Raid Bosses Will Need A Wipe Ability

[Terumitsu]

Other than 'other online games have it!', I don't see a basis for why there should be an instant lose time based mechanic. The thing is, Warframe operates in fundamentally different ways than most other games that have such a mechanic simply due to the fact that player skill can, in fact, make up for gear discrepancy. Like the newbie who went balls hard on the most recent tactical alert with assassinations using the glaive and came out on top or the posts in this thread where folks have killed Harvey by kiting, dodging, and perseverance.

First off, why is it a bad thing that a group that survives twenty minutes against an onslaught in the first place? All that says to me is that they'll get there eventually or choose to abort if they get tired of the fight. If a group is smart or skilled enough to stay alive and functioning despite what is thrown at them, then why should they be punished for not doing X amount of damage in Y time? Heck, the only reason I can think of why a mechanic like this would exist in the first place would be to artificially force the maximum party size to be present in these raids and then force lockstep adherence to a formula. Thing is, with how Solo play and boss scaling are things that exist in the game as well as the varied combination of frames allowing for varied answers to the same problem, arbitrating this mechanic does not seem like a prudent idea without good mitigating circumstances.

[Orcot]

No.

 

Warframe is an extremely fast paced game, with very little defense as it is, having a non avoidable insta kill ability would do nothing but annoy players even further with endgame survivability.

 

The game already struggles with difficulty endgame, players spec into DPS builds cause those are the only effective builds in T4s where enemies can wipe a team in a second if there not being killed the moment they enter view.

[Gio21]

a wipe would be good for a hard mode if it comes later on.
right now i dont see it happen since it will make many players which are still newb to lose at this.
but at a hard mode with more rewards that would be awesome :)

[Synvul]

Would not recommend Wildstar for much but their raid structure to me is very interesting.

[DietEbolaCola]

Would not recommend Wildstar for much but their raid structure to me is very interesting.

 

I'm boycotting NCsoft so i won't be checking it out. What about Wildstar raids makes them interesting / fun?

[mcKentucky]

I wouldn't mind wipe if it is not tied to timer.

 

Maybe some interesting mechanic.

 

 

 

For example, when boss sees you, you died. So bring an Ash with Smokescreen. To counter all Ash/Loki only team, only make the vulnerable part of boss to be exposed only when not invisible.

 

 

Or another one, the boss capable of releasing substance that can wipe Tenno, unless the Tenno is behind cover. To counter hiding behind cover for the whole fight, the substance is able to ricochet from the wall, so players have to position themselves around the cover.

 

 

 

Any mechanics would do, but not timer, that's just silly and only leads to elitist only looking for high DPS boring gun to raid.

[(PSN)Shadow_Of_Hunhow]

I don't recall ever playing a game with a boss that had a wipe ability to kill an entire team, but I have watched raid attempts on the Crota boss in Destiny. There was something in that fight that interested me, that being the "over soul" that would wipe the raid party if they didn't do enough damage to destroy it beforehand. If warframe raid bosses had some sort of ability that could cause a wipe, but could still be stopped by the team working together and coordinating, I think that'd be a good mechanic to have. But having an unavoidable hard time limit on the boss? I'm personally against that.

This, if a player dies, an oversoul is summoned, if it's not destroyed, it wipes the team.

There's also one in the previous raid called the total of negation. If you come into physical contact with a certain enemy, or fail to destroy an Oracle, you'll be marked. If you fail to be cleansed of it before the ritual starts, you'll be killed.

Wipe abilities like that are great, and keep everyone on their toes because you have ways of stopping them. The only bs one I can think of is Crota enrage, which summons oversouls and ogres constantly.

[(PSN)LunaticGunner]

OP, you don't need a wipe after X time feature to know you weren't prepared for a boss.  Did you ever try fighting Absolute Virtue in FFXI before they finally released his weakness?  How about Pandemonium Warden?  Those are extreme cases (they had to lower the difficulty because people were playing for 18 hours straight trying to kill PM) but bosses can be made to be hard without just outright killing you after X minutes.

 

My point is developers just have to be clever with design.  Make it hard with interesting special moves that COULD kill unprepared players but don't kill us because we ran out of time.  I would be LIVID if we had a boss at 1% and time ran out.

[Zoracraft]

This does not fit warframe at all. Wiping is something that would happen in 20 minute boss encounters like WOW or ESO. It does not belong in warframe, where boss fights usually only take ~5 minutes.

In a game where mobility and kiting are almost verbatum, having wipes is gonna get raids dropped like dark sectors were.

[AandOE]

That one Mastery Test where we have to follow the glowing orb and shoot it would make for an interesting internal segment for large boss types. Not getting all of the various points means being expelled out back to the first stage of the boss fight. Not a complete wipe, as the previous damage would be still accounted for, but no further damage could be performed until reaching (and completing) the glowing orb tracking segment again.

[Pizzarugi]

I'm against wiping, its a fantastic way of screwing over players who are out of revives. Switch frames? Maybe, but what other frame can imitate Nyx (Loki's irradiated disarm nothwithstanding) or Limbo or Banshee? People who main frames are going to suffer hard from a wipe feature.

Better idea: Raid boss randomly pulls players right up to them and applies a heavy slow, the pull will ignore invulnerability and force players out of it. Alternatively, the boss randomly applies a group-wide dispell much like the Stalker.

Or much better: Soft, avoidable wipes. Raid boss does massive damage that covers the entire arena, but can be dodged or cancelled.

Edited February 3, 2015 by Pizzarugi

[Edgedemon]

There's a huge difference between tactical and straight up cheating. Hiding behind a crate so the boss can't even touch you isn't even fair.

using cover and avoiding attacks is cheating? unfair for who?

 

Many games have a Wipe feature, i never even play World of Warcraft a day in my life, i just pulled their definitions. 

None of which is a fast paced 3rd person shooter.

 

For those who don't know: Wipes ONLY occur when you fail to kill the boss in X amount of time. If it takes you 20+ minutes to kill a boss, you deserve to get wiped as you clearly don't have the skill/gear for killing the boss. Wiping is not a common occurrence and is very different from Cheap One Shots. If you get wiped, all it shows is that you're team is unprepared for said boss. if Wiping work in literally every other game that has it, why would it be a problem for Warframe?

go face high level bosses liek lephantis, Mutalist Alad V or Vay Hek with an unranked mk1-braton and then come back and talk, in this game one mistake becomes a down, so  20 minutes boss fight is a feat.

if it takes you 20 minutes of constant and intense avoiding to kill a boss who clearly overpowered you, you deserve praise!

 

Ranged abilities doesn't stop Valkyr who is invincible to all damage, ranged attacks doesn't stop Limbo and Rift Walk. Ranged Attacks doesn't stop Hydroid and his puddle. That's why we need a Wipe ability.

Simple things like Lech Kril, Vor, Sargus Ruk, Lephantis...ect make it so Valkyr can't just rage and kill the boss with no fear.  The whole team doesn't need to die.  This wipe thing is advocating for a broken game.

exactly my toughs, Valkyr cant touch lephantis and has it hard on most bosses.

 

It works in various games, most of which are very successful such as World of Warcraft and DCUO. Raids are a team based mission, everyone is subject to failure not one person. Think of teams like a chain, if there's a weak leak then the whole chain falls apart.

you keep mistaking the game type here with copy pasted point and click mmos, you can script a whole raid in WoW while here you need to watch out for every single enemy.

 

 

lastly is funny how you use the word skill when you are proposing a change that relies completely on exploit builds and maximum DPS weapons to avoid the requirement of any skill whatsoever.

 

you deserve to get wiped as you clearly don't have the skill/gear for killing the boss. 

 

in a game where you are supposed to play with which ever gear you want...

[letir]

Good boss don't need wipe ability to wipe your !.

Edited February 3, 2015 by letir

[Lynxh]

 

in a game where you are supposed to play with which ever gear you want...

 

Which already is, and has been untrue for a while imo. Whether by intend, or lack or proper balancing.

 

Regarding the topic:

 

I have no inherent problem with a timed wipe. I can create a lot of tension, which imo is what adds to the fun. Much like how I enjoy running time trials, trying to make my actions align for that perfect round. To deny what being on a timer can add to a experience seems weird. As long as it's beatable I don't see the issue. In the same way we only had a limited time to damage the fomorian motivated people.

 

Timing is everything, and having to take your damage output into consideration along with dodging it makes for a much more dynamic fight then when you have all the time in the world. A lot of games have timer in the form of attrition which essentially serves the sames purpose, to push players.

 

At the same time, it does also function as a gear check. And I think this aspect is what people dislike the most, since this means that in those situations no matter what you do(player skill) you will still lose if you don't meet the dps requirements. And how I feel about that is another lengthy discussion. But regarding Warframe, I'm not sure if that's something I want or not :/

 

A lot of games have bunch of gear checks, some more obvious/intrusive then others. It's not evil, but like everything they have their downsides.

[matrixEXO]

Looking at the Hot Topics i see "Boss must be defeated within certain time limit" is the least popular vote. In almost every game with Raids, they have a "Wipe" feature. Wipe is when the Boss does a special move to kill the entire party to prevent kiting. Kiting is when players are doing very specific measures to prevent dying in certain situations, examples would be hiding behind a crate so that the boss cant kill you, simply avoiding all his attacks without any retaliation, or easing his health away inch by inch. Anyway back on track our powers, especially in Warframe would make kiting a very easy thing to do. With our minute long invincibilities, Invulnerable states, kiting will be a cinch. Please don't mess up raids DE and add Wipes.

 

Wipe Definition: A Wipe is a situation where the entire party or raid is killed. Sometimes referred to in other games as a "TPK" (Total Party Kill) or "TPW" (Total Party Wipe). 

 

Kiting:The act of kiting is a combat tactic of a player character keeping a mob or another player at a certain distance, usually out of melee distance but within ranged attack, and luring the pursuer toward your direction while dealing damage at the same time.

Wipe generally only really works when you have a generic MMORPG situation of raid bosses. Tanks that can really tank and pull aggro, DPSers that stay out of range of attacks. In Warframe, there isn't any real defined tank or DPSer role. Rhino fits into the 'tank' category but his ability set completely doesn't fully make him a tank. In nature, Valkyr is mainly a brawler but her ult turns her into a super tank. This blurred lines makes it hard to actually agree with an party wipe skill on a boss. I don't mind them having unique mechanics like the party needs to split into smaller teams to take down his power generators and so on.

 

A good example of team wipe for battles with no clear roles apart from damage is the Loser from PSO2. The Loser has an AoE wipe skill that only triggers if the team fails to destroy all four pillars at the corner of the map. But there's a trick to it. The wipe occurs in 'stages' and a player on the outer end can use their revive pot to revive any nearby allies before going down, therefore allowing others to initiate chain revives. Also, that game allows players who died to re-enter the battle with the only penalty being that the cash payout is less (though people generally try to avoid doing that).

 

Wipes are fine in GENERAL but needs to be built around every player and weapon that has access to the mission. I generally dislike timed boss battle as a single screw-up just results in a loss. Well-designed wipes, on the other hand, doesn't need to be tied into timed boss battles. It just flows nicely.

 

 

EDIT: Just a pointer. PSO2 (Phantasy Star Online 2) have no proper tank or DPS class as every single class do damage and is designed to do damage. The only difference is whether they can absorb 1 or 2 more hits more than another class or whether they can dish our slightly more DPS or support effects more than the others.

Edited February 3, 2015 by matrixEXO

[matrixEXO]

Which already is, and has been untrue for a while imo. Whether by intend, or lack or proper balancing.

^. IRL, it's like asking people why don't they walk to wherever they want to go even though they have a car. It's generally easier and way faster to reach the desired destination than to walk.

 

People are lazier as technology progresses. Same applies to games as a weapon that is generally more powerful (DPS wise) tends to be used more than any other weapons.

Edited February 3, 2015 by matrixEXO

[Lynxh]

^. IRL, it's like asking people why don't they walk to wherever they want to go even though they have a car. It's generally easier and way faster to reach the desired destination than to walk.

 

People are lazier as technology progresses. Same applies to games as a weapon that is generally more powerful (DPS wise) tends to be used more than any other weapons.

 

Though, you can force that gap to a close in a game as opposed to irl. I'm not saying that this is necessarily a good thing but it's possible just the same ;). Giving players higher DPS weapons doesn't exclude keeping old gear "relevant". Which is what "you can use any gear" comes down to.

 

I definitely agree with your second remark though, considering one of my gaming moto's is *there is no kill like overkill* XD

[Sitchrea]

"kill the boss in 5 minutes or die" sounds like a very bad idea, not going to lie.

 

However, something like "shoot all the glowy bits really fast or everyone's going to die" doesn't sound like a bad idea at all. 

 

A wipe ability is okay so long as players can get around it. Whether it's through use of the environment or targeting special parts on the boss or whatever else, so long as it can be avoided through skillful play it's okay.

^

[Monolake]

What's this thread about? A high level bombard already can wipe a team with a single rocket.

Edited February 4, 2015 by Monolake

[JJTOBIY]

Ok i see where you are attempting to go with this and i respectfully disagree. In warframe i do not feel that their is a boss that is worthy enough to be able to wipe a party. Sure we have bosses that are harder than most or require more skill, sure some bosses can also be tricked earlier as you mentioned by moving in and out of range or hiding, however offering a party wipe solution to something that can be fixed with an AI update is unnecessary and frankly overkill. But then again just my opinion on the matter. 

[Jeetza]

A wipe ability is literally the definition of "artificial difficulty" which is something NO game wants. 

[Rakshal]

A wipe ability is literally the definition of "artificial difficulty" which is something NO game wants. 

Artificial difficulty is not bad, it is just bad if used poorly or excessively. It would be bad in this case however.

[LisRestall]

Wipe ability is to give the impression that the boss is strong and the mission you're doing is an actual raid, forcing players to coordinate in-order to beat it. I'm against a wipe due to time limit but I'm all for a mechanic that forces player to coordinate and do something or else be wiped.

[armedpoop]

I cant believe somebody actually WANTS to be killed cheaply. This is shocking to me. I mean like many others have stated in this thread, the ability for a boss to wipe a party is NOT a bad idea, as long as it can be avoided or prevented in some way. Wiping because you werent fast enough is probably the worst thing that could be added to this game, or any game for that matter. It is also one of the cheapest and easiest ways of making something "hard".

[Exact_Value]

I like the idea , i really , but it has one MAJOR FLAW.

Situation : Raid comes on , it's "Probably" timed , like everything else. You get a party of 8 strangers an off you go , to a mission so hard you will probably vommit when its over.

Problem : ME! Well , kinda , i mean people that would trigger said wipes for LULZ "educational" purposes and then see the forums ignite like a thousand dying stars with threads such as "OMG SO BROKEN\TROLL BAN PLS\SOME ! JUST RUINED IT\FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU"

TL;DR Easily abused mechanic to troll others , happens in any game that has said mechanic , i myself would abuse it to get as many people to get DE to remove it.

Edited February 4, 2015 by CR0SSB0NE