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Stealth Feedback & Suggestions Thread


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I am a bit confused by this thread. 

 

1) Members of the community have requested an optional cover mechanic.

2) DE stated that no cover mechanic will be added because such a system has no place in a fast paced shooter such as warframe.

3) Why is a stealth mechanic threat stickied if they are not going to introduce content that has no place in a fast paced shooter?

You are incorrect about no. 2.  DE said that it has no place in a fast paced action game such as Warframe.  It's not just a shooter.  Or so they claimed.

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DE said that they are working on stealth...

 

I see the cover system as the in between of fast paced and stealth.

 

You have to choose to do the mission in stealth or go run'n'gun.

I know that they said that they are working on stealth. The reason that I am confused is that they created a stealth mechanic(not fast paced) while at the same time they are saying that they will not introduce a cover mechanic because it is not fast paced. Do you not see how it is impossible to make both of this statements without one of them being false?

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I know that they said that they are working on stealth. The reason that I am confused is that they created a stealth mechanic(not fast paced) while at the same time they are saying that they will not introduce a cover mechanic because it is not fast paced. Do you not see how it is impossible to make both of this statements without one of them being false?

Yeah, the statements doesn't fit. I assume that they think once you start shooting, you shouldn't stop.

 

I not really want a cover system to the game. I let DE choose what they think is better for they and the game.

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Cover system like in Gears of war, is not the same as adding Stelth.

They have tried to stay away from doing it since update 6. But we, mainly this thread, keep nudging them.

Enemy awareness, places to hide, silent kills, alarm cool-downs are what they really need to work out.

Maby update 10.5?

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Oh, those of you who are stealth players, consider levelling up Dagger type weapons. Those have the fastest stealth kill animation, since they are a simple throat stab, unlike the more acrobatic "leap on opponents shoulders and slit throat" move for dual weapons, or the impale animation for long swords.

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Oh, those of you who are stealth players, consider levelling up Dagger type weapons. Those have the fastest stealth kill animation, since they are a simple throat stab, unlike the more acrobatic "leap on opponents shoulders and slit throat" move for dual weapons, or the impale animation for long swords.

I tested and dagger stealth kill animation take the same time of the long sword. After cutting the throat, we do a something like spin.

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Cover system like in Gears of war, is not the same as adding Stelth.

They have tried to stay away from doing it since update 6. But we, mainly this thread, keep nudging them.

Enemy awareness, places to hide, silent kills, alarm cool-downs are what they really need to work out.

Maby update 10.5?

The thing is that a cover mechanic is a big part of stealth. Instead of thinking of a cover mechanic such as the one used in gear of war, you should look at the cover mechanics used in stealth oriented games such as the tenchu and metal gear solid series. They used a cover mechanic that was a big part of their stealth, and so should warframe. The most important part of adding a stealthy cover mechanic is that it must be voluntary and should never activate automatically when you walk up to a wall. If people wish to use the normal cover mechanic that they currently use, then they should be allowed to do that instead of being forced into a "back to wall" cover mechanic.

 

Another cool thing that the tenchu series did is the use of different stealth kill animations depending on the angle of attack. For example, if you jump off a second story onto the first and use your attack button when you are right over and behind an enemy, you should be able to execute a falling stealth attack that stabs the sword through the enemies back for a guaranteed kill.

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The thing is that a cover mechanic is a big part of stealth. Instead of thinking of a cover mechanic such as the one used in gear of war, you should look at the cover mechanics used in stealth oriented games such as the tenchu and metal gear solid series. They used a cover mechanic that was a big part of their stealth, and so should warframe. The most important part of adding a stealthy cover mechanic is that it must be voluntary and should never activate automatically when you walk up to a wall. If people wish to use the normal cover mechanic that they currently use, then they should be allowed to do that instead of being forced into a "back to wall" cover mechanic.

 

Another cool thing that the tenchu series did is the use of different stealth kill animations depending on the angle of attack. For example, if you jump off a second story onto the first and use your attack button when you are right over and behind an enemy, you should be able to execute a falling stealth attack that stabs the sword through the enemies back for a guaranteed kill.

The idea of multiple stealth kill angles would be AWESOME.

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1. Limited enemies

 

2. AI

 

3. Paths

 

4. Maps

 

5. Abilities/cover

 

Can Stealth be implemented?

1. This is a valid point.

 

At the start of the game (unalerted state), Enemies could be limited in number. A code could determine the minimum distance they'd have to have between them at the start of the round. When the ship is alerted, enemies could start spawning, but it'd be necessary to make it possible to put the ship back in an unalerted state.

 

2. No contradictions there. AI needs reworking. The randomness could, however, be tamed by aggro mechanics. 

 

3/4.

 

Light and Dark mechanisms could also help equalize a lot of the problems presented here. The wide, open maps don't prevent stealth. I think if sight impairing abilities like Radial Blind are expanded on, we could start to see something. I mean, by making increasing stealth possibilities in darker places, we could see some really cool, fresh stealth mechanics.

 

If we have a dark room and light is shined in an area, the light could aggro, thus acting as a sort of path/course-changing mechanism. The darkness could lower the enemies' lines of sight. Mods could enable Tenno to see the Enemy lines of sight. 

 

Of course, if stealth is implemented, I don't think they'd have too much trouble designing maps to support Stealth. They redid maps when they included parkour. 

 

5. I don't think sticky cover really is necessary to enable stealth. Crouch seems enough. Alternatively, if rafters or high ground are added, The grappling hook and parkour may make up for the lack of cover while also giving us a stealth system that is completely fresh and original.

 

...

 

When I refer to aggro mechanics and path changing, I'm talking about simple things you see in other games like throwing a glass bottle or a stone to make an enemy go where you want. This could be done using flashlight toggle and moves relating to light such as Radial Blind. 

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1. This is a valid point.

 

At the start of the game (unalerted state), Enemies could be limited in number. A code could determine the minimum distance they'd have to have between them at the start of the round. When the ship is alerted, enemies could start spawning, but it'd be necessary to make it possible to put the ship back in an unalerted state.

 

I am not a fan of putting a ship back into unalerted space. If an enemy manages to alert everyone of your presence, then your punishment for failing to keep that from happening should be for everyone to know that you are there. The following is how I believe the system should work.

 

1) Enemy spots you, he either attacks you or he runs to alert allies.

2) You stop the enemy from alerting his allies, or the rest of the ship is alerted to your precense.

3) Enemies should be alerted of your general location, and must begin a search to find you. The enemies should be on the lookout and alert, but they should only be able to attack you if they actually see you. That means that you should continue to be able to execute a stealth mission, but that the enemies are on a "high alert" mode that will make it easier for them to see you.

 

There should never be a "stealth reset." your punishment should be that continuing the mission from stealth will be a lot more difficult. 

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3) Enemies should be alerted of your general location, and must begin a search to find you. The enemies should be on the lookout and alert, but they should only be able to attack you if they actually see you. That means that you should continue to be able to execute a stealth mission, but that the enemies are on a "high alert" mode that will make it easier for them to see you.

 

There should never be a "stealth reset." your punishment should be that continuing the mission from stealth will be a lot more difficult. 

So long as point 3 is also implemented, I wouldn't mind it not being possible to put the ship back in an unalerted state.

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So right now we have this problem that stealth attacks don't scale in any way with the enemy level, making them woefully underpowered in higher level ranges. To combat that, I think stealth attacks should revolve around a "swing meter" mechanic usually seen in sports games like golf of baseball. They are also used in other games, but it's the sports genre where they are most prominently featured.

 

Anyway, the mechanic would work like this: Upon sneaking up behind an unaltered enemy, the familiar stealth attack dialogue pops up, but instead of just pressing the melee button and executing a standard stealth attack, keeping it pressed brings up a 'precision meter' with a needle moving back and forth along its scale. This scale determines how precise the stealth attack is and therefore the amount of damage dealt to the enemy, raging from red(almost missed) to green(guaranteed kill). The closer the needle is to the "sweet spot", visualized by the green area in the pictures, the more accurate the attack will be. Releasing the melee button will execute the stealth attack. If the sweet spot is missed, the chances of the enemy not dying from the attack increase dramatically, however the target will stagger as long as the attack was at least semi accurate, which in the images is visualized by the yellow area, allowing players to attempt a second stealth attack in the same fashion. If the target moves out of range during the aiming period, the action will be canceled.

 

The higher the enemy level is, the more narrow the sweet spot on the precision scale is, leaving less room for error and requiring the player to time their attacks more precisely.

Technically, this makes the stealth attack a damage modifier based the player's melee weapon and the enemy's heath multiplied by the accuracy of the precision meter. Assuming the health of the target is 1200 and the accuracy of the stealth attack is 92% out of a maximum 110%, the total damage dealt will be weapon damage + critical bonus + (1200*0.92). In late and endgame, this allows the base damage of your melee weapon act as a cushion for imperfect aiming, killing target even if the precision alone would not have been enough.

 

Images:

 

Low level stealth attack meter.

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Medium/High level stealth attack meter.

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Edited by AuroraSonicBoom
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So right now we have this problem that stealth attacks don't scale in any way with the enemy level, making them woefully underpowered in higher level ranges. To combat that, I think steal attacks should revolve around a "swing meter" mechanic usually seen in sports games like golf of baseball. They are also used in other games, but it's the sports genre where they are most prominently featured.

 

A meter for stealth attacks would be interesting, but there should be certain attacks that do not require the meter. An example of such an attack would be when you jump off a high ground and attack an enemy without them spotting you. The "meter" for this attack would be you pressing the attack button at the right moment. Too early and you do not execute a stealth attack, too late you do not execute a stealth attack.

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5. I don't think sticky cover really is necessary to enable stealth. Crouch seems enough. Alternatively, if rafters or high ground are added, The grappling hook and parkour may make up for the lack of cover while also giving us a stealth system that is completely fresh and original.

 

 

I feel like sticky cover would add to the feeling of being a stealthy space ninja. Simply hiding behind object in the current third person would not feel that special. Putting your back to the wall while peeking around corners would have a much better feel to it than using the same third person perspective that we currently use when shooting enemies.

Edited by whitejackale
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I'm not sure if any one mentioned this, but some of us are having trouble getting stealth kills when we got shade. The trouble is that going behind unalerted enemies do not bring out the contextual use to stealth melee sometimes. Thanks for letting us give feed backs. peace.

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Hey, I just had this idea regarding infestation and how that might be tweaked. 

 

One of the problems with stealth is that there isn't a fixed number of spawns. More NPC's can spawn in the middle of the game. 

 

I thought that maybe, instead, we could have units of three ancients traveling about the map at the beginning. the number of these is fixed. These don't spawn. at the beginning of the game, there are no grunts (chargers, leapers, or runners). Within each unit is a healer ancient. Healer ancients will be reworked. All offensive abilities will be removed from healers. They will become more tanky. They will be blind and have AoE line of sight based on hearing. They follow one Disrupter and one Toxic. If the Healer "sees" you, it hits the ground and runs. It continues hitting the ground every 10 seconds or so. Every ground hit summons insane numbers of "grunts". I mean INSANE numbers. So much so that it's easy to become inundated (even for Warframe standards). 

 

Why did I bring this up? Because it allows for a rework of Infestation and stealth play. My wishlist for stealth is light/dark affecting enemy behavior, one hit kill/insanely powerful stealth attacks (it should do way more than charge attack damage), stealth attacks being possible so long as you're out of enemy lines of sight (even if they know you're aboard), and drop down stealth kills (dropping from ledges).

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I haven't read every single post here so it may have come up already, but maybe another suggestion:

 

When crouched, after a stealth kill. You become uncrouched. And auto recrouch would be nice. (for those with toggle crouch, like I do.)

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I feel like sticky cover would add to the feeling of being a stealthy space ninja. Simply hiding behind object in the current third person would not feel that special. Putting your back to the wall while peeking around corners would have a much better feel to it than using the same third person perspective that we currently use when shooting enemies.

If DE doesn't want any more 'Stop and Pop' game play, whenever you're using cover, disable range weapons.

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I agree that the game needs  a lot of work in its stealth system. But the use of a sticky cover system would definitely be nice. It would definitely help in both stealth and open combat. After all, if the enemies can hide behind cover why can't we? And the stealth attack needs a good increase in damage. Many times I have stealth attacked an enemy only for it to survive the attack and alert every other enemy forcing me to guns blazing. Also, I noticed that in the invasion missions where two or more factions are slugging it out with each other, it didn't really feel like they are fighting each other. I see the occasional grunt fighting and thats it. More like two factions camping in their own controlled sector. I just went from one sector controlled by the Grinneer to a Corpus controlled area. There should be larger scale battles between the factions to make it seem more realistic and to provide distractions for you to sneak past them more easily. Another topic I would like to bring up is the environmental hazards. Like when you do a sabotage mission, sometimes the reactor will cause a self-destruct sequence giving you a time limit to escape. You should also add random explosions to make it seem like the ship or the facility is becoming unstable and giving you a feel of imminent destruction. I also noticed you added weather hazards such as the cold causing your shields to be at half capacity for the duration of the mission. Why not add more weather hazards such as lightning storms for example which randomly strikes exposed areas and disables all shields within a small strike radius? Plus, I noticed that planetary missions are all set during the day. Why not make some missions in the night? It would certainly give a more stealthy feel to the game.

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Edited-and-improved copy-paste from another thread, because "why not"

 

Enemies still love to all run simultaneously to the nearest alarm panels, sometimes in areas where nobody could have possibly heard you slicing someone up with a melee weapon (even stealth kills sometimes trigger enemy alarm runs in nearby rooms), and giving you no way to intercept them all at once.  You would imagine that a Grineer would come to check out a noise or a shadow he saw moving around, not instantly set the entire base on red alert and then being all "ooops, sorry, a space-rat startled me".

 

An "investigation" mode should start where they go through the area and check possible hiding spots. Most likely with another ally (or two, moving as a squad) to cover their back, clearing corners and such, checking rafters, atop boxes, etc. In which cases shadows should make the Tenno able to hide, with the enemy using flashlights to illuminate the areas.

 

It could also be possible to hack a control panel to disable them from activating alarms / return status to normal/low awareness, with the enemy going back to their normal routine guard duty (slowly shifting into lowered guns / less-aware state).

 

Also, a thing that needs to be really worked on, is the spawning-and-charging mechanic, whereby enemies spawn in and instantly run towards the Tenno's position, even if he/she is cloaked. With the enemy just stopping right aside them, looking around and then sloooowly moving around or away. They shouldn't magically home in on the current position, but the area where an enemy last saw you. And go from there to try and find you.

 

Maybe a light-control mechanic wherein you can disable a sector's light by destroying control panels, forcing the enemy to use flashlights to detect you, possibly with a visual cue on the minimap as to where they're currently facing (detecting the light- or scanner-cone emitted from their weapon/heads (MOA)).

Edited by ScorpDK
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