to reach, then it'd be paid to win two years ago. And this is simply putting Excal Prime in line with the other Primes, not above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yezzik Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 (edited) It's not pay to win if the items are no longer available to purchase. If you really want to reach, then it'd be paid to win two years ago. And this is simply putting Excal Prime in line with the other Primes, not above. It will be pay to win if the arguments used now show up again the next time there's power creep--like if we end up with Prisma'ed Primes, for example--as that will mean the Founders get to ignore progression (by farming something) without needing to farm or buy Platinum. Edited June 8, 2015 by Yezzik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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