Ember Changes [Post 15.11.0 Megathread]

[Halser]

Ember got actually 2 speed buffs, one build in and the 2. one on WoF, what brings her up to full Volt speed if you run a rush mod.

 

As for void I did 40+ minutes with my old ember without a reactor and 5 forma on it, while running out of ammo on my 6 forma catalyst Tiberon(what is a high dps and ammo efficent gun if you aim for headshots) and seeing the dps of my abilitys drop that hard that you can't manage the heavy gunner in front of you any more. At this point, speed is what keeps you alive and most void units don't have hitscan weapons.

 

I acutally do run mag prime more than everything else for void missions today, because the frame gives me great dps(and by great I mean 60+ percent in a 4 man team) and utility(people are down, everybody calls it a wipe and the mag saves the day with CC, plus for some reason nobody else in my clan really uses the frame, so if we use a mag, I play it every single time), different to Ember where dps doesn't scale at all and utility was missing compleetly before the accelerant fix. However, looking at her performance against infested, I would say that it now comes down to preference(dps and up close vs slow down and to use range) and playstyle if you pick a Ember or Nova, outside of long def/survial where you need the slow down. Before the changes Nova was just miles better at staying alive and to handle big amounts of targets, now Ember can do that as well in skilled hands(then again nova dies just as quick as a Ember if you make a mistake as player). I think that is a good thing, because I like in your face dps Ember a bit more than slow you down Nova when it comes to solo gameplay, while I still will run the Nova if nobody else bings one if we do 40+ waves or minutes in defence or surival.

 

I love the Ember gameplay of in your face dps and with the higher speed, AOE knockdown and armor it got a lot more practical and useful for the team.

World on Fire doesn't boost speed. You're suffering from placebo there.

 

I was wrong about hitscan, but no amount of speed short of a max power strength volt coptering with a tipedo is going to allow you to dodge projectiles as fast as the bombards and nullifiers'. They aim really fast and the projectiles are faster. Also Ember hardly has any real 'dps', and that's the whole issue in the first place.

[RiouHotaru]

Actually, not being able to get energy is a bug.

 

Mirage's Prism lets you pick up energy while it's active to avoid running out prior to the duration ending.

 

WoF is basically Ember's version of Prism.  And with Prism there's a number of different ways to mod the power.

 

So yeah, nothing wrong with that.

[ThePresident777]

It's.  A. Nerf.

 

It's right in the description of World On Fnerf:  "World On Fire is now a toggle ability with a 50 Energy cost on cast. It will drain 5 energy over time as well as consider your power duration (affected by mods)."

 

50 energy + 10 * (1 + duration_bonus) seconds * 5 energy / second = You pay extra for duration mods.  It's. A. Nerf.

 

Year of Quality Is a Lie.

Edited January 22, 2015 by ThePresident777

[Lancars]

I like how in the middle of casting its still sucking away energy even before it starts doing damage. DE you turned this move into an energy hog that barely scrapes by. :C

[iuki.]

Horrible changes, made Ember worse which I didn't think was possible.

 

Back on the shelf she goes!

[Llyssa]

Ember got actually 2 speed buffs, one build in and the 2. one on WoF, what brings her up to full Volt speed if you run a rush mod.

 

As for void I did 40+ minutes with my old ember without a reactor and 5 forma on it, while running out of ammo on my 6 forma catalyst Tiberon(what is a high dps and ammo efficent gun if you aim for headshots) and seeing the dps of my abilitys drop that hard that you can't manage the heavy gunner in front of you any more. At this point, speed is what keeps you alive and most void units don't have hitscan weapons.

 

I acutally do run mag prime more than everything else for void missions today, because the frame gives me great dps(and by great I mean 60+ percent in a 4 man team) and utility(people are down, everybody calls it a wipe and the mag saves the day with CC, plus for some reason nobody else in my clan really uses the frame, so if we use a mag, I play it every single time), different to Ember where dps doesn't scale at all and utility was missing compleetly before the accelerant fix. However, looking at her performance against infested, I would say that it now comes down to preference(dps and up close vs slow down and to use range) and playstyle if you pick a Ember or Nova, outside of long def/survial where you need the slow down. Before the changes Nova was just miles better at staying alive and to handle big amounts of targets, now Ember can do that as well in skilled hands(then again nova dies just as quick as a Ember if you make a mistake as player). I think that is a good thing, because I like in your face dps Ember a bit more than slow you down Nova when it comes to solo gameplay, while I still will run the Nova if nobody else bings one if we do 40+ waves or minutes in defence or surival.

 

I love the Ember gameplay of in your face dps and with the higher speed, AOE knockdown and armor it got a lot more practical and useful for the team.

Nope.

 

Just tested to make sure, using Fire Blast to time it:

Without WoF on, it took 10 seconds to run from one end of a corridor to the other.

With WoF on, it took 10 seconds to run from the same end of the same corridor to to the same previous end point.

 

WoF does *not* increase your speed at all. Sorry.

[Variatas]

Good, good, Ember got her much needed changes. Now that she's done, hopefully Frost gets his turn.

 

In all seriousness, Ember and her Prime's Armor buff is really nice. Ember Prime went from a puny 15 to 125. Steel Fiber is suddenly more viable for survival-oriented builds. Her other changes are pretty darn nice too. It's cool that she can mimic an Arson Eximus now.

Steel Fiber is still not that viable with that little armor.  She's definitely better off now, but Steel Fiber is pretty bad on less than about 200 armor.  Which almost no frames actually have.

[Llyssa]

Also, to be sure: Formerly, you could cast WoF for 100 energy(base cost) and have it last 17 seconds, while gaining energy through all forms while it was on.

 

Now, you could cast WoF for 152 energy(base cost) and have it last 17 seconds, while not gaining energy in any way at all.

 

The "fix" to the "bug" would have it altered to:

Theoretically, you cast WoF for 152 energy(base cost) and have it last 17 seconds, while only gaining energy from orbs, but not from energy siphon or energy restores.

 

That still is quite awful, particularly considering the only positive change is a (nigh-imperceptible) casting speed buff...

 

EDIT: Grammar.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Llyssa

[VKhaun]

My Reaction

The simple -and long overdue- quality of life change of making her ultimate a toggle with duration was a pleasant surprise. Strange to see people hating on it in here in the feedback thread. In giving her a fresh look I found that Accelerant's stun works better than I remember and although brief it is just long enough to make good use of when you're aggressive. She is back on my A-list as a rifleman capable of excellent bursts of aggression for entering rooms.

 

My 2¢

I'm running Transient Fortitude, Streamline, Stretch and Primed Flow, doing T4E and it feels really slick. Vaykor Marelok Crit+Heat for long range, Karak w/Wildfire and Heavy Cal for short and shrinking bubbles. WoF @ 7sec and +50% damage is great for attacking packs of light enemies while I shoot the heavies. Accelerant done before or during, of course.

 

Fire Blast still seems pointless... I am trying to find a use for it but so far it still feels like a waste of power next to Accelerant and WoF. Maybe I'd use it to level her vs lowbies if I had not already forma'd her a bunch of times. Please improve it further or rework it and PLEASE do not rely on Augs to make it worthwhile.

 

My hope:

We'll see additional buffs to her 3 to justify the cost or a reduction in cost. If she's going to penalize Fleeting Expertise so much on her 4 and her 4 is designed around that, I don't think it's unreasonable to reduce the base cost.

 

My fear:

Accelerant will be "fixed" to require LoS like Radial Blind was. This will totally break the flashbang type playstyle of being able to hit it and then rush in to attack. It will severely hinder her ability to quickly enter complicated rooms full of enemies and partial cover. This is how I played both Excal and Ember. While I agree it was super OP on Excal, I think it's reasonably strong and the keystone of Ember's kit. I would be very sad to see Ember re-broken and the playstyle completely removed from Warframe in one bad patch note.

 

 

 

EDIT--

As I have never played her as a perma-ult / 4spam style and I have not heard any specific dev direction on the subject, I can't really give an informed opinion on the ability to pick up energy while using her ult. Doesn't affect me at all.

 

EDIT # 304

Don't editing now. >.>

Edited January 22, 2015 by VKhaun

[Nuparu92]

Alright, so I just spent a good 30 minutes playing around with embers new "buff", and here is my feedback. 

1.Fire Blast. I Fire Fright doesn't seem to effect the new explosion. I'm not sure is this is a bug or not, but it should effect it. That's a buff. 

2. WOF. So WOF is still effected by power duration? *Cries Softly into coffee*

I'm sorry DE, but who sat back in their desk chair, nodding there head like "Oh yea. Best WOF change ever. I'm getting promoted"? This was a nerf. Because this seems so incredibly bad, I'm assuming that it will be fixed.

 

[Holynight6]

I do enjoy how half a dozen or so people have been actively petitioning for ember buffs for the last year, and only when DE says they'll buff her, and then doesn't, does the whole community finally realise how badly she needs buffs.

I remember back in one of the first live streams you guys said ember was your favourite frame. I've doubted you ever since, but now I see you were just flat out lying. It's heartbreaking, and insulting.

[EversorNinja]

I haven't played Ember tonight yet (sorry Reb), but here's my theories so far:

 

100 armor is nice (not tank, to clarify to some that think this makes her too tanky). Speed, stamina buffs are nice

 

Fire Blast Eximus buff: hek yes. Idk if it's effective, but it's cool and has potential

 

World on Fire change: I will test it, but mathematically it doesn't seem like a good change (also, WoF is pretty useless in endgame since a long time ago, and I was hoping to see this addressed)

Edited January 22, 2015 by EversorNinja

[Variatas]

How about you just give Overheat back with non-broken numbers?  There was nothing wrong with her getting damage reduction, in fact it made the kit actually work a lot better because she wants to be up-close-and-personal for most of her abilities.  The problem was that she could get to 99% reduction, so don't let her do that.

Seriously, most of Ember's problems have stemmed from her being changed into a caster-frame, and caster-frames suck.  So... maybe give her back the durability skill that made it okay for her to not have much utility or CC?

Aside from that, I feel like the Fire Fright Augment should absolutely be applied to the new blastwave.  Consider a newcomer to the game, several months from now: they're not going to have any idea that Fire Blast didn't used to have that blastwave (because they're probably not going to read the wiki) so they're going to be confused (and then pissed off) when the Augment doesn't do what it says.

World of Fire changes were misguided.  I didn't even slot it before ability cards were removed, and these changes have not made it any more worth using.  It's a piddly amount of damage that depends on stats that conflict with the ones you need for her other abilities, and now it's even worse.  Either make it fully channeled by letting it have unlimited duration, or just revert the change.

[LisRestall]

Now that the changes have been live for about 90 minutes, here is a quick update on the update:

 

Note 1: There are several people providing feedback in this thread who have not tested the changes on their accounts. I cannot emphasize enough how important it is that you give them a try so we can get the most accurate thoughts/feedback possible. On-paper reactions are acceptable, but there is considerable value in play experiences.

Note 2: The combo of Duration + Toggle Energy Drain is currently the hottest issue. Ember not being able to pick-up Energy in this state is currently being treated like a bug.

Note 3: Fire Fright and it's efficacy on the Wall that Fire-Blast now generates has been noted - will be a design call but the concern has been forwarded.

Will play around myself some more this evening as we continue discussing - please remain civil and respectful. 

In respect to Rebecca's post. Instead of throwing out my assumptions, I did test WoF on T1D alone and see how it performs with max efficiency, primed continuity to cancel the -duration of fleeting and lastly, stretch mod.

 

1. The casting animation is indeed reduced but not that significant, it still takes long to cast. Also note that the animation now looks wierd with Ember slowly casting at the start then speeds up all of a sudden and the blast sound doesn't even match when Ember punches the ground. Why not just make the casting time as fast as when Blessing's animation was reduced? Blessing and WoF have almost if not, the same casting animation so why not just make the casting speed similar.

 

2. After such a painfully long casting time, it still does mediocre damage of 300+ with a really pitiful range even with stretch mod. The short range and how it kills enemy slowly still makes Ember more vulnerable to enemy gunfire.

 

3. Even with accelerant's debuff, it still does really pathetic damage of 700+ and this is also how it was even before which is why people were asking for a buff.

 

4. Energy cost is still the same. The only part where it saves more energy is when it reaches 100% more duration because the additional 10s will just cost 50 energy but that's not what the players would want because it will make accelerant's debuff very long w/o any purpose. Accelerant is meant to be spammed every 5s for it's induced panic and to make the enemy affected easily killed by any fire ability or fire weapon of Ember.

 

5. I don't see myself not being able to pick up energy orbs when I'm hosting, I haven't tried though if I'm not the host.

 

In conclusion, it is indeed true that there wasn't any buff at all to WoF as shown on paper calcs. Just adding a "turn-off" switch to it is pointless since it also doesn't do anything unlike Prism's blind effect when toggled off.

 

People might be happy about Fireblast having that eximus like effect but I only see it redundant, Accelerant is a better CC and does not rely on LoS and it has now been fixed to be able to stun-lock the enemy.

 

Take a look at Mesa's peacemaker. Okay, it does eat 3x more energy per second than WoF but at least it doesn't need any duration mods so you could easily fit in fleeting expertise w/o having to worry about how long you can keep peacemaker up. It has a fixed range of 50m and does 700-2k+ damage on T1D w/o any power str mods and that's 300-650% stronger than WoF, adding accelerant's debuff is still not enough to match peacemaker's damage. Heck, peacemaker can even still do more if you use shooting gallery. I know peacemaker has it's downside such as being immobile and Mesa's base stats are inferior compared to Ember especially in energy cap but that doesn't justify WoF's mediocre performance at all.

 

All in all, I don't see any buff. Ember is still in the lowest tier.

 

P.S. This is the very first time I want to rage in the forums but... *huge sigh* oh well.

Edited January 22, 2015 by LisRestall

[Adorable_Ookami_Momiji]

So far from my testings.

 

Armor increase is very nice.

 

Sprint speed is noticeable a bit, I can feel the difference somewhat at least.

 

I LOVE the stamina increase. Since World On Fire was all about running around, the low stamina was such a hindrance. 

 

Fire Blast...the fire wall seems to do some good damage when combo'd with Accelerant. Was killing some mid near 30s mid-tier unit Grineer pretty easily with some high power strength.

 

World On Fire though...I have to make such a weird combination of corrupted mods to still get the damage output, duration, range and energy efficiency. My build with Primed Continuity/Constitution/NarrowMinded was just wasting WAY TOO MUCH energy, and without being able to throw accelerant into the mix for new enemy spawns, I felt useless.

 

Also it gets worse when you have a couple energy leech eximus nearby too. Before, World on Fire would at least go the whole time no matter what, you already used the energy to get your ability duration. Now, once an energy leech comes up, your World on Fire runs out, it doesn't die, and everyone gets sapped, and probably swarmed.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Adorable_Ookami_Momiji

[Xtenz]

Ember is still bad .  None of the real problems were adressed.

 

Here is my structured thought (long post tho) 

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/388985-ember-changes-post-15110-megathread/page-7#entry4291866 

 

I'm heavily disapointed ..

Edited January 22, 2015 by Xtenz

[SleepingSentry]

I still don't think ember is all that bad, after they fixed accelerant.  Just use some fire damage weapons.  Spam accelerant repeatedly to chain stun if need be (which comes out super quick and effects enemies outside of line of sight).  Keep ult up at all times (it's decent when you factor in accelerant bonus damage), and fireball while shooting guns and reloading.  The only power I never really used was fire blast (outside of infested defense) and now I will.

 

She breaks around the same time most frames and weapons do if you don't have a banshee or at the very least nova and 3-4 corrosive projections - ~1 hour into survival.  Compared to say mesa whose ultimate breaks around 40 minutes in, excalibur's and saryn's break even before then, and they really don't have much else to offer.  On a side note I'm never running another T4S over an hour again anyways, last time I tried crashed right before leaving @ 75 minutes.

 

Outside of that - every frame is good if you're not running endless missions, that speed boost is much appreciated too for those types of missions.

 

But if world on fire was an endless toggle, that would be a change I'd love to see.  It is kind of sad that stacking duration has a negative impact on it now.

Edited January 22, 2015 by SleepingSentry

[geninrising]

Ok this is 70 posts out of 167 negative responses to this change to Ember. I found 5(approximately) posts happy about these changes, 5(approximately) posts or so talking about random crap and the rest were discussing various arguments players were having in regards to the changes. 

so incredibly bad, I'm assuming that it will be fixed.

 

It is absolutely clear precisely how the community feels about WOF changes DE Fix it.

 

Ember was my first frame after I started over because I hated Excalibur so much. I have approximately 300 hrs solely on ember prior to her first WOF rework.

 

Every single time you touch Ember she gets WORSE than the previous iteration. STOP IT PLEASE! Statistical buffs and a useless tickle mechanic on her Fireblast do not FIX her problems. In addition ignoring many cries for a change to WOF to bring it CLOSE(not even precisely competitive) with the rest of the AOE damage skills has been entirely ignored by making her ult cost MORE than every other ult in the game. Not only costing more at BASE but costing more due to the ignorance of keeping a duration mechanic at all. I refuse to even take my favorite frame into any game at all since Scott's supposed attempts at QoL improvements(nerfs).

 

I am sick and tired of seeing frames completely relegated to the crapper for 6 months to a year because of ignored feedback and this cannot continue. 

 

edit: 7 more negative posts while I was typing

Edited January 22, 2015 by geninrising

[CrossuNyan]

The cast speed improvement for WoF is much appreciated but toggling with a duration limit seems still hinder WoF damage potential. Aside from that, the Arson's effect on Fire Blast has it's utility(but requires Line of Sight) and I find it underwhelming due to it's size and expansion rate.

[Coatduck]

Alright, after playing a bit and doing some math, I've noticed a few things. First things first, this ability's initial cost is actually 56, not 50, meaning it already costs more than it used to with no mods. For the time being, I'm going to assume this is a bug and continue my math ignoring it.

I've also noticed something else that I think most people have missed. With the energy drain, and the ability to toggle this ability off, it seems like it will cost either the same amount of energy or less because you could just toggle it off, but I think we've all missed something

Before, if I put on a Narrow Minded, the ability lasted about 20 seconds, and cost, at a base, 100 energy. Now, I have to put narrow minded on to get that duration, I still lose the range, but now it costs 150 energy. As soon as you add duration to it, it costs more and more energy, bumping up from what used to be 100 all the way up to 191.

It would make sense to me, to either remove the timer from it and reduce energy drain per second to 4, or just revert the drain and have the ability to toggle it off. Right now the changes to World on Fire in regards to it's energy drain is only a buff to those who have their World On Fire duration bellow 10 seconds, and for everyone else it is a serious nerf, costing significantly more energy to use.

[GreyEnneract]

I still don't think ember is all that bad, after they fixed accelerant.  Just use some fire damage weapons.  Spam accelerant repeatedly to chain stun if need be (which comes out super quick and effects enemies outside of line of sight).  Keep ult up at all times (it's decent when you factor in accelerant bonus damage), and fireball while shooting guns and reloading.  The only power I never really used was fire blast (outside of infested defense) and now I will.

 

She breaks around the same time most frames and weapons do if you don't have a banshee or at the very least nova and 3-4 corrosive projections - ~1 hour into survival.  Compared to say mesa whose ultimate breaks around 40 minutes in, excalibur's and saryn's break even before then, and they really don't have much else to offer.  On a side note I'm never running another T4S over an hour again anyways, last time I tried crashed right before leaving @ 75 minutes.

 

Outside of that - every frame is good if you're not running endless missions, that speed boost is much appreciated too for those types of missions.

 

But if world on fire was an endless toggle, that would be a change I'd love to see.  It is kind of sad that stacking duration has a negative impact on it now.

Accelerant cannot chain stun.

[geninrising]

Accelerant cannot chain stun.

actually it can now. It was fixed to allow targets to be stunned again even though they have accelerant in effect in the previous hotfix.

[Adorable_Ookami_Momiji]

Accelerant cannot chain stun.

 

That was a bug and it was fixed just a bit ago. It reapplies the heat debuff, AND stun. edit: damn ninja's...

Edited January 22, 2015 by Adorable_Ookami_Momiji

[KiraShado]

Current Findings!

 

Fire Blast:

Has very finicky LOS that depends on if enemy has cover or not.

Fire Blast's radial AOE is NOT affected by Power Range Mods.

Enemy "behind cover" is not affected.

Also "behind cover".

 

 

World On Fire:

Durration is a little too short to justify toggablility as duration will run out before even deciding to cancel WoF.

           - My duration is approx. 8 seconds, that's only about 50 meters. Not enough adequite time effort to cancel the ability.

[Awazx]

This is proof that developers do not play their own game.

 

Edit: And also, is the result of fear (yes, fear) that this "wonderful" community has inspired developers in search of paranoid "balance".

Edited January 22, 2015 by Awazx