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Ember Changes [Post 15.11.0 Megathread]


MrNonApplicable
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Good, good, Ember got her much needed changes. Now that she's done, hopefully Frost gets his turn.

 

In all seriousness, Ember and her Prime's Armor buff is really nice. Ember Prime went from a puny 15 to 125. Steel Fiber is suddenly more viable for survival-oriented builds. Her other changes are pretty darn nice too. It's cool that she can mimic an Arson Eximus now.

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Disclaimber: This is the opinon of somebody that did play ember during a time accelerant did not refresh the stun, in content where you got one hitted by everything and with a min/max minus duration build to stun more and pack enught dps to survive at close range. Overall, the new Ember is outright fantastic, the only anoying thing is that you can't pick up energy during WoF, what should be fixed since toggle adds nothing to it(nobody would hit it and then stop it after 2s, since you would simply use fireball in that case).

 

Just did a L35 infested survial with the ember changes, WoF now adds a speed buff, if you run allready a maxed rush mod, combined with the speed buff it makes Ember rediculus fast, able to actually dodge stuff at close range and super offensive with my boar prime. WoF duration went a bit down, from 8s to 7s, no big deal to me, just let me pick up energy when it runs.

 

As for people calling the armor buff useless, combined with the higher speed it gives ember nearly the same surviability that Nova got, I did solo a room with like 30 infested in it without takeing more than 80% health damage at a time, that is for a Ember Prime player that is used to get one hitted like playing a rino with infinite iron skin. Fire blast is great to give you some room to manuver now, the line of sight restrictions are not that bad if it comes to self defence, a bit limited if it comes to block choke points or try to clear the field to revive somebody.

In my opinion having the 'same survivability as nova' means not having any at all.

 

 

Let's calculate how much the tiny armor buff actually helps. Ember had 15 armor before. Having 300 health, that amounts to 315 effective health, if you are fighting enemies that do not deal puncture damage(as the vast majority of corpus do).

 

Now with the armor buff of 125, that goes to 425 effective health against enemies without puncture damage. That's a 34% increase on health.

 

Now for overall health + shields, it goes from 615 to 725, a tiny 18% increase in effective hp. Basically nothing.

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The thing is, even IF they REMOVED the duration, Ember would still have the same issues, and it would still cost the same amount of energy.

The issue with Ember currently is that ALL of her abilities rely heavily on ALL power mods

 

Strength (Every single one of her abilities, especially her scaling ability to end game with her 2, and augment mod)

Range (Cant Accelerant/ WOF people if theyre outa range)
Efficiency (considering that the combo is Accelerant into any other ability, its needed badly)

Duration (Accelerant duration, RoF duration, WoF duration)

PLUS the fact that Flow is NEEDED on her because she needs to use a combo of her abilities to be useful.


Whereas some frames can survive without one stat, and still be useful, (such as Mag not needing Duration for a strong build, or Loki not needing strength) its realllly hard to make ember builds.

TLDR -   Frames need to have the ability to have loads of different builds in order to specialise in different fields, but Embers abilities rely on each other so much that this becomes impossible

Im sorry DE, but in my opinion, she flat out needs a Rework.  there's no other way around it!

Edited by Jin_Kazama
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From the 15.11 patch today


Ember Changes:

 

  • Base Stamina increased to 150.

  • Base armour increased to 100 (125 for Ember Prime)

  • Movement Speed increase.

  • Fire Blast has had a mechanic added. In addition to placing a ring of fire on casting location, it will now also generate a growing wall of fire (like the Arson Eximus ability).

  • World On Fire is now a toggle ability with a 50 Energy cost on cast. It will drain 5 energy over time as well as consider your power duration (affected by mods).

  • World on Fire has had its casting time reduced.


I think that all around it's a pretty good buff, except ONE.

World On Fire is now a toggle ability with a 50 Energy cost on cast. It will drain 5 energy over time as well as consider your power duration (affected by mods).

 

Alright, MATH time.

Scenario 1: +0% Power Duration

Total energy cost is 50 + 5 * 10 = 100 energy. It's the same as before.

 

Scenario 2:http://goo.gl/m8QwDe

Before: 30 energy per WoF cast.

Now: 15 + 1.5 * 17.8 = 41.7 energy per WoF cast.

 

My post showing my concern about this BEFORE DE release the 15.11 patch in one of the ember thread.

I just hope they don't screw up with the numbers for the energy/second drain, cause it may very well be a nerf instead of a buff.

 

Guess what? I was right! I can't believe DE pulled this on us yet again. I don't want to sound harsh and be rude, but what the F is the design guy at DE doing? Do they even do some simple math like this? How can this be called a BUFF when you're NERFING her main skill.

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Wow, the mods are removing posts from this thread, I just noticed some of mine are gone.

 

Yeah, volatile subject... volatile  posts.

 

I will fully admit that i am currently coming from this trope: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheyChangedItNowItSucks

 

But WoF was fine it its previous incarnation.

The only way to have improved it was to make it a "Pure" channeled ability like Absorb, Peacemaker, or Soundquake.

 

All other changes, I am 100% A-Okay with. But it seems that they Sacrificed WoF because they though Fireblast compensated for the sharp drop in ember's damage output.

 

One of the saving graces of WoF, was the ability to 'reclaim' energy from kills during its duration to allow you to keep it going... or to spam Accelerant to boost the damage of WoF further. Without it, its lost a lot of its viability. Now the ability is contrained by lack of energy mid-cast, lack of damage control, total duration, and now energy per-second.

 

These are HORRIBLE trade-offs for the ability to toggle. 

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To me, Ember has not changed. All she got was a stats boost, and armor is barely notable since we always face some form of proc that avoids it. The only other thing she got was a rather unreliable knockdown to fire blast. I see the fire wave, but I also see it brushing by enemies and not doing a thing.

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The damage is not the point, the Fire Eximus fire waves are doing relative small damage too. The important thing here is the knockback, though it seems a bit unreliable at the moment, sometimes even heavy enemies got blasted away, sometimes they shrug it off.

 

The intention was apperently to give fire blast an additional CC function and being more usefull on the move. Though the Fire Fright mod not working with the fire wave should be looked at.

 

The line of sight restriction is most likely because the Fire Eximus fire blastwave also works on line of sight. You can easily avoid them by standing behind an object facing the direction of the blast.

 

So i guess DE went with a bit of fairness here, in that what doesn't work on players doesn't work on enemies either.

 

 

 

It's an addition to the regular Fireblast. You now cause a eximus style fire wave, while leaving behind a burning ring same as before.

 

Also people on the forum actualy called for this addition, since it became somewhat strange how a Warframe based on creating fire would be visualy overshadowed by common enemies with those fire waves. Now she can pay them back. Though the knockback isn't as strong against them currently.

well its about time... they should add a stronger knockback... ember prime a warframe was so useless after the update with the ship. the buffed infested dominate... i just hope these new changes will make her more balanced and usable... shes just collecting dust in my arsenal.

 

when is this patch coming again for ps4?

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I think if WoF must be affected by Duration in order to not suffer from the Energy Restore limitations that Absorb has try it like this.

 

Let it become more expensive in stages affected by duration. Costing 50% more every XXX seconds. Ember and other casters should want to have a Trinity on their team as an energy battery. But applying diminishing returns on the energy efficiency should hamper infinite cast times, while preserving the synergy with Trinity and energy restoring effects.

Edited by Ryjeon
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Honestly? Remove duration.

The toggle right now is useless, as it's only use if circumventing the bug that breaks energy pickups. Other than that, there's no reason to ever use it on an ability that's over before you even realize what it's doing. Removing the need for duration altogether would allow for better builds, such as building into strength some more, allowing for more damage while still carefully balancing all her other needs.

This, in turn, could give Ember the much needed extra damage, making it a lot more tempting to actually use her again.

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I'm severely struggling to see any benefit to the WoF change besides being able to turn it off, though the casting tie duration is welcome and wonderful. 

 

It effectively costs more EN for less duration now. Not even mentioning the EN you won't be getting through Siphon.

 

If this is the intended change, to give it faster casting/and *mentioned by others*speed buff at the cost of more EN. Then congrats. If not, please revisit these changes.

 

All in all, it's not what I wanted to change to achieve. I was hoping for WoF to become more cost effective :/. And while I appreciate the buffs, I strongly feel it doesn't do much in terms of wanting to use WoF, right now it is just even less desirable to use in combination with other skills then before.

Edited by Lynxh
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Read the staff replies. Being unable to pick up energy while in WoF is likely a bug. Keep thine knickers in the un-twisted position.

Perhaps *orbs*, but energy siphon does not affect you during toggle-drains, nor do energy restores. Hence, that part is working as intended, and is awful.

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I do not see ANYWHERE that they've said they were buffing World on fire, The word used, is "Changes". While ember has for the most part been buffed, a buff is a change, world on fire was also changed, again, the word buff, was not used.

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Now that the changes have been live for about 90 minutes, here is a quick update on the update:

 

Note 1: There are several people providing feedback in this thread who have not tested the changes on their accounts. I cannot emphasize enough how important it is that you give them a try so we can get the most accurate thoughts/feedback possible. On-paper reactions are acceptable, but there is considerable value in play experiences.

Note 2: The combo of Duration + Toggle Energy Drain is currently the hottest issue. Ember not being able to pick-up Energy in this state is currently being treated like a bug.

Note 3: Fire Fright and it's efficacy on the Wall that Fire-Blast now generates has been noted - will be a design call but the concern has been forwarded.

Will play around myself some more this evening as we continue discussing - please remain civil and respectful. 

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World on fire still feel the same. the ability become toggle and drain energy.


 


with 75% power efficiency on World on Fire cost 13 energy and 1 energy drain per second.


 


My World on Fire has 9 second duration which means 13 energy cost on cast + 9 energy = 23 energy. 


 


*facepalm*


 


1. it is better if they made the WoF running as long Ember have energy but with LIMITED number of target (maybe 5 to 8?).


 


or


 


2. Lets keep the current change of WoF but we add -hit all all the enemy within range and the enemy stagger every 2 seconds

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Now that the changes have been live for about 90 minutes, here is a quick update on the update:

 

Note 1: There are several people providing feedback in this thread who have not tested the changes on their accounts. I cannot emphasize enough how important it is that you give them a try so we can get the most accurate thoughts/feedback possible. On-paper reactions are acceptable, but there is considerable value in play experiences.

Note 2: The combo of Duration + Toggle Energy Drain is currently the hottest issue. Ember not being able to pick-up Energy in this state is currently being treated like a bug.

Note 3: Fire Fright and it's efficacy on the Wall that Fire-Blast now generates has been noted - will be a design call but the concern has been forwarded.

Will play around myself some more this evening as we continue discussing - please remain civil and respectful. 

Having tried the Ember changes myself, I can say that while the stat changes where nice, the skill changes are very underwhelming, especially WoF. I was hoping it would be like Banshee's ult where it stays active until you toggle it off or run out of energy.

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I dont get it. The Ember is a typical Glass-canon character. I think, the +100 armor are ruined the balance. She is now a tank? What? Really? And, the WoF nerfing is just the cream on the cake. I think, the best for buffing the Ember, is the buffing her abilitys. The knockdown to the 3rd ability is very good, effective, and logical, if we see the eximuses. But that armor thing, and, the WoF thing... I dont know who think this is okay, but, i think this is NOT OKAY.

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