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Stealth Feedback & Suggestions Thread


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I did try to do a few stealth missions lately and it was fun, nice break from the usual kill fest, but there are some obvious problems that make stealth very hard or rather punishing alternative.

 

1) Enemies don't have clear patrol routes, they just walk around randomly. Enemies move very inconsistently sometimes stopping for a moment and sometimes standing in one spot truning around for ages. AI pathfinding is pretty bad too, enemies often get stuck on terrain and such. Ones you try to go stealth the issues of enemy AI become glaringly obvious.

 

2) Level design. It's MUCH easier trying to be stealthy on the newer map tiles, since they introduce more verticality and spots where you can hide in general. The old Corpus ship tileset is probably the hardest to sneak in. Especially Phobos is fun, since you can stalk enemies from various ledges. I don't know if those tiles vere made with stealth in mind, but they are much better in this regard.

 

3) Detection is permanent. Once you get detected that's it. Everyone instantly knows where you are. That shouldn't be the case. When you get detected enemies should take cover and start running around, but they should not be instantly aware of your location.

 

4) Stealth attacks should work on unaware enemies even after the alarm is sounded as long as they don't spot you.

 

5) Detection radius has to be tweaked, so enemies two rooms away can't hear gunshots. This is also very inconsistent, sometimes enemies extremely far away know about you, sometimes they don't. There were even cases in which half of the enemies in one room were alert and taking cover and the other half was walking around unalerted. The detection mechanics are kinda clunky.

 

6) No stealth tools, you can't distract enemies and enemy radar is pretty much a must. I actually made a habit of using scanner to pinpoint enemy locations. It's an excellent tool.. many stealth games have similar mechanic that allows you to track enemies. Again, I don't know if it was also intended for this use but Scanner makes stealth much easier and more fun. I'd like to see this extended. Also, we absolutely need a way to distract enemies... enemies will turn around when you shoot past them (with silenced weapon), but they won't go investigate.

 

 

Those are the things that need to be changed for stealth to be even viable.. not excellent, but viable.

 

Scanner was accidentally the best change to stealth in Warframe we got in months.

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Figured I would add my own post on adding stealth, and strategy into Warframe. Having looked through the thread, it seems like most of these ideas have already been mentioned in one form or another. Still figured I would post what I have. If you have already mentioned something I post here consider this support for your idea.

:)

So here are a couple of ideas to bounce around.

To start off the strategic depth idea, I’d like to look at the game from the AI’s perspective. A one too four man Tenno team has invaded their star ship/base undetected. Command is made aware of said Tenno team once an alarm is tripped. At that point what would they do?

· Lock the ship/base down. (Doors/shields.)

· Send crew to their stations.

· Have security teams set up at choke points.

· Reinforce important areas.(bridge/engineering/precious cargo/armory/command/etc.)

· Send teams to sweep the area, and find the intruders.

So let’s lock all the doors once an alarm gets tripped. Then spawn barricades with security teams in various rooms. Have the objective reinforced with more/heavier units. Have roaming security teams spawn in various rooms just like what normally happens. That should encourage people to try and stay stealthy, and keep from being detected for as long as possible.

Have the units at a barricade stay with their barricade, and defend it. Let them use grenades and suppressing fire as normal, but have them hold against assault while their reinforcements come in. This could open up options for crew served weapons, flanking teams, shield barriers, and AI that can take advantage of all of it.

Keep security teams spawning at regular intervals once an alarm has been triggered. Every time the Tenno take on a barricade, or a roving security team someone should have reported the Tennos location. Spawn security teams to reinforce the group reporting contact with the attacking Tenno.

Now we take a look at things from the Tennos perspective. They just infiltrated an enemy ship/base, and there are only one too four of them VS the hundreds of enemies on board. Being detected would be bad since even they have trouble taking on that many. So stealth is key, and they will need ways to stay stealthy. Taking the enemy down silently, and without being seen is very ninja. But they are in the middle of a well lit star ship/base so they will need some help practicing the art of invisibility.

Give all of the Tenno a predator like stealth effect while moving slowly, or crouched to reduce the range at which they can be seen. Make hiding in shadows lower your visibility even further. (Loki, and ash can still have perfect invisibility powers.) I believe you already have a system in place for sound levels alerting enemies, which is good. Add in a visibility indicator a la Thief/Splinter cell, and stealth options start looking good. Backstab instant kills,(except for heavies/bosses) and powerful melee weapons for silent take downs will be essential to remaining undetected. A special melee attack that can break an enemies gun would be helpful for taking on Heavy enemies.

Once detected you can still try and sneak, but it will be harder with security teams looking for you. However with some skill, even in combat you should be able to run out, and hack someone down then disappear into the shadows to strike again. Or shoot someone down then fade away to take up another position.

Stealth alone isn’t all a ninja is known for. Misdirection, and skillful use of your environment will help even any odds. So now lets take a look at hacking a consol. There are many options with hacking, and I will try and cover a few. The basic idea is that when you hack a consol you will have a list of options to choose from. Depending on your hacking ability (or mods) you can only choose a certain amount.

· Hack into a consol to shut lights off in an room for (X) minutes, or seconds.

· Hack to shut, or open doors in an room. Lock enemies on the other side, or open up an alternate route.

· Hack to shut down communications for a room. So no one inside can report an attack.

· Hack a consol to cancel a recently raised alarm. Have to hack before reinforcements arrive.

· Hack a consol, and create false reports of Tenno in other parts of the ship to reduce the number of enemies in roving, and reinforcement spawns.

· Hack a consol, and trigger fire containment response. All doors to the room shut, and will not open.(unless hacked) Also have fire retardant chemicals pumped in that create a visibility reducing haze to disorients the defenders. Could be useful for cutting of a barricade from reinforcements while you’re taking it down.

· Hack a consol to change the atmosphere, and create a heavy fog that makes you harder to see.

· Hack communications on a heavy unit after you’ve taken out a barricade, and create a false report that your Tenno were wiped out. Let it reset the alert conditions for (X) minutes so you can go back to sneaking around.

· Hack turrets/shield turrets in a room. Disable them or have them help you out.

That’s about it for now. Hope ya’ll like the ideas.

Edit: Actually one more thing. Instead of just powerful melee weapons try a 2x damage bonus for your first shot on any in alerted enemy. Make it a 3x if you hit them in the back. That would encourage the use of quiet, and silenced weapons. This would not replace backstab insta kills.

 

I think you have some very good ideas here. Particularly, the idea of looking at AI behavior based off the overall narrative. This has led you to some great reactions that could be added to the game. Love them.

 

However, you're making a broad statement about warframes not being able to handle hundreds-to-one odds, and the existing gameplay refutes that in almost every map type. Warframes excel at these odds, and some seem designed for it. Nova would be severely neutered by facing enemies one at a time, as her best power would do nothing but slow them down--heck, she could take on a thousand enemies at once and potentially kill them all with one Molecular Prime cast. In short, the more densely packed and the closer their proximity, the better Nova likes them. That is definitely not the case with a warframe like Loki, whose abilities lean towards avoiding combat altogether, or Frost, who does best when digging into a defensive position.

 

Following this narrative, warframes like these are going to set the alarms off on purpose! They want the enemy coming to them, and clustering up at choke points like cows into a slaughterhouse. Volt's going to sit behind his electric shield with Synapse (my personal fav tactic), and reap them like wheat as they rush him down a long hallway. Nyx is going to break up enemy formations with chaos, Rhino and Valkyr are going to stay out front to tank, Necros is going to be clogging up choke points with his army of dead, etc.

 

Plus, depending on the map, stealth won't be possible. Obviously, you're not going to attempt a stealth run on a Defense map; nor will it be possible on a Rescue mission after you get the hostage out of their cell.

 

So you see, sometimes, based on the warframe or map you've chosen, being stealthy is actually BAD for achieving your goals. You should take this possible narrative and work it into your AI reactions as well.

 

One to four warframes have: invaded the base...

1. The warframe(s) are tanks--heavily armed and armored, making lots of noise, breaking things and killing stuff.

A. Responses should avoid enclosed areas, setting up sniper units and deploying riot shield infantry to slow the warframe advance; heavy defense units should respond on the front lines; rollers and stomper moas galore; generally anything that will take away warframe mobility and keep them under long-range fire.

2. The warframe(s) were caught sneaking around the base--they're light, stealthy 'frames.

A. Base should be sealed up; all doors locked. Surveillance sentries should be deployed with patrol units in critical areas. Patrols should clear rooms as free of enemies, then those rooms are sealed and opened to vacuum. In this way, warframes are forced into smaller and smaller areas, and into the open where they can be cut down with overwhelming force.

 

One to four warframes have: set up a defensive position around a cryo pod...

Any way you cut a defense mission, the enemies are at a serious disadvantage to a moderately prepared team. Still...

1. Tank warframes:

A. Distribute small groups of units in a broad circle around the cryo pod, then pound it with long-range fire. Reinforce units as they are eaten up by heavy, slow warframes who are forced to abandon close defense of the pod in order to engage faction units.

Note: this strategy is completely screwed by the presence of a Frost, but then, Defense is ridiculously easy, even on the highest levels, when you have a high level Frost, and made even easier with the addition of a Nova or Vauban. I'd really like to see simultaneous, multiple-point defense.

B. Take off and nuke the site from orbit--it's the only way to be sure. (ha!)

2. Stealth warframes:

A. LOL

3. Light warframes

A. Most of these are casters who specialize in mob destruction, so avoid clumping groups together. As for tanks, attack the pod from maximum range.

 

 

One to four warframes have: invaded the base and swiped a hostage

1. Most players abandon the hostage as soon as they free them. Simply kill the hostage. Drop lots of mines and rollers in the path of the hostage and he dies quickly; checkmate, mission failed. This happens in about 50% of missions i've been in, when i'm the only one shepherding the hostage after he's freed, and you can't shoot the mines dropped by the Ospreys--your only choice is to detonate them early by running over them yourself. Thanks, you three guys waiting at extraction!

 

One to four warframes have: deliberately set off the survival alarms as a distraction for a separate spy mission

1. I'm not really certain what the narrative for this could possibly be. It's supposed to be that your team is creating a distraction for a separate spy team recovering data and intel. I would think that an enemy commander would start to think something was fishy with a set of warframes running around in his base doing nothing in particular other than killing units that came after them. If I sent a few waves after the warframes and they got annihilated, I'd try to figure out something else other than throwing more waves at them. Same strategy, different results? Hmm...no.

 

Wow, that's long.

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Let me toss my two cents in the wishing well…

 

First and foremost enough with the eternal alerts already.  I understand that it’s a way of keeping up the games pacing, but come on.  We definitely need a way to cancel alerts.  To me this has to be the top stealth priority.  It’s easily implementable and gives much needed pacing changes for those who want to take a slower stealthier approach.  That also aids those of use that play a lot of single player because there’s nothing better than getting trapped in a closet for ten minutes while the endless hordes of (insert enemy type here) swarm after you by the dozen after you open a door get seen by a guy walking by a door all the way across the room.  Maybe you can only cancel alerts from special security stations instead of the SOP control panel.  That way it’s not just a matter of oops, triggered an alert, clear the room and cancel it.  Then maybe you have to fight your way to security through several areas, or sneak there using ducts/grates/etc then take out the security force that will spawn there on alert.

 

Second, enough with the alerted behavior of I know EXACTLY where you are and how you are positioned.    I’m not of the “hand to hand only” stealth camp.  I’m of the “that’s what this sniper rifle is for” stealth camp.  I like to pick guys off from as far as I can… (and BTW DE I love the Hush mod)  …so I tend to notice more when a guy who has never seen me rushes hell bent into a room/area, around a corner an starts blazing away at me the second he clears that corner…despite the fact I’m crouching…behind a metal barrier…in the corner… at the other end of the hall…in a completely different room than I was spotted in.  As far as AI behavior this is the worst.  Of course AI isn’t the easiest thing to program.  I get that…but seriously, there’s alerted and then there’s x-ray vision.  Ideally I’d like a unit to have to at least see me before that unit knows exactly where I am.  I’m not saying unalerted, I’m saying search; extend the sight distance and the audio alert distance, or at least  pause to get visual sight before spraying the area with lead.  And sure if a guy sees me he should shout out a warning and draw others to the area…but they should not magically know where I went after that guy ran around a corner, died of lead poisoning or grew an extra knife in his throat.  They should head to the area and LOOK for me.  This is one of the things that make alerts so irritating in a stealth approach.  Stealth no longer matters after the alert.  No matter where you go or what you do every unit on the ship knows exactly where you are after an alert is triggered.

 

Third, spawning units.  This algorithm is soooooooo broken when it comes to stealth.  In your average run and gun session it can be inconvenient but isn’t devastating.  In a stealth session when you’ve cleared the room, checked everywhere and crept up to the next door, waited for the roamer on the other side to clear the immediate area, crept in and over to crouch behind a stack of boxes… it really makes you honked off to have two roamers just out of nowhere walk through the door right behind you, alert the room and then run like gazelles to the alert panel on the other side of the previous room.  That’s about the time I just bum rush the objective and speed run it out of the level because I’m done.

 

Fourth, what should they do on alert?  I love Brilig’s ideas of having them man stations and fortify areas as well as having teams sweep looking for intruders.  That’s awesome.  I’d love to see guys reacting more intelligently than just charging at me.  (And yeah, I know they take cover and run patterns and stuff and there’s nothing wrong with that, but it seems a little odd that they’d essentially send the crew at me in groups of five to ten at a time until they run out…for that area…why not reduce the charging hordes and have more guys defend doorways and choke points…that would be fairly cool.  You set off the alert and now instead of wave after wave of joe shmoe units rushing at you, you instead start to find yourself in bigger fire fights with those guys at doors and “key” points where their numbers will matter.  Obviously this behavior isn’t going to fly on every mission…defense missions are all about them trying to mob you, but there are a lot of missions that it makes sense on…hell survival makes a lot more sense using this idea.  Why rush you…your running out of air, you need to get past them more than they need to come to you.  Anyway…better variety of AI behaviors outside of the seminal “get them!”

 

So now that I threw all that out there let me add one last thing, that is typically stealth game play involves a bit more than not being seen.  See a good stealth game requires you to also deal with the repercussions of your actions.  So let’s say I’m going with the physical combat sneak up and take ‘em from behind method.  Ok I killed that guy, cool... now what?  Well someone is bound to notice a corpse laying there in the middle of the hall aren’t they?  It gets even sillier if you go with the sniper school, because apparently no one even notices that Bob’s head just exploded or that he just dropped harder than a rock.  Even if Bob is literally directly in front of them…  See with great AI comes great responsibility.  If your getting refined AI that has to behave more intelligently, you should HAVE to hide bodys, close grates, cover your tracks.  On the other had how does that track against a high action run…can’t track ALL those bodies forever…my thought would be bodies only decay in an alert state.  If you trigger an alert, all bodies decay and no new bodies are tracked till after the alert is canceled.  That way you don’t end up with data overload.  The other time a body can decay is if you move it to a “safe spot”.  That is to say dump it to an area that is “off limits”.  Basically anywhere that would cause a player to respawn or that the AI can’t see, ala air vents, floor grates, on  top of high ledges.  That way I can “clean up” the kill and not worry over someone finding it, as well as helping reduce data the system has to track.

 

Ok, blah blah blah.  This post now also available in hardcover and paperback wherever fine books are sold.

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Warframe is a bit fast paced to worry about hiding bodies. Perhaps what we could do instead is have the ability to trigger the body dissolver after stealth-killing a unit. For instance, Grineer and Corpus would have onboard computers with their suits, so hacking them after a stealth kill would allow players to more quickly dispose of a body without breaking game flow too much.

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However, you're making a broad statement about warframes not being able to handle hundreds-to-one odds, and the existing gameplay refutes that in almost every map type. Warframes excel at these odds, and some seem designed for it. Nova would be severely neutered by facing enemies one at a time, as her best power would do nothing but slow them down--heck, she could take on a thousand enemies at once and potentially kill them all with one Molecular Prime cast. In short, the more densely packed and the closer their proximity, the better Nova likes them. That is definitely not the case with a warframe like Loki, whose abilities lean towards avoiding combat altogether, or Frost, who does best when digging into a defensive position.

 

 

Your breakdowns for the various mission types are excellent. I didn't have the energy left after that post to try and break things down that far. I really like what you have.

 

I should have expanded on the part where I don't think Warframes should be able to so easily slaughter enemies in their dozens anymore. I know most of them can with 1 button press. Several of their powers are directed at murdering or CCing very large groups of enemies. Right now a lot of frames, even the light weight caster ones play more like space marines than ninjas.

 

I would like to see a reworking of some of the more robust powers/frames. Reduce the damage of abilities, or the number of enemies affected, or the range, or make them better at CC but less damaging, etc... Reason being a lot of the game currently lends itself to running into a room Rhino stomping,(just for example) and then sprinting to the next room to do the same. Some work needs to be done to take away the kill everything button(s) frames have so that people will be forced to rely on actual tactics.

 

A lot of good could also be accomplished as you suggested, if the enemies tactics change based on what frames show up. AI goes into counter tank style warframe mode, or counter caster frame mode, and what have you. Excellent, excellent idea.

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Warframe is a bit fast paced to worry about hiding bodies. Perhaps what we could do instead is have the ability to trigger the body dissolver after stealth-killing a unit. For instance, Grineer and Corpus would have onboard computers with their suits, so hacking them after a stealth kill would allow players to more quickly dispose of a body without breaking game flow too much.

Actually that would break the game flow, because if you have 3 enemies patrolling an area and you kill one, do you stay, and hack his suit to dissolve the body?

I think it should be implemented as a mod, or a perk to a warframe, just like the 'Intruder" mod gives you some extra time to hacking, maybe there shoould be a 'Jammer' mod, for enemies to automatically dissolve.

In "Mark of the Ninja" you had to equip a certain outfit for enemies to automatically disappear after a stealth kill, maybe a skin for loki/ash/nyx with this kind of perk.

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There -needs- to be a way to go back to being hidden.

 

Modern stealth games are so fun in that manner because you can pop out, be a master Black Ops butcher, then go back to hiding.

I'm still surprised you can't hack a terminal to signal an "all clear" as that would be all that's needed.

 

Plus I think you should be able to lock down certain doors with terminals near them and force enemy reinforcements (in case an alarm is tripped) to reroute. Hacking is so passive it's almost useless besides opening a randomly locked door.

 

Other than that the Codex Scanner is my favorite tool for stealth because free predator vision.

=====================================

Edit:

 

Also, because you're killing less enemies in a stealth-run they need better drops, better loot, and better mission rewards and XP.

I don't care if it's something as simple as extra credits and double XP, it just needs something to actually give people -incentive- to run a stealth mission.

 

Plus, stealth kills should always one-shot the enemy. Always. -Always.-

 

How is someone supposed to run any kind of stealth mission if they can't do simple unit removal? I've had moments with a stealthy Loki play of a mission where I was leveling a weapon and stealth-attacked a Grineer Heavy only to have him turn around and smack me with his d**k as I forgot to duck while he turned left then alerted the entire room.

Edited by AshenHaze
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I read the OP... I'd certainly like to see more stealthplay in the game. It's entirely appropriate for space ninjas.

 

I was considering a mechanic where, when crouched and not moving or acting and against a wall or object (floor works if we could lie down), your warframe camoflages. This reduces enemy sight ranges to spot you, especially if camoflaged in a dark area. The reason for having to be against a wall is that camo could work in that circumstance against one person, but with two people with different viewpoints, one of them would be able to see something strange. While crouching is supposed to reduce sight ranges already, the camo mechanic gives us a means of explaining why enemies don't see us when they are close, and I find it very ninja. Camo would automatically shut off flashlights, because logic.

 

I dislike the idea of alert cooldowns and using terminals to just eliminate alerts. Let's say you're a Grineer on a spaceship, and you hear the alarm. You check the terminal, and somebody says Tenno have been spotted. After five minutes, do you assume the Tenno left? Or do you wait for your boss to radio you and say either the Tenno is confirmed dead or has been seen leaving the ship? Make this decision with the knowledge that the Tenno may damage the reactor and cause a meltdown, leaving you dying of radiation poisoning in space with no immediately available assistance... Alert cooldowns are artificial. I've got a suggestion below about affecting alerts.

 

However, the current alert system is a bit odd... Ships are loud and filled with equipment, so a bit of gunfire could very well go unnoticed through a bulkhead door. Alerts on computers would certainly alert guards in other rooms, but a gunfight would not be a sure thing.

 

I love the idea of smashing alert terminals. I'd even extend it to allowing players to use the terminal to initiate lockdowns (lock doors to prevent enemies from passing for a while), turn lights on and off (part the camoflage mechanic), create environmental hazards, ghost alerts (draws guards to another part of the map AND can cause guards in an area to go off alert since they would believe the Tenno are not in their area)...

 

15) If you engage in a fight, the enemies on the next room will go to a cover and wait until you enter the room. These enemies become semi-alerted but don't go back to safe state and getting stuck next to wall

I disagree... These guards know you are coming, and they are waiting in cover. It's totally logical. As I mentioned earlier, they shouldn't get alerted every time if the bulkhead door is shut.

18) heavy units should not be able to activate alarm

I don't see why not.

19) INSTAKILL ON STEALTH ATTACK

I think killing any unit with a single attack is unbalanced. What if your weapon can't penetrate the target's shields with one hit? On the other hand, I see nothing wrong with a disabling attack followed by as many attacks as necessary to kill the target. Let's say you've targeted a Grineer Commander. Full suit of armor... And you have an Amphis. So you creep up behind him and sweep your Amphis to knock the unsuspecting Commander to the ground, then start walloping over and over. The mechanic is that weaker enemies would be subject to instakill, but stronger ones may take longer, increasing chance of detection. Remember that they are armored and shielded specifically so they don't die from one hit. Just a single keypress to start, no need to hammer keys and possibly swing your weapon extra times for nothing.

20) if you come to boss room undetected, boss stands alone.

The issue here is: What is the boss doing standing around by himself? Some bosses like Vor would be giving orders to subordinates and such, not ducking off to be alone for a quick wank. Some bosses like the Jackal? They are not bosses in that they are controlling operations, they are tools, and as such I don't see anything wrong with them standing around motionless until needed.

1) flashlight - being able to turn off warframe's flashlight to decrease chance of spoting

Sounds reasonable.

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20) if you come to boss room undetected, boss stands alone.

The issue here is: What is the boss doing standing around by himself? Some bosses like Vor would be giving orders to subordinates and such, not ducking off to be alone for a quick wank. Some bosses like the Jackal? They are not bosses in that they are controlling operations, they are tools, and as such I don't see anything wrong with them standing around motionless until needed.

This would actually be solved logically by allowing players to self-lock down an area and basically disable Alert Terminals.

I believe Rorschach said it best "I'm not trapped in here with you... You're trapped in here with me!" After all these are assassinations and cutting off reinforcements is an important strategy if the target can't be killed in a single direct attack.

When it comes to canceling alert state that is the Game Mechanic at work. What we don't see is any kind of ongoing E-War effort on our part. The functional excuse is sending false returns into the network on the status of the intrusion. Which is why the more alerts that get canceled the harder they get to cancel. The longer alerts run the harder they get to cancel. Such cancellation and TIME alert, are functional ways for the Reward System to track how stealthy you are. Remember the Rewards angle?

In a Cancellation system you can link things like Drop % and kinds of drops to a Number/Duration Alert. If you don't %&^ the system often AND don't allow it to run for long a Player can be rewarded to compensate for the drops they're missing by not allowing just massive waves enemies to be spawned for the Grind. This would allow both styles (kill everything loud and fast, and kill stuff slow and quiet) to be viable. At a certain point infinite spawns will out strip stealthing for rewards, but that can't really be helped. What it can do is help the "average" or "expected" returns.

Skipping the Rewards, it is something DE could put in as a Stealth 0.5 while working on something more robust with the AI. It wouldn't unbalance play simply because you would still get less reward for stealth. It would at least make the play style at least tolerant of upsetting the Omniscient AI.

Cooldown isn't really a realistic option true, not in a networked environment however diligence does slack in anything that isn't a robot. No one human can be on full on active alert all the time. If there isn't any action for a while even the most highly trained will begin to waver. Which is why guards are cycled. If a person could stay on 100% alert 100% of the time with no loss, you wouldn't really need guard rotations except for any "sleep" periods. A Cooldown on Awareness range and response times would be appropriate.

HOWEVER, I will point out that the Infested actually do have an Alert Cooldown. If you stay in the same room in most mission types you can eventually run out the reinforcement spawns and move on to the next section with the AI still respecting the "I'm not here" crouch. This is exactly what Awareness cooldown would like in other factions, as the Infested will instantly go on back on the Alert and start spawning reinforcements without an Alarm.

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The high end of this game MUST be stealth !! This is the ONLY way (and I say it because I love this game) that old players can have a renewal.
I don't know let it access awesome stuff, cosmetics, with big &#! monsters lv 100, unkillable-or with a monstruous difficulty- without stealth 

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Which I think got linked already. And all that reiterates are what needs to happen to get a stealth game into Warframe.

1) We keep are guns and are melee weapons.

2) Paths are linear with few alternatives.

3) There is no reset or "time" penalty on failure.

4) Enemy patrol pathing are not puzzle based. They are more or less random pathing.

To fix this all 4 things need to be addressed.

1) If using Guns = Make noise and Melee weapons = No noise, melee weapons will be used. They also need to be 100% effective at doing so. Stealth take downs need to kill 100% if done correctly.

2) The dungeon system needs work. It only generates a single path to an objective and that path is often very restricted, forcing confrontations. The system needs to be able to generate "vents", or some other secondary path. DE is close to this with its "hanger bay" style teleport transition tiles. This needs to be applied to normal tiles to bring players into "secondary" sections if getting the linear random engine to add multiple connected paths is too hard.

3) We need a way to cancel Alerts. This is something that should be in Warframe NOW, as a stealth 0.5. Being able to "hack" wall panels and take the AI back out of the Alert state is the Reset that MUST be added to game for any kind of stealth to work. The permanent Alert state of the AI means that if you fail at Stealth you lose the Stealth game.

4) DE, your AI is bad. I get that this a randomly generated dungeon maze but each part of the maze is hand crafted. Treat each Tile as a stealth puzzle. This is where I would argue strongly that you NEED player driven tools like TimeSplitters that would allow US to craft your puzzle pathing, both as custom game play eventual incorporation into "official" game play.

5) Making it interesting, outside of animations, dialog, etc, it is Loot Reward that is "interesting" to players. Stealth game play needs at least equal reward generation to mindless run and gun. I have posted about linking Drop rates and %s to meta values like # of times AI Alerted and/or length of time Alerted. Set the reward "bonus" equal to an assumed average completion time/kill rate if the AI was fully alert and generating extra spawns.

Edited by Brasten
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I always found it strange that a game about space ninjas only has as much stealth as some silent weapons, assassinations, and 2 stealth frames with 1 stealth sentinel.

 

I do love running and gunning. I do enjoy gunfights and big explosions (you're my girl, Nova). However, this game as it is just BEGS to have a competent stealth system in it. It's actually somewhat viable right now, though not perfect, but I think the biggest piece of the pie missing right now is incentive. The only "reward" for stealth gameplay is a generic assassination animation and a pat on the back, assuming you give yourself one. First off, bonus XP and bonus credits. You're getting less kills, so without those bonuses, it's just inefficient to do stealth. Secondly, stealth missions. Why not? It's an aspect of the game, why not put a mission on a few mid-late game planets to ensure the player experiences everything the game offers more fully? Thirdly, more variety in events. The current Cicero event is pretty neat, and looks good. You could put a sort of stealth variant into the pool of possible events. With the current Invasion system, you could even have Espionage missions where you pick a faction to fight for, go onto the enemy ship, and upload a datamass or two that will mislead that faction into sending troops elsewhere. Or you have to board a supply ship and destroy a device that's like a trailer hitch for space ships, and steal Grineer/Corpus weapons or resources. There's loads of potential for stealth mission types. And lastly, hell, why not track it? I can see how many headshots I have, my accuracy with any weapon, how many experience points all of my warframes have... If I might care about those statistics, I might also care about how many undetected missions I've run, how many assassinations I've done, and how much time I've spent cloaked/inaudible.

 

All in all, it's shocking there isn't more stealth in this game. Especially this many updates in. I understand there are bug fixes, events, and new goodies to focus on, but it's a game about space ninjas, and there's only enough stealth to tease us and give us hope we'll someday have a reason to use what little stealth we have. This should be higher on the list of priorities. We shouldn't be 59 pages deep into a WHY DON'T WE HAVE STEALTH thread.

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For the love of all things good and fun, please DE give an Official talk about the Stealth.

Don't you think it's time now?

We have had 3 new frames, 6 or more weapons,

3 events, two new tilesets, reworks of old tilesets,

Damage 2.0, four bosses, removal of infested,

Invasion gameplay, Trading, dojo expansions,

New starmap, new ui, new shaders, new voiceovers,

new 3d models including Lotus and Darvo,

New animations, stances, loadouts, imortal skins,

Camo skins, green grineer units, new Earth boss.

Phew. I'll stop right there.

You have crossed ALL THAT ^^^the off the List.

You do great stuff. Now can we please get a proper talk about this next Livestream?

Ok, that is all.

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I love this topic and can't believe I haven't gone through the thread until now. The one thing I don't agree with (and I know I'm going to catch hell for it) is the 100% kill. I agree. Stealth kills should kill instantly. I just don't think it should do it inherently. The reason is that causes a complete lack of distinction between an Exterminate mission on Mercury and an Exterminate mission on Pluto. They should absolutely not be the same. There needs to be a mechanic added to the game that allows the difficulty of those kills to scale in some way. 

Maybe the answer to his is to have drone patrols at higher levels that will spot you and make a run for it. Or maybe make it so that you have a stealth rating that must be leveled in order to straight kill higher level enemies. Or a mod that has to be leveled on a melee weapon to make stealth kills more powerful. Maybe increase how often higher level enemies look around (which makes sense. They are better trained, right? So they should be more aware). Another idea is to make stealth kills a quicktime event where you press X to initiate the kill and have to hit E at the right time on a meter, so that as it gets harder the meter moves faster. This is just off the top of my head, so feel free to come up with something better.

Incidentally the thing that brought me here was myself and a clanmate ran a "stealth" exterminate mission yesterday, she as Loki and myself as Ash, and the experience was incredibly unfulfilling. 

Edited by SignalWarden
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I love this topic and can't believe I haven't gone through the thread until now. The one thing I don't agree with (and I know I'm going to catch hell for it) is the 100% kill. I agree. Stealth kills should kill instantly. I just don't think it should do it inherently. The reason is that causes a complete lack of distinction between an Exterminate mission on Mercury and an Exterminate mission on Pluto. They should absolutely not be the same. There needs to be a mechanic added to the game that allows the difficulty of those kills to scale in some way.

Why yes, you are going to get some disagreement there. The "reward" for moving slow and taking your time to not get spotted is a guaranteed 100% kill. The difference between an Exterminate on Pluto and Mercury is the dangers of failure. If you fail stealthing on Mercury you are not insured an swift death or a massive flood of fresh spawns. On Pluto (and higher level exterminations) if the AI gets alerted it can lead to some dodgy situations. Also if you follow any of the outlined methods for resetting/cool-down on Alert, then getting the AI to calm down on Pluto is going to be harder then on Mercury. The difficulty is in the punishment for failing.

The only other mechanic I could see plugging that hole would be a Mod card on Melee weapons that sets the Insta-kill level range. You trade a Mod Slot and Mod Energy for the ability to insta-kill from stealth. Which means your weapon is less effective in normal combat. This could either be an actual level-range or an overwhelming bonus to damage. This is the "fix".

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