Loki Is Just Too Strong

[dragonkingdx]

I also love when players that have never used a frame like to make comments on how that frame should be nerfed. May be those players that actually use the frame know  A LOT more about it and its weaknesses than those that never use it and are demanding the nerf hammer to turn it into mastery fodder. 

 

That argument is kinda, oh who am I kidding it is invalid. People love to use this in defense of a frame or weapon. However there are two kinds of important feedback when it comes to balance. How it effects the player in its use and how it effects the team. If you have played with it you understand how it effects the player to a better extent than someone who has not played it. HOWEVER how it effects a team also is a valid form of feedback. Because as the one using the weapon/warframe the person often tends to forget how their skills/weapon usage feels to someone who does not own it or play it. (some just plain get so addicted that they will blindly defend it because they dont want to feel normal like everyone else)

 

Playing a frame/weapon gives first hand experience, being on a team with someone with said frame/weapon gives second hand experience. Both carry valid arguments and both can be misleading and wrong. Just as much as a inexperienced frame player can be wrong so can an experienced one.

 

But hey lets not forget that mastery fodder is useless. So much so that you wouldn't even touch it. If you consider any nerf to make something mastery fodder, then you never were a true fan/player of that frame. And this is coming from someone who still uses AKLEX in t3/4 missions. It sucks compared to others and is pretty much MR fodder compared to all of the other better side weapons. but screw that because it was a gun I liked and set out to make it useful despite its handicap. (cuz duh its a friggin challenge to kill things and see how far you can get with it)

[AlphaHorseman]

He's a good frame, just leave him alone. Good team frame, good solo frame, nice all rounded, although he is squishy, but that's the tradeoff. Let the guy be, jeez, if anything we should be happy we have frames like that on the field, if all our frames were that good, we wouldn't be complaining about something being good because everything would be good.

[fatpig84]

Again Loki is balanced by the fact that he is the most equipment dependent and can die from a sneeze.

 

Personally I play a 50m disarm build, so my invisibility is mostly crap and so energy inefficient that I am better off ignoring it altogether.

I almost never ever use it unless ressing or hitting the air. So I am equally vulnerable, just like the rest.

 

http://goo.gl/n0qDSF

 

Again I stated before, the easiest way to fix loki is if IRD is active, you cannot re-cast it like Chaos. So you are forced to kill duration and that greatly affects invisibility. Which an RD build doesn't have a lot in the first place.

 

Or give it a 5 sec cast timer like Radial Blind.

Or you give IRD a max proc chance of only 50%.

That's it.

 

Loki only became OP when IRD started creeping into Nyx territory.

Fix that portion and he will be back to his level.

Edited July 24, 2015 by fatpig84

[RealPandemonium]

if all our frames were that good, we wouldn't be complaining about something being good because everything would be good.

There would be no point in playing at that point.  I guess they could start selling platinum features like "no enemies spawn" and "auto mission complete."  

[RealPandemonium]

Personally I play a 50m disarm build, so my invisibility is mostly crap and so energy inefficient that I am better off ignoring it altogether.

I almost never ever use it unless ressing or hitting the air. So I am equally vulnerable, just like the rest.

16 second Invis is inefficient?  What?  You can energy siphon most of its cost over the duration with one energy siphon, and the whole cost if there are two or more present (never mind blue pizzas.)

 

http://goo.gl/VbDQwU

 

This build will trivialize the map while keeping you safe.  If you use Arcane helmets then you can use the Essence helmet to add 2.4 more seconds to Invis (which will allow one ES to restore 90% of the cost.)

[AlphaHorseman]

There would be no point in playing at that point.  I guess they could start selling platinum features like "no enemies spawn" and "auto mission complete."  

Realize that none of his abilities actually kill enemies, so you're still going to have to fight the enemy units. As others have stated, the damage of enemy units is still there with their Melee weapons, so they can still hit you pretty hard.

 

Also, I referred to his scale ability. Loki's powers are effective at all levels of content, if all our Frames' powers were scale able and effective throughout all levels of content, then that wouldn't be a bad thing.

[Sasquatchias]

I don't think Loki is overpowered per say, but I do think his Radial Disarm is indeed too good, not even counting how you can use it in combination with the rest of his kit.

 

That ability alone can invalidate the threat of a roomful of enemies permanently, and with an efficieny mod or energy mod can be spammed far too often, allowing a Loki to enter almost every "required" room in a mission and just delete any threat the enemies inside could have posed.

 

I think the range on it needs to either be reduced, or have a time limit on how long the enemy's guns are jammed, with further casts on them reducing the disarm time further so that Loki (or someone on his squad) actually have to fight said enemies rather than cast once and ignore them completely.

[RealPandemonium]

You're only looking at end-tier players going down into lower-tier content. That isn't the case when you reach Raids or other high level content, of which those end-tier players are balanced for. This is the case for any game that offers replay ability.

That's the thing, though.  When you have absolute CC like this then there's no difference between Mercury and T4, except that in T4 you might die if you stop spamming for a while.  There's no complexity to the game when it all boils down to creating a shooting gallery.

 

RD was clearly not balanced as a 25 energy power that can reach 50m, and neither are the other mass-disables.  

Edited July 24, 2015 by RealPandemonium

[TheBrsrkr]

If RD having infinite duration is the problem, give it duration, take away strength, and give it the "Power in use" treatment Stomp has. Those who want to spam can spam and those who want it to last long can do that too.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

Again Loki is balanced by the fact that he is the most equipment dependent and can die from a sneeze.

Personally I play a 50m disarm build, so my invisibility is mostly crap and so energy inefficient that I am better off ignoring it altogether.

I almost never ever use it unless ressing or hitting the air. So I am equally vulnerable, just like the rest.

http://goo.gl/n0qDSF

Again I stated before, the easiest way to fix loki is if IRD is active, you cannot re-cast it like Chaos. So you are forced to kill duration and that greatly affects invisibility. Which an RD build doesn't have a lot in the first place.

Or give it a 5 sec cast timer like Radial Blind.

Or you give IRD a max proc chance of only 50%.

That's it.

Loki only became OP when IRD started creeping into Nyx territory.

Fix that portion and he will be back to his level.

Most equipment dependent. Bs right there. The point is that your disarm build works with max range. ONLY max range. Evrything else is optional. The ideal would be somewhere near efficiency+max range. Meaning that your build reaches its peak with 3-4 mods. Pack the aug, max efficiency, optional additional energy (not that he needs it), duration and vitality and you have BOTH, stealth AND a flawless ID build without any tradeoff whatsoever. Most people simply go with utility mods tho without pushing the duration that far. Especially outside the ID cluster. Therefore definitly energy, no duration. Beein squishy is no balance. This applies to, as stated, 90% of the frames. Most don't even have any kind of direct protection. Not even the option.

C'mon pal. Tell me how this is supposed to be balanced.

Edited July 24, 2015 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[GuyOnCrack]

Solo players, pre-made teams. Only problem would be playing in a pub but you can avoid it pretty easily. You don't have to be on a team and still, you would only understand the effects of a frame on a team. Rhino has his stomp but it is balanced with his energy use. Before you could have a Trinity and Rhino and they could infinite stasis a room. Rhino and Trinity alone were not OP but in a team situation, they became OP. You lack understanding of a frame by not playing it. Yes, you can experience the second hand effects of a frame but the biggest amount of information to make a base argument is from first hand experience.

 

How would you know what the weaknesses of a frame are if you haven't played it?

 

Say, you see a Loki and he's just disarming the crap out of everything. You would be like, "That S#&$'s OP." Except that Loki needs to be invisible or in a safe place to cast Radial Disarm. I have died many times before because I didn't properly use my environment or my invisibility to keep me safe. A good Loki player would know this and use them effectively. So main issue is this, how would you know these issues if you see a good Loki player work around these weaknesses? You wouldn't.

 

Also, still doesn't make your argument before any less slippery slope. Murder and arson is not equal to being "forced" to play with a Loki.

[AlphaHorseman]

That's the thing, though.  When you have absolute CC like this then there's no difference between Mercury and T4, except that in T4 you might die if you stop spamming for a while.  There's no complexity to the game when it all boils down to creating a shooting gallery.

 

RD was clearly not balanced as a 25 energy power that can reach 50m, and neither are the other mass-disables.  

Hold on now, remember, enemy damage does skill scale, even when disarmed. Their batons can kill you just as much as their guns can, and when it comes to Loki...well he's a squishy little bugger.

 

Also, enemy units do not lose their EHP when they lose their weapons, thus they can still have the tankiness to kill a player on higher level difficulties, or lower ones, if the player isn't high leveled themselves.

 

No power in the game outright disables our enemies either, they slow enemies down or redirect their aggro, but it doesn't completely disable them outside of Stomp, but even then it isn't that useful when the enemies outside the radius can still shoot you.

[GuyOnCrack]

That argument is kinda, oh who am I kidding it is invalid. People love to use this in defense of a frame or weapon. However there are two kinds of important feedback when it comes to balance. How it effects the player in its use and how it effects the team. If you have played with it you understand how it effects the player to a better extent than someone who has not played it. HOWEVER how it effects a team also is a valid form of feedback. Because as the one using the weapon/warframe the person often tends to forget how their skills/weapon usage feels to someone who does not own it or play it. (some just plain get so addicted that they will blindly defend it because they dont want to feel normal like everyone else)

 

Playing a frame/weapon gives first hand experience, being on a team with someone with said frame/weapon gives second hand experience. Both carry valid arguments and both can be misleading and wrong. Just as much as a inexperienced frame player can be wrong so can an experienced one.

 

But hey lets not forget that mastery fodder is useless. So much so that you wouldn't even touch it. If you consider any nerf to make something mastery fodder, then you never were a true fan/player of that frame. And this is coming from someone who still uses AKLEX in t3/4 missions. It sucks compared to others and is pretty much MR fodder compared to all of the other better side weapons. but screw that because it was a gun I liked and set out to make it useful despite its handicap. (cuz duh its a friggin challenge to kill things and see how far you can get with it)

I can somewhat agree to this but the issue arises from the solo and team building aspect. If this game was only a team orientated game, then sure people's comments that haven't played the frame is equally as valid as someone who has. But this game has a solo mode and doesn't force you to play in public matches. Then the issue of players who can work around weaknesses arises. If players see someone who knows how to play a frame, they won't understand the weaknesses of the frame. They just see a person wreaking face with a frame.

Edited July 24, 2015 by GuyOnCrack

[dragonkingdx]

I can somewhat agree to this but the issue arises from the solo and team building aspect. If this game was only a team orientated game, then sure people's comments that haven't played the frame is equally as valid as someone who has. But this game has a solo mode and doesn't force you to play in public matches. Then the issue of players who can work around weaknesses arises. If players see someone who knows how to play a frame, they won't understand the weaknesses of the frame. They just see a person wreaking face with a frame.

I would argue that even if they see an experienced player working around the weaknesses of the frame that they could still have some knowledge of how it works without actually using it. I mean crap it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out press x button=doing x action, and x action has x effect. There is some form of common sense to it which doesn't exactly require you to even play it. I mean we aren't all unintelligent. Those who have played warframe for a decent amount of time pretty much can have more or less a close enough guess to how something new works from past experiences.

 

I mean after 3 months before I even touched a frost I knew exactly how I wanted to set it up and what it needed and I learned a lot just from watching. I didn't need to play it to know how to use it because being on teams with them had taught me the proper way of using it and how quickly you can die if you were reckless/didn't time skills properly. (saw some serious crazy frosts who think running straight into a massive crowd of enemies to cast snow globe then avalanche was a good idea and died because of it) It didn't mean I would be able to play it to the same extent as someone who mained it, but I at least had a decent idea. Its true that newer players can look at a frame and not understand a thing then cry nerf but their arguments usually fall short due to lack of any kind of experience to back it up.

[weezedog]

On a frame that is basically made of glass, this will pretty much completely screw over Loki.

It would just make you have to use decoy.

[AlphaHorseman]

I would argue that even if they see an experienced player working around the weaknesses of the frame that they could still have some knowledge of how it works without actually using it. I mean crap it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out press x button=doing x action, and x action has x effect. There is some form of common sense to it which doesn't exactly require you to even play it. I mean we aren't all unintelligent. Those who have played warframe for a decent amount of time pretty much can have more or less a close enough guess to how something new works from past experiences.

 

I mean after 3 months before I even touched a frost I knew exactly how I wanted to set it up and what it needed and I learned a lot just from watching. I didn't need to play it to know how to use it because being on teams with them had taught me the proper way of using it and how quickly you can die if you were reckless/didn't time skills properly. (saw some serious crazy frosts who think running straight into a massive crowd of enemies to cast snow globe then avalanche was a good idea and died because of it) It didn't mean I would be able to play it to the same extent as someone who mained it, but I at least had a decent idea. Its true that newer players can look at a frame and not understand a thing then cry nerf but their arguments usually fall short due to lack of any kind of experience to back it up.

Oh my dear Frosty, I main him myself, and I'm glad that his skills are getting buffed up.

 

But, that's also an angle that we have to consider. Taking your example with Frost, as a person that mains him, I know his strengths and weaknesses, and I, along with many others, advocated for numerous Frost improvements to allow Frost to be more than just a one trick pony, because his skills were lackluster at best when it came to anything but Snow Globe, and even then Snow Globe has its issues. Thankfully, DE has obliged after we've fought so long for it.

 

Frost himself has many issues, and DE is working to improve them. They're looking to make Frost end-tier viable and strong throughout content with all his powers, and emphasizing whatever roll they have for him. But that's the thing, Frost needs that work in order to improve him. Loki on the other hand is already there, he fulfills his niche and he's also a flexible frame that's a good frame throughout content. I hope DE does that for Frost as well, and other Frames. Loki's position isn't a problem, it's a benchmark. Nova's kit puts her up there, Nyx's kit as well, and I'd wager Trinity as well, even with the nerfs, along with Mag and a few other Frames.

 

The thing they all have in common is that most, if not all of their abilities are scale able throughout all of the available content, and are useful. Our Frames should aspire to be as good in their own respects, so that all frames can be viable for End-Game just as much as the next frame. Nerfing our scale able Frames isn't the solution, improving our lackluster ones are.

[dragonkingdx]

Oh my dear Frosty, I main him myself, and I'm glad that his skills are getting buffed up.

 

But, that's also an angle that we have to consider. Taking your example with Frost, as a person that mains him, I know his strengths and weaknesses, and I, along with many others, advocated for numerous Frost improvements to allow Frost to be more than just a one trick pony, because his skills were lackluster at best when it came to anything but Snow Globe, and even then Snow Globe has its issues. Thankfully, DE has obliged after we've fought so long for it.

 

Frost himself has many issues, and DE is working to improve them. They're looking to make Frost end-tier viable and strong throughout content with all his powers, and emphasizing whatever roll they have for him. But that's the thing, Frost needs that work in order to improve him. Loki on the other hand is already there, he fulfills his niche and he's also a flexible frame that's a good frame throughout content. I hope DE does that for Frost as well, and other Frames. Loki's position isn't a problem, it's a benchmark. Nova's kit puts her up there, Nyx's kit as well, and I'd wager Trinity as well, even with the nerfs, along with Mag and a few other Frames.

 

The thing they all have in common is that most, if not all of their abilities are scale able throughout all of the available content, and are useful. Our Frames should aspire to be as good in their own respects, so that all frames can be viable for End-Game just as much as the next frame. Nerfing our scale able Frames isn't the solution, improving our lackluster ones are.

 

Yes they are working to make other frames scalable, however they all have a set limit. Loki RD does not. Taking snow globe as an example it has a set HP and a set time of invinc when its cast. It scales well because you can still use it while its invinc when enemies are strong enough to overwhelm its HP in a few secs in higher level content. Avalanche wont do much more than freeze them (well after rework along with his other skills) The problem with loki however is that his RD makes them all close combat enemies which are far easier to avoid then a bunch of mid-long range higher damage ones.

 

Lets compare him to excal for a moment. (bear in mind a different mechanic but provides some similar trait) RB on lower level enemies lasts quite a while with a duration build. On higher level enemies it still works but for a short window. If RB did not do that he would be just as powerful as loki. (if not even more so) Enemies albeit do not react much with RB since it seems more or less like they are stunned, but it breeds a similar effect that they can not shoot or attack you like they could before. Which makes them sitting ducks. Like RD, RB does 0 damage it is not meant to damage but its utility is amazing when used right. However its utility scales giving it a use even in higher level content, but that utility has its limits because enemies will recover from it quicker as they get stronger. Loki's utility does not as it remains perm, which is a major issue because its easy enough to stay away from melee enemies (besides infested which more or less are much easier to kill) Yes batons can kill (hell if you have been knocked down by a bombard you know what those butcher bastards can do to you when they get close) But alas easily avoidable if you are aware of your surroundings. And sadly like frost he is only seen as a 1 trick pony with RD because RD is too powerful. (possibly 2 trick because they spam invis as well with 0 repercussion besides stray bullets and well dumb moves into hazards) 

 

His skill utility needs a limit like other frames, a limit in which it is still effective however can not make things trivial. I'd love to see RD wear off after 3-4 secs on a level 60 enemy just like RB and then I would call it balanced. Because RD removes 75% of the threat of any given enemy with a perm duration. (would say 90 or so but for the batons sake of it lets just leave it at 75) It would be effective to take the violence down long enough to change vantage points and take key enemies out. Nyx chaos has its limits with effected enemies, trin even with 99% reduction can be killed in a barrage of bullets and KD's, valkyr (well that one should be tweaked IMO so no invinc while in hysteria) so ummm nvm there, nova is squishy like loki but her skill is mainly used for slowing enemies and adding a damage buff to damage dealt to them (balance being you still have them shooting and it takes a while to effect everything), and we already went over frosts utility and upcoming utilities. There are frames that are getting better at being useful in end game content/highest tier content, but loki is one that has been overlooked in its utilities balance.

 

Personally I wouldn't mind them changing ST and Decoy having decoy deal a stun explosion when it is destroyed or ST doing a similar thing but turning the enemy that was switched into a bomb that deals 1.1x-1.5x damage done to it in a AOE explosion when killed. At least then those skills would have more utility. However in its present state id consider RD a bit too powerful for its own good

Edited July 25, 2015 by dragonkingdx

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

It didn't happen a half year ago when this thread was started and it won't likely happen now because the same people are repetatively whining for a nerf because some player outplayed them.

Again if Loki were as OP as the nerf advocates claim, you would see at least one in every mission. Loki would be all over the place. The fact is, he is not OP. He is just a solid frame.

I didn't participate a half year ago. Found it recently and simply agree to the OP. And a tactical choice over a overpowered frame comes down to the host. Thing is, you can't take a example (pre)mag or frost to a t4 survival while loki, without any doubt, is able to join any mission. As key role. On a kit that floats above that of any other frame. Edited July 25, 2015 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[AlphaHorseman]

Yes they are working to make other frames scalable, however they all have a set limit. Loki RD does not. Taking snow globe as an example it has a set HP and a set time of invinc when its cast. It scales well because you can still use it while its invinc when enemies are strong enough to overwhelm its HP in a few secs in higher level content. Avalanche wont do much more than freeze them (well after rework along with his other skills) The problem with loki however is that his RD makes them all close combat enemies which are far easier to avoid then a bunch of mid-long range higher damage ones.

 

Lets compare him to excal for a moment. (bear in mind a different mechanic but provides some similar trait) RB on lower level enemies lasts quite a while with a duration build. On higher level enemies it still works but for a short window. If RB did not do that he would be just as powerful as loki. (if not even more so) Enemies albeit do not react much with RB since it seems more or less like they are stunned, but it breeds a similar effect that they can not shoot or attack you like they could before. Which makes them sitting ducks. Like RD, RB does 0 damage it is not meant to damage but its utility is amazing when used right. However its utility scales giving it a use even in higher level content, but that utility has its limits because enemies will recover from it quicker as they get stronger. Loki's utility does not as it remains perm, which is a major issue because its easy enough to stay away from melee enemies (besides infested which more or less are much easier to kill) Yes batons can kill (hell if you have been knocked down by a bombard you know what those butcher bastards can do to you when they get close) But alas easily avoidable if you are aware of your surroundings. And sadly like frost he is only seen as a 1 trick pony with RD because RD is too powerful. (possibly 2 trick because they spam invis as well with 0 repercussion besides stray bullets and well dumb moves into hazards) 

 

His skill utility needs a limit like other frames, a limit in which it is still effective however can not make things trivial. I'd love to see RD wear off after 3-4 secs on a level 60 enemy just like RB and then I would call it balanced. Because RD removes 75% of the threat of any given enemy with a perm duration. (would say 90 or so but for the batons sake of it lets just leave it at 75) It would be effective to take the violence down long enough to change vantage points and take key enemies out. Nyx chaos has its limits with effected enemies, trin even with 99% reduction can be killed in a barrage of bullets and KD's, valkyr (well that one should be tweaked IMO so no invinc while in hysteria) so ummm nvm there, nova is squishy like loki but her skill is mainly used for slowing enemies and adding a damage buff to damage dealt to them (balance being you still have them shooting and it takes a while to effect everything), and we already went over frosts utility and upcoming utilities. There are frames that are getting better at being useful in end game content/highest tier content, but loki is one that has been overlooked in its utilities balance.

Actually, other than the timers/energy drain, Molecular Prime, Chaos, Absorb, Hysteria, Cataclysm, and others technically do not have a limit. RD also acts as a team benefit ability, and is a very good one at that. Their avoid-ability is really dependent on how many enemies are in the area, and player damage vs. enemy EHP, along with some other factors.

 

 

Wait, where is it stated that Radial Blind runs out faster in higher content? I don't ever recalling DE stating that anywhere. Still though, Also Extended Duration Invisibility builds, which you do mention. But the fact that he can be built into two different forms isn't a bad thing, as it really does allow for flexibility in his kit. If all our frames had such flexibility, we'd be able to see a multitude of build styles within the game, that isn't a bad thing.

 

Still though, the tradeoff with Radial Disarm is that enemies still move as quickly, whereas Molecular Prime they're slowed. 99% Damage reduction isn't a bad thing, Radial Disarm does change that damage type to melee,but it is still 990% stronger than a well cast Blessing. Is it really that bad that Loki's Radial Disarm can do what it does?

 

He isn't my main, but I can appreciate having him on the field. Could I ask why people feel it's so bad that he is a good frame? I mean his abilities don't deal damage, and he's squishy, that's the tradeoffs. But why is it so bad that his kit is so versatile? Shouldn't all our kits be as varied in applications as such kits? And be as effective in their own respects?

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

Actually, other than the timers/energy drain, Molecular Prime, Chaos, Absorb, Hysteria, Cataclysm, and others technically do not have a limit. RD also acts as a team benefit ability, and is a very good one at that. Their avoid-ability is really dependent on how many enemies are in the area, and player damage vs. enemy EHP, along with some other factors.

Wait, where is it stated that Radial Blind runs out faster in higher content? I don't ever recalling DE stating that anywhere. Still though, Also Extended Duration Invisibility builds, which you do mention. But the fact that he can be built into two different forms isn't a bad thing, as it really does allow for flexibility in his kit. If all our frames had such flexibility, we'd be able to see a multitude of build styles within the game, that isn't a bad thing.

Still though, the tradeoff with Radial Disarm is that enemies still move as quickly, whereas Molecular Prime they're slowed. 99% Damage reduction isn't a bad thing, Radial Disarm does change that damage type to melee,but it is still 990% stronger than a well cast Blessing. Is it really that bad that Loki's Radial Disarm can do what it does?

He isn't my main, but I can appreciate having him on the field. Could I ask why people feel it's so bad that he is a good frame? I mean his abilities don't deal damage, and he's squishy, that's the tradeoffs. But why is it so bad that his kit is so versatile? Shouldn't all our kits be as varied in applications as such kits? And be as effective in their own respects?

A frame with a ability that disables targeting on him AND a decoy that pulls aggro away from him is actually far from squishy. You could just as well call a hysteria valk squishy. And slowed enemys still have a timer going. Molecular prime needs a full mod-bar to work while lokis CC build needs 3-4 mod slots inc efficiency to maximation... Edited July 25, 2015 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[dragonkingdx]

Actually, other than the timers/energy drain, Molecular Prime, Chaos, Absorb, Hysteria, Cataclysm, and others technically do not have a limit. RD also acts as a team benefit ability, and is a very good one at that. Their avoid-ability is really dependent on how many enemies are in the area, and player damage vs. enemy EHP, along with some other factors.

 

 

Wait, where is it stated that Radial Blind runs out faster in higher content? I don't ever recalling DE stating that anywhere. Still though, Also Extended Duration Invisibility builds, which you do mention. But the fact that he can be built into two different forms isn't a bad thing, as it really does allow for flexibility in his kit. If all our frames had such flexibility, we'd be able to see a multitude of build styles within the game, that isn't a bad thing.

 

Still though, the tradeoff with Radial Disarm is that enemies still move as quickly, whereas Molecular Prime they're slowed. 99% Damage reduction isn't a bad thing, Radial Disarm does change that damage type to melee,but it is still 990% stronger than a well cast Blessing. Is it really that bad that Loki's Radial Disarm can do what it does?

 

He isn't my main, but I can appreciate having him on the field. Could I ask why people feel it's so bad that he is a good frame? I mean his abilities don't deal damage, and he's squishy, that's the tradeoffs. But why is it so bad that his kit is so versatile? Shouldn't all our kits be as varied in applications as such kits? And be as effective in their own respects?

Well the timers and energy drain are the limits. Meant to prevent constant use/over spam. As for the excal RB thing ive used it myself with max duration (since I am not one who just spams RJ over and over) On weaker enemies they stay stunned longer, on stronger ones it wears off faster. (noticed it during a tactical alert and when doing t4 survival)

 

The trade off isn't that enemies move the same speed. In fact thats normal, otherwise every damage skill could call that a trade off after the initial stagger. If they moved at break neck speeds and bum rushed you knocking you down before swarming you then id call that a trade off. (though that sounds OP lol it would be considered a trade off) But for RD there is no trade off, reduced to having glow sticks that will stay there until they are killed with the ability to spam it. If it gets some form of valid trade off then there wouldn't be a problem with it.

 

Its not that people hate him because he is a good frame. Its more or less that people dislike him being the answer to anything thats a challenge. Heavy coming this way? RD. High level enemy spam? RD. Can only bring melee? RD+invis. (though its normally just bring a loki as an answer) One skill should never be the answer to every problem, especially when said skill has no limit to its functionality like pretty much every other skill does. I personally do not mind that RD does what it does, but I feel that it need something to put a cap on how well it preforms against enemies that scale. As the enemies scale difficulty should increase as well as the potential for dying. With no limit to RD the only thing that increases is the time it takes to kill enemies and the slight chance of being 1 shot/being effected by auras. Which in a sense does not add realistic difficulty, it makes difficulty trivial in comparison. Which I can see as a problem. Loki is like frost was, a 1 trick pony only useful for his RD because RD is OP with no limit.

[vaugahn]

-snip-

 

Not in relation to this post in general, but I think this is actually one instance where better AI is all that's needed. The common issue I see associated with RD is that the melee AI is easily confused and can be led around in circles or stuck in place to take them out of the fight completely. Better melee AI would make using RD a bit less of an "I win" card.

[(PSN)OMGITSNUKERXD]

Content in warframe is getting harder with Time not easier so we need "very good" frames to handle all that.

[TheBrsrkr]

Solo players, pre-made teams. Only problem would be playing in a pub but you can avoid it pretty easily. You don't have to be on a team and still, you would only understand the effects of a frame on a team. Rhino has his stomp but it is balanced with his energy use. Before you could have a Trinity and Rhino and they could infinite stasis a room. Rhino and Trinity alone were not OP but in a team situation, they became OP. You lack understanding of a frame by not playing it. Yes, you can experience the second hand effects of a frame but the biggest amount of information to make a base argument is from first hand experience.

How would you know what the weaknesses of a frame are if you haven't played it?

 

Say, you see a Loki and he's just disarming the crap out of everything. You would be like, "That S#&$'s OP." Except that Loki needs to be invisible or in a safe place to cast Radial Disarm. I have died many times before because I didn't properly use my environment or my invisibility to keep me safe. A good Loki player would know this and use them effectively. So main issue is this, how would you know these issues if you see a good Loki player work around these weaknesses? You wouldn't.

 

Also, still doesn't make your argument before any less slippery slope. Murder and arson is not equal to being "forced" to play with a Loki.

*sigh*

I can't believe this. 

"Don't like it, don't play public games" is not a valid argument. Warframe was built around being a co-op game. You CAN play solo but the game was obviously built around being in a focused team. You are forcing other people to play how you want, or go play on their own. Why doess everyone have to play around you?

Here's where you show no understanding of hat you're talking about. Yes, Rhino and his Stomp is limited by energy use. Guess what? SO IS EVERYONE ELSE. There are other limiting factors to Stomp that prevent it from being OP, no matter how many mods you put on it. Firstly, there's the "power in use" function that prevents Rhino from recasting until all enemies that are affected die or the timer runs out. NO matter how many times EV is cast, this cannot change. Another balancing aspect is that there is a timer in the first place, meaning you can't just stasis everyone in every room and turn every enemy into so many fish in a barrel. The Stomp itself takes a long time to cast, leaving you completely vulnerable unless you cast Iron Skin beforehand, and even that doesn't last long. It does decent but not overwhelming damage of a pretty netral damage type.Trinity being on the map isn't going to make Rhino OP. It'll make him pretty cheesy, but he and his abilities still have limitations that cannot be bypassed, but mitigated by skilled play.

You know what the best part is? You could most, if not all of this by simply watching a Rhino player play, or even reading the wiki. I don't need to go play a frame I don't like to tell anyone that Rhino isn't OP, because I can play with a Rhino. Sure, they won't know exactly how fragile Iron Skin is  or how much planning actually goes into a Stomp, but they can get a general idea when they see you recast IS 37 times in 5 minutes or see a trouble spot suddenly floating in midair.

[fatpig84]

16 second Invis is inefficient?  What?  You can energy siphon most of its cost over the duration with one energy siphon, and the whole cost if there are two or more present (never mind blue pizzas.)

 

http://goo.gl/VbDQwU

 

This build will trivialize the map while keeping you safe.  If you use Arcane helmets then you can use the Essence helmet to add 2.4 more seconds to Invis (which will allow one ES to restore 90% of the cost.)

 

Where is your Irradiated Disarm man ? 

It is IRD that trivializes content, not RD itself.

To make it fit, you probably have to lose Constitution, so your Invisibility is more or less 12 seconds base.

 

Alternatively cough up 100+ plat and buy an Arcane essense, then drop Streamline and max out Fleeting.

This gives you for IRD and a slightly better duration in invisibility or 14.8 seconds.

 

Also RD doesn't make you any safer against infested lol.

With IRD i can i turn off nearly all infested auras in a 50m radius. Barring eximus types.

Meaning healers and ancients can't do jack. And when they are disarmed half the time they wail on each other.

It is IRD that makes things trivial because with IRD, I don't even need invisibility much.

 

Heck it is works great in Voids too since it kills healer shielding.

That is why I call IRD OP.

 

 

Just enemies losing ranged weapon is just okay, It is not any better than MPrime where I can slow freaking enemies by 75% up to 70 meters for 70 seconds  or use Prism and blind things at 60 meters.

 

In fact it is still inferior to those 2 above as CC.

That is why duration Loki is use as the battery carrier or the button pusher in raids, Not the main CC.

While Mirage and Nova are still the designated CC along with Vauban.

Edited July 25, 2015 by fatpig84