Raid Bosses Will Need A Wipe Ability

[taiiat]

this thread sounds like it's suggesting that Gear Checks are a good thing.

 

(psst, they're not and they are really disgusting sticky things that games shouldn't have).

Warframe has been adamant about avoiding Gear checks whenever possible.

 

 

in other words this thread is suggesting that anyone that doesn't follow the pigeonholed playstyle that one person likes, should not be allowed to play the game.

good luck getting anyone to ever say yes to that, when the Games Industry knows from experience that that is the wrong way to go about anything.

 

(Edit: take some hints from Mass Effect 3 Multiplayer, groups of Players comprised of any Characters, any Weapons, and any strategies can work together in a Co-Operative fashion, and win.

you don't need to lock Players into something they probably won't have fun doing in order to make sure Players play well together. infact, it's going to be detrimental to such.)

 

----------

 

i see talk about Iron Skin and Hysteria having Threat Level increases.

they don't.

suggesting they do also suggests that your testing is either not very effective and skewed or you are misinterpreting what you see in front of you.

Edited February 1, 2015 by taiiat

[(PSN)Lord_Gremlin]

The Op idea is absurd. Go play some mmo. And don't try to shove time limits and one hit kills into the game. As for player sitting in one spot, boss may be programmed to fire a punchthrough railgun at a player with low mobility.

[[DE]Momaw]

I hate boss fights. And cheap stuff like this is why. If we're concerned about bosses being pecked to death from a safe distance, then remove the possibility of doing so. DON'T add a bullS#&$ "feature"  where the boss decides that you're not playing by his rules so kills everybody with an attack that has no counter.

Edited February 1, 2015 by Momaw

[Dillon_J]

So you want everyone to play Nyx and force people to use 4 instead ?

Wipe only works in games where there is a huge class playstyle and role difference. This isn't one of those games.

i assume the wipe would ignnore abilities like it does in most mmos where there are wipes

[Dillon_J]

I hate boss fights. And cheap stuff like this is why. If we're concerned about bosses being pecked to death from a safe distance, then remove the possibility of doing so. DON'T add a bullS#&$ "feature"  where the boss decides that you're not playing by his rules so kills everybody with an attack that has no counter.

okay name one time a boss has constantly threatened you end-game. if you dont feel threetened by a raid boss then say goodbye to any challange in warframe.

[Dillon_J]

Looking at the Hot Topics i see "Boss must be defeated within certain time limit" is the least popular vote. In almost every game with Raids, they have a "Wipe" feature. Wipe is when the Boss does a special move to kill the entire party to prevent kiting. Kiting is when players are doing very specific measures to prevent dying in certain situations, examples would be hiding behind a crate so that the boss cant kill you, simply avoiding all his attacks without any retaliation, or easing his health away inch by inch. Anyway back on track our powers, especially in Warframe would make kiting a very easy thing to do. With our minute long invincibilities, Invulnerable states, kiting will be a cinch. Please don't mess up raids DE and add Wipes.

 

Wipe Definition: A Wipe is a situation where the entire party or raid is killed. Sometimes referred to in other games as a "TPK" (Total Party Kill) or "TPW" (Total Party Wipe). 

 

Kiting:The act of kiting is a combat tactic of a player character keeping a mob or another player at a certain distance, usually out of melee distance but within ranged attack, and luring the pursuer toward your direction while dealing damage at the same time.

sorry kidd but aparently no one likes strategy in warframe :(

[Phaenur]

sorry kidd but aparently no one likes strategy in warframe :(

 

Strategy?  What strategy?  One of the most frequent complaints about tactical alerts is that in order to succeed groups have to conform to one of a couple of very "gamey" "strategies" - really just specific character loadouts and group makeups - with each person in the group doing a very specific and often fairly unfun task.  Personally, I think that's usually uncharitable, but it's still the biggest reason why people tend to bristle at suggestions that they bring the MMO Holy Trinity into a mission or be punished for taking an arbitrary "too long" to kill a boss.  We've got so many options for customization - even if a given frame or gun has One True Build, there are still tons weapons and frames to choose from - that being told that you need a specific party and loadout or else you're barred from entry is absolutely enraging.

 

Okay, okay, I know that neither of you is actually trying to bar frames or weapons from entry.  The metagame has a tendency to do that on its own anyway, of course.  The biggest problem is, of course, the DPS minimum needed to kill a boss before its enrage timer.  There are two factors to that: gear and knowledge of the fight.  In a WoW-style MMORPG, gear checks aren't an issue, because the entire game is gear.  Everything you get is directly comparable in terms of base stats.  Plus, you pick your class at the start of the game and your role within that class by the end of the starting zone. 

 

Warframe has none of that.  Each frame comes pretty much only when you want it to, each has different strengths and weaknesses that may or may not be valid in the context of a raid boss fight, and each is a heavy DPS cannon just because of its guns, regardless of powers.  That's one of the reasons Ember has been consistently considered trash-tier - other than Accelerant she's got nothing that her guns can't do better and more safely.  Even with field respecs, MMORPGs don't allow that kind of flexibility or diversity, which is why directly copying their mechanics isn't a good idea.

 

That does leave a different option for prolonging fights and giving both the boss and the players opportunities to attack.  Each boss fight naturally has special mechanics - vulnerability phases, cycling resistances, no-man's-land auras either point-blank or outside a certain distance, waves of spawns, and so much more.  In the top-end boss fights all throughout WoW's history, DPS has come down as much to making sure that you time the vulnerability phases with the openings the team gets to just park on the boss and kill it to death as it has to gear.  That's something Warframe could do really well - one or two players need to leave the field to open hatches or shut down shields or something (using parkour or mobility tricks, naturally), but they need to check with their team to make sure they're not wasting the opportunity while everyone's pinned down by a Fire Blast spam or a swarm of Bombards that just poured into the room.  Far from the only way it could be done, but a simple enough example of what I'm talking about.

 

Personally, I'm still not in favor of adding a hard enrage timer to that sort of system - I'd much rather it just prolong the fight, potentially unsustainably, until the players either get overwhelmed or figure the fight out.  I absolutely loathe feeling compelled to read the wiki or watch the World First recording before going into new content, so I'd rather the fight allow us to figure it out in one go if and only if we're up to the pressure it's putting on us in the first place.  Besides, frankly, a big part of Warframe's appeal is feeling like a badass space ninja, and taking a boss from invincible to dead over however long it takes while adapting to its attacks and casually headshotting its reinforcements over your shoulder all the while is way preferable to being told "nope, sorry, you fail the raid now, bye!"  And besides, we're all such glass cannons already that a battle of attrition is challenging by default - see the chaos from a Sargas Ruk fight against players who have anything less than optimum forma-potatoed gear for a good example.

 

 

Now, all of that said, there're certainly wipe conditions that I would support.  Wipeout attacks - AoEs, killsat strikes, execution melee attacks, whatever - are fine on their own as long as they're foreshadowed somehow.  The bombardment drones in Hek's Terra Frame arena are a good example.  Arson Eximus fire blasts could do with a bit more wind-up time, but they're pretty solid too.  As long as the players can do something to avoid it - run for cover, duck out of the room, interrupt the attack, even get out their melee weapon and block and pray it holds - high-threat attacks are not only tolerable but actually a really good mechanic.

 

Second, I'd accept a soft or hard time limit only if there's something about the fight or arena that makes it very clear.  Not "it's been twenty minutes/ninety seconds, I'm bored, instakill!"  Something like bombs arming around the arena, fighting in vacuum but without Archwing so your shields and health are constantly hemorrhaging, holding off an Advancing Boss of Doom while escorting a rover.  Something that makes the loss condition completely transparent and much less arbitrary.  That sort of situation, where you know you've got time pressure and thus need to hurry and work out the right execution, is pretty much the only time I'd support a hard wipe timer.

 

 

Lastly, I think we all could stand to think outside the box on boss design here.  The "exploit" situation OP described was kind of familiar from the original Hek fight, or maybe Phorid or Tyl Regor, but it legitimately can't happen against Jackal or Raptor or the Hyenas or new!Hek or or or.  Anything with a ranged attack, an indirect attack, a damaging aura, a melee attack to back up their ranged attack, minions spawning into the fight, or even just enough size and attack diversity to bypass cover can hit a player pretty much anywhere in any room.  Sure, invincibility powers can easily save lives, but that might be a legitimate approach to taking down a boss - Absorb its AoE and fire it off at its reinforcements, for example.

 

And hey, there's nothing that says a boss has to be a single above-average enemy.  It could be a massive power core you need to expose piece by piece and break as you get the chance, all while soldiers pour in behind you and turrets drop down from above.  It could be a dropship you're chasing all through the stage, with parts of the group managing the troops it leaves behind while others try to parkour their way aboard to ground it.  It could be a tank (perhaps the Juggernaut or Riot MOA?) chasing your Hijack target to the extraction point.  Heck, I'd be more than willing to call an extra-challenging map and spawn system in a Rescue or teased Spy room a "boss fight," especially if players needed to get to different points at the same time.  Those are ways Warframe could take advantage of its unique degree of mobility without needing an arbitrary failure timer - all of them could and in fact probably should have a time limit, but it would be one that's clearly tied to the environment and familiar mechanics (getting caught in Spy and Rescue, losing the escort target in Hijack) instead of a simple "you fail!" timer.

[faustias]

I think I'll just keep my Nekros verily alive than any of us, next is Trinity or Oberon, so he can use Soul Survivor.

 

 

 

Also I'm tired of punch-through-any-immunity wipe out just because we either not killing the targets/boss fast enough.

I've experienced that on Dragon Nest. So much for being the tanking class with blocking ability and protective barrier when the boss' attacks, all of it, can just damage me by having the mechanics ignore my buffs and damage blocking.

Edited February 1, 2015 by faustias

[Dillon_J]

Strategy?  What strategy?  One of the most frequent complaints about tactical alerts is that in order to succeed groups have to conform to one of a couple of very "gamey" "strategies" - really just specific character loadouts and group makeups - with each person in the group doing a very specific and often fairly unfun task.  Personally, I think that's usually uncharitable, but it's still the biggest reason why people tend to bristle at suggestions that they bring the MMO Holy Trinity into a mission or be punished for taking an arbitrary "too long" to kill a boss.  We've got so many options for customization - even if a given frame or gun has One True Build, there are still tons weapons and frames to choose from - that being told that you need a specific party and loadout or else you're barred from entry is absolutely enraging.

 

Okay, okay, I know that neither of you is actually trying to bar frames or weapons from entry.  The metagame has a tendency to do that on its own anyway, of course.  The biggest problem is, of course, the DPS minimum needed to kill a boss before its enrage timer.  There are two factors to that: gear and knowledge of the fight.  In a WoW-style MMORPG, gear checks aren't an issue, because the entire game is gear.  Everything you get is directly comparable in terms of base stats.  Plus, you pick your class at the start of the game and your role within that class by the end of the starting zone. 

 

Warframe has none of that.  Each frame comes pretty much only when you want it to, each has different strengths and weaknesses that may or may not be valid in the context of a raid boss fight, and each is a heavy DPS cannon just because of its guns, regardless of powers.  That's one of the reasons Ember has been consistently considered trash-tier - other than Accelerant she's got nothing that her guns can't do better and more safely.  Even with field respecs, MMORPGs don't allow that kind of flexibility or diversity, which is why directly copying their mechanics isn't a good idea.

 

That does leave a different option for prolonging fights and giving both the boss and the players opportunities to attack.  Each boss fight naturally has special mechanics - vulnerability phases, cycling resistances, no-man's-land auras either point-blank or outside a certain distance, waves of spawns, and so much more.  In the top-end boss fights all throughout WoW's history, DPS has come down as much to making sure that you time the vulnerability phases with the openings the team gets to just park on the boss and kill it to death as it has to gear.  That's something Warframe could do really well - one or two players need to leave the field to open hatches or shut down shields or something (using parkour or mobility tricks, naturally), but they need to check with their team to make sure they're not wasting the opportunity while everyone's pinned down by a Fire Blast spam or a swarm of Bombards that just poured into the room.  Far from the only way it could be done, but a simple enough example of what I'm talking about.

 

Personally, I'm still not in favor of adding a hard enrage timer to that sort of system - I'd much rather it just prolong the fight, potentially unsustainably, until the players either get overwhelmed or figure the fight out.  I absolutely loathe feeling compelled to read the wiki or watch the World First recording before going into new content, so I'd rather the fight allow us to figure it out in one go if and only if we're up to the pressure it's putting on us in the first place.  Besides, frankly, a big part of Warframe's appeal is feeling like a badass space ninja, and taking a boss from invincible to dead over however long it takes while adapting to its attacks and casually headshotting its reinforcements over your shoulder all the while is way preferable to being told "nope, sorry, you fail the raid now, bye!"  And besides, we're all such glass cannons already that a battle of attrition is challenging by default - see the chaos from a Sargas Ruk fight against players who have anything less than optimum forma-potatoed gear for a good example.

 

 

Now, all of that said, there're certainly wipe conditions that I would support.  Wipeout attacks - AoEs, killsat strikes, execution melee attacks, whatever - are fine on their own as long as they're foreshadowed somehow.  The bombardment drones in Hek's Terra Frame arena are a good example.  Arson Eximus fire blasts could do with a bit more wind-up time, but they're pretty solid too.  As long as the players can do something to avoid it - run for cover, duck out of the room, interrupt the attack, even get out their melee weapon and block and pray it holds - high-threat attacks are not only tolerable but actually a really good mechanic.

 

Second, I'd accept a soft or hard time limit only if there's something about the fight or arena that makes it very clear.  Not "it's been twenty minutes/ninety seconds, I'm bored, instakill!"  Something like bombs arming around the arena, fighting in vacuum but without Archwing so your shields and health are constantly hemorrhaging, holding off an Advancing Boss of Doom while escorting a rover.  Something that makes the loss condition completely transparent and much less arbitrary.  That sort of situation, where you know you've got time pressure and thus need to hurry and work out the right execution, is pretty much the only time I'd support a hard wipe timer.

 

 

Lastly, I think we all could stand to think outside the box on boss design here.  The "exploit" situation OP described was kind of familiar from the original Hek fight, or maybe Phorid or Tyl Regor, but it legitimately can't happen against Jackal or Raptor or the Hyenas or new!Hek or or or.  Anything with a ranged attack, an indirect attack, a damaging aura, a melee attack to back up their ranged attack, minions spawning into the fight, or even just enough size and attack diversity to bypass cover can hit a player pretty much anywhere in any room.  Sure, invincibility powers can easily save lives, but that might be a legitimate approach to taking down a boss - Absorb its AoE and fire it off at its reinforcements, for example.

 

And hey, there's nothing that says a boss has to be a single above-average enemy.  It could be a massive power core you need to expose piece by piece and break as you get the chance, all while soldiers pour in behind you and turrets drop down from above.  It could be a dropship you're chasing all through the stage, with parts of the group managing the troops it leaves behind while others try to parkour their way aboard to ground it.  It could be a tank (perhaps the Juggernaut or Riot MOA?) chasing your Hijack target to the extraction point.  Heck, I'd be more than willing to call an extra-challenging map and spawn system in a Rescue or teased Spy room a "boss fight," especially if players needed to get to different points at the same time.  Those are ways Warframe could take advantage of its unique degree of mobility without needing an arbitrary failure timer - all of them could and in fact probably should have a time limit, but it would be one that's clearly tied to the environment and familiar mechanics (getting caught in Spy and Rescue, losing the escort target in Hijack) instead of a simple "you fail!" timer.

that was a lot to read so i skimmed. but a wipe doesnt have to be on a timer and bam gg. a wipe could be a move that is avoidable very easily but will simply one shot you for being reckless. like lets say every minute he starts telegraphing a move and you need to go into a special area tht makes you immune to the move.

 

a lot of people actually hated the alert because they couldnt leeroy it.  which is kinda a stupid reason to not like it.  everyone figured out a strategy so i think the tatical alert was a step in the right direction

 

i personally would hope that the devs require some actual cooperation for the raid instead of i.e. Molecular prime spam, waiting for the boss to not be invincible like most bosses currently etc.

[(PSN)VariantX7]

Strategy?  What strategy?  One of the most frequent complaints about tactical alerts is that in order to succeed groups have to conform to one of a couple of very "gamey" "strategies" - really just specific character loadouts and group makeups - with each person in the group doing a very specific and often fairly unfun task.  Personally, I think that's usually uncharitable, but it's still the biggest reason why people tend to bristle at suggestions that they bring the MMO Holy Trinity into a mission or be punished for taking an arbitrary "too long" to kill a boss.  We've got so many options for customization - even if a given frame or gun has One True Build, there are still tons weapons and frames to choose from - that being told that you need a specific party and loadout or else you're barred from entry is absolutely enraging.

 

Okay, okay, I know that neither of you is actually trying to bar frames or weapons from entry.  The metagame has a tendency to do that on its own anyway, of course.  The biggest problem is, of course, the DPS minimum needed to kill a boss before its enrage timer.  There are two factors to that: gear and knowledge of the fight.  In a WoW-style MMORPG, gear checks aren't an issue, because the entire game is gear.  Everything you get is directly comparable in terms of base stats.  Plus, you pick your class at the start of the game and your role within that class by the end of the starting zone. 

 

Warframe has none of that.  Each frame comes pretty much only when you want it to, each has different strengths and weaknesses that may or may not be valid in the context of a raid boss fight, and each is a heavy DPS cannon just because of its guns, regardless of powers.  That's one of the reasons Ember has been consistently considered trash-tier - other than Accelerant she's got nothing that her guns can't do better and more safely.  Even with field respecs, MMORPGs don't allow that kind of flexibility or diversity, which is why directly copying their mechanics isn't a good idea.

 

That does leave a different option for prolonging fights and giving both the boss and the players opportunities to attack.  Each boss fight naturally has special mechanics - vulnerability phases, cycling resistances, no-man's-land auras either point-blank or outside a certain distance, waves of spawns, and so much more.  In the top-end boss fights all throughout WoW's history, DPS has come down as much to making sure that you time the vulnerability phases with the openings the team gets to just park on the boss and kill it to death as it has to gear.  That's something Warframe could do really well - one or two players need to leave the field to open hatches or shut down shields or something (using parkour or mobility tricks, naturally), but they need to check with their team to make sure they're not wasting the opportunity while everyone's pinned down by a Fire Blast spam or a swarm of Bombards that just poured into the room.  Far from the only way it could be done, but a simple enough example of what I'm talking about.

 

Personally, I'm still not in favor of adding a hard enrage timer to that sort of system - I'd much rather it just prolong the fight, potentially unsustainably, until the players either get overwhelmed or figure the fight out.  I absolutely loathe feeling compelled to read the wiki or watch the World First recording before going into new content, so I'd rather the fight allow us to figure it out in one go if and only if we're up to the pressure it's putting on us in the first place.  Besides, frankly, a big part of Warframe's appeal is feeling like a badass space ninja, and taking a boss from invincible to dead over however long it takes while adapting to its attacks and casually headshotting its reinforcements over your shoulder all the while is way preferable to being told "nope, sorry, you fail the raid now, bye!"  And besides, we're all such glass cannons already that a battle of attrition is challenging by default - see the chaos from a Sargas Ruk fight against players who have anything less than optimum forma-potatoed gear for a good example.

 

 

Now, all of that said, there're certainly wipe conditions that I would support.  Wipeout attacks - AoEs, killsat strikes, execution melee attacks, whatever - are fine on their own as long as they're foreshadowed somehow.  The bombardment drones in Hek's Terra Frame arena are a good example.  Arson Eximus fire blasts could do with a bit more wind-up time, but they're pretty solid too.  As long as the players can do something to avoid it - run for cover, duck out of the room, interrupt the attack, even get out their melee weapon and block and pray it holds - high-threat attacks are not only tolerable but actually a really good mechanic.

 

Second, I'd accept a soft or hard time limit only if there's something about the fight or arena that makes it very clear.  Not "it's been twenty minutes/ninety seconds, I'm bored, instakill!"  Something like bombs arming around the arena, fighting in vacuum but without Archwing so your shields and health are constantly hemorrhaging, holding off an Advancing Boss of Doom while escorting a rover.  Something that makes the loss condition completely transparent and much less arbitrary.  That sort of situation, where you know you've got time pressure and thus need to hurry and work out the right execution, is pretty much the only time I'd support a hard wipe timer.

 

 

Lastly, I think we all could stand to think outside the box on boss design here.  The "exploit" situation OP described was kind of familiar from the original Hek fight, or maybe Phorid or Tyl Regor, but it legitimately can't happen against Jackal or Raptor or the Hyenas or new!Hek or or or.  Anything with a ranged attack, an indirect attack, a damaging aura, a melee attack to back up their ranged attack, minions spawning into the fight, or even just enough size and attack diversity to bypass cover can hit a player pretty much anywhere in any room.  Sure, invincibility powers can easily save lives, but that might be a legitimate approach to taking down a boss - Absorb its AoE and fire it off at its reinforcements, for example.

 

And hey, there's nothing that says a boss has to be a single above-average enemy.  It could be a massive power core you need to expose piece by piece and break as you get the chance, all while soldiers pour in behind you and turrets drop down from above.  It could be a dropship you're chasing all through the stage, with parts of the group managing the troops it leaves behind while others try to parkour their way aboard to ground it.  It could be a tank (perhaps the Juggernaut or Riot MOA?) chasing your Hijack target to the extraction point.  Heck, I'd be more than willing to call an extra-challenging map and spawn system in a Rescue or teased Spy room a "boss fight," especially if players needed to get to different points at the same time.  Those are ways Warframe could take advantage of its unique degree of mobility without needing an arbitrary failure timer - all of them could and in fact probably should have a time limit, but it would be one that's clearly tied to the environment and familiar mechanics (getting caught in Spy and Rescue, losing the escort target in Hijack) instead of a simple "you fail!" timer.

Agreed. When I imagine a raid in Warframe, im not imagining some mission where everything is decided by the loadout and upgrade screens before you even get into the mission to do anything. I'm imagining an epic, long form mission  with multiple boss fights that cant just be cheesed through by bringing their biggest dps guns and power setups but with some cool, almost puzzle ish mechanics and more mechanically complex enemies. The "wipes" would only come if your screw up the mechanics of a boss fight or fail to interpret the pattern of attacks

[(PSN)IIIDevoidIII]

that was a lot to read so i skimmed. but a wipe doesnt have to be on a timer and bam gg. a wipe could be a move that is avoidable very easily but will simply one shot you for being reckless. like lets say every minute he starts telegraphing a move and you need to go into a special area tht makes you immune to the move.

And this would be fine with me. The OP suggests something along the lines of "You haven't killed him quickly enough, so you die" which is what we are disagreeing with.

[RFaul]

that was a lot to read so i skimmed. but a wipe doesnt have to be on a timer and bam gg. a wipe could be a move that is avoidable very easily but will simply one shot you for being reckless. like lets say every minute he starts telegraphing a move and you need to go into a special area tht makes you immune to the move.

 

a lot of people actually hated the alert because they couldnt leeroy it.  which is kinda a stupid reason to not like it.  everyone figured out a strategy so i think the tatical alert was a step in the right direction

 

i personally would hope that the devs require some actual cooperation for the raid instead of i.e. Molecular prime spam, waiting for the boss to not be invincible like most bosses currently etc.

 

Time based raid wipe mechanics is bad I also agree. It leads the game into min/maxing for DPS purposes only. It could lead to Frame and Weapon selection prejudice.

 

Unavoidable "Finger of Death" mechanics is just like time based raid wipe. If every minute a player necessarily dies and cannot be brought back it's basically the same.

 

Time based attack patterns with very tight player reaction times lead to choreographic fights which seems cool at first but becomes boring very fast.

 

Raid battles should feel epic but also fun. Very punitive mechanics are nice as long as players are given enough time to react. And this is hard to achieve based on the number of players and their latency and individual reaction times. Decent visual warnings allows players to understand when they need to react. Audible warnings are even more effective losing only to physical warnings achieved by vibration controllers.

[Dillon_J]

And this would be fine with me. The OP suggests something along the lines of "You haven't killed him quickly enough, so you die" which is what we are disagreeing with.

yea that wouldnt be fair based on how most of the current bosses function

[Oriviagene]

Soooo u want to make it harder...nope

[Star]

I'm glad to see so many people bringing up great arguments as to why timed wipe mechanics are a bad thing. It gives me hope.

Edited February 1, 2015 by Star

[Marthrym]

WarGUNS is not an MMO. There are NO "traditional" Tanks, DPS and Healers, not even close. Bosses aren't affected by aggro like in MMOs, we don't have tanks, we have bruisers. We don't have DPS frames, EVERY frame is a damage dealer, because only weapons are viable (because DE apparently is too stubborn to use percentages in damage based abilities' calculations, which is beyond idiotic by the way), and our only healers are Trinity and Obi, and they're not viable as healers because once again, we don't have "traditional tanks" to soak up damage with their huge health pool, armor, and damage mitigation techniques, which usually are tied to the aggro they manage to keep on the bosses by the way.

 

A "wipe" is when the whole team bites the dust in any way, not just when a boss uses an insta-rape mechanic. This is closer to "Rage" mode, which is generally tied to timers/other mechanics that depend on certain requirements to be activated/cancelled. "Wiping" is generally used in/refered to situations where the group KNOWS they won't manage to survive long enough to kill the boss and VOLUNTARILY decides to "wipe" so as to save time during raids/instances/dungeons/whatever. Or because they messed up and get their asses kicked by "regular" boss attacks and abilities, not usually Rage modes or "One shot wipe" abilities, which ALSO happen to usually have some form of counter given to the players.

 

What you ask for OP, is just a "If player targetted by boss hides to avoid damage, then boss kills everyone instantly with a cheapshot, because you say so/it's... fair?" Really?^^'

That's not how it works mate. I don't know what MMOs you've been playing, but WargUNS isn't one, and I highly doubt the addition of "raids" will magically transform boss fights into MMO-like combats. I'd rather wait to see what they look like and what mechanics the devs will have them use first.

Edited February 1, 2015 by Marthrym

[DeadlyBard676]

 A raid is a massive multi-tiered dungeon/Quest that need at-least 6 parties(parties are usually 4 man teams but can be as high as 6, for those that don't know), with each party preforming a certain task, and checkpoints in between each major battle. we don't have a true tank as tanks in most mmorpg's can draw the aggro from other players to them selves, and warframe doesn't have that type of aggro system.we only have 1 healer, a few support, alot of damage dealers, and 2 sorta tanks.

 

also most wipe abilities have a certain starting animation that can be used to have the support members of the group cast abilities that will protect the team against them(unless there is a time limit for the boss like others have mentioned) and those bosses are locked in to using that skill preventing him from using something like a dispel ability. So Nyx users can use that starting animation as a Que to initiate Absorb. 

 

Against most bosses in MMORPG's can potentially wipe a party unless the team know what to do. Wipes usually only happen if someone isn't going their job right or is slow on the draw to protect their team.

[Sev7n]

I think some people are confused on how a raid boss could work and be successful in warframe so here is a couple videos showing how they could be done.

 

 

the mission in the video has you fight your way through the map against countless enemies with traps that require careful movement and planning to get through, once you get to the end of the map you end up in the boss room as shown in the video. The boss in the video has the right mechanics needed for a boss fight. -poison clouds force mobility - standing in the wrong spot can result in insta death when the boss traverses through the holes in the wall (ultimate / wipe ability) - small enemies spawn to force players to pay close attention to everything going on

 

 

 

Here is another example of how raid bosses could work with warframe

 

 

 

 

This boss in the video is both a raid and regular boss, the raid holds up to 24 players in a session. You can notice that this boss has an ultimate / wipe ability that will kill you and possibly the team if you dont break through the ice wall and escape in time.

 

 

 

 

Both videos show mechanics that force mobility, teamwork, careful placement, required dodging, ultimate/wipe skills that kill or down a player in 1 hit, and make the player pay attention to everything that is happening during the fight.

 

All of these can be implemented in warframe and should be implemented into the upcoming raid bosses. They do not require traditional tank / healer / dps roles some people like to believe are required for raid fights in online games.

[Vadrigos]

You're asking for something like Crota's Oversoul ability in Destiny? Or Atheon's Mark of Negation?

[DeadlyBard676]

You're asking for something like Crota's Oversoul ability in Destiny? Or Atheon's Mark of Negation?

Mark of Negation is used by The Templar not Atheon.

[Vadrigos]

Mark of Negation is used by The Templar not Atheon.

 

Whatever, same basic thing. 

[taiiat]

sorry kidd but aparently no one likes strategy in warframe :(

if you think 'player 1 does this, player 2 does this, player 3 does this, player 4 does this or you lose' is strategy, i really recommend you go outside more often.

 

strategy is not following a predetermined route. strategy is like say, as much as i dislike American Football, American Football plays.

every team will have hundreds of them.

which one is the best? none of them are. which one always works? none of them do. infact, there's a lot of ways to complete each situation. no one play is the ultimate answer in any situation, there's a lot of options, a lot of flexibility.

there is strategy in picking the plans that will work best in the situation, and for the players you have on the field.

 

that is strategy. forced cookie cutter is not.

Edited February 2, 2015 by taiiat

[Dillon_J]

if you think 'player 1 does this, player 2 does this, player 3 does this, player 4 does this or you lose' is strategy, i really recommend you go outside more often.

 

strategy is not following a predetermined route. strategy is like say, as much as i dislike American Football, American Football plays.

every team will have hundreds of them.

which one is the best? none of them are. which one always works? none of them do. infact, there's a lot of ways to complete each situation. no one play is the ultimate answer in any situation, there's a lot of options, a lot of flexibility.

there is strategy in picking the plans that will work best in the situation, and for the players you have on the field.

 

that is strategy. forced cookie cutter is not.

its more like people are completely shooting down the concept instead of pitching different ways his idea could be better or other ways there could be to add strategy to the raids. most comments i read when i posted that just said no instead 0of expanding to new ways it could be implemeted or other cool mechanics for the raid

 

edit: also for fun and i wont respond because i already disscussed this above with someone name one time you have felt threatened at constant encounters by a boss in warframe at end game

Edited February 2, 2015 by Dillon_J

[taiiat]

that just said no instead 0of expanding to new ways it could be implemeted or other cool mechanics for the raid

 

name one time you have felt threatened at constant encounters by a boss in warframe at end game

- because it's just something that's bad for Video Games. requiring Players to play in certain ways is. just. bad.

there isn't any way to make it better. you don't pigeonhole Players unless you expect most Players to burn through it in a trivial manner or expect most Players to not bother because it isn't fun.

 

- i've never felt threatened by any Enemy in Warframe, 99.999% of the time.

because 99.999% of the time, they aren't winning by touche'ing me, they're winning by cheesing the Player.

 

infact, a perfect example. today the Rusty Rag 3 spawned in some random Grineer Survival i was doing,

sure, fine. nothing new, i know what i'm doing.

immediately (like, within the first second) after they spawned, a flashbang-like Ability was used. blinded myself and the other Player in the session. when the flash wore off, both of us were already dead.

*slowclap* i felt really threatened there when the Enemy completely cheated, right?

nope.

 

i didn't get challenged by the game, it just cheated.

 

 

and Boss Fights are similarly comprised of things that are either cheesing, or boring. other forms of 'lol gg you dead', or Weakpoints and Invulnerability Phases, blah blah. meaning 90% of your time standing around waiting, and the rest shooting a few bullets. repeat.

 

 

Enemies could be challenging, but usually they cheese the Player rather than trading touche's.

 

 

 

however from time to time in Warframe, the Enemies get a legitimate kill on me. and i'm not mad then. i high-five the Enemies. i dun screwed up, and they killed me because of it.

[Phaenur]

edit: also for fun and i wont respond because i already disscussed this above with someone name one time you have felt threatened at constant encounters by a boss in warframe at end game

 

Okay, sure, I'll bite.  I haven't recently.  Still haven't actually managed to get a group together for Muta-Alad since my usual team's been having computer issues lately, so I don't know about the newest fight, but the only one who used to be a threat - Lephantis - has gotten a little easier with time.  I think it's something to do with reduced rate of attack, or maybe more time spent burrowed, or perhaps even brighter lighting in the upper arena, since I distinctly remember blundering into poison clouds I could barely see and losing too much health to recover from.  And some of the feeling of him being threatening has passed too, now that we've gone from just fighting it to experimenting with more efficient loadouts and ability combinations.

 

There are still oh-crap moments within even the easy boss fights, though, particularly Jackal's stickybomb carpet.  I'll be a lot happier with that sort of move once grenades actually physically render so you can theoretically dodge, but it's a great move for forcing you to react quickly and change location, and at-level or when not using defensive mods for whatever reason it can leave you stuck out in the open for the gats and rockets to kill.  And hey, after the first time, you pretty much instinctively scramble to be anywhere else when you here that pneumatic *kchunk*.  Clear audio telegraphs for that would go miles towards improving highly lethal attacks in the general game, in fact (grenades in particular), even if clear models never get properly integrated.

 

And yeah, bringing it back to Lephantis, the original model actually was quite threatening for multiple reasons.  The fight got more and more chaotic as time went on, with heads popping up on different intervals yet overlapping enough to force you to dodge multiple things at once.  Each attack could cause significant damage but was easy to avoid if you were paying attention, while the dark lighting and (in the second phase) brown organic floor concealed the threats without making them completely invisible - making it challenging but not too frustrating.  And I believe that, at the time, poison damage only applied while you were in the cloud and not as a DoT afterwards, meaning that even if you stumbled into a cloud you could still react and get out of it, but you'd definitely want a heal afterwards.  The battle lasts long enough to challenge your ammo reserves and kill you repeatedly if you're careless around his toxic attacks, but as your reflexes and understanding of the damage windows improve you naturally build up a greater threshold for success.  In fact, I'd say most Lephantis fights go on too long for a hard wipe timer, and the design is much the better for it specifically because the one thing Warframes don't have is staying power.

 

Drawn-out encounters against challenging foes, where neither can kill the other too quickly yet damage adds up easily, seem to be the best source of enjoyably difficult gameplay Warframe's come up with so far.  That's why you see people mostly complaining about Nullifier rifles, not the bubbles on their own (okay, well, there're plenty of complaints about the bubbles too, but the general consensus seems to be that the Lanka needs to go) - a potentially drawn-out fight for you that only needs one or two hard-to-avoid hits from them is An Issue.

 

For another good example, look at the brief time after Vor was reintroduced when his level scaled with a multiple of the entire party's collective Warframe levels, potentially well over 100 (I seem to recall 108-120 for my team, I think other players reported higher numbers).  He was seriously tanky, obviously, but his damage leveled off at some point so that his attacks were all survivable.  Even with the chaos of his Teslas and Janus Key beam in the later phases, as long as you got out of the way as quickly as possible you'd survive with only modest damage, and so the fight wore on until either you burned him down at last or else too many of you slipped up and got downed somewhere you couldn't be safely revived.

 

Either way, it was a well-designed fight, it was a challenging fight, and Hek, it was just a fun fight.  And while I wouldn't call it necessarily "threatening," because it was the antique asteroid bossfight chamber against a man-sized enemy who didn't stand out from his minions (aesthetics are a big part of what "feels" threatening), it still checked off a lot of good boxes that not many other encounters in this game have.  Especially not after the Suspicious Shipments Alert paradigm shift towards extremely low time-to-kill on both sides as the key source of difficulty.