Loki Is Just Too Strong

[Marthrym]

There is a reason why its for "advanced players", you probably have played so long you don't see why. Loki was my first warframe back when he was a starter frame to chose from. When you have absolutely no mods you realize that his sub par 75 shields, 75 health and 65 armor are complete trash because he unlike many frames is VERY dependent on his powers for surviverability and to interact with the environment. It takes a while to get all the right mods to make him work properly and i honestly could not wait to get rid of him and that is exactly what I did. Of course, now that I have a lot of experience under my belt and pretty much any maxed out mod you can put on him he runs like brand new Ferrari. There is a good reason why he got removed as a starter frame.

So you need mods. Not experience. Just mods.

There are other frames that rely on their kits to just survive a firefight. Yet none are as strong as him even when properly modded. Which is why I stand by my words : Loki does not require "advanced" players to shine. Just mods. Mods that most players can get very easily nowadays. Much more than 2 years ago.

 

2 years ago Invisibility had more base duration. I think that changed precisely because of the sheer amount of duration mods we have now and how it's increasingly "easy" (mostly if you got the money or friends, I know) to get them. He can still easily go perma-invisible without it hindering his other skills too, unlike other frames who suffer a lot more from min-maxing.

 

He doesn't need Iron Skin, or lots of health or shields. Just a good energy pool (which he has) and a few mods. And like I said, with them he's superior to many other fully modded frames in terms of survivability, killing potential and versatility. He doesn't need powers to do damage too, and his powers don't care much (if at all) for enemy scaling. I'm not saying "OP NERF!", nope. Just that saying he's not the top dog is bullsh!t. He clearly is. And you don't need mad skills to play him well. Not that you need a lot of "skill" in general anyway. Maybe experience though, I agree. But that experience applies for every frame. But that's not his fault. Or anyone's for that matter. That's just how it is.

 

Pretty sure they removed him from the starter frames because for many a player once you go Loki you never go back. Mwhahahaha bad puns... Sorry.

Edited July 27, 2015 by Marthrym

[(PSN)PeetSquared]

I play a lot of frames bit def main a Loki. I don't use him because he is 'invulnerable' and don't even agree with that in the slightest. Even at the 15 minute mark of a t4, Nullifiers and Ancients are much harder on him than most of the other frames I use. Energy disruption and/or drains are very, very bad news for Loki. People who haven't used him much just don't get it. Loki really comes to light after using him a lot.

I'd also argue that many frames seem to specialize in a certain mode. For any defense missions, even with ID, Loki is just not the best. This mostly had to do with damage and damaging abilities. For best case, Loki needs to be up close with invisibility active. Well, that just isn't a good thing, often times.

[S0V3REiGN]

So you need mods. Not experience. Just mods.

There are other frames that rely on their kits to just survive a firefight. Yet none are as strong as him even when properly modded. Which is why I stand by my words : Loki does not require "advanced" players to shine. Just mods. Mods that most players can get very easily nowadays. Much more than 2 years ago.

 

2 years ago Invisibility had more base duration. I think that changed precisely because of the sheer amount of duration mods we have now and how it's increasingly "easy" (mostly if you got the money or friends, I know) to get them. He can still easily go perma-invisible without it hindering his other skills too, unlike other frames who suffer a lot more from min-maxing.

 

He doesn't need Iron Skin, or lots of health or shields. Just a good energy pool (which he has) and a few mods. And like I said, with them he's superior to many other fully modded frames in terms of survivability, killing potential and versatility. He doesn't need powers to do damage too, and his powers don't care much (if at all) for enemy scaling. I'm not saying "OP NERF!", nope. Just that saying he's not the top dog is bullsh!t. He clearly is. And you don't need mad skills to play him well. Not that you need a lot of "skill" in general anyway. Maybe experience though, I agree. But that experience applies for every frame. But that's not his fault. Or anyone's for that matter. That's just how it is.

 

Pretty sure they removed him from the starter frames because for many a player once you go Loki you never go back. Mwhahahaha bad puns... Sorry.

 

 

Surely removing Loki from the starter frames had nothing to do how newbie friendly he was and everything to do with "once you go Loki you never go back." Thanks for enlightening us. Being an advanced player is not being some mlg pro wanna-be/try hard who has spent hundreds of hours playing the game. Having a large enough collection of mods is a being an advanced player. What is the opposite of a new player? An advanced player, seriously this should not be a hard concept to grasp but you sure as hell are making a great attempt at it.

Edited July 27, 2015 by S0V3REiGN

[(PSN)PeetSquared]

Yeah, the whole once you Loki, you never go back premise is offbase...with absolutely no proof to back it up.

[Wargasm_v2.X]

The constant defense for clearly overpowered (mostly because energy is broken as a limiting resource) powers is ..."end game."  I guess everything is balanced since in the placeholder "end game" of infinitely scaling enemies everything eventually hits like a wet noodle.

 

Meanwhile in 98% of the rest of the game everything is faceroll.

 

Warframe has taken the Power Fantasy that is video games and turned it up to the Nth degree for modern gamers and basically removed the primary reason people used to play games - the satisfaction of overcoming a challenge.

 

Instead we are fine with hitting the same button over and over without any thought or tactile prowess because, "farming."  As if the grind is the only reason to play a 3rd person action shooter with Space Ninjas.

[(PSN)PeetSquared]

@Wargasm:

What frames aren't a face roll in 98% of content? Seriously l, I've played 20 frames and almost to a tee, once they can fit enough mods, they all rip the game apart, until the later stages of t4 content.

I'm not even very good at video games. I'm not bad but nowhere near my prime. I guess I don't understand what some of you are talking about when saying Loki makes anything easier. Every single frame I've ran is able to get very powerful, which is what I thought was the point?

Edit...ok, Wargasm, I now see you were prolly just referring to the content I general and not Loki in particular...sorry, yo.

Edited July 27, 2015 by (PS4)PeetSquared

[Emeraudes]

The constant defense for clearly overpowered (mostly because energy is broken as a limiting resource) powers is ..."end game."  I guess everything is balanced since in the placeholder "end game" of infinitely scaling enemies everything eventually hits like a wet noodle.

 

Meanwhile in 98% of the rest of the game everything is faceroll.

 

Warframe has taken the Power Fantasy that is video games and turned it up to the Nth degree for modern gamers and basically removed the primary reason people used to play games - the satisfaction of overcoming a challenge.

 

Instead we are fine with hitting the same button over and over without any thought or tactile prowess because, "farming."  As if the grind is the only reason to play a 3rd person action shooter with Space Ninjas.

 

Unfortunately, the game's concept IS built around the loot mechanic(which is a satisfaction for some people in itself) and free to play games are inherently designed to make the player at least want to purchase some currency for the sake of convenience.

 

Therefore, one of the easiest ways to have the game earn any money at all without resorting to irregular donations from people is to have it in some semblance of the current system for farming gear.

 

The implementation of said system has several methods and all have their pros and cons. So if you're unhappy about it, please write a comprehensive concept suggestion for DE to consider. The concept being a complete overhaul of the core game mechanic that you are expressing dissatisfaction with, I mean.

 

That being said, this is also veering into an off topic issue.

[RealPandemonium]

@Wargasm:

What frames aren't a face roll in 98% of content? Seriously l, I've played 20 frames and almost to a tee, once they can fit enough mods, they all rip the game apart, until the later stages of t4 content.

I'm not even very good at video games. I'm not bad but nowhere near my prime. I guess I don't understand what some of you are talking about when saying Loki makes anything easier. Every single frame I've ran is able to get very powerful, which is what I thought was the point?

Everything being so powerful that enemies have to one-shot you and take no damage in order to present a challenge is what the problem is.  There's no room for meaningful gameplay in the current system.  Being able to become powerful is good and all, as long as gameplay remains interesting and 90% of the game doesn't become a faceroll.  That's what this is all about.  Half of the people in this thread are arguing for meaningful gameplay while the other half is arguing for "don't inconvenience my farming."

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

Please, other frames like Rhino can just slap on Iron skin and be good to go for some time, you cant do that with loki. Try to run around with that default duration for a few weeks (his default invisibility is something like 5 seconds I think). Heck Excal starts out with a base 225 armor, Mag even has double the shields and unlike those other two Loki has ZERO offensive capabilities.

Not sure if you noticed but iron skin is a ability. And stealth multipliers are a present offensive buff, in a game where CC is WAY better then offensive abilitys could ever be.

[(PSN)PeetSquared]

Everything being so powerful that enemies have to one-shot you and take no damage in order to present a challenge is what the problem is. There's no room for meaningful gameplay in the current system. Being able to become powerful is good and all, as long as gameplay remains interesting and 90% of the game doesn't become a faceroll. That's what this is all about. Half of the people in this thread are arguing for meaningful gameplay while the other half is arguing for "don't inconvenience my farming."

I thought the thread was about Loki, lol.

Even if I agree with you, I don't it's a big issue and def don't see how it's a particularly 'Loki issue'. I expect after ranking up a bunch of mods and a frame to 30 and beyond with forma, for a vast bulk of the game to become quite easy. This is pretty normal in most games I've played.

In the end, I don't see Loki as being any worse for trivializing content than any other ranked frame with good mods.

[S0V3REiGN]

Not sure if you noticed but iron skin is a ability. And stealth multipliers are a present offensive buff, in a game where CC is WAY better then offensive abilitys could ever be.

 

If you read carefully you will also notice that I compared Rhinos Iron skin ability to Lokis invisibility ability. Seems like you got confused by the other part where i compared Loki without abilities at all. So to clarify that even without any skills at all Rhino has more health, double the shields and 190 armor compared to Loki.

Edited July 27, 2015 by S0V3REiGN

[(PSN)Prisma144]

Loki works like he should other warframes need teaks and reworks first (Saryn).

Edited July 27, 2015 by (PS4)Prisma144

[RealPandemonium]

In the end, I don't see Loki as being any worse for trivializing content than any other ranked frame with good mods.

It's just that Loki's ability to permanently disarm enemies from relative safety is emblematic of the type of "utility" (read:exploit) that players increasingly demand for every frame.  Any time something game-breaking is debated on, people point to Loki as an example of a frame with extremely powerful CC that hasn't been touched in years.

 

DE is apparently starting to agree with the "permaCC everything or die" mentality, which could be Warframe's nail in the coffin in terms of interesting gameplay in the long term.  

Edited July 27, 2015 by RealPandemonium

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

If you read carefully you will also notice that I compared Rhinos Iron skin ability to Lokis invisibility ability. Seems like you got confused by the other part where i compared Loki without abilities at all. So to clarify that even without any skills at all Rhino has more health, double the shields and 190 armor compared to Loki.

Well, the basic statement was that loki has to rely more on his powers then other frames. That's just not true. Valkyr is in fact the only frame that isn't squishy af without a active power. Rhino is known to be a excellent beginner frame and iron skin is a good example for protection without the need to recast it but it is also a excellent example for just how strong invisibility is in reality

Equip a rhino and step outa the safezone on a t4 def w40+. I dare you.

Btw, iron skin is the absolute exceptation in that concern.

Edited July 27, 2015 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[(PSN)PeetSquared]

It's just that Loki's ability to permanently disarm enemies from relative safety is emblematic of the type of "utility" (read:exploit) that players increasingly demand for every frame. Any time something game-breaking is debated on, people point to Loki as an example of a frame with extremely powerful CC that hasn't been touched in years.

DE is apparently starting to agree with the "permaCC everything or die" mentality, which could be Warframe's nail in the coffin in terms of interesting gameplay in the long term.

Even as someone who mains Loki, I'd have no issue with ID being tweaked to run on a timer or not being recast able until the last enemy that was affected by the last IR was killed. It would be a bit of a nerf but nothing game breaking, imo.

I guess I just don't see the big deal. First, it's a pvp game and all the frames are available to evryone. I def don't see more Loki players out there than other frames and don't think he is really any more survivable, viable or deadly than many other frames I've ran. I dunno, I just think a little perspective is in order before calling for something to be nerfed...

[Marthrym]

Surely removing Loki from the starter frames had nothing to do how newbie friendly he was and everything to do with "once you go Loki you never go back." Thanks for enlightening us. Being an advanced player is not being some mlg pro wanna-be/try hard who has spent hundreds of hours playing the game. Having a large enough collection of mods is a being an advanced player. What is the opposite of a new player? An advanced player, seriously this should not be a hard concept to grasp but you sure as hell are making a great attempt at it.

 

If you think "advanced player" means "has lots of mods"... it explains a lot, and yes, we are going to disagree very strongly with each other. Especially since it is now so easy to get said mods. If players can't even be bothered to make what little "effort" it requires, it's on them. I've seen plenty get them without it taking them "hundreds of hours" or  requiring buying plat to trade for them. I know not everyone is lucky, but that's pushing it.

I suppose high Mastery Rank for you means "advanced" too then? *sigh*

 

Yeah, the whole once you Loki, you never go back premise is offbase...with absolutely no proof to back it up.

 

And I see the pun is lost on others too. Oh well, serves me right for trying to lighten the mood and make jokes... I tend to forget how much twisting word or outright taking everything seriously like it's life or death is a thing in here... My bad, apologies!

Edited July 27, 2015 by Marthrym

[(PSN)PeetSquared]

If you think "advanced player" means "has lots of mods"... it explains a lot, and yes, we are going to disagree very strongly with each other. Especially since it is now so easy to get said mods. If players can't even be bothered to make what little "effort" it requires, it's on them. I've seen plenty get them without it taking them "hundreds of hours" or requiring buying plat to trade for them. I know not everyone is lucky, but that's pushing it.

I suppose high Mastery Rank for you means "advanced" too then? *sigh*

And I see the pun is lost on others too. Oh well, serves me right for trying to lighten the mood and make jokes... I tend to forget how much twisting word or outright taking everything seriously like it's life or death is a thing in here... My bad, apologies!

Calm down there, brotherman! Believe me, I get the pun. I actually was responding to something in the post above mine there...I never read your joke. But I do appreciate keeping it light while discussing Warframe. All good. ;)

[S0V3REiGN]

My only problem with Loki is his irradiating disarm augment. As it is Loki is great frame but giving him that pseudo-chaos ability was just straight power creep and something he did not need. I run it because its too good not to run and if anything needs to get the Axe its the augment. Its either that or Nyx needs to be looked at and I, like many others here, were hoping that at least her augment would save some face but that thing is utter garbage. Honestly, instead of seeing another frame bite the dust - for which I think Loki himself is a very questionable choice - I want to see other frames be brought up to speed. Just look at Excal, he was pretty much an after thought before the rework which was great. Although I loathe that the community has made it a bench mark to rework any warframe that doesn't fit their vision of what that warframe should be like.

 

Well, the basic statement was that loki has to rely more on his powers. That's just not true. Valkyr is in fact the only frame that isn't squishy af without a active power. Rhino is known to be a excellent beginner frame and iron skin is a good example for protection without the need to recast it but it is also a excellent example for just how strong invisibility is in reality and the absolute exceptation.

Equip a rhino and step outa the safezone on a t4 def w40+. I dare you.

 

To any degree each warframe will use its abilities to stay alive, this is obviously understood. When your warframe has sub par surviverability stats across the board compared to each other selectable character you are going to need to rely on your abilities a lot more heavily. I guess this is something we are just going to have to disagree. As a beginner who chose loki as my first warframe I felt I made a mistake as he did not do much to help me when I first started the game. 800+ hours later I can say without a doubt Loki is one of the best warframes in the game.

 

What does me equipping a rhino to a T4 D proves exactly? 

Edited July 27, 2015 by S0V3REiGN

[S0V3REiGN]

If you think "advanced player" means "has lots of mods"... it explains a lot, and yes, we are going to disagree very strongly with each other. Especially since it is now so easy to get said mods. If players can't even be bothered to make what little "effort" it requires, it's on them. I've seen plenty get them without it taking them "hundreds of hours" or  requiring buying plat to trade for them. I know not everyone is lucky, but that's pushing it.

I suppose high Mastery Rank for you means "advanced" too then? *sigh*

 

 

And I see the pun is lost on others too. Oh well, serves me right for trying to lighten the mood and make jokes... I tend to forget how much twisting word or outright taking everything seriously like it's life or death is a thing in here... My bad, apologies!

 

Advanced player is anything past the point where you are no longer a beginner, at what point you cross that threshold is independent to each player. Is that easier to understand? Let me ask you, What is an advanced player to you?

[dragonkingdx]

 

 

What does me equipping a rhino to a T4 D proves exactly? 

 

 

prob that any person who has a rhino knows iron skin pretty much goes down in 1-3 hits and loses HP at a decent rate. >.> roar is the use in longer missions because iron skin is barely even viable.

 

 

 

 

 

I still say RD needs to be tweaked in some way or another as tweaking the AI would probably just plain take too long to do. (could hope it would either be given a short duration effect on stronger enemies, or some sort of aura where anything that enters that radius from the position it was cast gets auto disarmed at the cost of energy drain per sec + enemies regain weaps after 10-15 or so secs) Just feel that RD makes loki a bit too OP by trivializing fighting between players and NPCs. While giving some sense of invulnerability with the synergy of 2+4 besides the occasional stray shot from a newly spawned enemy/occasional aura kill. Nothing should scale infinitely without being reduced as content gets higher, unless that effect is very minimal.

Edited July 27, 2015 by dragonkingdx

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

My only problem with Loki is his irradiating disarm augment. As it is Loki is great frame but giving him that pseudo-chaos ability was just straight power creep and something he did not need. I run it because its too good not to run and if anything needs to get the Axe its the augment. Its either that or Nyx needs to be looked at and I, like many others here, were hoping that at least her augment would save some face but that thing is utter garbage. Honestly, instead of seeing another frame bite the dust - for which I think Loki himself is a very questionable choice - I want to see other frames be brought up to speed. Just look at Excal, he was pretty much an after thought before the rework which was great. Although I loathe that the community has made it a bench mark to rework any warframe that doesn't fit their vision of what that warframe should be like.

To any degree each warframe will use its abilities to stay alive, this is obviously understood. When your warframe has sub par surviverability stats across the board compared to each other selectable character you are going to need to rely on your abilities a lot more heavily. I guess this is something we are just going to have to disagree. As a beginner who chose loki as my first warframe I felt I made a mistake as he did not do much to help me when I first started the game. 800+ hours later I can say without a doubt Loki is one of the best warframes in the game.

What does me equipping a rhino to a T4 D proves exactly?

Believe me, any frame feels like a mistake at some point. I picked mag back then...

The thing with iron skin is the missing scaling. The additional, what was it, 2000? Base life don't scale. Beein a target means death for a rhino at some point.

Avoiding targeting means around 98% protection for loki. Thers still the possibility to die from rockets or auras (poison) but inbisibility is still unrivaled in the game. It works equally effective on any lvl, in any mission. That's a luxury only ash and loki share. And loki doesn't have to pick between invisibility and his ultimate.

[XstryderX]

^ Pretty much this.

^ very true. Someones just jelly to buff their personal frame of choice; well, just master your fav frame instead. 

[RealPandemonium]

 

My only problem with Loki is his irradiating disarm augment. As it is Loki is great frame but giving him that pseudo-chaos ability was just straight power creep and something he did not need. I run it because its too good not to run and if anything needs to get the Axe its the augment

I don't understand this reasoning.  Once enemies are disarmed they're effectively harmless against anything that can move.  Only defense targets are at risk since they cant run away from the disarmed enemies.  

[tripletriple]

I don't understand this reasoning.  Once enemies are disarmed they're effectively harmless against anything that can move.  Only defense targets are at risk since they cant run away from the disarmed enemies.  

This is true if you play on earth and below.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

This is true if you play on earth and below.

Nah man. It is a absolute truth.

Especially at the point where multiple variations of slowing CC's come into teamplay.

Edited July 27, 2015 by (PS4)CoolD2108