Raid Bosses Will Need A Wipe Ability

[(PSN)jwernecke]

Ranged abilities doesn't stop Valkyr who is invincible to all damage, ranged attacks doesn't stop Limbo and Rift Walk. Ranged Attacks doesn't stop Hydroid and his puddle. That's why we need a Wipe ability.

Simple things like Lech Kril, Vor, Sargus Ruk, Lephantis...ect make it so Valkyr can't just rage and kill the boss with no fear.  The whole team doesn't need to die.  This wipe thing is advocating for a broken game.

[(PSN)kiddplay13]

Since you've not played wow a day in your life you can't tell me i don't know what wiping is.

Im playing blade and soul right now and there is plenty of wiping in that game from bosses, so i know what im talking about.

 

Im playing a mage and to avoid wipes from bosses i have to use a skill that puts everyone near me in ice, which makes them invulnerable but they can't move.

 

There is another boss that gives you 3mins to kill him, after that you die and have to restart. He also grabs you from time to time and takes off seconds off the timer. You have to use some sort of skill that makes you have invulnerable frames to avoid it.

 

Is this not the wipe mechanic you have in your mind ?

No, those aren't wipes at all except the 3 minute guy. Wipes are unavoidable deaths so the one you explained above is most certainly not a wipe, more of a cheap one shot.

[(PSN)IIIDevoidIII]

Ranged abilities doesn't stop Valkyr who is invincible to all damage, ranged attacks doesn't stop Limbo and Rift Walk. Ranged Attacks doesn't stop Hydroid and his puddle. That's why we need a Wipe ability.

And why don't we need it for other bosses? They are essentially the same thing.

Good bosses are immune to certain abilities and could disable them.I would vote to make the battle more engaging than be stuck behind a time lock where I could lose a lot of progress simply because I wasn't killing them fast enough.

The most fun I had with a Warframe boss is the Jackal when it took me 20 minutes for a team and me to take it down. Our powers were virtually useless at my low level, ammo ran short often, and sprinting to avoid missile fire was tense.

The feeling I had then I'd much prefer over it being kind of easy if you do it one way, but if you do it you will likely fail because you run out of time. I just don't see the point.

[Star]

Built in wipe mechanics always have been and always will be a cheap trick and really add nothing to the game except to piss people off by dying to something that is impossible to avoid no matter how skilled and quick you are. My vote is against it.

[Kasumi-]

Warframe in my opinion needs a a revive system rework either specifically for raids, or just in general.

 

A good example of a revive system I personally like is Destiny's.

[(PSN)jwernecke]

For those who don't know: Wipes ONLY occur when you fail to kill the boss in X amount of time. If it takes you 20+ minutes to kill a boss, you deserve to get wiped as you clearly don't have the skill/gear for killing the boss. Wiping is not a common occurrence and is very different from Cheap One Shots. If you get wiped, all it shows is that you're team is unprepared for said boss. if Wiping work in literally every other game that has it, why would it be a problem for Warframe?

Unprepared has little to do with unskilled.  I've gone into plenty of missions that I didn't have the weapon or frame for yet through skill and perseverance I was able to win.  Again the wipe idea is terrible.

[(PSN)kiddplay13]

Simple things like Lech Kril, Vor, Sargus Ruk, Lephantis...ect make it so Valkyr can't just rage and kill the boss with no fear.  The whole team doesn't need to die.  This wipe thing is advocating for a broken game.

It works in various games, most of which are very successful such as World of Warcraft and DCUO. Raids are a team based mission, everyone is subject to failure not one person. Think of teams like a chain, if there's a weak leak then the whole chain falls apart.

[KiteoHatto]

No, those aren't wipes at all except the 3 minute guy. Wipes are unavoidable deaths so the one you explained above is most certainly not a wipe, more of a cheap one shot.

Im sorry to say this, but your wipe definition is skewed.

 

Bosses use 1 hit kill mechanics to wipe the party/raid regardless of their hp/class. The only way to avoid that is to use a certain type of skill/self CC.

 

What you are describing is just 1 type of timed challenge that leads to a wipe, it's not a wipe in itself. It's just a way to beat the boss.

Edited February 1, 2015 by kiteohatto

[Sev7n]

You are actually trying to add a mechanic(cheap 1 shots) that most players hate ?

 

This isn't an mmorpg where the same mechanics can be applied.

 

A wipe mechanic can be implemented into any game. The wipe attack doesnt have to be an instant kill. It can do enough damage to leave your warframe low on hp. If the damage from it is elemental then the wipe attacks damage could be countered with elemental resistance mods.

 

 

Couple examples of how wipes would work in this game:

 

Melee raid boss 

 

- an attack that causes small aoe around him that does decent damage (most of your shields) and knocks everyone inside the aoe down. This would allow the boss to then use a finisher move on one of the downed players resulting in a bleedout or if the player is built tanky - loss of most of their hp. Avoided by not being near boss during charge up of the attack.

 

 

 

Ranged raid boss

 

- Boss powers up and emits a beam of energy directly in front of him, being hit by this would result in bleedout or loss of most of hp. Avoided by moving not standing in front of boss during charge up of the attack.

 

- Boss moves to safe location and activates a trap that causes the room to create a wall of energy that moves towards the players. Being hit by it would result in a bleedout or loss of most of hp. It's avoided by destroying the panels creating the energy wall.

 

 

 

Edit: I misunderstood the term wipe. I always was under the impression that it was the big attack bosses do that hold the potential to cause a party wipe if not avoided >.<

Edited February 1, 2015 by Sev7n

[Star]

For those who don't know: Wipes ONLY occur when you fail to kill the boss in X amount of time. If it takes you 20+ minutes to kill a boss, you deserve to get wiped as you clearly don't have the skill/gear for killing the boss. Wiping is not a common occurrence and is very different from Cheap One Shots. If you get wiped, all it shows is that you're team is unprepared for said boss. if Wiping work in literally every other game that has it, why would it be a problem for Warframe?

Why would you deserve to be killed if it takes you 20+ minutes to kill? What if people want to go in intentionally wearing lower gear, people like to meta challenge themselves in this way and adding in a cheap one shot wipe mechanic would only prevent people from approaching the game in more varied ways. One shot wipe mechanics boil a fight down to a numbers game instead of a skills game, and the age of numbers games is over.

[(PSN)jwernecke]

It works in various games, most of which are very successful such as World of Warcraft and DCUO. Raids are a team based mission, everyone is subject to failure not one person. Think of teams like a chain, if there's a weak leak then the whole chain falls apart.

When your chain is too weak to lift the load alone the answer is not always to throw in the scrap bin.  You could just double it back and continue on.  That is where strong and weak cease to exist and there is just the team left.

[(PSN)VariantX7]

Common stuff I was thinking is DE might make the bosses have 90% immunity to debuffs (Ex. instead of having a 100% damage boost on Mprime, it will only have 10% damage boost as well as 7.5% slow), a dispell that would remove any lingering ability effect with a reasonable cooldown and ways to disrupt our Warframes directly.

 

A mechanic also that forces player to do something or else be wiped (as mentioned) is nice.

I'd be perfectly OK with the underlined. 

[(PSN)IIIDevoidIII]

A wipe mechanic can be implemented into any game. The wipe attack doesnt have to be an instant kill. It can do enough damage to leave your warframe low on hp. If the damage from it is elemental then the wipe attacks damage could be countered with elemental resistance mods.

 

 

Couple examples of how wipes would work in this game:

 

Melee raid boss 

 

- an attack that causes small aoe around him that does decent damage (most of your shields) and knocks everyone inside the aoe down. This would allow the boss to then use a finisher move on one of the downed players resulting in a bleedout or if the player is built tanky - loss of most of their hp. Avoided by not being near boss during charge up of the attack.

 

 

 

Ranged raid boss

 

- Boss powers up and emits a beam of energy directly in front of him, being hit by this would result in bleedout or loss of most of hp. Avoided by moving not standing in front of boss during charge up of the attack.

 

- Boss moves to safe location and activates a trap that causes the room to create a wall of energy that moves towards the players. Being hit by it would result in a bleedout or loss of most of hp. It's avoided by destroying the panels creating the energy wall.

 

 

 

Edit: I misunderstood the term wipe. I always was under the impression that it was the big attack bosses do that hold the potential to cause a party wipe if not avoided >.<

I would prefer ultimate skills like these over a wipe. They force action and tactics without needing to die by it.

[(PSN)kiddplay13]

Im sorry to say this, but your wipe definition is scewed.

 

Bosses use 1 hit kill mechanics to wipe the party/raid regardless of their hp/class. The only way to avoid that is to use a certain type of skill/self CC.

 

What you are describing is just 1 type of timed challenge that leads to a wipe, it's not a wipe in itself. It's just a way to beat the boss.

Wipe: Timed Moved the Boss does if they fail to kill him in the allotted time

Cheap One Shot: Move the Boss does in ANY amount of time that can kill an entire party

 

 

My definiton has not changed, i cannot any make it anymore simpler. If you have great experience with MMO's you'd understand the difference.

[(PSN)jwernecke]

Why would you deserve to be killed if it takes you 20+ minutes to kill? What if people want to go in intentionally wearing lower gear, people like to meta challenge themselves in this way and adding in a cheap one shot wipe mechanic would only prevent people from approaching the game in more varied ways. One shot wipe mechanics boil a fight down to a numbers game instead of a skills game, and the age of numbers games is over.

Exactly....we will be back to everyone running Rhino Prime, Boltor Prime, Orthos Prime, and Marelok......Instead of getting to use whatever I choose.

[(PSN)kiddplay13]

Why would you deserve to be killed if it takes you 20+ minutes to kill? What if people want to go in intentionally wearing lower gear, people like to meta challenge themselves in this way and adding in a cheap one shot wipe mechanic would only prevent people from approaching the game in more varied ways. One shot wipe mechanics boil a fight down to a numbers game instead of a skills game, and the age of numbers games is over.

Lotus H Christ.... I've seen people do that and they are extremely skilled and they still kill the boss within time limit.

Exactly....we will be back to everyone running Rhino Prime, Boltor Prime, Orthos Prime, and Marelok......Instead of getting to use whatever I choose.

How is that in ANY circumstance different from what we run now, you're literally scarping the bottom of the barrel with excuses now.

[(PSN)Apolo619]

For those who don't know: Wipes ONLY occur when you fail to kill the boss in X amount of time. If it takes you 20+ minutes to kill a boss, you deserve to get wiped as you clearly don't have the skill/gear for killing the boss. Wiping is not a common occurrence and is very different from Cheap One Shots. If you get wiped, all it shows is that you're team is unprepared for said boss. if Wiping work in literally every other game that has it, why would it be a problem for Warframe?

So you mean a "hard enrage" timer?

I don't see how that kind of mechanic could work on warframe but it's just my opinion. On the other hand an hability capable of killing the entire squadif it's not avoided would be an interesting addition gameplay wise.

[Senketsu_]

As someone who plays DDO where in raids there isn't any wiping unless the raid party messes up or the quest requires all players to die( currently only one raids wipes you raid party on purpose.) I don't see WF having a problem with kiting if DDO doesn't really have a problem. How I would like to see the WF raid work is that some tanky frames draw agro while others attack from a distance, while others have to do some kind of puzzle to weaken the boss.

[(PSN)kiddplay13]

Raids are the for the skilled players who seek a challenge, they ARE NOT for people just to spend all day kiting a boss because they can't beat him straight up. What some of you are saying are the true definition of a double standard. You can use cheap tactics against the boss, but he can't use his "cheap tactics"

[(PSN)jwernecke]

Lotus H Christ.... I've seen people do that and they are extremely skilled and they still kill the boss within time limit.

How is that in ANY circumstance different from what we run now, you're literally scarping the bottom of the barrel with excuses now.

Because I don't run any of those except the marelok and only in very specific places.  I play with a group of guys that all have a different style.  Use different frames, weapons, companions...ect.  Yet "somehow" we manage to run T4 stuff just fine.  

[Star]

Wipe: Timed Moved the Boss does if they fail to kill him in the allotted time

Cheap One Shot: Move the Boss does in ANY amount of time that can kill an entire party

 

 

My definiton has not changed, i cannot any make it anymore simpler. If you have great experience with MMO's you'd understand the difference.

The difference doesn't make timed wipes any less cheap. Dying simply because a clock was ticking is a really lame reason to lose progress.

[(PSN)kiddplay13]

Because I don't run any of those except the marelok and only in very specific places.  I play with a group of guys that all have a different style.  Use different frames, weapons, companions...ect.  Yet "somehow" we manage to run T4 stuff just fine.  

So if you guys run T4 with little to no problem with any frames, why are you complaining? You argued yourself on my side and didn't even know it smh

[(PSN)IIIDevoidIII]

Raids are the for the skilled players who seek a challenge, they ARE NOT for people just to spend all day kiting a boss because they can't beat him straight up. What some of you are saying are the true definition of a double standard. You can use cheap tactics against the boss, but he can't use his "cheap tactics"

He can use cheap tactics all he wants, as long as we and him can avoid each other's tactics, it is fine. Dispel is a thing. Bosses are invulnerable sometimes.

[(PSN)jwernecke]

Raids are the for the skilled players who seek a challenge, they ARE NOT for people just to spend all day kiting a boss because they can't beat him straight up. What some of you are saying are the true definition of a double standard. You can use cheap tactics against the boss, but he can't use his "cheap tactics"

I'm certainly not advocating cheap tactics.  Tactical retreats, bounding, straight up fighting...that is what I'm talking about.  You are the one advocating cheap tricks.  You just want everyone to have them.  Which IMO is a broken game.

[011100110110000101101101]

Raids are the for the skilled players who seek a challenge, they ARE NOT for people just to spend all day kiting a boss because they can't beat him straight up. What some of you are saying are the true definition of a double standard. You can use cheap tactics against the boss, but he can't use his "cheap tactics"

How about we come up with a way to prevent kiting so we don't need wiping?