Loki Is Just Too Strong

[GuyOnCrack]

Then what was your whole point then, if they were later given limits to make them balanced?

There are a lot of different factors and different mods that can make both weapons and Warframe do different things. As I said before, there are many factors at play here, not just higher numbers. Look, you even POSTED a way to learn about both weapons WITHOUT PLAYING THEM.

Something being built one way doesn't mean that is absolutely has to be played that way, and that way only. What it doesn't mean, though, is that you have the right to force anyone into or out of either mode.

That's exactly my point, without the obvious strawman. If Loki being OP (not saying he is, not sayine he isn't) didn't affect me at all, why would I have a problem with it? The thing is, it does affect people. Public, with friends, it doesn't matter. A T4S played with your friends or random people will have the same enemies, the same strengths and weaknesses, and will be trivialized in the same way by OP abilities.

First of all, my point is still that you had a slippery slope argument. Second of all, my point is that on a team those abilities were "OP" but solo they are not.

Third, and the person who is giving the information is a person who has PLAYED with both weapons. You still would lack experience and would just repeat whatever somebody else has told you, rather than making your own judgement. Fourth, if there are more factors than just damage, it would make it more crucial to actually play the frame.

If I don't have to be forced to play either way, shouldn't that apply to solo players? So balancing Loki purely on team play would force solo player to play in a team to get the most out of Loki.

My point is that you don't care what happens to solo Loki players, you only care about yourself. Of course, that's not a wrong idea to have. Those solo Loki players mean nothing to you. You only care about what happens if you randomly get paired up with a Loki in a pub match.

[AlphaHorseman]

"I am fine with disarm, but it should have a time period, not forever, not no-limit recasting . "

 

His / her point is timer and being non-recastable. 

 

-------

 

A side note, I think the Equinox 's abilities' new mechanic Could be a possible solution to Loki's 4th. Energy drain according to how many enemies are you affecting on the battlefield. It can solve the spam problem (because you need to watch the energy right now) and even it can be recast, at least people would use it in a more thoughtful manner. It all depends on how steep the drain rate is when affected enemies increase.

 

Energy efficiency is of course a core problem. However, some abilities, like this, and I think Peacemaker, as well as Miasma, Exalted blade etc, also has their own fundamental problem that needs to be adjust.

...You can't disarm an enemy that's already been disarmed, and making it non-recastable makes no sense, not to mention limits his scale ability because of this. All enemy units are able to be affected after the duration of an ability runs out, and outright discriminating against one frame isn't right.

 

Also, if you are referring to Equinox's team ability, that is dependent on how much your allies cast, not on the number of enemy units you affect. Energy goes off from Equinox, if I remember Steve and Scott correctly.

 

Exalted blade is fine, efficiency is fine, however I can see where people have issues with Miasma and Peacemaker. For Miasma, something like this could be interesting:

 

Let's look at Miasma, an ability of contention in the community. Similar to other reworks and changes, I propose mechanical changes to Miasma in multiple different ways:

 

1. Miasma is now a growing cloud expanding from the casting Saryn. Unlike Novas reworked Molecular Prime, the cloud expands to envelop the environment, rather than go straight through. In other words, enemies behind cover would be afflicted as the cloud passes over and around the cover, or that doors would be the gateway for the cloud to seep through, rather than straight through a wall directly as Molecular Prime does. The effectiveness may not be directly through terrain, as Molecular Prime does, but it makes up for that by being able to stay present on the field with duration.

 

2. The range, and expansion rate of the cloud is dependent on Ability Range.

 

3. The length of time that the Miasma stays on the field of battle, and is inflicted on units is affected by Duration mods. Duration refreshes so long as the enemy unit stays within the affected area, but does not stack. When enemy units leave the miasmic cloud, the duration timer no longer refreshes, and the affects wear off at the end of the duration.

 

4. Power Strength now affects how much damage is afflicted on enemy units per tick. In essence, the longer the duration, the more ticks of damage the miasmic cloud would do.

 

5. The clouds presence on the field distorts enemy accuracy when shooting into/out of the cloud by 50%.

 

6. To ensure players do not lose view, adding in the obstruction removal mechanic applied to Nekros' Shadows of the Dead and Mirages Hall of Mirrors, while in tandem adding in the transparency of the most recent iteration of Snow Globe would be paramount.

 

Thus, Miasma now synergizes well with the rest of her duration based kit, acts as a powerful area lockdown ability with damage over time, but not so much as an AoE nuke as we see it now. Its scale ability comes from the accuracy losses, and acts as a useful boon for many play styles associated wit her.

 

And voila, a far better ultimate that synegizes with the rest of her kit.

[climatiseur]

 

...You can't disarm an enemy that's already been disarmed, and making it non-recastable makes no sense, not to mention limits his scale ability because of this. All enemy units are able to be affected after the duration of an ability runs out, and outright discriminating against one frame isn't right.

 

Also, if you are referring to Equinox's team ability, that is dependent on how much your allies cast, not on the number of enemy units you affect. Energy goes off from Equinox, if I remember Steve and Scott correctly.

 

Exalted blade is fine, efficiency is fine, however I can see where people have issues with Miasma and Peacemaker. For Miasma, something like this could be interesting:

 

 

Yes, imo that's the problem because the disarm effect is permanent which is too much. And although it doesn't affect already affected enemies, recasting allows it to affect unlimited targets.

 

The mechanic you mentioned of Equinox is only on her 3rd. If you re-watch the stream, Scott / Steve (can't remember) did mentioned some of her abilities use the mechanics I mentioned above. If I don't remember wrong, it should be her hypnotize ability.

 

I think that could be great because it draws in energy conservation as a concern, which is one of the fundamental problems of many abilities. In this mechanic. people are encouraged to use ability wisely, hence discouraging spamming, in a  milder manner rather than strict mechanical restriction. I think not only Radial Disarm but in fact many other abilities could use this mechanic too.

[AlphaHorseman]

Yes, imo that's the problem because the disarm effect is permanent which is too much. And although it doesn't affect already affected enemies, recasting allows it to affect unlimited targets.

 

The mechanic you mentioned of Equinox is only on her 3rd. If you re-watch the stream, Scott / Steve (can't remember) did mentioned some of her abilities use the mechanics I mentioned above. If I don't remember wrong, it should be her hypnotize ability.

 

I think that could be great because it draws in energy conservation as a concern, which is one of the fundamental problems of many abilities. In this mechanic. people are encouraged to use ability wisely, hence discouraging spamming, in a  milder manner rather than strict mechanical restriction. I think not only Radial Disarm but in fact many other abilities could use this mechanic too.

Ah I can see what you mean, I just rewatched that part of the devstream. I can see how it would be good for some abilities, but a blanket-wide change like that isn't going to make sense (balance wise or power wise) for many abilities in-game. Not to mention this mechanic hasn't been tested yet. I'd say we wait and see what the results are with Equinox before we start recommending these kinds of changes.

Edited July 26, 2015 by AlphaHorseman

[YashiroSora]

First of all, i dont understand why OP would complain just because my favourite frame can solo an abnormally high level Interception. I do not understand why OP is complaining about, looking at a team-play perspective, would even be beneficial to him while playing the late-game missions. 

Just because Loki can clear interception without having to do much, doesnt make his abilities 'overpowered'. As people before me have stated, to play Loki effectively you need a very specific build of mods, and micro-management of: builds in between missions, enemy count, invisibility time counter, new enemies entering disarm range, and if playing with a team, enemy cross-fire. 

 

Loki is currently one of the frames stated as the most balanced in the game as of current, and i see no need why OP, should decide to disrupt that, even though there's nothing wrong.

 

Tl:Dr

Best solution to this is, OP, just go get Loki from the Hyenas, rank it to 30 with a build for loki,  and after playing it, then come back and say if its 'too strong' as you say. I'll even get you the perma-invis build to try it. So we can settle this once and for all. 

Build: http://warframe-builder.com/Warframes/Builder/Loki/t_30_040002003_4-7-5-5-3-5-7-2-5-8-8-5-13-0-3-14-5-5-46-6-5-49-1-7-55-4-4_13-13-49-7-7-9-5-9-55-10-14-5-46-11-4-9-8-14_27/en/1-0-9/45021/0

Edited July 26, 2015 by YashiroSora

[FelisImpurrator]

The issue is that when you Disarm enemies, they just have Batons, no? Well then the solution is simple, give enemy units primary, secondary, and melee weapons. Thus, they have more tools to use on the battlefield, and Disarming them isn't going to be the end-all solution in some cases, as enemy units would have melee weapons, replacing their batons.

On that note, any thoughts on the specific suggestion I had in mind for this Disarm change? I think that would mix it up just enough. Weak weapons because there are a lot of enemies, random weapons for variety (and because it fits his theme), but a chance of having primary, secondary, or melee.

[(PSN)Pharen]

One easy nerf that doesn't nerf the frame: Don't allow Loki to regain energy whilst invisible. That forces him to stay visible whilst regaining energy to either pop invis again or to use for radial disarm.

[AlphaHorseman]

Some of Loki's abilities could use tweaking overall, but right now I'm just here to say your last paragraph gave me an idea.

 

What if, within a certain constrained variety, enemies were given random weapons by RD? Weapons that are less functional utility-wise than the existing ones, even if their damage scales the same way. A Heavy Gunner firing the equivalent of a Lato is still a ranged threat, but far less so than she would be with a Gorgon in hand, simply because those deadly spool-ups no longer exist. You could mix it up even more and say that placing an unfamiliar weapon in the enemy's hands would adversely affect their competency with it - less accurate, lower fire rate, slower reload, or any combination of those things. An assault rifle is still deadly in the hands of someone not trained to use it, but less so than it is for someone who trained with the weapons. So you could end up with butchers and powerfists wielding pistols, or bombards with the classic prod, or a bunch of lancers with the equivalent of a bargain-basement Mk1-Braton. Pretty much always slower and weaker than the original weapons, but with more variety and retention of ranged ability, as opposed to turning the entire battlefield into a bunch of idiots with tiny sticks suicide-charging a gun-toting space wizard.

Haha, I love your last sentence, and I think this would work very well!

[FelisImpurrator]

One easy nerf that doesn't nerf the frame: Don't allow Loki to regain energy whilst invisible. That forces him to stay visible whilst regaining energy to either pop invis again or to use for radial disarm.

Also, the moment your invis expires on your last remnant of energy, you get hit by a stray bolt from a corrupted lancer and die.

 

That... doesn't sound like the best solution.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

Also, the moment your invis expires on your last remnant of energy, you get hit by a stray bolt from a corrupted lancer and die.

That... doesn't sound like the best solution.

#Limboproblems

[YashiroSora]

Why are we all adamant on trying to nerf Loki? There's nothign wrong with him.

[FelisImpurrator]

#Limboproblems

Basically. Poor Limbro.

[TheBrsrkr]

First of all, my point is still that you had a slippery slope argument. Second of all, my point is that on a team those abilities were "OP" but son who is giving the information is a person who has PLAYED with both weapons. You still would lack experience and would just repeat whatever somebody else has told you, rather than making your own judgement. Fourth, if there are more factors than just damage, it would make it more crucial to actually play the frame.

If I don't have to be forced to play either way, shouldn't that apply to solo players? So balancing Loki purely on team play would force solo player to play in a team to get the most out of Loki.

My point is that you don't care what happens to solo Loki players, you only care about yourself. Of course, that's not a wrong idea to have. Those solo Loki players mean nothing to you. You only care about what happens if you randomly get paired up with a Loki in a pub match.

Nowhere in any of my statements was there a slippery slope fallacy. I didn't even suggest any logical progressions, so I have no idea what you're talking about.

Your point was that they WERE OP. WERE. They were later changed so as to not be OP now, right? I don't see your point.

Things aren't OP is solo BECAUSE it's a team based game! No matter how good or bad a frame is, it was NOT designed to do the work of 4 frames. Also, even if it was OP in solo, how does that affect me in the slightest? It doesn't matter to me, and shouldn't matter to anyone what you do by yourself in your own time as long as it doesn't bother anyone or breaks the game.

"Parroting what everyone else says" when they provide detailed facts and statistical or emperical evidence is commonly called "citing". Again, manyf actors at play, blah, blah, blah. If there are more factors than damage, it means there are more things to observe about the frame, not just to throw up your arms and say that you can't know until you try.

Well........yes. If you want to get the most out of a frame, play it in the way it was designed to be played. The Lokis in solo aren't bothering me, you, the OP, or anyone else. If Loki is indeed OP (I don't have enough experience with Loki to say one way or another, I don't play with them often) in a team setting, the way he was meant to be played (but not the ONLY way to play), then he must be changed to suit that first, and solo play after.

[SquirmyBurrito]

One easy nerf that doesn't nerf the frame: Don't allow Loki to regain energy whilst invisible. That forces him to stay visible whilst regaining energy to either pop invis again or to use for radial disarm.

 

Assign this nerf to Ash too while you're at it. Same goes for Valkyr.

 

#Limboproblems

 

That isn't a problem Limbo should ever run into. The dude can manufacture his own energy while remaining invulnerable. 

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

That isn't a problem Limbo should ever run into. The dude can manufacture his own energy while remaining invulnerable.

While permanently in the need to eather

*Set a expensive field

Or

*banish enemys one by one

To actually attack anything. The regeneration is nothing more then a placebo in actuall gameplay. Sad truth.

There have been potential concepts for auto-banishing with damage while riftwalking or allowing loot while inside cataclysm (cause ya know, its not even logical that loot would float to another dimension in a constantly banished field), that have been ignored since his release.

His power-management is #*($%%@ up. Regeneration or not.

Edit: btw, you do realise that calling him invulnerable is quite the brave statement right?

He has the option to switch to another plane of reality. Thing is, evrything that joins him can and WILL attack him. His low defense inside the rift is quite the issue.

A invisible loki/ash with somewhat common sense becomes invulnerable, a hysteria valkyr becomes invulnerable for a fixed duration (with quite the backflash). A limbo becomes invulnerable to the same extend a player becomes while going afk in a safe spot or aborting the mission. That's just bs mate.

Edited July 26, 2015 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[-CMF-crazylexi]

Do you pro-loki-nerf people even play the game? Have you ever played anything beyond tower 1? LMAO. Loki is one of the most balanced warframes in the game.

 

I've pressed 4 with loki, disarmed a whole room, and still been beat to death with batons...

 

Some enemies can't even be disarmed.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

Do you pro-loki-nerf people even play the game? Have you ever played anything beyond tower 1? LMAO. Loki is one of the most balanced warframes in the game.

I've pressed 4 with loki, disarmed a whole room, and still been beat to death with batons...

Some enemies can't even be disarmed.

Try invisibility. And what? Infested?...

[TopSpeed]

no is not loki is ok dont tuch him !

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

Nothing gets ignored. All get theyr share. It's lokis turn after years of nerfs to much weaker frames.

#Karma

[ShawnV2]

People can you stop taking this thread so seriously? You guys are obviously missing the whole point here. You want frames like Saryn and excalibur nerfed, not realizing that a simple nuke power is nothing compared to what Loki can do. So the next time you want to nerf a 'so called' OP ability, turn around and look at your Loki. Now shuddup and let the thread die already, you guys look like a bunch of little kids trying to protect his toys. As the guy says, he ain't asking for a nerf, so chill.

[(PSN)abb12355]

There are others who are easier to play and are stronger than Loki.

Valkyr,the invulnerable tank in the game can become immune to damage for a maximum of 77 seconds. And while in that state,she can kill without worrying about stray bullets hitting her.

Loki has to worry about stray bullets or Prova(if he disarmed the enemies),even if he is invisible,both of which have enough damage to one-shot Loki at higher levels.

Nyx,can take all the enemy damage and give it back to them,killing them instantly. Loki can't kill with abilities. While Warframes with damage abilities can go in a mission with not-so-good weapons,Loki and non-damaging Warframes can't. A general drawback of utility warframes.

Nova,can make the enemies so slow that it almost seems that they are frozen. And then she can shoot one enemy doing 200% damage and the whole room goes BOOM!

Ash,can go invisible just like Loki,but he also has the highest damage dealing ability in the game. Play with Ash and you will realise Loki is nothing compared to his Bladestorm and the slash procs from it. Sure death to enemies even at relatively higher levels where other abilities fail.

And this list goes on.

What Loki is good at is Solo'ing. Like many others. Nyx,Valkyr and Ash can solo a game mode equally well.

But,why complain about the good thing only.

Loki has it's downsides.

In normal level gameplay,Loki players are like "WTH! Let me kill a few things!". Because other Warframes can kill 30 enemies in one go,Loki feels useless.

So,yeah,Loki is neither "ridiculously easy to play" nor is it "ridiculously strong". If anything,that title should probably go to Ash or Valkyr.

Absorb doesn't scale in 60+

[Oswalder]

Do you pro-loki-nerf people even play the game? Have you ever played anything beyond tower 1? LMAO. Loki is one of the most balanced warframes in the game.

 

I've pressed 4 with loki, disarmed a whole room, and still been beat to death with batons...

lol this is on you man, like, move away maybe

 

I have played T3S solo a few times, up to 60 minutes with Loki. NO skill needed, very doable, fairly boring.

 

I want to ask: at what point the fabled skills come in play?

[(PSN)shadowraith_666]

Enough with the weapon/frame nerfs already -_-

[Asokah]

Why whine about exca, loki ect... ??!!

WHY ???

Loki is helpfull, loki is very good with syndicate mods but isnt press 4 for win, so yes you are so powerful, so skilled, the game is boring with loki.. You know what ? play other frame !! You'll see is wonderful o_o new possibilities o_o .

Why whining again and again for pve balanced content just because  "meeh he can solo better than my fav frame nerf !!!!!!"  or " uhuhuh i dont understand why loki have better control than my ash !! go nerf please !!" 

I can solo with any frame for 60 min survival and ... ?  Why talking about solo in co-op game ? Seriously ? 

Better up weakest frame no ? 

Edited July 26, 2015 by Asokah

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

Absorb doesn't scale in 60+

Not to doublequote, ash's ult is also far from beein one of the strongest. The bleeding proccs and dmg type are nice in therms of max dmg but the ability is slow and limited by a maxhit counter. The usability combined with the meleecounter influence is nice but it is fairly balanced compared to any other dmg dealing ability in the game. And building for it definitly ruins the invisibility (if you don't smash 20 arkane trickerys on him)

Loki can just go max range AND put plenty duration in his build. Bad example. Rly bad example that just shows the difference.