Stealth Feedback & Suggestions Thread

[VelenoHargreaves]

...They added stealth kills in 7.0, dude.

Your point is? They added a flaw feature just to say "Look we are investing on Stealth Gameplay". But nothing more... Okay you can say they added shade, nice, you can (now) walk pass enemies without being seen. But what about agressive-stealth gameplay? You can also say, you have paris, yes indeed, but paris has a limited ammo, and cannot one shot all kinds of enemies (try one-shot kill a lvl 50 grinner commander, I dare you to make it). The same applies for the melee stealth-kill animation, it is not a kill, is just an attack, where your mods aren't added (elemental damages, organ shatter, pressure point and so on) They (the Devs) need to re-work stealth system to warframe.

 

You cannot walk your way through a high-level mission on stealth, (not without shade) because eventually you will be seen or need to go back to a room and wait to the guards to make their random paths and you realize that the room you just cleared are now full of enemies again due the respawn rate... (Another point that I think is a huge mistake. If the enemies aren't alerted due the alarmn they should not respawn...)

 

And Claymore1, stealth is a feature that had been discussed since the closed beta. Sure they only added now (on U7) but that doesn't make it an excuse to not improve it. And that's the point of this thread, to improve stealth-gameplay. And that's why I keep saying, Melee Stealth is a no-way to this game yet, for many many reasons...

Edited April 23, 2013 by VelenoHargreaves

[Thaumatos]

I've compiled a short list for things that I believe won't be too difficult to implement (then again, wth do I know) but would significantly improve the stealth aspect of the game.  I also have a few more complicated ideas that will most likely not be possible but would make stealth "feel" like its own form of gameplay.  Sorry if anything has already been said, but I guess you can take my saying it again as reinforced feedback!

 

Practical "stealth content" additions:

* Black+White screen effect while Tenno are undetected (optional in gfx settings)

* Flashlight on/off keybind

* Unable to spawn AI in the same room Tenno start the mission

* Decreased mob spawn in usual high-spawn chunks if Tenno are undetected

* Lighting effects darkened in areas that are the most beneficial hiding locations

* "Stealth" bonus upon completion of missions in the form of credits, not xp

* Melee stealth attacks considered 100% critical chance "charge" attacks

* No AI respawn while undetected

* "Silence" mods for long guns and sidearms in order to reduce (not remove) noise and detection level

* "Run Silent" warframe mod to reduce (not remove) alert status from running

 

 

Some stuff that would be more involved to implement:

* Look-down, Kill-down stealth attacks for +1 level above target

* "Hang" on ledges instead of auto-pull-up; Tenno visible from hanging ledge side only

* Ash's "Shuriken" skill given a short duration immobilize/stun kill opportunity (for AI attempting alert status)

* Multi-target melee stealth kill for enemies that patrol in packs

* Optional player-activated "Lockdown" effect to keep other patrols out of the same room

* Optional once-per-mission only "False Alarm" hack to 'reset' a mistake

[VelenoHargreaves]

I've compiled a short list for things that I believe won't be too difficult to implement (then again, wth do I know) but would significantly improve the stealth aspect of the game.  I also have a few more complicated ideas that will most likely not be possible but would make stealth "feel" like its own form of gameplay.  Sorry if anything has already been said, but I guess you can take my saying it again as reinforced feedback!

 

Practical "stealth content" additions:

* Black+White screen effect while Tenno are undetected (optional in gfx settings)

* Flashlight on/off keybind

* Unable to spawn AI in the same room Tenno start the mission

* Decreased mob spawn in usual high-spawn chunks if Tenno are undetected

* Lighting effects darkened in areas that are the most beneficial hiding locations

* "Stealth" bonus upon completion of missions in the form of credits, not xp

* Melee stealth attacks considered 100% critical chance "charge" attacks

* No AI respawn while undetected

* "Silence" mods for long guns and sidearms in order to reduce (not remove) noise and detection level

* "Run Silent" warframe mod to reduce (not remove) alert status from running

 

 

Some stuff that would be more involved to implement:

* Look-down, Kill-down stealth attacks for +1 level above target

* "Hang" on ledges instead of auto-pull-up; Tenno visible from hanging ledge side only

* Ash's "Shuriken" skill given a short duration immobilize/stun kill opportunity (for AI attempting alert status)

* Multi-target melee stealth kill for enemies that patrol in packs

* Optional player-activated "Lockdown" effect to keep other patrols out of the same room

* Optional once-per-mission only "False Alarm" hack to 'reset' a mistake

 

Those, my kind sir, are some nice (not all original, a few are) things they could add to make stealth a viable way to play. I just don't like the Black&White thing, looks too much Splinter Cell Conviction to me... But that could work some way around :x

 

A mod to boost enemy radar to see the vision cones of the AI would be most helpful

[Thaumatos]

Those, my kind sir, are some nice (not all original, a few are) things they could add to make stealth a viable way to play. I just don't like the Black&White thing, looks too much Splinter Cell Conviction to me... But that could work some way around :x

 

A mod to boost enemy radar to see the vision cones of the AI would be most helpful

 

Actually, making stealth look like SC:C would not be a bad thing.  Their system was probably the best non-magical stealth I've ever had the pleasure to play.  Yes, better than Assassin's Creed...don't let me get myself started...

 

However I was going for more of an infared/nightvision effect.  In dark areas with your flashlight turned off, you'd probably want to at least see silhouettes of what you would be sneaking by.

[SFkenny]

Conviction... was not.... a stealth game.... *blows up*

 

Sorry. Chaos Theory man to the core.

[rexkiller4]

also drop assassinations would be cool

and I would like to be able to play a whole match with the blade , so blade mechanics are in order .

Edited May 2, 2013 by rexkiller4

[SFkenny]

All bodies disappear anyway. Grineer burn away, infested melt, and Corpus explode.

[Thaumatos]

Conviction... was not.... a stealth game.... *blows up*

 

Sorry. Chaos Theory man to the core.

 

Conviction's stealth was simplified, fast-paced, and effective...but more importantly, it was fun.  SC:CT, while more intricate and developed, was built around a game with a slower pace.  Warframe isn't going to start checking the difference between your sound level and the environment's sound level in order to determine who hears you and where.  This game moves too quickly for that.

[VelenoHargreaves]

Let's not start a discussion about Splinter Cell, please. I have my thoughts about the game, but here is not the place and even the time to do that. Making Stealth in Warframe a viable way to play will need alot of re-work and polishment, but also will need an in-deep thought to not overpower the system like Skyrim and so other games where stealth is a no-brainer. This game needs to be fast, so slow-peaced stealth is not as simple as it looks to warframe. We need a fast+agressive way to play stealth, (not saying we will be running like farcry 3 and backstabing everysingle enemy in the back, but I'm not saying that we will be waiting for the enemy to pass by just to keep moving neither)

 

I'm up to insta-stealth-kills, or a huge buff-up to the current stealth-kill animation. I like to play melee, (alot of my weapons are melee so far) I don't feel the fairness in the current state of stealth for 3 core reasons

 

1º and most importantly You are not a Silent Ninja Assassin:

So far everything in warframe pointed the game to be a rush to the goal, where you hack & Slash everything in your way that are close, and shatters with bullets those who are far. Make Tennos Deadly ninjas but without the need (and urge) to alert the whole freaking ship just to kill one target. Doesn't matter if the enemy is twice as big as the tenno, if you rip his throat open with a dual fang or break his spine with a Scindo HE WILL DIE! And no that's not overpowered that's logical! That also is applied when you are playing with someone, alot of times I see myself invisible, with the enemy shooting my friend and I kill him, that is (on most of RPGs) considered a sneak attack of oppotunity. Stealth don't need to be always that pretty wait and kill thing. Stealth can be rushed IF, ONLY IF, worked properly.

 

2º Hiding and Secondary paths:

I'm putting those two together because both of them complete each other. We need secondary paths that make a viable way to the objective without the gun-blazing way. No need to make it without enemies, but at least with less of them.

 

What brings me to the third last but non-less-needed

 

3º Respawn rate:

How many times you my Tenno friends didn't have the frustration to be spotted by an enemy that just respawned behind you in the room you just cleared? That's a huge problem on stealth. If you cleared a room it should stay cleared of enemies (at least untill you get away from the room, like to tiles away or when the alarm is sounded).

[Mietz]

I dont think true multiplayer stealth gameplay can be made viable at all unless we add ranged stun weapons, or more utilities like distractions.

 

Look at games like MGS Peace Walker, it works reasonably well as a stealth action game in single-player but in MP it becomes largely a shooter with everyone just machinegunning everything.

 

The core of a stealth action game is that its mechanics are very specifically tailored to it and a straight up action approach is possible, but not favorable (else everyone will favor action gameplay).

 

To make WF a stealth action game and stealth actually viable, we would need to increase the action part difficulty significantly as to make the rush-rush gameplay not as viable as it is.

 

Corpus missions are imho the best missions to be modified as laser-grids and cameras play a role in detection and locking a player in, but they still are easily circumvented by just destroying everything.

[SFkenny]

I thought the Grineer missions were the most stealth-friendly since a large number of soldiers can be easily stealth-killed. 

 

Another thing to consider is patrol routes. At this point in time, all units patrol randomly about. There's no real rhyme or reason to how they patrol. It's basically impossible to stealth about unless you're tailing someone with Shade/Ghost. (Almost managed to make it to an artifact this way.)

 

I do appreciate an element of randomness with the patrols since you have to really watch where your enemies are to time your movements well. But walking into a wall or a duct the enemy can't actually access both break immersion and make it difficult to be stealthy.

 

 

 

[kaizer0002]

Or just make the reward for stealth higher to promote the time investment.

[Kennard]

Or just make the reward for stealth higher to promote the time investment.

Not good enough.

 

Also, to the people mentioning other stealth games, they are all not very viable in terms of stealth teams ( and WarFrame probably won't go for an inefficient direction like that either, unless a lot more stealth weapons are implemented). The goal of improving stealth play is obviously to make it more comfortable, a nice alternative to the rapid gunning down of enemies. As it is now, I don't think other stealth games can be completely relevent. Some aspects may be, but not the games themselves.

 

I stated some things we should aim for in the last post, but I'll restate them:

1. More equipment to suit stealth (which is already planned)

2. Frame fixes

3. Enemy AI

4. Level/Map design

 

That's the gist of what needs to be done, and just convincing the Devs of changing stealth this early in Beta phase is what the aim should be, since they are aiming for better stealth play in the longer term. We can specify suitable patterns that are effective to undo the problems of current stealth, not necessarily borrowing elements from other games on what stealth's entirety should be. The topic starter did a good job of stating the issues, it's only a matter of the Devs in the end to address them in the way they believe is correct, which we would then test and give feedback. At least that's more productive than arguing what the better stealth game is.

[ETQW]

I ask that made ​​it possible to pass steals mission not only for those warframes that have this ability, but for all other too. Often, there is a bonus mission to kill 10 unsuspecting enemies. Playing for the Trinity, for example, is very problematic. Specific suggestions:

1) could detect if the player, it is logical that the signal detection lasted well, one or two zones close and not on the entire map of the mission. Otherwise it will be impossible to feel the atmosphere of stealth. And let the enemies do not immediately sound the alarm from nowhere and run to a specific terminal.
2) in the case of the infected I think it's fair that hard infected too will die from hidden attacks on the script, but otherwise they have to crawl.
3) is the same as that in paragraph 2, but with regards to heavy Grenier.

[Mewtiger]

Wow I like a ton of the stealth ideas in this thread.

 

I bought the Paris to take a swing at stealth, and I really like the immersion you can feel when sneaking through ships with it.

 

If there was one thing I could add (maybe someone mentioned it already) it would be the ability to destroy control consoles so enemies cant cause shipwide alert. Unfortunately this might conflict with lockdowns (getting locked in with no working consoles) and other stuff, but I remember a time when I sprayed the console some meleeneer was running for and he still managed to lightly tap the console with his finger before he was mercilessly wall-stapled by a trillion furious Boltor bolts.

[Kithkyubi]

 

2º Hiding and Secondary paths:

I'm putting those two together because both of them complete each other. We need secondary paths that make a viable way to the objective without the gun-blazing way. No need to make it without enemies, but at least with less of them.

 

All of my yes. I mean, most of the time, your character enters the starting room through the vents undetected--why can't they sneak into other rooms in similiar manners? Additionally, the many of the current maps have intricately hidden/built secret areas--why can't some of that intricacy be thrown into linking maps together. Granted, it'll prove a challenge matching the secret passages up between rooms, considering they're randomly generated, but if enough oppurtunities are placed within the same room, it shouldn't be THAT difficult to match them.

 

Also, too, this could be another oppurtunity to incorporate the parkour aspect of the game. Despite, all the oppurtunities and the versatility of the parkour system, I hardly see anyone use it--not even horizontal wall-run boosts to get from one side of the map to the other. Its just the same old "Oh, hell, it's another vertical fan entrance--man these things are tiresome" and that's pretty much it.This ties into my thought about hiding spots. I believe there are plenty as is...well, if you want to be holding down crouch and duck-walking after enemies the entire match. There should be some overhead hiding spots which players can use the parkour as an effective evasion method to get to.

 

Also, along the lines of having less enemies in the secret routes--I believe this is a valid point and it should also be enforced in sections of the existing maps. THERE SHOULD NOT BE A WHOLE PLATOON PATROLLING AN OUT OF THE WAY FAN DUCT. PERIOD. There shouldn't be many enemies using that overhead vent passage that links two portions of the same map in the space ship environment via removed grate segments. These are passages that the enemy shouldn't really even consider unless following a player in pursuit. EMPHASIS ON PURSUIT. They shouldn't stage an ambush ahead of the players within the passage, but they should do so outside the exit point instead, UNLESS the exit has an unbroken fan or grate there. It should be more like the movies--these particular passages being random inspirations of oppurtunity--something that only maybe the maintenence crew (who aren't featured) and the player who just noticed it should know about--NOT EVERY MARINE IN THE SHIP.

 

Also, that would be an ineresting feature, once a plausible stealth system has been employed: worker units. Like lightly armed or unarmed maintenance persons in the ship environment who remain stationary, working repairs on whatever, until they notice the player, at which their first response should be to run to a panel and sound the alarm. It should be a little bit harder for them to notice the player given they are focused on their assigned task and will most likely be stationed in or around some of the secret passages, serving as a living road block who must be removed or subdued in a manner that doesnt alert the guards before the players can advance stealthily. For the asteroid environement there should also be miners, serving the same function

 

Lastly, there SHOULD be a sizeable reward for either completing the mission undetected or a certain amount of the mission undetected (up until you reach the objective, especially on resue missions). It's not a matter of defining the "correct way" to play the game--it's a matter of the effort and time that is put into the mission to remain stealthy should have a matching reward. Besides, this wouldn't really set a "correct way" to play the game, as you could run and gun multiple missions much faster than stealth efforts, reaping mission rewards faster, whereas stealth efforts should be more about the "big haul." Now granted, this is all would have to be scaled accordingly in relation to just how streamlined the resulting stealth system ends up being.

 

Now, if that doesn't sound balanced enough, there could be introduced a speed-par system as well. So that either way you play, there is a unique "goal." Also, there should be unique rewards for the completely stealthy goal and the speed run goals, say maybe a bonus mod being rewarded for each, but of one of two respective selections.

Edited April 26, 2013 by Kithkyubi

[Weird_Stealth]

Here's my suggestion for stealth.

Don't have the large enemies spawn when in stealth, if they can't be killed by one assassination move, then they shouldn't spawn.

A little meter of sorts that lets the player know rather or not he/she has been seen, or at risk of being seen.

[Aure7]

So I tried to go stealth with my ash and friend's loki (perfect, right?) well we were detected at the VERY beginning of missions. We spawn, loot a couple of containers when the door nearby opens because of the grinner going trough, then like a second after another marine way far away activated the alarm. He was no even looking at us, but we saw him as the door opened. This just kept happening, later we managed to kill a couple of  marines undetected, but it ended soon too. You manage to dispatch quite a few of them, but the rooms are so big that someone of them will spot us from like 150 meters away and fly to the panel in miliseconds. 


...and big enemies are ok as long as you can take out the small ones around so they don't trigger the alarm.

 

[FenrisulfrV]

Anyone recommend a supressor mod for guns? It might cost 1 or 2 slots, but I'd love to have one, even if just for the pistol.

[SFkenny]

^ THIS. Sound suppressors should be available in the future.

[Boomstick720]

Anyone recommend a supressor mod for guns? It might cost 1 or 2 slots, but I'd love to have one, even if just for the pistol.

I'm fairly certain that the latron is automatically silenced, or at least more so than most other rifles I've used.  I've fired this within 10 feet of an enemy with no reaction or anything.

 

Alternatively, the Paris is always a viable option, but it would be nice to see a pistol that is silenced.  Of course, you'd likely either have to make it a decent mod, or add some sort of negative attributes to keep it from being OP.

[BlazingBlade]

My 2 cents, stealth should be a viable alternative to gunplay, probably with an exp bonus (since it takes more time and effort to stealth through a mission, this should put it on par/slightly ahead of the standard method of play)

Unrelated, I also think getting kills during wallruns or other stylish kills should earn bonus exp, if they don't already

[hes2krazy]

just a normal suggestion 

 

i wonder about an instant reload mod for guns, since alot of primary guns take alot of time to reload and their could be hords of enemies infront of you, would be nice if u can just instantly reload. of course to not make it op make it like the stun mod witch is 2.5% chance

 

[x3Darkie]

Make back stab deals 9999 damage. Instant stealth kills on higher hp dudes. Just my two cents.

[SFkenny]

^ That would break bosses.