Stealth Feedback & Suggestions Thread

[MEsoJD]

 Mods, lets get this thread pinned again.

[SFkenny]

UPDATE: Alarms can now be reset after being triggered. Guards will still have awareness if they heard gunfire (next tile over will be alerted) but otherwise they resume unaware behavior.

[arch111]

Alarm hack =good baby step.

Now we wait for

Melee , will it benefit stealth?

Sniper reworks to actually be worth using.

Alternate routes for ninja assassins.

Patrol paths. They still seem to random.

Missions where a CELL, WANTS to do stealth and not assault.

****

How about a choice like nightmare?

* stealth. Silent kills, snipers, undetection rewarded.

Guns blazing gets xp nerf, or mission fail.

[SFkenny]

We'll have to see how stealth attacks figure into Melee 2.0...

[unknow99]

I think we should get a max amount of alarm reset, because we can revert it everytime at the moment & it feels a bit too easy to complete a mission undetected...

Let's say 2 or 3 alarm resets max : the first time they may think "fake alert,probably some idiot who activated it unintentionally", the second time "we may have been attacked,but a patrol should have dealt with the intruder.Safe situation again." , but when you do it too much they won't be so blind anymore...

 

They should also give more Life to the enemies while unalerted : Grineer discussing (in grineer or english),enemies saluting a commandant when he passes by, a lancer who fall a little asleep/ is checking his weapon,corpus sitting on their bench,two guards standing at both sides of a door (they could be distracted by the sound of a throwable object!),or even an organized patrol walking...

[Syzodia]

I think we should get a max amount of alarm reset, because we can revert it everytime at the moment & it feels a bit too easy to complete a mission undetected...

Let's say 2 or 3 alarm resets max : the first time they may think "fake alert,probably some idiot who activated it unintentionally", the second time "we may have been attacked,but a patrol should have dealt with the intruder.Safe situation again." , but when you do it too much they won't be so blind anymore...

 

Easy to finish undetected even with unlimited resets?

I still don't think so, even with silent weapons.

(Unless you're using loki, then that's probably why)

Mainly because enemies in adjacent rooms automatically enter full aggro when "hearing" gunfire (wherever from) rather than going to a state of awareness.

The only reliable time to even disable alarms *safely* is right after a lockdown; at least then, enemies in adjacent rooms are merely "alerted", not aggro'd

 

Alarm hacking limit should be in place when enemies can behave *properly* (like in the second part of your suggestion), not as it is now.

Not to mention, after shutting off the alarm, enemies don't even bother reactivating it for a while, until you go far and reach the still-unalerted enemies.

 

 

 

What i don't get is why you can only hack one MOA-pod :/

[SFkenny]

Because people were abusing it to hack a small army of them. I didn't even know you could hack MOA-pods in the first place.

[_Chaser]

alot of things have been checked as done during this edit,

 

i would like to introduce a way that may help to improve stealth experience while having the essentially same random pathing AI.

 

the whole deal is, before enemy make a turn, he turn the head first to direction he is going, while con of view is still infront of his body.

 

pretty elegant solution imo.

 

and can somebody stick it back please? it's almost complete, so the more attention it get's the faster it will be finished

Edited March 20, 2014 by n7snk

[Probta16]

alot of things have been checked as done during this edit,

 

i would like to introduce a way that may help to improve stealth experience while having the essentially same random pathing AI.

 

the whole deal is, before enemy make a turn, he turn the head first to direction he is going, while con of view is still infront of his body.

 

pretty elegant solution imo.

 

and can somebody stick it back please? it's almost complete, so the more attention it get's the faster it will be finished

What if he decide to turn back? LOL, he would look to both sides?

[_Chaser]

What if he decide to turn back? LOL, he would look to both sides?

hmm... well then he should do an animation that he is looking back...

[Angelus_de_Mortiel]

Currently, as I have been testing a lot of scenarios for using Shade's Ghost ability, I find it sadly lacking for which it is intended (namely, Stealth).

Currently: Ghost will turn the user invisible if Shade can see an enemy within a certain range, which increases with the level of Ghost (along with reducing Ghost's cast cost). The the ability does seem to have a duration, but it is extremely long (it seemed like around 90 seconds to 2 minutes, but this may have just been Shade randomly not detecting the enemy). The ability is instantly deactivated if the enemy leaves Shade's line of sight. The ability also seems to have prerequisite that the Tenno cannot have fired a weapon for a certain period of time before Ghost is able to be used. Ghost has a 5 second cooldown.

 

 

 

Problems: Getting Shade to spot an enemy without the enemy spotting the Tenno or Shade is tricky at best, and impossible in many scenarios (for example: All doors open in an upward direction, meaning enemies will ALWAYS see the Tenno before Shade can see the enemy). This is further complicated by the half-second or so cast animation once Shade does detect the enemy, in which time the enemy usually spots the Tenno and becomes hostile. Attacks of any kind instantly deactivate Ghost, but many Warframe abilities do not.

 

 

 

Suggestion: Ghost would instead be based on if an enemy can see the Tenno *or* Shade rather than if Shade can see the enemy. The range is limited by the sight range of an enemy, not by the level of Ghost. Leveling Ghost would instead would increase the duration and reduce the cooldown of Ghost (something like 15 / 30 / 45 / 60 / 75 / 90 second duration with a 15 / 12.5 / 10 / 7.5 / 5 / 2.5 second cooldown). Once an enemy can no longer see you, Ghost will enter a "power down" phase, causing Shade's invisible silhouette to pulse rapidly and returning the Tenno to a visible state after 3 seconds (which allows you a precious moment to hide). Once Ghost begins it's "powering down", it cannot be undone and Ghost enters it's cooldown phase. Ideally, a max rank Ghost will have a lower cooldown time than the "powering down", allowing Ghost to be recast again almost immediately after it powers down. The cast animation is instant, but higher tier enemies may enter a "suspicious" state.

Secondly, with the exception of Stealth Kills, any offensive action will cause Ghost to immediately deactivate (no 3 second "power down" phase). Non-offensive Warframe abilities and Stealth Kills will not deactivate Ghost. Ghost also grants the same damage bonus as Invisibility and Smoke Bomb, but only for Stealth Kills.

Edited April 2, 2014 by Angelus_de_Mortiel

[Angelus_de_Mortiel]

Any thoughts?

[(PSN)CrazyDeadPerson]

i absolutely love this heck maybe with the shade prime tht could be comin out they will do somethin

[wkfire]

For every stealth kill, Ghost gains XX seconds before revealing Tenno.  

 

Something I wish to see implemented. 

[LGear]

AFAIK Ghost has no durational limit: as long as there's an enemy in sight, you stay cloaked. I once stayed cloaked in excess of minutes using Shade in Survival without breaking cloak once.

 

The problem with Ghost as you pointed out is that its activation mechanic makes it difficult to activate without the enemy seeing you first. Hence I agree with your suggestion regarding its activation conditions: it should cloak the moment the enemy sees you or the Shade, rather than if the Shade can see the enemy.

[RealPandemonium]

Ghost is very finicky and wastes energy due to its short range.  It also does not allow you to stealth attack  with melee.  While it is a clutch save (especially at low levels,) Vacuum arguably provides more survivability by collecting health and energy.  Carrier is the best sentinel in every way currently but a more flexible Ghost that also allows stealth attacks could make Shade worth using. 

[Zkorp]

Shade saved my ;;ss a lot of time and permit me to cast safely (sometimes). For me it's the more usefull "caster" sentinel.  If it had not the flaws you've described it'll simply be godlike and no other sentinel could match is power ever.

 

I don't say it work well or it's perfect I just say that it's really usefull even in this current state.

[LGear]

Ghost is very finicky and wastes energy due to its short range. 

 

What? Ghost, as with all other precepts, don't use energy, so there's nothing to waste.

[Angelus_de_Mortiel]

For every stealth kill, Ghost gains XX seconds before revealing Tenno.  

 

Something I wish to see implemented. 

 

That would get painful, which is why I kept the concept similar to how it already is, but tweak conditions of the mechanic (i.e. 3 second "power down" period after enemy can no longer see you, allowing you to hide).

I say this because certain maps would leave you stranded with no enemies in sight (or far enough away where you can't get them fast enough), or you are swamped with enemies to kill making Ghost seem overpowered. This would lead half of the players crying that it's OP and half of them crying that it's broken.

I am trying to come up with a balanced solution that makes Shade usable for the purpose in which it was intended.

 

AFAIK Ghost has no durational limit: as long as there's an enemy in sight, you stay cloaked. I once stayed cloaked in excess of minutes using Shade in Survival without breaking cloak once.

 

The problem with Ghost as you pointed out is that its activation mechanic makes it difficult to activate without the enemy seeing you first. Hence I agree with your suggestion regarding its activation conditions: it should cloak the moment the enemy sees you or the Shade, rather than if the Shade can see the enemy.

 

I was not sure on the duration. I think me getting revealed after a long period of time was because Shade randomly "lost sight" of the enemy that was right beside me. Unfortunately, Ghost's activation mechanic is absolutely horrid and barely usable for actual stealth gameplay as it is currently.

It's also not just the enemy seeing you versus Shade seeing the enemy... The casting animation takes around a half a second, which is completely worthless as a fast reaction to an enemy spotting you.

 

Shade saved my ;;ss a lot of time and permit me to cast safely (sometimes). For me it's the more usefull "caster" sentinel.  If it had not the flaws you've described it'll simply be godlike and no other sentinel could match is power ever.

 

I don't say it work well or it's perfect I just say that it's really usefull even in this current state.

 

The problem with Ghost is that is was not designed as a temporary invulnerability while you are casting because it will cloak you in the middle of a firefight and render you non-targetable. It's meant to be used for stealth gameplay, a role it fails miserably. Personally, I would be fine with the power being balanced by making the changes I suggest, but also adding the addendum that if enemies are actively attacking you, then Ghost cannot be activated. That would make it more usable for what it is actually intended (stealth), and less usable for what it is not (combat).

 

What? Ghost, as with all other precepts, don't use energy, so there's nothing to waste.

 

All Sentinels actually have an energy pool. Leveling up Ghost reduces it's energy cost whilst increasing it's detection range. I think my max rank Ghost is supposed to use like 5 energy per cast, and Shade has a 100 energy pool, meaning Ghost can only be cast 20 times per mission unless energy orbs are collected (which they always are lol). Problem is that I have never noticed this to actually be true or not. I should try a stealth run to activate Ghost 20 times without picking up an energy and find out...

Problem is that Shade will frequently troll you with detecting an enemy for a half second and start casting Ghost, then losing sight of the enemy, which would use energy while not doing anything. It typically happens at really inconvenient times, I might add. Shade trolls me a lot, I notice, but so does Dethcube with his Vapourize.

Edited April 2, 2014 by Angelus_de_Mortiel

[Phobose]

+1 on the ghost rework. Ive become so fat and lazy with my carrier... im about to sell it because of it. Shade I feel is too weak and ghost is too limited to be used efficiently

Im hoping for a overhaul of ghost

Edited April 2, 2014 by Phobose

[LGear]

All Sentinels actually have an energy pool. Leveling up Ghost reduces it's energy cost whilst increasing it's detection range. I think my max rank Ghost is supposed to use like 5 energy per cast, and Shade has a 100 energy pool, meaning Ghost can only be cast 20 times per mission unless energy orbs are collected (which they always are lol). Problem is that I have never noticed this to actually be true or not. I should try a stealth run to activate Ghost 20 times without picking up an energy and find out...

Say what you will about the wiki, but none of this is mentioned there, and Sentinels have been around a long time to be datamined for. I'm skeptical on whether Ghost, or any other precept, has energy requirements at all.

Edit: Just did the test you wanted to do, getting Ghost to activate 20 times without picking up energy orbs:

Methodology of this experiment involved a convenient Corpus Camera (which does activate Ghost), and then running in and out of its view 20 times to cloak and decloak. I managed to do 25 without picking up a single Orb.

Did a Duration test on the same camera though and either my memory failed me or something else is going on. Relying on my PC clock, Ghost lasts a minute straight it appears, even if an enemy is nearby.

Including the Duration test, I had 28 straight activations without picking up energy.

Edited April 2, 2014 by LGear

[Angelus_de_Mortiel]

Methodology of this experiment involved a convenient Corpus Camera (which does activate Ghost), and then running in and out of its view 20 times to cloak and decloak. I managed to do 25 without picking up a single Orb.

Did a Duration test on the same camera though and either my memory failed me or something else is going on. Relying on my PC clock, Ghost lasts a minute straight it appears, even if an enemy is nearby.

Including the Duration test, I had 28 straight activations without picking up energy.

 

Thank you. So that not only confirmed that the energy pool is a stat DE included for lulz, and that Ghost actually has a duration? Regarding the duration, are you sure that Shade did not aggro onto another enemy than the camera? I have noticed it do that to me, where Ghost activates due to enemy A, but enemy B walks around a corner and Shade targets him, deactivating and then reactivating Ghost (naturally taking a half second for the casting animation... enough time for one of the enemies to run and trigger an alert... thanks, Shade).

Oh, and if Lotus didn't tell you as you were extracting from that mission (because that's when you needed to know): That area has sustained damage. Watch out for the fire.

Edited April 2, 2014 by Angelus_de_Mortiel

[LGear]

Thank you. So that not only confirmed that the energy pool is a stat DE included for lulz, and that Ghost actually has a duration? Regarding the duration, are you sure that Shade did not aggro onto another enemy than the camera? I have noticed it do that to me, where Ghost activates due to enemy A, but enemy B walks around a corner and Shade targets him, deactivating and then reactivating Ghost (naturally taking a half second for the casting animation... enough time for one of the enemies to run and trigger an alert... thanks, Shade).

 

That room was actually the starting location I dropped into, so it was the very first room. Did have to kill 4 enemies before I could start the cloaking test, (none of them dropped energy orbs). Thus, there were no other enemies for the Shade to aggro against except that camera. The ability still consistently ends after a minute or so of straight activation. I do need a more accurate way of gauging in-game time to better check the numbers on its duration.

Edited April 2, 2014 by LGear

[Angelus_de_Mortiel]

That room was actually the starting location I dropped into, so it was the very first room. Did have to kill 4 enemies before I could start the cloaking test, (none of them dropped energy orbs). Thus, there were no other enemies for the Shade to aggro against except that camera. The ability still consistently ends after a minute or so of straight activation. I do need a more accurate way of gauging in-game time to better check the numbers on its duration.

 

I see. Yeah, I just wanted to make sure there were no variables in that.

It would be a testament to how broken Shade is if DE popped in and said that Ghost has no duration... lol

[Angelus_de_Mortiel]

Bumped.