Nerfing Nova For The Sake Of Challenging Missions.

[AlphaHorseman]

I agree that somethings require nerfing. For example the most recent and important nerf was reducing the amount of energy gained by Syndicate Weapons and Mods. It was honestly ridiculous how much energy you could get with a simple primed flow equipped and I was happy to see it get reduced down.

 

That said however you cant deny that a vast majority of these threads demanding nerfs do so usually based on the opinion of an individual not accounting for the full amount of variables involved in re-balancing a power and often complaining about things that in fact are not that overpowered. Stronger then other options withing a specific scenario perhaps but not overpoweringly so.

 

I thus dismiss the entire premise of most peoples use of the word nerf since I believe there will be no positive progress made to this game with a purely weakening outlook on re-balancing, also while its true the slight re-balancing of a weapon or powers values to be weaker is technically a nerf I feel that often any reasonable player who used it before it was nerfed will not complain since they will be already aware that it was perhaps released too strongly. That said I stand by that no weapon or ability is currently so overpowered it needs a nerf.

 

As towards power-creep again. That just comes down to once again them having to buff or shuffle the mastery requirements of the weapons to better reflect their physical stats. Currently the highest end weapons are functionally strong but not overpowered, especially when going for records times in endless runs. Its just a shame their is a lot of weapons not performing any roll well. Nerfing the strong weapons however wont fix that only lower the capability of all endless and high-tier runs.

 

You say people don't want to nerf things until everything sucks. However often since people dont know what their talking about this is exactly what happens, curse public opinion. (RIP past Ember). If warframe was like Dota then a very specific set of balancing would be needed and required to to keep all weapons and abilitys near constant polarity with eachother. Same could be said if it was an MMORPG. It is however neither. Balancing things too much with nerfs often means the uniqueness and positive aspects of things gets degraded and lowered to a point where your options are all essentially cosmetic as everything is just copys of other options with different skins. What happens when the saryn's ult, embers ult, frosts ult and volts ult all become the same ability, with the same damage, a stagger for 1second and the same range & cost. Sure the elemental theme nuke frames would be balanced. But that would be boring as hell thats for damn sure.

Someone get this man/woman a cookie. +1

[Lavielz]

EDIT: Please don't resort to saying things like "Well, don't play Nova" or "Leave when a Nova joins" - How does that solve the issue? Ignoring things as they come isn't how problems are resolved and I do appreciate the replies with proper feedback on this topic, thank you. 

i like how you're talking about solving issues yet you don't present any solution or a suggestion. instead, you just post some stuff about how mprime is "soooooo op" and leave the others to just fight with each other on the thread wall.

 

bringing up the problem isn't enough, do your own work instead of others doing it for you.

[Soul.Fire]

Someone get this man/woman a cookie. +1

I second that motion.

[vaugahn]

Someone get this man/woman a cookie. +1

I second that motion.

This is spam. Seriously.

[AlphaHorseman]

This is spam. Seriously.

Nope. It is a show of support to the buffing of other items, rather than nerfing something that isn't in need of a nerf.

[TypeSaber]

^-^ thanks everyone *noms cookie*

 

I agree Vaugahn that the people reacting to the Boltor suggestions so negatively were doing it poorly and were a huge overreaction to a reasonable suggestion. (one I did not agree with perhaps but people should always be allowed to state their opinions, as long as they are bringing a reasonable and informed idea to the board)

 

Then again it comes down to human nature I guess, peoples general attitude towards protecting things they feel they possess is a scary thing.

 

I find that in game design 'Balance' in itself is bit of a impossible thing to do without restricting interesting tactics, ideas and designs far too much , Company's should instead fight to create 'perfect inbalance' then scale up the enemy's to match. When everything is strong in some form of fashion even if it gives birth to overpowered combo's theirs often such a overabundance of such combo's that everyone has plenty of choice. Furthermore balance then only involves scaling and advancements of mobs a far easier task.

[vaugahn]

^-^ thanks everyone *noms cookie*

I agree Vaugahn that the people reacting to the Boltor suggestions so negatively were doing it poorly and were a huge overreaction to a reasonable suggestion. (one I did not agree with perhaps but people should always be allowed to state their opinions, as long as they are bringing a reasonable and informed idea to the board)

Then again it comes down to human nature I guess, peoples general attitude towards protecting things they feel they possess is a scary thing.

I find that in game design 'Balance' in itself is bit of a impossible thing to do without restricting interesting tactics, ideas and designs far too much , Company's should instead fight to create 'perfect inbalance' then scale up the enemy's to match. When everything is strong in some form of fashion even if it gives birth to overpowered combo's theirs often such a overabundance of such combo's that everyone has plenty of choice. Furthermore balance then only involves scaling and advancements of mobs a far easier task.

I'd honestly say that that protectiveness is a good sign of sorts, as frustrating as it often may be. At the very least it shows that people are emotionally invested in this game, which is something many games cannot claim.

As for the concept of perfect imbalance, that's actually pretty much just a fancy name for PvE balance. You balance among players first, then balance the enemies to a desired level of difficulty. This isn't a PvP game, so balance is very relative.

One of the reasons I personally tend not to like that approach though is because I've seen it before. I play a lot of in-development games, and in one particularly memorable instance I saw a developer try to balance without nerfing. They just buffed everything up by varying amounts, but then in the end they realized they now were using big numbers instead of small numbers for various values. They divided all their stats by 5 or 6 or something to put them pretty much back to where they were originally, and many people were outraged when they realized some of their stuff had been indirectly nerfed by buffing other things to a larger relative degree. It essentially came out the same as if they had just nerfed a couple things to begin with and worked from there.

Basically, the first step I want DE to take now is to remove the outliers. There are a lot of things that are tragically underperforming, and several things that are overperforming. Before we can even touch the fine balance, those things need to be brought in line.

@AlphaHorseman: that's what an upvote button is for.

Edited February 4, 2015 by vaugahn

[kash._.]

I really dont see the point in nerfing nova

[LisRestall]

One of the reasons I personally tend not to like that approach though is because I've seen it before. I play a lot of in-development games, and in one particularly memorable instance I saw a developer try to balance without nerfing. They just buffed everything up by varying amounts, but then in the end they realized they now were using big numbers instead of small numbers for various values. They divided all their stats by 5 or 6 or something to put them pretty much back to where they were originally, and many people were outraged when they realized some of their stuff had been indirectly nerfed by buffing other things to a larger relative degree. It essentially came out the same as if they had just nerfed a couple things to begin with and worked from there.

That's like Dragon Nest's PVE side where they decided to buff all the classes as a way to nerf the other powerful classes and also to balance them with the others too. What happened was a disaster, everyone doing millions of damage and literally, it was so hard to know what amount of damage is decent or extremely high. People were posting screenshots of their 3m, 50m, 80m, 100m, 200m+ damage.

 

Not to mention, it also made a new overpowered class in the process (Raven downfall, Gearmaster/Shooting Star rises to OP tier). Chances are, that will also happen to Warframe if ever they did buff every frame to have the same capabilities of a Nova, there will be something overlooked by the devs and cause another *insert-new-OP-frame-here*.

[Soul.Fire]

That's like Dragon Nest's PVE side where they decided to buff all the classes as a way to nerf the other powerful classes and also to balance them with the others too. What happened was a disaster, everyone doing millions of damage and literally, it was so hard to know what amount of damage is decent or extremely high. People were posting screenshots of their 3m, 50m, 80m, 100m, 200m+ damage.

 

Not to mention, it also made a new overpowered class in the process (Raven downfall, Gearmaster/Shooting Star rises to OP tier). Chances are, that will also happen to Warframe if ever they did buff every frame to have the same capabilities of a Nova, there will be something overlooked by the devs and cause another *insert-new-OP-frame-here*.

I still say Nova is no where near as powerful as Nyx. Sure Nova has flashy explosions, but Nyx is a whole other scale of powerhouse altogether. This thread is going after Nova, I feel, based on how much flash and glamour she has, which by the way, falls off really surprisingly fast once you get just a little bit higher than level 30, while Nyx never gets useless because she either distracts or controls most of the enemies.

[AlphaHorseman]

@AlphaHorseman: that's what an upvote button is for.

Oh I know. I upvoted her/him as well. Still, my ecstatic joy seeing that we weren't some of the few who wanted things more fun and buffed to be brought to a higher level of balance, while also expanding enemy mechanics, merited that I show my support in a more direct fashion. Not to mention it's far better to help things along than to hurt things down. There isn't really anything in the game at the moment that is "OP" in my opinion because it all has it's function. However, there are things in this game that are in need of buffing not just damage wise for guns, but powers that need more CC/Utility attributes to make them actually useful. Maybe even entire reworks, if DE would be willing to and are interested in doing so.

Edited February 4, 2015 by AlphaHorseman

[Temp0ralfool]

-snip-

Please don't resort to saying things like "Well, don't play Nova" or "Leave when a Nova joins" - How does that solve the issue? 

-snip-

it solves the issue by leaving people who like Nova alone, while getting people who whine about her to either go away or sack up and deal with it.

 

edit: I'm honestly sorry for resurrecting this thread

Edited February 25, 2015 by Temp0ralfool