Npc Accuracy

[Bipp]

So when exactly will this be implemented? A huge hotfix has gone by and I still don't see any changes. Still I am sniped by Grineer lancers and their Grakatas at upwards of 50 metres.

 

Edit: Will provide gifs for proof (if only Vegas didn't appear to need more than 3.7 gigs of memory and if Firefox wasn't such a CPU & memory hog.)

Double edit: Here is the gif

 

Please get this sorted out as soon as possible.

Edited February 5, 2015 by Keybopsef

[Tr1ples1xer]

Yep accuracy seems to be even worse than before, I feel scammed and I am dissapointed :( Aimbot enemies are the worst thing ever DE.

[RealPandemonium]

So when exactly will this be implemented? A huge hotfix has gone by and I still don't see any changes. Still I am sniped by Grineer lancers and their Grakatas at upwards of 50 metres.

 

Edit: Will provide gifs for proof (if only Vegas didn't appear to need more than 3.7 gigs of memory and if Firefox wasn't such a CPU & memory hog.)

Double edit: Here is the gif

 

Please get this sorted out as soon as possible.

1) They'll probably be refining the system over the next weeks.  Also, you're standing still.  If you were to equip a Hind and shoot that guy as he shot you, i'm pretty sure you would hit him no problem.

[Thaumatos]

I don't have a gif, but I just flew over a lvl 30 Corrupted Heavy Gunner at full wall-leap speed while sliding in mid air and she took me from 300 shields and 740 hp to 0 / 284...not even at full spin-up. (on xcal)

 

This doesn't feel very fixed to me.

 

On the bright side, at least they seem to actually hit me while playing as a client now.  Something that never happened.

 

Though they still ignore the hell out of me while I'm in their face unless I shoot them.

Edited February 6, 2015 by Thaumatos

[Thaumatos]

1) They'll probably be refining the system over the next weeks.  Also, you're standing still.  If you were to equip a Hind and shoot that guy as he shot you, i'm pretty sure you would hit him no problem.

Read the OP.  Accuracy on mobs is meant to drop off based on distance.  Even on the snipers.  You can't compare your own abilities as a player to that of mobs, that's just silly.  It's like saying, "How come that Lancer doesn't use any of his 1-4 abilities?" ... They're mobs.  They're different.  It's a game designed to be fun for the player, not the AI.

 

The problem is that Hosts didn't seem to be using the old graphs, and now even the new graphs.  Prior to the update, AI just got 100% accuracy on you at any distance or movement speed.  Moving around does seem to help a little more than it did before, but they're still dead-on accurate regardless of distance.

 

Something's wrong here.

[dashashou]

Something's wrong here.

 

yepo still getting bam head shotted 

[Rydian]

I've had snipers who used to aimbot completely miss up to 5 shots in a row before one finally hits my foot or something...

if I'm moving, or ducked behind cover, or doing any of the things you'd want to do IRL in order to make yourself a harder target to hit.

 

The changes, with a few mission runs, seem a lot better to me.

[Thaumatos]

I've had snipers who used to aimbot completely miss up to 5 shots in a row before one finally hits my foot or something...

if I'm moving, or ducked behind cover, or doing any of the things you'd want to do IRL in order to make yourself a harder target to hit.

 

The changes, with a few mission runs, seem a lot better to me.

I've noticed that lower level Grineer aim worse than higher level Grineer.

 

And the higher you go, the more aimbot-ish they get.

 

Just on level 3 Earth mission and a heavy gunner at 40m will miss me more often than not on full spin-up.  That doesn't happen in the T4 Void missions.

[Rydian]

I ran multiple high-level syndicate missions today with a friend (at least 3-4 of them, levels 25-30+), I didn't notice anything worse than usual.

 

(I mean Corpus Shotgun dudes are still absolute murder at point blank, but that's sort of a given for that weapon type.)

[Djego27]

I did run some tests solo excavation on Earth(L30 grenier) for the Limbo part with my Ember and Frost. While accuracy is lesser for the first shot and you have less damage spikes where you drop dead by sniper 100m away that is in cover and nearly impossible to see, dps intake seams a lot more consistant after the spoolup and hardly affected by any of your movement. Combined with the new spawning mechanic that often spawns single targets from different directions you get constantly hit in the back when trying to use cover compared to have more targets from one direction what allows you to utilize cover like it was before.

 

Moveing around doesn't feel like reduceing the enemy accuracy much at full spoolup and the system does feel like being designed and playtested on indoor maps against low level targets that can be one shot killed while running around the corners on the fly instead of being unable to kill all targets quick and the use of cover like on outdoor maps and higher levels.

 

From what I did read, if it is really based on the level how accurate they are then this should be removed for good, since the combination of high accuracy and the scaling damage does just creates that unfair situations where you get one hit all the time or can't do anything against the incomming damage. It doesn't feel more difficult, it just feels like cheating.

 

As for snipers being less effective at close range, they hit me just fine at a range of 5 meters after the spoolup, that doesn't look like it stops during CC.

 

Overall the the accuracy is still way to high after spoolup and should be significantly reduced on full spoolup, in combination with reducing the damage scaling of NPCs on higher levels to actually avoid that the game becomes just unfair and unplayable without constantly spamming abilities that CC or migrate that damage at levels that are barely over 30.

 

Update:

 

After running Void as Client and Corpus missions as Host, I think the changes are ok there, with the exeption of a very strange damage spike that instantly did drop my trinity with link on, quick thinking and a max vitality mod 15 waves into T4. Same happend to or nova in this T4 def 2 times as well, vitality mod and instant down without face tanking bombards or standing in sight of a nullifier, we both had no real clue how it happend. I could not really reproduce it so far and other then this 3 times damage intake was more consistant then before, with people that take damage give you enught time to react and no sudden spikes like nullifiers one hitting people out of the blue.

 

That makes me think that there really should be a different npc accuracy calculation, depending if the weapon is hitscan or not.

Edited February 6, 2015 by Djego27

[Variatas]

So, the question about how this will affect Turbulence was not answered.  Given that it seemed like Turbulence was not kept in line with the previous changes (Grineer were a noticeably bigger threat from further away than before the changes), this is kind of something you guys need to check on.  Bare minimum it should be maintaining its current behavior, but really it should be roughly as effective as it used to be before all the aimbot enemies started around Archwing.

[RealPandemonium]

So, the question about how this will affect Turbulence was not answered.  Given that it seemed like Turbulence was not kept in line with the previous changes (Grineer were a noticeably bigger threat from further away than before the changes), this is kind of something you guys need to check on.  Bare minimum it should be maintaining its current behavior, but really it should be roughly as effective as it used to be before all the aimbot enemies started around Archwing.

Just tested in Ceres.  I used a max range build.  Seems like most things couldn't touch me at any range within Turbulence except Ballistas.  Ballistas started to hit me a soon as I was more than 15m away from them.  This may apply to other enemies as well.  Will also test to see if power strength matters.  

 

Edit: Seems like power strength doesn't do anything.  Turbulence only seems to be effective within 15m for some hitscan weapons and a little more for some of the hitscan enemies?

Edited February 7, 2015 by RealPandemonium

[Variatas]

Just tested in Ceres.  I used a max range build.  Seems like most things couldn't touch me at any range within Turbulence except Ballistas.  Ballistas started to hit me a soon as I was more than 15m away from them.  This may apply to other enemies as well.  Will also test to see if power strength matters.  

 

Edit: Seems like power strength doesn't do anything.  Turbulence only seems to be effective within 15m for some hitscan weapons and a little more for some of the hitscan enemies?

Turbulence isn't supposed to scale with Power Strength, and I really hope they don't think that that would be a fix, because it'd put her into one of those "Needs all the stats to work" places where every build is mediocre at best.

The problem I'm referring to is how a lot of hitscan enemies, especially Lancer-types could hit you from maybe 10m (I'm bad at visualizing distances, sorry) when they used to be debilitated at more like 15m.  It'd be really frustrating if Ballistas could snipe you out of Turbulence because they're not interacting the way the ability was designed to.

[RealPandemonium]

Turbulence isn't supposed to scale with Power Strength, and I really hope they don't think that that would be a fix, because it'd put her into one of those "Needs all the stats to work" places where every build is mediocre at best.

Seems like in its current form Turbulence is only a sure thing for hitscan weapons at close ranges.  Hug the enemies, get godmode.  Keep your distance, get wrecked. Topsy-turvy.  :/

 

Edited February 7, 2015 by RealPandemonium

[tpollett]

I can report several instances of being one shotted by level 20ish grineer on the vay hek assassination mission today. The damage does seem to be consistent between host and client; but that really just means both host and client die rather than the host going down and the client being able to survive long enough to revive them.

Ran a T4 surviv with my Loki and it seems that enemies get their aiming spool up regardless of your frames visibility. While running I dropped out of invis and before I could complete the cast animation, with natural talent, I was killed by enemies 25-30m away. I've also had corrupted butchers start swinging before I'm out of invisibility so that they hit me right as I turned visible again. The fact that enemies know exactly where you are at all times while invisible is ridiculous. Most enemies won't shoot you while your invisible; but they still know exactly where you are. And the fusion moas will still start to attack you once they hit about level 55-60. Been killed while running by a fusion moa who entered a room and started firing despite my being invisible before the moa entered the room.

I still have hope for this accuracy change but it needs some tweaking to get it dialed in. For starters; remove aiming spool up until the enemy is in visible sight of the players; not simply in the room and aware of the players presence (which is automatic as I mentioned earlier with them knowing exactly where you are at all times).

I understand that enemies knowing where you are was designed so that they would always be heading towards you rather than standing around doing nothing. But maybe just set it so they know which tile you're on, not your precise location.

I am glad that the host/client discrepancies are getting cleared up; as my computer doesn't like hosting it makes it difficult to transition between solo play where I'm getting slaughtered if I expose a toe to the enemy and group settings where I could basically dance in front of enemies and not worry about a thing. Nice to have more consistency between the two situations but I really do think there is a problem caused by the aiming spool up to be started by the enemy knowing your location rather than having a visual sight of their target. Makes the spool up actually cause an increase in accuracy as they can get full spool on their way to the room the player is in. Though I have no clue if that is actually what's going on; it would explain my experiences as well as some of the other experiences related in this thread

[weirdee]

I'd like to add that the "acrobatic aiming penalty" is garbage atm. Go grab a Zephyr, fit it for max speed and turbulence speed boost, then try to run and flip past any group of grineer at least level 20.

 

I'm assuming this is the case because level scales accuracy up with no limit, while the debuff is a static number (which probably doesn't take into account actual speed, but just movement states). This test should also prove that turbulence has zero effect on grineer at this level also.

 

In any case, "same aiming system since this game we made from 2008" and the overall state of stat/polarity balancing from mods doesn't fill me with enough confidence to give the benefit of the doubt to these various, not actually defined in hard numbers mechanics that are described in passing which are all interacting with each other on an unknown level in a vaguely defined system.

Edited February 7, 2015 by weirdee

[tpollett]

I ran a few additional tests and the client/host discrepancy is still present. Ran three consecutive missions on Neptune fighting for the Grineer against the corpus. I was in Mirage all three runs. The first two runs I was a client and the third run I was host. The difference is staggering. Using hall of mirrors, as the host the corpus are shooting at the mirages and hitting me with incidental damage as it should be. As a client the corpus are shooting behind them and straight into the ground. I didn't grab screen shots but I'll run it again and try to get some good ones; but running up to a group of eight or ten corpus and having them all start shooting behind them and at the ground is not the correct behavior. Now that's with hall of mirrors active b

When hall of mirrors was not active and eclipse was either giving a damage boost or not active, they were hitting me about 4/5 bullets as host and 2-3/5 as client. The difference in damage taken is immense. Granted, the first run was a full party and the second run was simply myself and a Vauban while the third run (and only run I hosted) I was with a smoke screen ash so naturally I took more damage as he was invisible most of the time which I accept as correct behavior. That might explain the difference in number of shots that hit me without hall of mirrors active; the enemies shooting the ground behind them is not.

Again; still needs testing and it seems like this may be a bug related to hall of mirrors (I was using the augment as well), but I will have to run more tests to be certain. Either way; there is still significant discrepancy between client and host in regards to enemy aiming.

Edit: this aiming change might need to be balanced with a damage reduction to enemy shots as low level missions are much more difficult since the accuracy change. I was under the impression that this was going to reduce the enemies damage as host but it is really seeming like it has increased damage accross the board with much greater damage from lower level mobs and an increase in damage from higher level enemies that is noticeable but not great

Edited February 7, 2015 by tpollett

[Llyssa]

Okay, being the angry old elitist I am, I took a bunch of highly skilled players(nearly 10 years of combined experience, no one under mastery rank 17) to a mere t3 survival.

 

For the first 35 minutes, we cake walked it, of course. Exactly what you'd expect.

 

Then, suddenly, after 35, we were getting insta-killed when rounding blind corners, by enemies who were able to automatically target and hit us, often before we could even see them. This is just a measely little t3 here. We should have been able to do an hour plus on t4, or "until we get bored".

 

I can understand there being differences, but having to ress the entire team multiple times in under a minute, and these are all "we have opinions on which kind of flying trick shot is best, and discuss them in text while killing lvl 40's without dying" level of skill players, in what's a relatively simplistic mission space, and we're getting dominated, A door(one of those huge ones) opens and two of us get crack-shotted by guys on the other side before the animation for the door opening has finished.

 

Something is seriously wrong here--there is no way an elite team should be getting annihilated like that, but the enemy accuracy is absurd and instantaneous after about lvl 52. There is no skill involved when the enemy can insta-kill you through 2k health+shields the split second line-of-sight is established(particularly when they were NOT facing the right direction before they turned to fire!)

 

There needs to be something scaled back/atlered here. If an uber team is getting flattened by a piddly t3s, I can't imagine the horrors happening to the rest of the player base.

[RealPandemonium]

Okay, being the angry old elitist I am, I took a bunch of highly skilled players(nearly 10 years of combined experience, no one under mastery rank 17) to a mere t3 survival.

 

For the first 35 minutes, we cake walked it, of course. Exactly what you'd expect.

 

Then, suddenly, after 35, we were getting insta-killed when rounding blind corners, by enemies who were able to automatically target and hit us, often before we could even see them. This is just a measely little t3 here. We should have been able to do an hour plus on t4, or "until we get bored".

 

I can understand there being differences, but having to ress the entire team multiple times in under a minute, and these are all "we have opinions on which kind of flying trick shot is best, and discuss them in text while killing lvl 40's without dying" level of skill players, in what's a relatively simplistic mission space, and we're getting dominated, A door(one of those huge ones) opens and two of us get crack-shotted by guys on the other side before the animation for the door opening has finished.

 

Something is seriously wrong here--there is no way an elite team should be getting annihilated like that, but the enemy accuracy is absurd and instantaneous after about lvl 52. There is no skill involved when the enemy can insta-kill you through 2k health+shields the split second line-of-sight is established(particularly when they were NOT facing the right direction before they turned to fire!)

 

There needs to be something scaled back/atlered here. If an uber team is getting flattened by a piddly t3s, I can't imagine the horrors happening to the rest of the player base.

Clearly we should all play Loki+Vauban in every mission so that we don't actually have the *play* the game at all!  That's the direction balance is headed in, right? (Buff everything!)

[Otaiken]

Again, I would like to know how exactly agility and jumping around affects accuracy.

 

Cause from what I've seen there's no difference between simply sprinting and sliding/jumping or wallruning. Wallruning especially makes you a big glowing target.

 

Accuracy based on distance also has one fatal flaw. That is if you want to melee you have no way of reducing the damage done to you as you need to get close and at that point the parkour makes no difference. So stats rule skill is worthless, just hack away scamp. That is what my major gripe with this accuracy calculation is. It screws over melee something fierce. 

 

Also, I got 1 shotted by sniper in the void 3 times in a row. On pretty short distance (not point blank). The moment I broke line of sight -> dead. In the end I had to take Loki with Invis to counter this... so nothing changes abilities are still only way to survive against higher enemy levels. Not that there's something wrong with using abilities... but give me a chance to avoid fire with skillful parkour please.

 

More emphasis on staying on the move and less on the distance pls.

Edited February 7, 2015 by LocoWithGun

[Otaiken]

It's not just about accuracy at this point. The entire alertness system needs some serious rework along with stealth.

 

Enemies need unalerted and alerted cone of vision. Right now they feel your presence at all times. Hence why scenarios when you get instantly capped the moment you break Line of sight happen. Enemeis shoud need a little while before they start shooting or reach max accuracy (you said that got implemented this patch... didn't notice it at all). It also needs to be reset every time you leave LoS and should depend on the speed at which you leave cover.

 

Right now enemies are not only aimbotting, they're wallhacking as well. Which is a problem... you can't sneak up on enemies. They will turn around and hit you right in the head. 360 noscope YOLO MLG SWAG YO enemies need to stop man...

 

Or is the scaling out of whack? There are already more enemies (and more dangerous) on higher levels. Why do they need aimbot as well?

Edited February 7, 2015 by LocoWithGun

[shut]

It's not just about accuracy at this point. The entire alertness system needs some serious rework along with stealth.

 

Enemies need unalerted and alerted cone of vision. Right now they feel your presence at all times. 

 

Agreed entirely.

I think something like Skyrim's system (where alerted enemies can only see you if you're in their cone of vision, but will turn towards any noise that you make if you're nearby) would be good. So enemies would rely on cones of vision to see players, but will turn towards the sound of their footsteps unless they're jogging (reduced awareness) or crouching (silent). Something like that.

 

Granted, Skyrim isn't exactly known for its amazing combat or overly realistic detection systems, but I still think that something of the sort could do well in WF.

[tpollett]

After running maybe 20 excavations of Earth (still trying to rank up weapons I don't like for mastery) I have pretty much determined moving is irrelevant. In fact; moving is less effective than it was prior to this update. Before the update moving meant I could avoid damage. Now I'm being shot continuously by level 15-20 enemies while rolling, jumping, coptering, air attacking, sliding, wall running and any other type of movement available to me. The only thing I have not really tested is zephyr's turbelence with or without the augment and her tail wind to see if those have any effect. Also, I got a few good screen shots of the hall of mirrors bug I mentioned further up the thread. It's kind of ridiculous to look at the screen shots and see multiple enemies trying to shoot the ground behind themselves while I'm standing 5m in front of them (so it's not that they were shooting the hall of mirrors images; all five of me were in front of the enemy).

Totally guessing on this next part, but it holds together from a logical standpoint though I don't know enough about programming to determine if it makes logical sense from that standpoint. Just trying to throw out ideas to see if it might narrow down the problem.

I definitely like the idea a poster made regarding the skyrim cone of vision; but at the very least I am convinced the problem is related to enemies knowing where you are at all times not being considered when programming the ramping up of aiming ability on enemies. Especially because they most likely neglected to put a cap on aiming ability by level of enemy (or better yet, level of zone). They probably hard capped accuracy at 100% regardless ofwthat the player does which is a problem because it means that as time goes on each individual enemy simply gets too powerful by reaching that hard cap

[Maiemi]

Its very good and make Mission difficult :-)

And i say now

Snipers enemys are very Bad now :-)

they make with one Shoot

Shild+Health Instant down :-)

Come from corner and - down :-D but is funny :-)

Edited February 8, 2015 by Maiemi

[Harazard]

Well the new accuracy changes made the grineer lose they accuracy penaly at longer ranges they can easily shoot me in 60m radius and moving doesn't help at all

 

If the point of changing the enemy accuracy was to stop rushers,well this is not the right decision to do it.

Edited February 8, 2015 by Harazard