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I have a few ideas to further improve accuracy, and hiding lag. 

 

I felt it was too much to post as a reply, and would have better visibility as a separate post. 

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/398848-npc-accuracy-and-simulation-consistency-next-steps/

 

It has stuff on separating AI targeting and per-enemy health/status, and distributing it to the client machines in a smart manner, still subject to the Host. 

 

And a few tricks to hide lag and reconcile different simulation states in a graceful manner. 

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After playing numerous times when I know for sure I'm the client, the enemies simply look like they're hitting you but they still miss.  Even at point blank while running in a circle around a corpus crewman.  If I'm the client, I'm unscathed.

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Here's a level 20-22 Ballista missing me when I'm moving.

 

wLy0zam.gif

 

And here's them having trouble aiming at me when I'm not in their best-range... range.

 

xsGQZGo.gif

 

YA3gawS.gif

 

And here's some stuff I did with really low-level Ballista for fun.

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/398391-ballista-jumprope/

 

 


If the point of changing the enemy accuracy was to stop rushers,well this is not the right decision to do it.

It was to fix issues with host/client differences and the difficulty spike that came with Archwing changing the aiming system.

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Here's a level 20-22 Ballista missing me when I'm moving.

And here's them having trouble aiming at me when I'm not in their best-range... range.

And here's some stuff I did with really low-level Ballista for fun.

It was to fix issues with host/client differences and the difficulty spike that came with Archwing changing the aiming system.

Were those tests done as a client or host?

They look like client-side accuracy to me.

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Host. I'm solo in both of those missions, check the sidebar.

Other players don't have to show up in the side panel. You can turn that off.

Anyway, if you want, try hosting an invite-only game and not a "solo" game and see if that changes anything.

I would but I'm at work.

Also, try t4 missions alone. They seem to be the worst offenders for me.

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Anyway, if you want, try hosting an invite-only game and not a "solo" game and see if that changes anything.

Tried, same deal.

 

Invites available..

bSOViJN.gif

 

Miss...

e0pjqka.gif

 

Another miss...

grxM3v3.gif

 

More missing...

vsaad6k.gif

 

She might as well throw the Vulkar at me at this point...

foLiima.gif

 

If I'm moving fast and outside the best effective range for their weapon they have trouble aiming at me.

They hit me a few times during the recording, of course...

I'm just pointing out that their accuracy can be reduced systematically now, which is the intention of the change.

 

dKNfRNi.gif

 

If I'm within an enemy's effective firing range for their weapon type, their accuracy is much better than the earlier gifs.

 

94VEcvx.gif

 

Anyways my point is that a lot of people seem to have the misunderstanding that this update was intended to just lower aiming all across the board, but it's actually intended to make things more realistic, to give ducking behind obstacles and moving to dodge shots some actual effect... as well as making it so you can't sneak up behind a Ballista and then they suddenly notice you and 360 noscope headshot you in two ticks.

 

(It also added bullet trails for lots of shots that previously had no indication, which is fantastic.)

 

 

Also, try t4 missions alone. They seem to be the worst offenders for me.

Will try to remember this once I get an appropriate key.

 

 

 

 

He asked because the sidebar team display can be toggled.

Oh right, forgot about that.

 

Also, join the webm master race, yo.

Lack of universal support in embedding and junk is keeping me from using that as a standard so far.  These gifs are grainy 'cause have GifCam use a static "nearest" palette to encode quickly and save on filesize, since these are visually larger than I usually need to post (and 2x dimension is 4x area) since I need to catch the trails, hit effects, and clear numbers on health/shield.

 

 

 

EDIT: Bolding and clarification.

Edited by Rydian
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Anyways my point is that a lot of people seem to have the misunderstanding that this update was intended to just lower aiming all across the board, but it's actually intended to make things more realistic, to give ducking behind obstacles and moving to dodge shots some actual effect... as well as making it so you can't sneak up behind a Ballista and then they suddenly notice you and 360 noscope headshot you in two ticks.

 

(It also added bullet trails for lots of shots that previously had no indication, which is fantastic.)

First of all, the intention was to lower aiming accuracy across the board.  To make it more malleable, and to lower it at close range.  Check "Part B" of DanielB's OP.  He clearly states that the enemies all had 100% accuracy within a specific range and that wasn't good.  I think the bigger problem here is that we've got two different issues that are being conflated.

 

Accuracy

 

The calculations for accuracy were even for all units regardless of type and intention.  This has been changed.  They're no longer 100% accurate inside 15m and they (dev team) have a lot of play with each unit for the sake of difficulty and different gameplay.  The ballista are the most noticeable because they have an extremely slow firing weapon with an extremely limited optimum range.  The thing is, with Lancers, I have to be 45m away from them before they only land 1-2 rounds out of their 5 round burst.  Add a few more Lancers and you're still taking a formidable amount of fire.  Within mid-range, forget about it.  All 5 shots hit unless you're blowing by them so fast they don't have time to pull the trigger.

 

We could all argue our own opinions of whether or not the game should play this way.  Personally I think I like things being this tough.  There needs to be a change in the defenses of each frame based on their abilities though.  Frame defenses come in the form of pure defensive capabilities, crowd control, maneuverability, and stealth.  Balance work on damage is one thing, but these methods of defense against incoming fire should work uniquely with each frame and be designed to cooperate with the frame's playstyle.  Things like Radial Blind don't have to go through walls, but they should also not lock a mobility-based frame out of moving.

 

Hosts vs Clients

 

A host was not getting the same gameplay situations that its clients were.  This made clients have a much easier time at playing because the simple act of movement made enemies 100% inaccurate.  This issue has not totally been resolved.  The accuracy has definitely changed from a 100% miss rate, but the host is still not on equal footing.  Making a gif of this wouldn't do it justice, but when I host, lancers, elite lancers, and shock troopers shoot at a much faster rate than when I'm a client.  Also, Corpus seem to continue their improper calculations for projectiles.

 

This may or may not be an unsolvable lag issue; we don't know since we don't have the tools or depth of knowledge to study the situation more closely.  It is most definitely there.  Outside of youtube, is there any site I can post a few vids to and link in chat?  Can I send vids directly to DE in a proper format to illustrate my point?  I've got some stuff captured on the freeware version of fraps that shows what I mean.  Most of it is 120fps, and the worst scene never drops below 56fps so there's no question as to whether or not it's my machine.

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First of all, the intention was to lower aiming accuracy across the board.  To make it more malleable, and to lower it at close range.  Check "Part B" of DanielB's OP.  He clearly states that the enemies all had 100% accuracy within a specific range and that wasn't good.  I think the bigger problem here is that we've got two different issues that are being conflated.

The issue with my post is that I was talking about people talking about something other than that they were expecting.

 

Lowered accuracy from the accidental increase for archwing versus overall lowering everywhere.

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It's not just about accuracy at this point. The entire alertness system needs some serious rework along with stealth.

 

Enemies need unalerted and alerted cone of vision. Right now they feel your presence at all times. Hence why scenarios when you get instantly capped the moment you break Line of sight happen. Enemeis shoud need a little while before they start shooting or reach max accuracy (you said that got implemented this patch... didn't notice it at all). It also needs to be reset every time you leave LoS and should depend on the speed at which you leave cover.

Edited by -SLX-J3tAc3
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I'd love to see animated gifs of successfully circling a lvl 100 ballista without getting hit.

Take me to a single level 100 Ballista with nothing else in the area for accurate testing and we'll see if I can't do it.

 

That said, the game is not scaled for level 100.  A second rotation C (or potentially one Rotation D) is the furthest the devs seem to want players to go (as seen with the removal of invincibility and the adding of timers and removal of energy gain to skills that give invincibility).

 

 

EDIT: Looks like I missed the below post from the bottom of the last page.

 

Now do the same stuff on Draco. Where everything 1 shots you - no matter how far or close are you, fast or rolling

You know, I've put forth some amount of effort into testing and preparing these gifs and posting them here, much more than either of you two put into your posts I quoted.  Have you (either of the quoted players) actually tried doing what I've doing against segregated enemies of that level and all that jazz?

 

What are you going to do if I go through the effort of doing this and it ends up the same, just like it did the last two times somebody was all "Well do it on X" and I did it?  Are you just going to ignore it like some others have in this thread, wasting my effort?

 

'Cause that's not what this thread was made for.  This thread was made for testing and confirming actual in-game changes (and of course informing the players of the changes in detail).

 

It's not a place for players to just "Nuh uh" eachother.

 

If you have ACTUAL concerns about the accuracy changes that the devs have implemented and would like me to help provide some evidence (in the form of gifs) of things that aren't working the way they're supposed to, then I'm willing to work with you to help the devs see what the issues are so they can iron them out.

 

My in-game name, of course, is also Rydian.  Feel free to add me and we can set up some testing.

I have Skype, Mumble, and Raidcall set up for proper communication.

Edited by Rydian
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You know, I've put forth some amount of effort into testing and preparing these gifs and posting them here, much more than either of you two put into your posts I quoted.  Have you (either of the quoted players) actually tried doing what I've doing against segregated enemies of that level and all that jazz?

 

What are you going to do if I go through the effort of doing this and it ends up the same, just like it did the last two times somebody was all "Well do it on X" and I did it?  Are you just going to ignore it like some others have in this thread, wasting my effort?

 

'Cause that's not what this thread was made for.  This thread was made for testing and confirming actual in-game changes (and of course informing the players of the changes in detail).

 

It's not a place for players to just "Nuh uh" eachother.

 

If you have ACTUAL concerns about the accuracy changes that the devs have implemented and would like me to help provide some evidence (in the form of gifs) of things that aren't working the way they're supposed to, then I'm willing to work with you to help the devs see what the issues are so they can iron them out.

 

My in-game name, of course, is also Rydian.  Feel free to add me and we can set up some testing.

I have Skype, Mumble, and Raidcall set up for proper communication.

No need to get mad just because someone pointed at your mistake. You did tests on low level enemies. And from my experience (and not only mine) high level sniper can easy 1 shot on any rage and any speed. Nobody asking you to make those "so hard to make gifs". If you don't trust us just open Draco mission on Ceres and try it out. 

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Take me to a single level 100 Ballista with nothing else in the area for accurate testing and we'll see if I can't do it.

 

That said, the game is not scaled for level 100.  A second rotation C (or potentially one Rotation D) is the furthest the devs seem to want players to go (as seen with the removal of invincibility and the adding of timers and removal of energy gain to skills that give invincibility).

 

 

EDIT: Looks like I missed the below post from the bottom of the last page.

 

You know, I've put forth some amount of effort into testing and preparing these gifs and posting them here, much more than either of you two put into your posts I quoted.  Have you (either of the quoted players) actually tried doing what I've doing against segregated enemies of that level and all that jazz?

 

What are you going to do if I go through the effort of doing this and it ends up the same, just like it did the last two times somebody was all "Well do it on X" and I did it?  Are you just going to ignore it like some others have in this thread, wasting my effort?

 

'Cause that's not what this thread was made for.  This thread was made for testing and confirming actual in-game changes (and of course informing the players of the changes in detail).

 

It's not a place for players to just "Nuh uh" eachother.

 

If you have ACTUAL concerns about the accuracy changes that the devs have implemented and would like me to help provide some evidence (in the form of gifs) of things that aren't working the way they're supposed to, then I'm willing to work with you to help the devs see what the issues are so they can iron them out.

 

My in-game name, of course, is also Rydian.  Feel free to add me and we can set up some testing.

I have Skype, Mumble, and Raidcall set up for proper communication.

You ran in circles around a newbie level enemy and declared "THE ACCURACY IS WORKING PROPERLY".

 

You can ad hominem attack all you want, the accuracy is heavily broken with enemies level 40 and above getting increasingly absurd.

 

If your "ACCURACY IS WORKING PROPERLY" assertion was sound, YOU could do this QUITE easily by using the accuracy to keep an enemy from killing you, while killing everyone around them, and then running around them while they miss.

 

However, as your assertion is malarkey, you can't do it, haven't done it, won't be able to do it, and knowing this, instead decided to try insulting people pointing out that you can't.

 

The accuracy scales badly and gets blown way out of proportion with mid to high level enemies. The fact you have to resort to personal attacks instead of just showing it off underlines the issue.

 

I put a lot more effort into learning that fact than you have in to trying to dismiss it. The high level enemies are broken, the mid-level enemies are overwhelming for a lot of players, and if my computer was able to handle the capture techniques needed to make such a gif it would be a cake walk to prove the point.

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~

 

~

 

So... that's a no from both of you?

 

Neither of you are willing to actually hook up with me in-game and test and record this stuff to find if there's any problems with enemy accuracy scaling across different levels... and if so, have visual evidence and details to show the devs?

 

If you just want to sit here and talk crap, that's not what this thread is for.

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So... that's a no from both of you?

 

Neither of you are willing to actually hook up with me in-game and test and record this stuff to find if there's any problems with enemy accuracy scaling across different levels... and if so, have visual evidence and details to show the devs?

 

If you just want to sit here and talk crap, that's not what this thread is for.

Wait. If you want to hook up just tell me. I mean...if you ready for serious relationship..

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Wait. If you want to hook up just tell me. I mean...if you ready for serious relationship..

Insert Saryn joke here.

 

Also here, have 8 gifs of a level 34 Ballista on Ceres missing me.

 

6EkYKer.gif

 

HdpeRJv.gif

 

n19NTyD.gif

 

bi1uTW0.gif

 

tZqy6Ux.gif

 

SHFZwoM.gif

 

ajRQDph.gif

 

BTW, all 8 of those shots were in a row at the Ballista's max firing speed.

 

 

 

 

 

@Lyssa: If you want the above kind of thing done for level 100 enemies too, then add me in-game and on some voice chat system and help me set up a scenario where I can accurately test and record a level 100 enemy's individual accuracy in regards to distance and movement.

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I find it silly that enemy accuracy increases as level increases.  This is the same kind of multiplicative stat growth (damage * accuracy) that makes Grineer armor scaling (health * armor) stupid at higher levels.  Enemies should have more or less the same accuracy across all levels with only their damage and their health/shields changing.  More dangerous enemy types spawning at higher levels is good enough to substantially increase the challenge factor.  

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Wouldn't it be much easier if someone from DE told us if accuracy even scales in some way with level? I have a feeling that it doesn't do that at all.

Doing all this testing, I'm getting that feeling as well.

 

I'm doing the same crap for all the various levels.  Find an enemy and then either time and dodge the shots, or just move quickly when I'm not in their optimum range so that they have really bad accuracy against me (which is what the devs talked about in the OP).

 

If a few people want to work with me on an Interception and in the "clear the enemies" section after a high round number (with a high enemy level) let me mess around with a single Ballista so I can act like a hyperactive ferret infront of an even higher-level enemy to just shut people up for good, I'd appreciate that.

 

('Cause I'd need the cooperation of the other players in the squad, in the form of leaving it alive.)

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