Excalibur vs. Ash

[dutch3517087]

I feel as if Excalibur is overall a much stronger Warframe than Ash; their abilities roughly correspond to eachother. However, Excalibur's abilities possess both greater function and effectiveness within each function. Furthermore, Ash's niche as a stealth Warframe is interesting but feels like more of a novelty than an effective approach. All of this is based on my play experiences and playstyle, so please chime in with your own thoughts on the matter!

Let's talk Excalibur first; take Slash Dash ("SD") for example. As a first-level ability, it has the capability to insta-nuke nearly anything in quite a large AoE. Doorways crammed with Grineer spawn are perfect - Troopers and Lancers alike drop instantly, regardless of how many are there. If they're in the AoE, they die - I have repeatedly racked up what seems like 10 instakills in certain areas. I could be wrong, but I think only higher-end enemies like Toxic Ancients and Bombards will survive SD. Furthermore, it also has great use as an escape or another means of greater mobility.

While Radial Blind is quite good also, especially in conjunction with SD, Power Jump is very weak. As a third-level ability, it has very little use and it at best serves as a quick time-saver to boost oneself from a crate to somewhere otherwise needing stair access. Comparatively speaking, SD is far stronger than PJ both in terms of function and effect - its a better attack than PJ is a means of mobility and I daresay it is a better (though different) means of mobility than PJ itself.

Now, compare Excalibur to Ash. Shuriken is very hard to aim, has approximately the same effective distance as SD considering the difficulty aiming, and has none of the mobility bonuses provided by SD. Although the projectile nature of the attack can be a benefit in terms of being in cover, this function is fulfilled by rifles/pistols. Its damage is very limited, and although its hard to argue with how fun it is to pin enemies to walls, it ultimately pales in comparison to Slash Dash in terms of both function and effectiveness within each function. Smoke Screen and Radial Blind have roughly the same effect, and I would rate them about even. Teleport is far superior to Power Jump, although its range is comparable to Slash Dash. With that being said, outside of the ability to move up/down planes - again, limited by the range - Teleport feels like a weak ability. A lone enemy teleported to could just as easily be sniped by a rifle, and a Teleport into a mob without a Smoke Screen to drop immediately can result in a pretty bad time.

The final unknown is Bladestorm vs. Radial Javelin - they sound like they will have a similar effect, although I'd have to defer to Bladestorm on the cool factor alone. :) We can't judge their effectiveness, but it seems like they will fulfill a similar function.

My thoughts; firstly, I feel like Slash Dash could be the third-level ability for Excalibur, or have its effectiveness reduced in some way. Given the short/medium-range melee function is filled by the sprint/crouch/melee combo, it may be better off with the same effectiveness, just at a higher level/energy cost. Secondly, based on all of Excalibur's abilities as a whole, compared in terms of function and effectiveness, he seems far superior to Ash in my eyes. Every time I play Ash, there is at least one time every level where I am left thinking "ugh, I really wish I was playing Excalibur instead." While Ash is unique in the sense that his abilities are stealth-based, in reality the function of his abilities seem to be better served by Excalibur's. With all of that being said, this is being viewed only in beta environments and missions, so perhaps stealth functions will have greater value in a different context. As it stands right now, stealth seems like more of a novelty than a practical or preferable approach. Ash might be more fun if Teleport was his initial ability, and Shuriken buffed for more damage/ease of aim with a corresponding increase in energy cost. However, given Smoke Screen's function and the great mobility potential with Teleport, a devastating close-range assassination ability may synergize better with Ash's other abilities.

My question to you is two-fold:

Firstly, what are your thoughts on Ash and Excalibur? Am I wrong in thinking Excalibur fills Ash's role more efficiently based on the premise that his abilities have greater function and effectiveness?

Secondly, are there any other ability balance issues that you have noticed between one particular Warframe's abilities (i.e. Slash Dash vs. Power Jump) or between two different Warframes?

Edited October 30, 2012 by dutch

[Reiken]

Edit: I just realized the huge wall of text I posted here. Sorry. :D

Not sure if you guys have thought of this but.. At least in the case of Excaliburs super jump, that feels like it could be made a passive ability rather than an active one. I can never really bring myself to justify using this ability especially when it costs like.. 75 energy?.

But I guess we could get into the issue of giving all Warframes passive abilities. Not that it sounds like a bad idea to me.

Shuriken is tricky to aim yes. Primairily because if you zoom in to aim at far away targets, tossing the shuriken makes you zoom out and your crossair is somewhere else entirely. Then targets that are too close to you will be missed, unless you freally know how to off set your aim, regardless of where your crossairs are. Still, when used properly it makes for a hilarious show of cutting through and sticking enemies in a blob to a surface... Until the previous patch. I don't know what the patch we got today does, just yet. I just got on. Also Shuriken seems to basically fly on forever until it hits a solid object or enemy it can't kill which is a nice plus but yeah. It's no competition for other offensive powers like SD and Volts.. Lightning attack whos name escapes me at the moment. His primary.

Smoke screen I've had mixed results with. The time you are stealthed doesn't really seem long enough to cost 50 energy and even then, enemies for some strange reason continue to attack and stagger you while stealthed. Also while most enemies are stagged by throwing down the smoke bomb, the riot shield Grineer and the especially annoying suicide infected don't seem to be bothered by it. They promptly proceed to stagger you for the duration of your stealth... Which seems like a pointless power anyway since stealth isn't really something that seems like it would work in this game at the moment. Smoke screen is nice when it works, but when it works it doesn't really work long enough to be useful for repositioning. I have to admit that it is a rare situation when I actually use this ability. Buuuut it does look awesome to throw down the smoke bomb.

Teleport... Over priced in my opinion. 75 points to close a gap with an enemy you could already do so fairly effectively with sprints, slides, dashes and jumps. If not just shooting them in the face. There has never been a situation where I could really justify spending 75 energy on a teleport since I can only teleport to enemies, and even then the enemies react so fast to the teleport that before I even come out of it the smart ones have already run away. I can't use teleport to position myself somewhere else quickly or move into cover. At that point I would be better off spamming shurikens or using smoke screen. Maybe if teleport was an attack along with a teleport I would use it? Teleport to enemy and hit them with an especially devastating attack the second you come out of it. Then I would use it offensively but probably against priority targets only. If I could use it to position myself freely... Maybe if it cost 25-50 points. But not 75.

I really wish we could test the ultimates right now buuut that aint happening. I think Javelin would win out in effectiveness because it sounds like you would toss Javelins in every direction. Bladestorm sounds like it would win just for awesome points alone but I don't see very many situations where enemies cluster up to the point where bladestorm could be effective, unless its going to have massive range. Maybe when you select this ability it should show an AoE around Ash to see just how much range the ability has so you can trigger it when it's right and proper to do so?

As much as I love the idea behind a Stealth Based warframe. There's no legitimate reason to play Ash at the moment besides enjoying his look. He reeeally needs work. Stealth is pointless at the moment. His abilities in general feel too costly for their effectiveness I only really play Ash now because I like how he looks. Though my Volt and Excalibur are infinitely more useful and I just got Rhino to play with.

I wouldn't say that Excalibur fills Ash's role. Excalibur is really a general purpose Warframe. Jack of all trades master of none. He doesn't falter on any one thing. Ash on the other hand is meant to be a specialized Warframe in the field of Stealth. The game just doesn't support Stealth play at the moment.

In general I also feel that the effectiveness/usefulness of powers would benefit from having some means to regenerate energy besides those blue orbs. Whether it be beating your enemies in melee or just a plain passive energy regen. I would use my powers much more freely, though maybe not to the point to convince me to use Teleport often.

Maybe if not all of the powers went up by multiples of 25 based on which slot they occupy but if the cost was linked to their over all power. For example, Volts shield seems perfectly useless at first and not worth 75 points. But then you realize you can shoot through it and add lightning damage to your guns without mods. In some cases you can even use this to block off access to an area, leaving your enemies clustered around the front of the wall as you gun them down and blocking their gun fire. That one's not really bad once you realize this. I would even drop it down to 25 or 50 because his lightning ability feels more in the 50-75 range. More or less one shots and stuns its primary target while everyone around gets shocked for less damage and stunned. It's a great ability for dealing with blobs. Speed on the other hand is a great ability to close gaps or run away. Still not sure if it affects attack speed and reload speed, but if it did I would sure as hell put this in the 75 category. If it's only speed though, definately 25 point.

If you apply this to Ash. Smoke screen. I would say all of his abilities should be 25 points. Shuriken is entertaining but not very useful. Smoke screen doesn't last nearly long enough or effective at staggering enemies around you, as well as being very buggy at the moment with some enemies still seeing your invisible rear end and attacking you. But barring the bugs I would also sit this one at 25 in its current state. Teleport might be useable at 25 points to close gaps if you're feeling lazy. If this was made into a powerful attack like I had suggested (kinda like building up to blade storm) then 50-75 would be fine for it, along with a range buff maybe?

With Excalibur.. I would really make super jump a no cost ability unless that increased jump height gave you an AoE/Damage buff to your downward slash then I'd see it at 25. Radial Blur 25 points. I don't find myself or anyone using it much as it is. Then Slash dash I would sit at 50-75 because it is a truly devastating attack. Probably the single most useful ability I've seen ih the game so far, not counting Trinities ability to heal the party.

I would probably be able to rant more about powers if I had played with more than three warframes. Rhino is unranked at the moment so I can't talk about him. I'll get back to you on that!

Anyway these are just my opinions from playing around with those frames. I'm sure someone is ready and willing to rip me a new one and tell me how wrong I am. I'm not saying I'm right. Just the feeling I'm getting from things as they stand.

Edited October 30, 2012 by Reiken

[GhostXIII]

The Ash Warframe is incomplete but it has great posibilitys. If or when the devs put in stealth kills the teleport will be highly effective. The Shuriken needs to be stonger. The inpale thing is a fun thing to do but pointles. The SD is a little OP but you won't see me complaning. (devs leave this alone.) Since it is seeming to take forever to get enough credits to get my Ash back i'm useing Excalber. I'm not saying that i hate it but it lackes the finess the Ash has. Smoke bomb is ok but i never did use it except once. All in all Ash is better in some ways but need inprovement. Excalber is pretty well balanced but the superjump is too weak.

[Ryitus]

Sometimes Excaliburs Slash dash isn't strong enough to slice through harder enimies.

[Exceed]

I hereby revive this thread!

I am having some issues with the Excalibur vs Ash, too.

I don't really feel like stealth is anywhere near necessary. Or encouraged. Or possible.

I think if you exchange teleport with some sort of "permanent" invisibility that slowly drains your energy and gives you bonus melee damage on how long you stayed invisible, it would be a far more successful stealth play. One could easily go around enemy groups and take out key targets.

Shuriken could use a little buff in range and aiming, too. Or a rework in somethink like a stun-dart or something like that.

I'll like into the matter deeper.

[JigokuKamikaze]

Reiken said: "Maybe if not all of the powers went up by multiples of 25 based on which slot they occupy but if the cost was linked to their over all power".

I say: "This".

Ability cost based on the number of slot it sits in sounds a little off. Take that Power Jump, which is an eyesore on forums already. It`s too costy for JUST A JUMP. High jump, but there is no real situation ingame that requires you to use it or at least encourages to do it. It`s easiy a no-cost ot 25 energy ability at most. Compared to that OP Slash Dash, they could really be reverted in costs.

Same thing with Ash. Teleport won`t be useful for it`s cost unless it lands a powerful attack (most likely AoE, possible single-targeted). It can also be merged with Blade Storm as the starting move: say, Ash teleports to an enemy, then in a large AoE starts rampaging etc.

What I wanted to say is in a nutshell as follows: abilities really need to be evaluated judjing from their effectiveness, not some virtual "order" in a skillset.

[ApokalypsBZH]

Yup, I'll say it again, but most of the issues with powers that seem stronger than other powers coud be easily fixed with each power having a unique cost that does not depend on its slots. I never used the excalibur jump before, but now that it costs only 10, I use it a lot and it's uber fun to play with.A lot of skills that seem lackluster would be extremely fun and useful with a correct energy price. 10 to 20 energy teleport for Ash per example could give you the possibility to move around the battlefield super fast, with that "ninja" feel of the frame.

[Ronyn]

Reiken said: "Maybe if not all of the powers went up by multiples of 25 based on which slot they occupy but if the cost was linked to their over all power".

I say: "This".

Ability cost based on the number of slot it sits in sounds a little off. Take that Power Jump, which is an eyesore on forums already. It`s too costy for JUST A JUMP. High jump, but there is no real situation ingame that requires you to use it or at least encourages to do it. It`s easiy a no-cost ot 25 energy ability at most. Compared to that OP Slash Dash, they could really be reverted in costs.

Same thing with Ash. Teleport won`t be useful for it`s cost unless it lands a powerful attack (most likely AoE, possible single-targeted). It can also be merged with Blade Storm as the starting move: say, Ash teleports to an enemy, then in a large AoE starts rampaging etc.

What I wanted to say is in a nutshell as follows: abilities really need to be evaluated judjing from their effectiveness, not some virtual "order" in a skillset.

Yup, I'll say it again, but most of the issues with powers that seem stronger than other powers coud be easily fixed with each power having a unique cost that does not depend on its slots. I never used the excalibur jump before, but now that it costs only 10, I use it a lot and it's uber fun to play with.A lot of skills that seem lackluster would be extremely fun and useful with a correct energy price. 10 to 20 energy teleport for Ash per example could give you the possibility to move around the battlefield super fast, with that "ninja" feel of the frame.

Whether I agree with the specific suggestions you guys made in those posts or not.

I 100 percent agree with the core idea that a powers cost should be based on what it does not some chart.

Creating apropriate power costs is a great equalizer for the use of abilities which are inherently and purposfully very different from each other.

[Exceed]

I have played Excalibur and Ash a while now and I have some suggestions.

First I have to say, that I totally agreee with the opinions in this thread, stating that the costs are not justified or the skills are just plain "useless".

Thus, I came up with a few ideas and trying to implement them in my play, saying "Skill X would be very useful in this situation." Here are my suggestions based on the number of sayings of the former.

Excalibur:

Skill 1: Can stay like that. It is very strong but nerfing it should'nt be necessary.

Skill 2: Could use a rework in the sense of game mechanics. It isn't effective enough. Make it hit really everything and increase radius. Oh-S#&$-Button for when you have overextended.

Skill 3: Replace the Super Jump with Blur. Blur has the effect of making Excalibur evasive as a flippin space ninja. Say: He has a high chance of dodging incoming attacks, both bullets and melee. No explosions. This is nice for getting into melee-range or surviving tough situations. I mean, Excalibur is meant to be a beginner-warframe, right?

Ash:

Skill 1: Damage is okay, but the speed should be slightly increased. Nothing is more frustrating that missing a long-range Shuriken because that mofo decided to randomly leave for coffee.

Skill 2: As stated above it doesn't work on every enemy, needs to be changed. Also: Increase the effectiveness and duration of the stealth and make the smoke linger, hindering sight of enemies. Either enemies don't shoot through the smoke, try to circle around it or fire at random.

Skill 3: Add some AoE (as stated by Jogiku) or bonus damage or something else. 75 energy is way too much for a simple and potentially dangerous teleport.

The changes are with the thought of not changing energy costs. If we start with that, EVERY skill in the game has to be reworked.

What do you guys think?

Edited December 31, 2012 by Exceed

[Subhazard]

You guys do know that the super jump costs only 10 energy right?

I love it. Mine's fully upgraded (hell Excal is level 30) and I use it to jump between catwalks, bypass entire elevators, and save a S#&$load of time.

Excal is the speedrunner's dream. If you're just trying to cut your way to the boss, SD and SJ are AMAZING.

SD seems a little OP, I can kill an entire level of infection if I'm smart enough with one SD, but it's also a blast to use.

There are some fixes I had in mind for SD.

Bumping into an enemy should shorten the distance of the SD significantly, so players have to focus on SD'ing next to enemies rather than directly into them.

OR

SD should cost less, do less damage, travel less distance, and have a quicker windup. Make it useful as a dodge/blind ability and allow players to SD in a strafe as well. (Current direction traveled = SD direction)

The second suggestion would still make SD fun to us, keeping up the kinesthetic appeal and usefulness without crippling its effectiveness.

The first suggestion would still allow the SD to also be used as a great mobility enchancer, covering large distances in a short amount of time, while also making it a highly risky move in groups of enemies, but potentially, INCREDIBLY powerful (just like it is now)

Edited December 31, 2012 by Subhazard

[ApokalypsBZH]

It would be cool either adding damage and knockback to Ash's teleport and make it feel a bit like ME's

ability, or make the energy cost lower so that we can spam it more.