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STEALTH FEEDBACK & SUGGESTIONS THREAD
UPDATE 20-11-2014

 

 

0) MOA/DRONES EXECUTIONS PLEASE

 

so, in the time span from CBT to nowdays stealth got improved alot, but obviously, not finished yet.
 
surprisingly enough, not much needed to get it done right, since times of CBT most of stuff was implemented.
(you can check it in the spoiler on verry bottom)
 
so, what left to be implemented to have enjoyable stealth experience?
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1) insta-kill on stealth kill
the essence of weapon is how fast it may kill enemies. sneaking on enemies for stealth kills takes way more time than it takes to shoot enemy, so let's stop all these excuses about "breaking the game" since it would not. just no stealth kills on bosses.
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2) amount of enemies spawning by default
this should not be a surprise for anybody, but the higher lvl your warframe is, the more enemies spawn by default, so we have these annoying situations where multiple enemies are stuck in each other on patrool wait waypoint. 
to make stealth enjoyable you should limit amount of enemies spawning by default to be just like if you are lvl 1. it means there are just a few enemies to sneak around comfortly.
obviously, when alarm goes off you are getting swarmed by amount of enemies appropriate to your level.
 
WAYPOINTS, ENEMIES SHOULD NOT GET STUCK IN EACH OTHER AND STAND IN CLUSTER
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3) stealth rewards
obviously to make stealth viable appropriate rewards should be set in place, 
you can recieve a stealth reward if you
1) finish mission without alarm on.
2) alarm was on for less than 40 seconds. (a countdown starts, if you fail to turn off alarm in 40 seconds, you can't  deactivate it anymore)
3) alarm was triggered 2 times or less. (you can deactivate alarm only 2 times)
 
reward should be based on player's performance and be penaltised based on:
1) accuracity % (to prevent idiots spraying guns to recieve it, and encourage precise aiming or going up close with E stealth kills)
2) amount of E stealth kills animation, to encourage attempting stealth kills.
3) 
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4) RADAR ENHANCEMENTS

when enemy radar or enemy sense is equiped, we should see enemies cons of view, or atleast direction enemies are facing

 

soliton-radar-460x310.png6286430539_675df29971.jpg

 

Different icons for:

Regular enemies.

Heavies.

Stationary targets (i.e. cameras/turrets).

VIPs

Neutral units (wildlife)

 

Different colors/icons for waypoints

By players (i.e. player 1,2,3,4)

For various "objectives" (Door, Mod, Elevator, Resource, Objective-Pod/Artifact, Enemy)

 

Direction and Alerted/Searching/Stand by state.

(as indicated by the blue/red/yellow/blue cones of view) 

when alerted - no cone of view, just direction enemy facing (picture on right, deus ex hr)

 
4.5) little things to add
2) ability to hang on edges. a small thing, but it will make big difference.
3) level restart button in solo.
4) stealth kills counter in profile and end mission screen.
5) sentinel should levitate low when you are crouching to make sure enemies would not spot it.
6) if location is damaged ship, make enemies to be in warned state instead of running and attacking you in instant.
7) if you get to boss room undetected, there is nobody except boss there and it's locked down, so you can go loud, but it would not affect the mission progress. accuracity within boss room does not affect stealth reward.
before enemy makes a turn to right or left, he stops and rotate head to that direction first.
 
 
 
5) things to nerf
1) duration mods need to be nerfed ALOT, so loki and ash invisibility duration would not be exploitable with mods. i seen absolutely brain dead idiots that consider that doing stealth run without exploiting invisibility and running all the time clocked is insane.
2)
 
let's have this kind of gameplay possible more often

 

 

 

 

very old stuff

 

warframe's invincibility works on sentinels

we are finally able to turn off alarms

 

 

 

MOST ANTICIPATED:

 

METAL GEAR ALERTS COOLDOWN + REWARD SYSTEM + STEALTH INSTA-KILL

 

direction enemy facing on hud when enemy radar is enabled fkBFNlQriH8.jpg

 

 

STEALTH KILLS MUST BE INSTA-KILL no doubt, no discussion

the essence of weapons is how fast it may kill enemies. sneaking on enemies for stealth kills takes way more time than it takes to shoot enemy, so let's stop all this BS about "breaking the game" since it would not.

 

to balance it out - no stealth kills on bosses

everything else is just fine. even killing enemy while being invisible by ash and loki is fine. it's just 1-3 kills max.

but need to make sure you can't make stealth kills if enemies are alerted while you are clocked by shade.

 

-----------------------------------------------------

 

SOLUTION TO KEEP RANDOM PATCH FINDING NOT SO FATAL FOR STEALTH PLAYERS

very simple, animation driven.

when enemy is about to turn to one side or another he turn head first.

check tenchu any stealth game for refference

 

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STEALTH REWARD SYSTEM (end mission bonus)
if person completed whole mission undetected he recieve good xp + credits bonus wih penalties based on:
1) amount of enemies killed.
2) amount of alarms triggered. if person triggered more then 2 alarms he would not recieve end mission bonus.
3) if alarm(s) was/were longer then some ammount of time player don't recieve end mission stealth bonus at all.
this way player would not be able to get bonus turning off alarm in the end of mission.
all three together should prevent farming stealth bonus.
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faction based bonus ratio
grineer: 100% ( default bonus value )
corpus: 150% ( increased bonus value due all the cameras and lasers and moas and drones and what not )
infested: 100% ( alarm mechanics required to prevent farming and make penalties work proper )
all 3 penalties apply to these ratios
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Addition:
x5 xp for stealth kill (the one with animation)
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being able to state that you are stealth player in future matchmaking system
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bugs list / misc breakdowns

 

feedback on U9

 

1) can't perform stealth kills if enemy in new patrol animation

 

general bugs since closed beta

 

19) INSTAKILL ON STEALTH ATTACK NOW!!!!111

it takes ALOT of time to get behind enemy undetected, so ANY stealth attack should be instakill.

whats the point in stealth attack not being lethal when you spend 20+ seconds to get behind

while you can just pick up a gun and spray bullets to get a kill in less than a second.

 

 

1) we need to be able to hack terminals to turn alert off.
2) decrease the amount of spawning enemies while undetected 30% less than now
3) doors should open from wider angle  done
3) ash skills should not cause alarm    done
4) make banshee sonar to show all enemies in ONE section PER USE.
5) Loki and Ash invisibility should cloak the Sentinel too
6) sentinel being detected while crouching. make enemies ignore sentinels while owner is crouching.
7) alarm is triggered instantly if location is damaged ship
8) alarm may get triggered even if there is no visual contact with tenno
9) can't perform stealth kills on bosses like captain Vor, even if you reach him completely undetected.  need more brainstorming
http://youtu.be/UjnVry0EqqY?t=10m55s
10) can't perform stealth kills on shield lancers done
11) when client perform stealth kill he get spoted (range increased) MP STEALTH IS BROKEN BECAUSE OF IT. occurs quite often.
12) when guard see something suspicious he run straight to console or cover instead of investigating. done
13) there is no stealth kills stat on end mission screen
14) Stealth kills could have a counter in your profile.
15) If you engage in a fight, the enemies on the next room will go to a cover and wait until you enter the room. These enemies become semi-alerted but don't go back to safe state and getting stuck next to wall
16) KUNAI CAUSE ALERT! http://youtu.be/qoHkAO2afCU ; http://youtu.be/fO1qY0OLIuE    fixed
17) we need to be able to destroy alarm terminals irrelevant now
18) heavy units should not be able to activate alarm done
19) INSTAKILL ON STEALTH ATTACK NOW!!!!111
20) if you come to boss room undetected, boss should stand alone.
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misc suggestions
1) flashlight - being able to turn off warframe's flashlight to decrease chance of spoting
2) silent sidearms - crossbow / dual crossbows / throwable knives that don't impale enemies to walls, with curve trajectory
3) level restart option in solo.- just one more button in menu to restart level
4) being able to hang on edges http://youtu.be/cUDGMUJkJeY?t=3m47s
5) use cypher to turn alert off irrelevant
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best of stealth videos:
n7snk

http://youtu.be/-f01XqEYQ_c

 

 

http://youtu.be/-f01XqEYQ_c

xRoguex

http://youtu.be/mXb8C42XJ8s

 

 

http://youtu.be/mXb8C42XJ8s

 

Additions:
[Derp] Stealth Mini Manual

 

Edited by n7snk
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I don't agree with more bonus XP for a stealth approach, it suggests that stealth is the "correct" way to play. I do agree with making stealth more viable though, but don't make it so stealth is the hands down statistically best approach.

I especially agree with point #6, it would be a great motivator for stealth, but in that case there should be an XP bonus to balance out what you'd lose for not fighting waves of enemies.

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I don't agree with more bonus XP for a stealth approach, it suggests that stealth is the "correct" way to play. I do agree with making stealth more viable though, but don't make it so stealth is the hands down statistically best approach.

I especially agree with point #6, it would be a great motivator for stealth, but in that case there should be an XP bonus to balance out what you'd lose for not fighting waves of enemies.

you don't really get the stealth aproach then. when you play in stealth manner you barely kill anyone, unless he is really annoying and you risk being spoted if you would not kill him, so getting a bit more exp is pretty okay solution considering you are not supposed to fight waves of enemies in stealth.

let's say in stealth i kill around 5-7 enemies on whole level and get 100 xp for each, which 500-700 in total

and

you go all gun-blazing-blood-thristry-fury-rage and kill 30-40 enemies and get 30 xp for each and you get around 900-1200 xp in total, which is already more then i get.

+ consider time & effort. average gunblazing match lasts around 3-5 minutes? and in stealth you spend around 10-20 minutes for whole level (if not more)

i'm pretty sure xp bonus would not hurt. the more ways to play - the better,

my only concern is bosses. this is quite a hard question and i have no idea regarding it.

it may go same way as deus ex hr for example where you will had to fight boss in 1vs1 manner or assasisn creed (i played only first one so it may be different now) where after killing your objective you had to runaway and hide, in case of warframe - run to extraction point.

if i will have any ideas or suggestins or some red flags on stealth gameplay, i will post it here for futher consideration and discussion among players and hopefuly developers.

Edited by n7snk
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More XP per kill means the statistically best way, hands down, is to stealth kill everything. I don't think there should be a "right way" from a rewards perspective.

There can be an XP reward to balance it out, just don't tie it to kills. It doesn't even really make sense from a stealth approach either. You'd be rewarded for killing everything, I don't think that's really congruent with stealth gameplay.

Is that more clear?

EDIT: One idea could be to award XP for each enemy that didn't spot you. You wouldn't need to kill them but you'd still get the XP. Not perfect but something along those lines.

Edited by Rhynocerous
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I agree with N7 it takes a long time to go through the entire level with stealth mode activated. The time it takes to gun blaze + get more kills and therefore get more exp than stealth is a real downer.

Not to mention the Gunblazing will no doubtedly get you more gear - so you can maybe even say that if you get a stealth kill you should also get extra item drop chance for doing it.

Point 5 - Definately agree, granted i know they have comms but the system is really wacky I been spotted by a small group killed them with sword dash and come away undected even though they had seen me. compared to me bumping into the back of an enemy when i was trying to strong slash him which alerts everyone even though the guy died in a quarter of a second later without even seeing my face.

Point 7 - Intrigues me Im saddened at the lack of an enviromental hazard obstacle course i find that it would be a far more unique one to the target but like you said if they don't want to change any of the map design thats fine - its great already... Just not perfect ;D

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More XP per kill means the statistically best way, hands down, is to stealth kill everything. I don't think there should be a "right way" from a rewards perspective.

There can be an XP reward to balance it out, just don't tie it to kills. It doesn't even really make sense from a stealth approach either. You'd be rewarded for killing everything, I don't think that's really congruent with stealth gameplay.

Is that more clear?

EDIT: One idea could be to award XP for each enemy that didn't spot you. You wouldn't need to kill them but you'd still get the XP. Not perfect but something along those lines.

alright, i will try to explain itas simpel as i can on fingers. when you play stealth it's optional way to play. when you play in stealth you risc WAY more then regular gunblazing.

look at farcry 3. you recieve more exp for silent assasinations of enemies, but there is no "right way" and you can always just shot em all, just like in deus ex human revolution. you can go all stealthy or you can simple shoot them all.

now. why xp bonus for stealth kill?

because it's harder to pull of.

because you most likely would not kill more then 5-7 enemies at most.

because it's a nice motivation to go stealth here instead of playing real stealth games like mgs, deus ex, hitman blood money, or tenchu.

it's a well working standart for any game that have any stealth mechanics. if it's working everywhere why do you think it would not work here?

afterall noone force you to be masochists like we are who enjoy that kind of gameplay, but this is a nice and sweet bonus for people who enjoy stealth games, which also mean bringing more people to game.

btw tenchu must be a good source of inspiration for stealth gameplay.

Edited by n7snk
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alright, i will try to explain itas simpel as i can on fingers. when you play stealth it's optional way to play. when you play in stealth you risc WAY more then regular gunblazing.

look at farcry 3. you recieve more exp for silent assasinations of enemies, but there is no "right way" and you can always just shot em all, just like in deus ex human revolution. you can go all stealthy or you can simple shoot them all.

now. why xp bonus for stealth kill?

because it's harder to pull of.

because you most likely would not kill more then 5-7 enemies at most.

because it's a nice motivation to go stealth here instead of playing real stealth games like mgs, deus ex, hitman blood money, or tenchu.

btw tenchu must be a good source of inspiration for stealth gameplay.

It's like you didn't read my post at all. I already said that the rewards should be consistent between an agressive and stealthy playstyle.

The bonus should not be tied to kills though. What if I want to take a non-lethal approach? That shouldn't be rewarded? There should be no bonus for that? That's totally non-sensical. The reward you get from a stealthy approach shouldn't be directly tied to how many things you kill.

None of your points address why the rewards should just be tied to kills, except that it's harder to kill things without being spotted, except that's irrelevent because if you're not spotted, the rewards can be tied to other things.

i will try to explain itas simpel as i can on fingers.

You really butchered that expression.

Edited by Rhynocerous
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It's like you didn't read my post at all. I already said that the rewards should be consistent between an agressive and stealthy playstyle.

The bonus should not be tied to kills though. What if I want to take a non-lethal approach? That shouldn't be rewarded? There should be no bonus for that? That's totally non-sensical. The reward you get from a stealthy approach shouldn't be directly tied to how many things you kill.

None of your points address why the rewards should just be tied to kills, except that it's harder to kill things without being spotted, except that's irrelevent because if you're not spotted, the rewards can be tied to other things.

You really butchered that expression.

sorry, english is not my naitive, so i can't say for sure if this expression sound okay in english or not.

well to solve this you can just add bonus xp for finishing level being undetected. problem solved mostly, except levels with bosses.

Edited by n7snk
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OP, Overall I like the direction of your suggestions.

Though i have some changes I would like to mention

1) more exp for stealth kills.

so masochists like me who enjoy stealth will actually have a motivation to complete whole level undetected instead of doing it for the sake of doing it.

This is actually not a great idea. While a stealth playthrough does take a lot longer you are only likely to kill less enemies IF the system forces that kind of choice. Since alerts spawn enemies and you implement cooldowns on alerts then someone could potentially keep stealth kill farming a level.

this promotes the idea that stealth killing is "better" than speed killing which isnt right emotionally.

So if they do go with extra kill xp for stealth killing it should be a rather small bonus.

Instead add a system where you get XP for various stealthy actions such as evasion.

Mark Of the Ninja for example really nailed that. If youre hiding in a closet when a guard walks buy you get a small amount of xp.

Its saying "good job you are sneaky" loud and clear.

2) level restart option in solo.

just one more button in menu to restart level

I'm ok with this but it does trivialize some of the stress of trying not to let enemies find you if you know you can just start it over right away.

3) backstab

this will be very comfortable way to kill enemies instead of strong attack which don't work for every type of enemies.

yes, a grapple kill animation from the grab button seems ideal for the heavier enemy types who dont die from one charge attack.

Though we need to keep this balanced with the need for the player to mod for it if that is their intent.

Currents ystem requires that we spec into increased melee damage to effectively one shot enemies from stealth.

Charge attacks are automatic crits on unaware enemies.

I propose that any stealth animation be beholding to similar rules.

1: that you must spec into melee damage and 2: that its one a unware enemy...that one was obvious.lol

4) enemy view cons if you are undetected

if you are undetected you should see enemies with cons of view on your minimap untill you got caught, if so your radar flashing red and you don't see enemies positions anymore, but it have alert cooldown, so it's not a situation where one mistake fucks up the whole mission

just look at metal gear solid seris and how it's done in any of these games.

yes, I have been thinking the same thing. The enemy/camera vision cone is so important to how we know when to move and when not to.

Though it arguably too helpful.

A tenchu like system is also an option.

Or if there are enough stealthly movement options then these crutcehs become less and less required.

Like in splinter cell for example/

5) alert system.

if one enemy seen me for a second, everyone else gets alerted, even tho i killed him in half of second later then i supposed to.

this is really annoying when one mistake fucks up whole my mission, may be there should be a alert cooldown

Yes,an alert cooldown and perhas something to do with hacking.

when you open door that require 2 players activation everyone gets alerted.

There should be a stealthy to open a door and a loud way.

aural decoy cause enemies to alarm too, what makes it pretty much useless.

i strongly recommend to change into simple sound/visual decoy like throwing rocks in farcry or coin in hitman and work like sound decoy in aliens vs predator, so enemy will just try to investigate aproximate location

Decoy has a use in open combat though. we dont want to loose that.

Also a simple sound decoy doesnt sound worthy of its own power on one frame.

That is more fitting is a standard ability/item/action that everyone can access.

Again the grab button comes to mind...can we not pick something up and throw it to distract guards?

loki's swith teleport should be silent

what the point to use it if you are getting spoted?

There is still a point but it would be even better if it was silent.

ash's shuriken should be silent aswell

Yep.

6) no respawning enemies if undetected,

i was stuck in the beginning for quite awhile and cut around 5 same types of enemies coming from doors. not fair at all.

True. Though spawning enemies could also be looked at as a constantly patroled area.

Stealths houldnt make the game so safe that you can clear an area and just hang out in it.

The combat stress needs to stay high, the best way to do that is to ask the player to keep hiding, stay aware of their surroundings and never feel "safe".

7) level design.

game needs more places to hide for example get on high ground etc. we have an ability to climb on obstancles, but we can't use it more then on occasion due current level design.

yes

Hiding in closests...hanging on under walkways....

This would do a lot for the stealth in the game.

8) dart gun

since game marketing model rely on player buying bigger and better weapons each now and then, i would like to suggest introducing gear specially for stealth. now we have auto hack items, we should go a bit furhter:

A weapon that can be used as a distraction or silent is one thing but this can go easily into the realm of easy mode.

The need to close in distance is a large part of what makes stealth challenging.

We need to be very careful with this one.

Edited by Ronyn
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there needs to be a silenced pistle to knock out camras.also i think unaware targets should die from 1 hit melee.the maps imo actualy suport stealthy game play just a lot of the big rooms are a chalange and locked doors do alert them automaticly plz fix (maby set it up where undetected you have to hack the door)

Edited by V1RTU5
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That aural decoy idea is really neat. I was thinking maybe stealth could be implemented into the current game as a separate state, where movement and actions are separate from the current gameplay. And as soon as you get spotted/alerted it goes into normal warframe.

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Some good ideas. The game currently gives you almost nothing if you complete a game all stealth. You just get the piddly 500 credits for finishing the mission, whatever junk you picked up, and no XP. Truly stealthy play doesn't get any form of XP, so guns blazing is always much more effective for leveling and drops than sneaking around undetected and shanking the boss. It's too bad, but whether or not the devs really designed it that way, I don't know.

Other games have used stealth offensively (aggressively) and with that, there's no need for bonus XP or anything like that. It's just another play style. The risk and skill is higher, but the rewards are the same. That's actually good. They do this by making frontal assaults weaker, but stealthy, surprise attacks stronger. In this way, you could be as powerful as a guy who goes guns blazing, but you never actually blaze those guns. You use invisibility, distractions, escape moves (e.g. smoke bomb) to mess with the enemies and still are just as, or more, effective as a guy spamming gorgon.

A really good spy in TF2 can dominate many players. He's stealthy, but has the power to back it up, and the weakness to make running and gunning bad for him. Same with Batman in the recent games, or Sam Fisher, although the latter scored you for your stealthiness, it was unnecessary as it felt like stealth was the "right" way to play. Deus Ex: Human Revolution also did it pretty well. Warframe doesn't do stealth well right now. It's just something you want to do if you play Loki/Ash, but it's still more effective to just run up to a guy and slash his face off.

Ultimately, I think DE needs to look at what they want stealth to do, and either remove it from the game as a warframe (tough call ;_; ), or enhance it to a level where it is as good as pew pew. It's currently in this middle ground of being an ineffectiveness tease.

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A common theme I'm noticing in this thread, something you may want to include in the original post;

The Devs have left stealth techniques open to progression but have not made progress into stealth just yet. This means that, while there are stealth mechanics available to us at current, the Devs haven't yet implemented them into any kind of stealth gameplay. It would be worth instead of complaining that stealth doesn't work, it would be a better idea to suggest ideas for the Devs to draw from, so that when they do decide to properly implement stealth into the game, there will be plenty of feedback for them to draw from the forums initially.

I'm not saying this thread is devoid of suggestions; on the contrary, there are plenty of great ideas here which the Devs should probably use (if they aren't already planning them, who else knows at current), but if you really want the Devs to take notice of your thread, you should make the layout more like this one. Yes, this thread already has elements of that one, wherein your own suggestions have been posted in a list at the top with explenations as to why you would like them implimented. But the good part about community forums is that everyone can have a say on your opinions, and together we can work out a good solution for everyone! So get updating that original post with everyone else's suggestions and arguments so we can all work out the best way to take stealth in this game. Do that, and this thread'll have a lot more survivability. :D

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A common theme I'm noticing in this thread, something you may want to include in the original post;

The Devs have left stealth techniques open to progression but have not made progress into stealth just yet. This means that, while there are stealth mechanics available to us at current, the Devs haven't yet implemented them into any kind of stealth gameplay. It would be worth instead of complaining that stealth doesn't work, it would be a better idea to suggest ideas for the Devs to draw from, so that when they do decide to properly implement stealth into the game, there will be plenty of feedback for them to draw from the forums initially.

I'm not saying this thread is devoid of suggestions; on the contrary, there are plenty of great ideas here which the Devs should probably use (if they aren't already planning them, who else knows at current), but if you really want the Devs to take notice of your thread, you should make the layout more like this one. Yes, this thread already has elements of that one, wherein your own suggestions have been posted in a list at the top with explenations as to why you would like them implimented. But the good part about community forums is that everyone can have a say on your opinions, and together we can work out a good solution for everyone! So get updating that original post with everyone else's suggestions and arguments so we can all work out the best way to take stealth in this game. Do that, and this thread'll have a lot more survivability. :D

well, i try to list ideas and give short explanation for each to exclude any possible missreading, and yeah i constantly update it, so for example, xp bonus for stealth kills was replaced by suggested xp bonus for completing sections etc.

i will surely try to make it look more appealing and organized.

thank you for showing interest in stealth and feedback!

Edited by n7snk
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well, i try to list ideas and give short explanation for each to exclude any possible missreading, and yeah i constantly update it, so for example, xp bonus for stealth kills was replaced by suggested xp bonus for completing sections etc.

i will surely try to make it look more appealing and organized.

thank you for showing interest in stealth and feedback!

Of course! :) While I have no interest in attempting a stealth-run with the game in its current state, I am eagerly awaiting these stealth-features to be implimented. It'll be fun re-experiencing the game from another perspective, and seeing how the Devs reward such meticulous strategy.

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I don't agree with more bonus XP for a stealth approach, it suggests that stealth is the "correct" way to play. I do agree with making stealth more viable though, but don't make it so stealth is the hands down statistically best approach.

I especially agree with point #6, it would be a great motivator for stealth, but in that case there should be an XP bonus to balance out what you'd lose for not fighting waves of enemies.

I have no issues with it personally, as you cannot kill a boss while being undetected.

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