Loki Is Just Too Strong

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

Edit...I realize wouldn't solve the "choice" you mentioned but I'm not sure I agree that needs to be enforced. I think the ebb and flow of Loki being able to do both is mitigated by his lower survivability stats. If Loki finds himself without energy or is forced out of his invisibility, he is a dead duck, faster than the other frames I've played (which is vast majority of them).

I could mention that this applies to any frame troughout endless content but he IS weak concerning his basestats.

A buff in the same step definitly wouldn't hurt. NO frame, no matter how strong or effective should be in the position to just die the moment he runs outa energy. Especially not in lowlvl content.

Edited July 28, 2015 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[TheBrsrkr]

I was using the wrong term here, sorry. It's called an appeal to extremes. My bad.

And the P. Skana was better on paper but failed in game compared to the Dakra Prime...... which would defeat your point. And the problem with biased remarks is that they are made by people who only played the frame for a few minutes and claim to understand it or people who only look at data. And again there are still other factors to take in when making a judgement on a frame or weapon. And again, please find somebody who mains or plays a lot of Loki that believes Loki is OP.

So if I had a skill that killed anything around me in a 50 meter radius but took 20 seconds to charge and I was vulnerable the whole time without any way to cancel the move or attack enemies around me, that would still be OP? Overcoming downsides are not the same as overcoming attainability. A weapon taking a long time to get is not the same as a weapon having downsides. Those are not the same in anyway. One is a hurdle that you only have to jump over once, the other is one you have to jump over every time you use the ability.

Let me use Riven from League of Legend as an example. I thought Riven was super OP, until I actually played her. Her damage is incredibly high on paper and in game. But to achieve that damage, you have to master the art of attack move with skill canceling. But there is no way for another player to see that. Even in replays, you wouldn't see that level of mastery. With Loki, how would you understand what a Loki player is actually doing? How would know that the Loki player is hiding behind cover to make up for the long cast time? The only way is for you to play the frame or actually have someone who has to tell you. You wouldn't make the connection unless somebody pointed it out for you. And even if somebody told you, you wouldn't know how hard or easy it is, or how to maximize your survivability unless you play the frame and break it. You can see a magician preform a trick that you know how to do but does that mean you have the dexterity need to do the move or the insight to make the move more believable?

Let me put it to you this way, would you ask a person who merrily rode the rail while playing a open world game about bugs or glitches, or would you rather ask somebody who tries every chance that they get to break the game in any way possible? Both opinions are valid but which one would you ask? Don't answer with, I would ask both because both are valuable.

It isn't really an extreme either, but whatever. We could just drop that, it isn't really adding anything to the discussion at hand.

Is it better on Paper, though? As I said before, anyone who has used Berserker before will know about the DPS it adds, and Dakra clearly has a better crit chance (and maybe crit DMG, I'll have to check). Isn't it also slower too? Also, according to you, unless I have a Skana Prime I won't know about that, and there's no other way to find out than to play with it.

The opinions of people who look at relevant data are just as important as those who have played the frame, simply because the data doesn't change at any point. HOW you do something is irrelevant if the thing in question is inherently broken. Read over my example. The AkSoma Prime is completely OP. How, when and where I use it will not change that. It's the same with anything that's OP.

The example you have there is not OP (in a Warframe perspective) but that isn't what's happening with Radial Disarm. The ability itself has very little limitations, and a very large benefit. I am not really aware of the goings on in LoL, but I'm sure Riven wasn't doing billions of damage in a game where enemy HP bars are in the thousands. It was massive damage, sure, probably more than everyone else. But was it game breaking?

Again, we are looking at two completely different things here. You're looking at the process of getting the effects (casting safely) and I'm looking at the actual effects (disarming enemies). They aren't the same thing. If RD indeed breaks the game, what you did to cast it doesn't matter. Whether I play the frame or not doesn't matter. A Loki player's skill doesn't matter. The ability is broken, that's what matters.

And to answer your horribly confusing question, yes, I would indeed ask both players about their experiences. Because that's what you have to do. You can't (or at least shouldbt,) make a decision or change with half the data.

[GuyOnCrack]

It isn't really an extreme either, but whatever. We could just drop that, it isn't really adding anything to the discussion at hand.

Is it better on Paper, though? As I said before, anyone who has used Berserker before will know about the DPS it adds, and Dakra clearly has a better crit chance (and maybe crit DMG, I'll have to check). Isn't it also slower too? Also, according to you, unless I have a Skana Prime I won't know about that, and there's no other way to find out than to play with it.

The opinions of people who look at relevant data are just as important as those who have played the frame, simply because the data doesn't change at any point. HOW you do something is irrelevant if the thing in question is inherently broken. Read over my example. The AkSoma Prime is completely OP. How, when and where I use it will not change that. It's the same with anything that's OP.

The example you have there is not OP (in a Warframe perspective) but that isn't what's happening with Radial Disarm. The ability itself has very little limitations, and a very large benefit. I am not really aware of the goings on in LoL, but I'm sure Riven wasn't doing billions of damage in a game where enemy HP bars are in the thousands. It was massive damage, sure, probably more than everyone else. But was it game breaking?

Again, we are looking at two completely different things here. You're looking at the process of getting the effects (casting safely) and I'm looking at the actual effects (disarming enemies). They aren't the same thing. If RD indeed breaks the game, what you did to cast it doesn't matter. Whether I play the frame or not doesn't matter. A Loki player's skill doesn't matter. The ability is broken, that's what matters.

And to answer your horribly confusing question, yes, I would indeed ask both players about their experiences. Because that's what you have to do. You can't (or at least shouldbt,) make a decision or change with half the data.

The P. Skana has better critical chance and critical damage. With bright purity, the damage would get 100% increase. So yes better on paper, not in game.

 

So if the ability I described isn't OP, your whole argument about "what you had to go through to get the effect is wholly irrelevant if the effect itself is OP" is debunked. The effect is super OP, being able to kill everything in a 50 meter range. But the method that I have to take is irrelevant right? So the ability must be OP.

Akisoma being OP: Please refer to statement above for this one

Radial Disarm breaking the game: Please refer to statement above.

 

 "A Loki player's skill doesn't matter. The ability is broken, that's what matters."

...... So a person who is unskilled at Loki can play as good as someone has been playing Loki since launch? If RD is as broken as you guys say it is, then Loki must super easy to play and use properly. I mean, you don't have to worry about cast time or being safe or even running out of energy. Somebody can just pick up Loki and face roll with him. Is that true?

 

So you took the option that I specifically told you not to take...... wow. That question was like when somebody asks you, "If I and X was drowning, and you could only save one, who would you save?" It's a question to see which person is more valuable to you. Just like the one that I asked. Maybe a better analogy is in order. Who would you ask about how to keep your teeth healthy, somebody on the street or a licensed Dentist? Both opinions are valid but which one holds more weight?

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

The P. Skana has better critical chance and critical damage. With bright purity, the damage would get 100% increase. So yes better on paper, not in game.

So if the ability I described isn't OP, your whole argument about "what you had to go through to get the effect is wholly irrelevant if the effect itself is OP" is debunked. The effect is super OP, being able to kill everything in a 50 meter range. But the method that I have to take is irrelevant right? So the ability must be OP.

Akisoma being OP: Please refer to statement above for this one

Radial Disarm breaking the game: Please refer to statement above.

"A Loki player's skill doesn't matter. The ability is broken, that's what matters."

...... So a person who is unskilled at Loki can play as good as someone has been playing Loki since launch? If RD is as broken as you guys say it is, then Loki must super easy to play and use properly. I mean, you don't have to worry about cast time or being safe or even running out of energy. Somebody can just pick up Loki and face roll with him. Is that true?

So you took the option that I specifically told you not to take...... wow. That question was like when somebody asks you, "If I and X was drowning, and you could only save one, who would you save?" It's a question to see which person is more valuable to you. Just like the one that I asked. Maybe a better analogy is in order. Who would you ask about how to keep your teeth healthy, somebody on the street or a licensed Dentist? Both opinions are valid but which one holds more weight?

I'd definitly trust the guy on the street. Especially if he knows what's up. (full theoretic knowledge)

A dentist gains something from bending the facts while some random guy doesn't. Same can be applied here.

Edited July 28, 2015 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[TheBrsrkr]

The P. Skana has better critical chance and critical damage. With bright purity, the damage would get 100% increase. So yes better on paper, not in game.

So if the ability I described isn't OP, your whole argument about "what you had to go through to get the effect is wholly irrelevant if the effect itself is OP" is debunked. The effect is super OP, being able to kill everything in a 50 meter range. But the method that I have to take is irrelevant right? So the ability must be OP.

Akisoma being OP: Please refer to statement above for this one

Radial Disarm breaking the game: Please refer to statement above.

"A Loki player's skill doesn't matter. The ability is broken, that's what matters."

...... So a person who is unskilled at Loki can play as good as someone has been playing Loki since launch? If RD is as broken as you guys say it is, then Loki must super easy to play and use properly. I mean, you don't have to worry about cast time or being safe or even running out of energy. Somebody can just pick up Loki and face roll with him. Is that true?

So you took the option that I specifically told you not to take...... wow. That question was like when somebody asks you, "If I and X was drowning, and you could only save one, who would you save?" It's a question to see which person is more valuable to you. Just like the one that I asked. Maybe a better analogy is in order. Who would you ask about how to keep your teeth healthy, somebody on the street or a licensed Dentist? Both opinions are valid but which one holds more weight?

First off, you said Skana Prime, not Prisma Skana. Don't blame me. The 100% increase still doesn't put it over the Dakra P in any case. And since both are crit viable, but the Dakra has better base damage, plus an extra mod slot since the Prisma Skana needs the Aug to even compete, it's clear which would come out on top.

Wrong. Killing everything in a 50m radius after spending time unable to respond to attacks for a full 20 seconds in a WF perspective is actually a bit underpowered, in fact. 20 seconds is a long time to not be able to do anything, and even if you for kill everyone there, the enemy has 20 more seconds to try again. There are limiting factors on the ability itself, and they do not break the game. RD has no such limitations. You simply cast and enemies lose the ability to engage you at range FOREVER. Whether that is or isn't OP, I can't say, I haven't played with enough Loki users, and I don't care enough about Loki to crash my crappy phone trying to get the relevant data. However, if your only argument against people who think it's OP is that, it may very well be.

As I said in the exact sentence you quoted, skill is irrelevant if the ability is broken. So what if new players aren't OP? It doesn't make it okay for veterans to be OP. It is wholly irrelevant to the argument that it is BROKEN.

If that was your intent, then you should have phrased the question better. The drowning situation is simply the wrong way to think of things in this particular situation, because of the different objectives. If two people I know were drowning, I would save the one closest to me. That is a subjective answer, since the parameters (people to be saved) were left open to interpretation, and the subject was myself. However, if one of my teeth were bad, I would sooner talk to a dentist about it than some guy on the street because dentists are the designated bodies of information of mouth care. That is not subjective, it's a fact. Using that knowledge, you can make a rational assessment and conclusion.

In the situation you described before you essentially asked "who's opinion do you prefer?" If you want the best amount and quality of data, you would have to go for both.

Finally, your arguments were not about who's argument held more weight than who. You, and others, specifically said that you have to play Loki to havea valued opinion on this topic. I say that this is false and severely limits the discussion at hand.

[Magneu]

If Irradiating Disarm applied a different proc instead (beats me what), he'd be balanced again. As is, he's in waaaay too many squads compared to other frames.

[RealPandemonium]

If Irradiating Disarm applied a different proc instead (beats me what), he'd be balanced again. As is, he's in waaaay too many squads compared to other frames.

Well, really, why did RD get an augment in the first place?  I guess they wanted to make it more useful against Infested?

[GuyOnCrack]

First off, you said Skana Prime, not Prisma Skana. Don't blame me. The 100% increase still doesn't put it over the Dakra P in any case. And since both are crit viable, but the Dakra has better base damage, plus an extra mod slot since the Prisma Skana needs the Aug to even compete, it's clear which would come out on top.

Wrong. Killing everything in a 50m radius after spending time unable to respond to attacks for a full 20 seconds in a WF perspective is actually a bit underpowered, in fact. 20 seconds is a long time to not be able to do anything, and even if you for kill everyone there, the enemy has 20 more seconds to try again. There are limiting factors on the ability itself, and they do not break the game. RD has no such limitations. You simply cast and enemies lose the ability to engage you at range FOREVER. Whether that is or isn't OP, I can't say, I haven't played with enough Loki users, and I don't care enough about Loki to crash my crappy phone trying to get the relevant data. However, if your only argument against people who think it's OP is that, it may very well be.

As I said in the exact sentence you quoted, skill is irrelevant if the ability is broken. So what if new players aren't OP? It doesn't make it okay for veterans to be OP. It is wholly irrelevant to the argument that it is BROKEN.

If that was your intent, then you should have phrased the question better. The drowning situation is simply the wrong way to think of things in this particular situation, because of the different objectives. If two people I know were drowning, I would save the one closest to me. That is a subjective answer, since the parameters (people to be saved) were left open to interpretation, and the subject was myself. However, if one of my teeth were bad, I would sooner talk to a dentist about it than some guy on the street because dentists are the designated bodies of information of mouth care. That is not subjective, it's a fact. Using that knowledge, you can make a rational assessment and conclusion.

In the situation you described before you essentially asked "who's opinion do you prefer?" If you want the best amount and quality of data, you would have to go for both.

Finally, your arguments were not about who's argument held more weight than who. You, and others, specifically said that you have to play Loki to havea valued opinion on this topic. I say that this is false and severely limits the discussion at hand.

Dude, I said P. Skana.... like twice you even said it.

"The P. Skana has better critical chance and critical damage"

"And the P. Skana was better on paper but failed in game compared to the Dakra Prime"

Using your earlier example, if I were to say P. Skana was better than Dakra Prime<-What you said

 

Are you understanding my point? IF THAT ABILITY I NAMED IS NOT OP THEN YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID BECAUSE THE EFFECT IS OP BUT THE METHOD IS NOT! WHICH IS WHAT YOU ARGUED!

Again, what you had to go through to get the effect is wholly irrelevant if the effect itself is OP<-WHAT YOU SAID

Please read your argument.

 

So rewarding veterans for skilled play is OP? If a new player picks up Loki and doesn't do well with him, how is that OP? So skill is OP? Is this what this game has been reduced to, a pool of players who saw a veteran Loki outplaying them and want Loki nerfed because they're "OP"? What the hell is OP anymore? Before OP was a weapon or frame that anybody could use and make the game trivial but now it's rewarding skill play?

 

Again, stop taking these questions and not actually answering them. I didn't ask for an analysis of the question I said answer the question. Which you are trying to avoid. But for the sake of argument, both the person on the street and the dentist have experience in dental care(Or at least I hope), but one person has more experience and knowledge on the subject. Doesn't matter if the subject is objective or subjective, who has more knowledge and experience is the point. In practically, any situation you would pick the expert over an average Joe. Taking one step further, would you trust somebody to asset your ailment if they had a degree in medicine or somebody who researched your symptoms with Google?

 

Just like how you would ask random people who watched a TED talk about astronomy to join a debate about astronomy. If you really want to know why Loki players don't like people who don't play Loki that want to discuss a nerf, it's because it's really unjustifiable. You lack first hand experience yet you want to change the experience of those who do have first hand experience without the knowledge or the playtime. Again, you only experienced him through a squad, but want to change how the frame works inside and outside a squad. For Loki player, a change both good and bad would follow them but for you, a person who has not played or experienced Loki enough, would only feel the change for less that 0.001% of your playtime. Do you see the imbalance of effects of change? You would barely feel the effects but somebody else would get hammered by it but for what? Because somebody who hasn't even played Loki long enough to understand the strengths and weaknesses or somebody who hasn't even played the frame wants a nerf because he's "OP". Those people are like that guy who randomly joins a conversation that they only have little knowledge about and claims that they know more than the people who specialize on the subject.

Edited July 28, 2015 by GuyOnCrack

[GuyOnCrack]

The constant defense for clearly overpowered (mostly because energy is broken as a limiting resource) powers is ..."end game."  I guess everything is balanced since in the placeholder "end game" of infinitely scaling enemies everything eventually hits like a wet noodle.

 

Meanwhile in 98% of the rest of the game everything is faceroll.

 

Warframe has taken the Power Fantasy that is video games and turned it up to the Nth degree for modern gamers and basically removed the primary reason people used to play games - the satisfaction of overcoming a challenge.

 

Instead we are fine with hitting the same button over and over without any thought or tactile prowess because, "farming."  As if the grind is the only reason to play a 3rd person action shooter with Space Ninjas.

I wished that difficulty wasn't infinite scaling enemies, or nullifiers that for whatever reason nullify high damage, low fire rate weapons, or bombards that shot missiles that targets you better than a god damn shark when you are bleeding more blood than a old 90's action movie. Most ultimates in this game don't even feel like you're changing the tide of the battle, it just feels like you add a few more seconds on your death countdown. Then people want to add more difficult enemies and say that you can priority target them but we have some many god damn priority target that everything just @(*()&#036; sucks and doesn't even feel like a challenge, just really really cheap.

Oh, there's four bombards and three heavy gunners, just priority target them.

Oh, a nullifier and you have a dread, you could spend the next ten seconds getting your sweet butt cheeks fired upon trying to take down that bubble or you could run into the death ball that awaits you in that bubble. Did we mention that we gave the nullifiers snipers for guns?

This game is about having OP powers but at this point, it's not about having that luxury, it's about needing it. Enemies are essential unstoppable forces of death after a certain point and if you don't have the powers necessary you can kiss your &amp;#&#33; goodbye. We need better enemies, better weapons that reward skill, better things in generally before asking for nerfs, because you're only patching up a large cut by beating with a banana at this point. 

[Mippy]

tell me again that a 30k HP and damage reflecting and automatically stunning mesa cant take a hit to the face..

[SquirmyBurrito]

Well, really, why did RD get an augment in the first place?  I guess they wanted to make it more useful against Infested?

 

Why wouldn't RD get an augment? I mean, I'm fairly certain the end goal is for every ability to have at least one augment.

[dragonkingdx]

I wished that difficulty wasn't infinite scaling enemies, or nullifiers that for whatever reason nullify high damage, low fire rate weapons, or bombards that shot missiles that targets you better than a god damn shark when you are bleeding more blood than a old 90's action movie. Most ultimates in this game don't even feel like you're changing the tide of the battle, it just feels like you add a few more seconds on your death countdown. Then people want to add more difficult enemies and say that you can priority target them but we have some many god damn priority target that everything just @(*()$ sucks and doesn't even feel like a challenge, just really really cheap.

Oh, there's four bombards and three heavy gunners, just priority target them.

Oh, a nullifier and you have a dread, you could spend the next ten seconds getting your sweet butt cheeks fired upon trying to take down that bubble or you could run into the death ball that awaits you in that bubble. Did we mention that we gave the nullifiers snipers for guns?

This game is about having OP powers but at this point, it's not about having that luxury, it's about needing it. Enemies are essential unstoppable forces of death after a certain point and if you don't have the powers necessary you can kiss your ! goodbye. We need better enemies, better weapons that reward skill, better things in generally before asking for nerfs, because you're only patching up a large cut by beating with a banana at this point. 

 

Ummmmmm dude I do not know what kind of crack you are smoking, (joke on the forum name) but the point of infinitely scaling enemies is to have a point where its a "your screwed" moment. The game does not need OP powers, players need to learn that there should be a limit to how far they can go. That limit obviously being where you die enough to run out of revives or just plain say screw it extract because its too difficult. The challenge is not meant to go on forever, that is why the enemies scale and players do not. Seriously if you honestly think that players should have the ability to scale along with enemies you are just asking for the same press 1 button to win mechanic like with lvl 10 enemies.

 

There always needs to be a point in the game where you get to the most OP boss ever, and finally beat it knowing that you have conquered the strongest thing you can fight. (which will probably have killed you at min 10+ times before you even understood how to formulate a plan to beat him) However the drawback is what now? You have beaten the most OP boss now what do you do? try to beat it faster? with no damage taken? To many that is not appealing.

 

Or the other option is to play with infinite scaling (like wf) enemies get too powerful that you can not handle them and the goal is surviving as long as you can while using your time as a benchmark. (and with rewards every round/5 mins/5 waves you have some incentive to keep going) When something makes challenges too easy and trivial the usefulness of it is placed so it is on par with other skills. So what you do will be fairly challenging at a sooner point like with other frames. (albeit some still need looking at, loki has been ignored for quite some time which I partially blame on the community that does nothing more than say "loki master race" or "leave loki alone/don't touch my loki" with absolutely no reasoning behind it)

 

I believe its loki's time to be looked at because his RD and invis combo can mean near invincibility. (while it is technically arguable that on a less equipped loki it is more challenging the fact of the matter that challenge did technically prove it was for "advanced players" because you would die much much easier without the proper mods) Note that having him looked at which the community seems to be highly against, doesn't always mean heavy nerf's some things tend to get adjusted to suit some nerfs. Hell excal used to be just as squishy as nova/loki now he has more armor. (believe it was like 25 before IIRC or somewhere in the lower double digits) Everything needs adjusting and it just seems like loki users are too cautious (would love to use the word afraid here) that their frame may become useless. But at the same time they do not see that it could become better at the same time. (from my experience DE tends to not keep people pissed off about something that ruins something for too long in regards to warframes)

[Sakatchi]

No, loki is not op.

 

His skills have senergy with eachother, which gives him numerous options and battle feild controll.

 

This seems op, since most of the frames have skill sets that are all over the place and skills that dont work with one another.

 

But in reality, his invisibility while strong, has a max of 30 seconds, which requires 3 mods.

His switch teleport, while useful requires range, so thats another 2 mods.

And his Radial disarm while awsome with an infanite duration, has a los check, and suddenly you have a wave of things coming at you with high damage prods as the op pointed out.

 

He takes some skill to use, and you should never nerf a skill based frame simply because he out performs you.

 

Tl:dr loki is balanced, and more frames need to be like him senergy wise.

[GuyOnCrack]

Ummmmmm dude I do not know what kind of crack you are smoking, (joke on the forum name) but the point of infinitely scaling enemies is to have a point where its a "your screwed" moment. The game does not need OP powers, players need to learn that there should be a limit to how far they can go. That limit obviously being where you die enough to run out of revives or just plain say screw it extract because its too difficult. The challenge is not meant to go on forever, that is why the enemies scale and players do not. Seriously if you honestly think that players should have the ability to scale along with enemies you are just asking for the same press 1 button to win mechanic like with lvl 10 enemies.

 

There always needs to be a point in the game where you get to the most OP boss ever, and finally beat it knowing that you have conquered the strongest thing you can fight. (which will probably have killed you at min 10+ times before you even understood how to formulate a plan to beat him) However the drawback is what now? You have beaten the most OP boss now what do you do? try to beat it faster? with no damage taken? To many that is not appealing.

 

Or the other option is to play with infinite scaling (like wf) enemies get too powerful that you can not handle them and the goal is surviving as long as you can while using your time as a benchmark. (and with rewards every round/5 mins/5 waves you have some incentive to keep going) When something makes challenges too easy and trivial the usefulness of it is placed so it is on par with other skills. So what you do will be fairly challenging at a sooner point like with other frames. (albeit some still need looking at, loki has been ignored for quite some time which I partially blame on the community that does nothing more than say "loki master race" or "leave loki alone/don't touch my loki" with absolutely no reasoning behind it)

 

I believe its loki's time to be looked at because his RD and invis combo can mean near invincibility. (while it is technically arguable that on a less equipped loki it is more challenging the fact of the matter that challenge did technically prove it was for "advanced players" because you would die much much easier without the proper mods) Note that having him looked at which the community seems to be highly against, doesn't always mean heavy nerf's some things tend to get adjusted to suit some nerfs. Hell excal used to be just as squishy as nova/loki now he has more armor. (believe it was like 25 before IIRC or somewhere in the lower double digits) Everything needs adjusting and it just seems like loki users are too cautious (would love to use the word afraid here) that their frame may become useless. But at the same time they do not see that it could become better at the same time. (from my experience DE tends to not keep people pissed off about something that ruins something for too long in regards to warframes)

Or I hate the fact that infinite scaling is really even a thing. Rather than actually making the game hard by having increased A.I competence we have infinite scaling enemies which just makes the game feel hard but in actuality, it just makes the game annoying. Increased damage and health are not a method of difficulty, they are enhancers. Making a enemy have more health doesn't make the enemy hard to fight against, just longer. Increase damage is just plain annoying. I'm not saying that more health and damage can't make a game feel harder, but again, it's only a feeling. True difficulty is created by making the player work around a situation, like a puzzle. Finding out when to go in and out. Finding holes. But Warframe lacks that. I would be fine with infinite scaling if the enemies would actually prove a challenge in how they work not how much they damage or how much they tank.

The game needs "OP" powers, powers that make you feel like you're actually doing something significant. This game is called Warframe, but most frames are just additives to the real stars of the show, weapons.

[TheBrsrkr]

Dude, I said P. Skana.... like twice you even said it.

"The P. Skana has better critical chance and critical damage"

"And the P. Skana was better on paper but failed in game compared to the Dakra Prime"

Using your earlier example, if I were to say P. Skana was better than Dakra Prime<-What you said

 

 

Ah well, my mistake, he did say Prisma Skana.  This section still applies though:

 

 The 100% increase still doesn't put it over the Dakra P in any case. And since both are crit viable, but the Dakra has better base damage, plus an extra mod slot since the Prisma Skana needs the Aug to even compete, it's clear which would come out on top.

Moving on:

 

what you had to go through to get the effect is wholly irrelevant if the effect itself is OP<-WHAT YOU SAID

Please read your argument.

Yes, now look at the effect you suggested. Everything dies......after 20 seconds. During which you can't do anything. These things are not exclusive from the effect, are they? And since there are inherent balancing factors to the powerful effect, and the effect itself, how can you call it OP? The effect has severe penalties to counter it's massive effect. "Being squishy" is not part of Radial Disarm. Long cast times are, but it is nowhere long enough to justify putting enemies at a permanent, crippling disadvantage. At least, that's what others seem to think. Like I said, I don't know or care to know more about Loki, because it simply hasn't affected me enough to form a proper opinion about it.

 

So rewarding veterans for skilled play is OP? If a new player picks up Loki and doesn't do well with him, how is that OP? So skill is OP? Is this what this game has been reduced to, a pool of players who saw a veteran Loki outplaying them and want Loki nerfed because they're "OP"? What the hell is OP anymore? Before OP was a weapon or frame that anybody could use and make the game trivial but now it's rewarding skill play?

Veteran players should be more powerful than new players. Veteran players did not, however, earn the right to break the game. If something is OP, even if you worked hard to make it so, it should be brought to balance. This reminds me of a similar conversation with someone over a bug where hitting reload and using quick melee at the right time would instantly reload the clip (no, not Reload Animation Cancel.) According to him, you had a very small window of time to make it work, and it had to be perfect or your reload would take longer as you just stalled it. It also differed from weapon to weapon, and you had to practice to time it right for each seperately. It took a level of skill and practice, yes, but it allowed players to bypass one of the main limiting factors of guns in general. Reloading an empty Soma Prime in less than a second is not balanced. No matter how much skill and practice you put into it, it still isn't balanced. This is what I mean about player skill being irrelevant. Player skill is not a balancing factor. It can only affect application of effects, not the effects themselves. It doesn't matter if a new or vetran player broke it, it's broken.

 

Again, stop taking these questions and not actually answering them. I didn't ask for an analysis of the question I said answer the question. Which you are trying to avoid. But for the sake of argument, both the person on the street and the dentist have experience in dental care(Or at least I hope), but one person has more experience and knowledge on the subject. Doesn't matter if the subject is objective or subjective, who has more knowledge and experience is the point. In practically, any situation you would pick the expert over an average Joe. Taking one step further, would you trust somebody to asset your ailment if they had a degree in medicine or somebody who researched your symptoms with Google?

Your first question was loaded.

Your second question wasn't relevant.

Your third question was answered.

The dentist is the relevant authority on dental care, so of course I would ask a dentist about my dental state. This is where the similariy with what you said above ends. The relevant authorities are supposed to provide objective data on the current state of the object (my tooth) and porvide a proper assesment and alternatives, if needed. You're not going to go to a dentist and meet him at the counter and he tells you what he THINKS is wrong. He will examine the problem, identify the cause and provide alternatives and solutions, along with relevant information as needed. That isn't subjective.  The random guy on the street does not have the tools or the talent, but he can get the information. If you have a gaping cavity that's been bothering you for days and a swelling to the side of your face, I wouldn't have to be a dentist to tell you that it's most likely an abcess. It may not be an abcess, it could be something completely irrelevant to the cavity. The symptoms, however, are consistent with those of abcesses. That's not subjective.

[dragonkingdx]

Or I hate the fact that infinite scaling is really even a thing. Rather than actually making the game hard by having increased A.I competence we have infinite scaling enemies which just makes the game feel hard but in actuality, it just makes the game annoying. Increased damage and health are not a method of difficulty, they are enhancers. Making a enemy have more health doesn't make the enemy hard to fight against, just longer. Increase damage is just plain annoying. I'm not saying that more health and damage can't make a game feel harder, but again, it's only a feeling. True difficulty is created by making the player work around a situation, like a puzzle. Finding out when to go in and out. Finding holes. But Warframe lacks that. I would be fine with infinite scaling if the enemies would actually prove a challenge in how they work not how much they damage or how much they tank.

The game needs "OP" powers, powers that make you feel like you're actually doing something significant. This game is called Warframe, but most frames are just additives to the real stars of the show, weapons.

 

Well a solution to said infinite scaling is to add more awareness/stack on different move sets and maybe add skills/enhance skills on stronger enemies. However that is very time consuming considering at xx level enemy y gains z effect/movement pattern/skill. Adding that to each and every enemy type would just be time consuming and that is just 1 added thing. It would have to scale further with levels. Considering its time consuming the easiest way is add xx HP/damage/armor every x level. That is much simpler and thats what warframe is. Its a means of difficulty since they last longer and do more damage allowing them to swarm you and effectively kill you in the blandest way possible. An OP power kinda counteracts the difficulty that it is meant to give. Which in turn defeats the purpose of warframes style of difficulty.

 

IMO lasting 2-3 hours is an achievement and worthy of doing something significant. (you can of course disagree with me there, but going where few choose not to go seems like something worthwhile) Because few want to waste that much time when they can do the same thing 2-3 times with an easier difficulty for the rewards sake. Though it may be called warframe the powers are really just meant to complement the weapons. Otherwise what is the point of weapons? it would pretty much mean that we are using powers 90% of the time. Warframes are pretty much what base defense suit you want with bonus powers. (the suit decides the HP/energy/armor etc) While the weapons sole purpose is to kill, warframes purpose is to assist and defend. (though that is just my interpretation) 

[-dicht.Amducias-]

I don't have much to say about the Trin nerfs, but it's hard to argue that she wasn't "overpower-full godess". She could make her entire team totally invincible, which caused stupid things like 250 wave defences and seven hour survivals.

Anyways, I don't think Loki needs any changes, nerf or otherwise. Yes it's true that he can do tons of things, but he doesn't really have a monopoly on anything- even though Loki is very powerful, other frames are still totally viable.

And do you think its not possible anymore?

[-dicht.Amducias-]

Ummmmmm dude I do not know what kind of crack you are smoking, (joke on the forum name) but the point of infinitely scaling enemies is to have a point where its a "your screwed" moment. The game does not need OP powers, players need to learn that there should be a limit to how far they can go. That limit obviously being where you die enough to run out of revives or just plain say screw it extract because its too difficult. The challenge is not meant to go on forever, that is why the enemies scale and players do not. Seriously if you honestly think that players should have the ability to scale along with enemies you are just asking for the same press 1 button to win mechanic like with lvl 10 enemies.

There always needs to be a point in the game where you get to the most OP boss ever, and finally beat it knowing that you have conquered the strongest thing you can fight. (which will probably have killed you at min 10+ times before you even understood how to formulate a plan to beat him) However the drawback is what now? You have beaten the most OP boss now what do you do? try to beat it faster? with no damage taken? To many that is not appealing.

Or the other option is to play with infinite scaling (like wf) enemies get too powerful that you can not handle them and the goal is surviving as long as you can while using your time as a benchmark. (and with rewards every round/5 mins/5 waves you have some incentive to keep going) When something makes challenges too easy and trivial the usefulness of it is placed so it is on par with other skills. So what you do will be fairly challenging at a sooner point like with other frames. (albeit some still need looking at, loki has been ignored for quite some time which I partially blame on the community that does nothing more than say "loki master race" or "leave loki alone/don't touch my loki" with absolutely no reasoning behind it)

I believe its loki's time to be looked at because his RD and invis combo can mean near invincibility. (while it is technically arguable that on a less equipped loki it is more challenging the fact of the matter that challenge did technically prove it was for "advanced players" because you would die much much easier without the proper mods) Note that having him looked at which the community seems to be highly against, doesn't always mean heavy nerf's some things tend to get adjusted to suit some nerfs. Hell excal used to be just as squishy as nova/loki now he has more armor. (believe it was like 25 before IIRC or somewhere in the lower double digits) Everything needs adjusting and it just seems like loki users are too cautious (would love to use the word afraid here) that their frame may become useless. But at the same time they do not see that it could become better at the same time. (from my experience DE tends to not keep people pissed off about something that ruins something for too long in regards to warframes)

GuyonCrack is 100% right, it always was like that and it always should be like that, there are 2 things i love warframe for:

1. How u can crush enemies in whole waves with 1 button in lower levels and how u need to be concentrating and avoiding big groups of enemies or keeping them cc'ed to not die in 1 shot in high levels and endless mission types

2. The speed of warframe but this will be removed with u17 anyway so if they kill point 1 many players will leave anyway

Edited July 29, 2015 by W4vE

[Mippy]

GuyonCrack is 100% right, it always was like that and it always should be like that, there are 2 things i love warframe for:

1. How u can crush enemies in whole waves with 1 button in lower levels and how u need to be concentrating and avoiding big groups of enemies or keeping them cc'ed to not die in 1 shot in high levels and endless mission types

2. The speed of warframe but this will be removed with u17 anyway so if they kill point 1 many players will leave anyway

We don't need power tweaks or additional skills or this stupid infinite scaling for these creeps. We need a proper AI to fight against. Warframe is all about PvE and for that purpose I can tell it is the worst experience ever had in any game in existance. Sure you can give that guy a new aura, the other guy more levels and that dude over there gets a new weapon, but it doesn't make the slightest difference if they all behave the same -> slowly WALKING (not even running) straight up into your face, all randomly crowded up like digital love parade and a very few running in circles or hiding in stupidity (seriously this cannot be called "taking cover"), sitting and waiting for you to run around the corner to shoot them in the forehead. Do you really like it how it is now? Fight against silly hordes of bulletsponges of crap loot? You said you believe people will leave when infinite scaling is removed. I tell you the opposite. I think the only reason for people staying loyal to warframe is the awesome ninjamoves, the graphics and basicly the combat system. But Everyone is #*($%%@ up by stupid repetitive gameplay and annoyingly easy enemies. I mean every new players gets to see the endcontent right from the start, because early game doesn't differ the slightest from end game. I have friends who loved warframe and were absolutely excited playing it for.. like a week. Before getting bored and annoyed. And what annoys ME most about that infinite scaling thing is that with good enough equipment you have to wait like 40 minutes in an endless mission to actually really have to move to survive. Anything before is just clay pigeon shooting because enemies are plain dumb, don't do damage, die from one hit and still run into you like kamikaze guys, except for the fact that they don't even do kamikaze.

As far as I can tell there is no AI in this game and every enemy follows the same behavior, movement, aiming, """awareness""", the only diffirence between them is their rotation of moves they are capable of. No matter if it's a Corpus guy, Grineer guy, a Moa, a flying drone or.. oh wait that's already all enemies we have in the game! No really what I'm telling is sure there are many individual variations of enemies all looking different, having different gear and names but they all feel the same and follow the same stupid behavior no matter what variant, equip, name or location, so basically we only have 4 different enemies which don't even differ much except for their shape and resistance to elements.

I think the answer to the prio number one problem (that warframe is a brainless statbased grindfest) is as simple as it's impossible. Completely remove this whole stat and levelbased "gameplay", rely more on the players skills to controll his frames and equipment and introduce a battlesystem similar to the one used in the "Metroid" franchise. There are no stats - no armor, no damagenumbers popping up, no levels. There are just elements, certain weaknesses against these elements and weak spots. This way, along with a drastical reduction of player AND enemy  power and especially enemy number, a better AI (tactical AI squads making use of skills themselves, actually reacting to how the tenno encounter them..) would make an overall more threatening and challenging setting during the missions where you finally need to think and chose what weapons and elements you equip to have at least a chance to defeat certain enemies at all, that would be great. There could be so much variety of difficult and (brain-)challanging missions for both solo and partyplayers with that kind of a system, but all we get is pure maths and "how to equip to become invincible". Honestly, at the moment Warframe (and especially "lategame"..) is either you die onehit or you live forever. And this has to be changed. You can't just pick random brainless troops, raise their stats to infinity and beyond and call it awesome lategame content. That's betrayal.

 

And to the topic.. Invis is completely broken. It should be removed from the game or be changed into only being able to turn complete invis when unseen and unalerted and invis turning into a bulletdistracting mechanic + enemies loosing track of you more easily in the heat of the combat.

Edited July 29, 2015 by Mippy

[Etherouge]

Basicly "buff ALL frames". OR we could nerv the one overpowered frame.

Nerfing a solid frame to match mediocre ones will leave everyone unsatisfied. If you want this game to be fun for everyone, all frames should be as great as Loki somehow. DE needs to be a little more creative in how each frame can be useful in multiple contexts. And I think one of the core problems stagnating the game's development is that there's not enough contexts (AKA enemies, maps, modes, etc.) to fill this creative order. In short, there's not enough niches in the game's design for all of these frames to fill.

[kleerr2]

Drawing enemy fire(Decoy), untargetable(Invisibility), fast travel (Switch Teleport), and taking away ranged weaponry+making enemies fight eachother(Irradiating Radial Disarm) will definetly get you far in nearly any situation.Im absolutely against nerfs of any-kind in a pve game, but if you say Loki is not OP compared to other frames you are lieing through your teeth mister!

[Sword_Symphony]

I just want Irradiating Disarm removed from the game. Loki doesn't need to be Nyx.  

[RealPandemonium]

 If you want this game to be fun for everyone, all frames should be as great as Loki somehow. 

I find the game much more fun when I actually have to react to what enemies do instead of shooting helpless targets.  Every time I drop into a mission and see enemies running around with batons I groan because now there's no semblance of challenge.

[GuyOnCrack]

Ah well, my mistake, he did say Prisma Skana.  This section still applies though:

 

Moving on:

Expect without in game numbers, most people believed that the P. Skana was better........ until people saw the numbers. You are thinking the mind set of people who know not of those who had no in game numbers to work on. Most people saw that with the Bright Purity the P, Skana would have more raw damage than the Dakra Prime, coupled with the stronger critical chance and critical damage.

 

Yes, now look at the effect you suggested. Everything dies......after 20 seconds. During which you can't do anything. These things are not exclusive from the effect, are they? And since there are inherent balancing factors to the powerful effect, and the effect itself, how can you call it OP? The effect has severe penalties to counter it's massive effect. "Being squishy" is not part of Radial Disarm. Long cast times are, but it is nowhere long enough to justify putting enemies at a permanent, crippling disadvantage. At least, that's what others seem to think. Like I said, I don't know or care to know more about Loki, because it simply hasn't affected me enough to form a proper opinion about it.

IF THE METHOD TO GET THE EFFECT IS IRRELEVANT IF THE EFFECT IS OP! DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND YOUR OWN ARGUMENT???

The method, which is 20 seconds of standing still is irrelevant because the effect, which is killing everything in a 50m radius, is OP. Your logic, not mine.

 

Veteran players should be more powerful than new players. Veteran players did not, however, earn the right to break the game. If something is OP, even if you worked hard to make it so, it should be brought to balance. This reminds me of a similar conversation with someone over a bug where hitting reload and using quick melee at the right time would instantly reload the clip (no, not Reload Animation Cancel.) According to him, you had a very small window of time to make it work, and it had to be perfect or your reload would take longer as you just stalled it. It also differed from weapon to weapon, and you had to practice to time it right for each seperately. It took a level of skill and practice, yes, but it allowed players to bypass one of the main limiting factors of guns in general. Reloading an empty Soma Prime in less than a second is not balanced. No matter how much skill and practice you put into it, it still isn't balanced. This is what I mean about player skill being irrelevant. Player skill is not a balancing factor. It can only affect application of effects, not the effects themselves. It doesn't matter if a new or vetran player broke it, it's broken.

So if a pro player in CS took an AK-47 and pretty much one shoted everyone because he learned how to pull off headshots really well, would that be consider OP?

And the example you bring up is a glitch in the game, not an actual system. Loki isn't a glitch nor are his abilities.

Do you know what OP is? You keep bring up things that aren't even close to OP and call them OP. So tell me, what is your definition of OP?

 

Your second question wasn't relevant.

Your third question was answered.

The dentist is the relevant authority on dental care, so of course I would ask a dentist about my dental state. This is where the similariy with what you said above ends. The relevant authorities are supposed to provide objective data on the current state of the object (my tooth) and porvide a proper assesment and alternatives, if needed. You're not going to go to a dentist and meet him at the counter and he tells you what he THINKS is wrong. He will examine the problem, identify the cause and provide alternatives and solutions, along with relevant information as needed. That isn't subjective.  The random guy on the street does not have the tools or the talent, but he can get the information. If you have a gaping cavity that's been bothering you for days and a swelling to the side of your face, I wouldn't have to be a dentist to tell you that it's most likely an abcess. It may not be an abcess, it could be something completely irrelevant to the cavity. The symptoms, however, are consistent with those of abcesses. That's not subjective.

Ok, since you want to keep bring up subjective and objective. Would you ask an artist to critique your artwork or a random bystander? You can only ask one.

Edited July 29, 2015 by GuyOnCrack

[GuyOnCrack]

Well a solution to said infinite scaling is to add more awareness/stack on different move sets and maybe add skills/enhance skills on stronger enemies. However that is very time consuming considering at xx level enemy y gains z effect/movement pattern/skill. Adding that to each and every enemy type would just be time consuming and that is just 1 added thing. It would have to scale further with levels. Considering its time consuming the easiest way is add xx HP/damage/armor every x level. That is much simpler and thats what warframe is. Its a means of difficulty since they last longer and do more damage allowing them to swarm you and effectively kill you in the blandest way possible. An OP power kinda counteracts the difficulty that it is meant to give. Which in turn defeats the purpose of warframes style of difficulty.

 

IMO lasting 2-3 hours is an achievement and worthy of doing something significant. (you can of course disagree with me there, but going where few choose not to go seems like something worthwhile) Because few want to waste that much time when they can do the same thing 2-3 times with an easier difficulty for the rewards sake. Though it may be called warframe the powers are really just meant to complement the weapons. Otherwise what is the point of weapons? it would pretty much mean that we are using powers 90% of the time. Warframes are pretty much what base defense suit you want with bonus powers. (the suit decides the HP/energy/armor etc) While the weapons sole purpose is to kill, warframes purpose is to assist and defend. (though that is just my interpretation) 

But yet we have enemies that are just randomly thrown into a faction without understanding how they complement the faction. Infested are my most hated faction because of the tar MOA's. They do damage with their tar pits but they also slow. Alone, this enemy doesn't sound like a problem but you also have a horde of infested on your &amp;#&#33;. I have been MOA stomp into a tar pit which made my standing up time slow but the tar also did damage which with the addition of a horde of infested. They are also infinitely scaling enemies. Maybe DE should go back and look at how the factions should be functioning rather than adding enemies into the game. And you said it yourself, it's the easiest way, and that leads to the blandest way of dying. The infested are a great place to start because I think they have the most stable platform to work with. But when the Ancients are more rampant that the Crawlers, that's an issue. Why are there more heavy units than the mob spawn units, that shouldn't be happening. Heavy units should be stronger but come out much much much less frequently.

 

Maybe you misunderstand me, I said Quote OP Endquote, not actually OP but something that makes us, the players, actually feel like we are the Tenno, feared across the galaxy for our amazing abilities. The Grineer have Grakatas mass produced and the Tenno can get one as well but in our hands that weak Grakata turns into a weapon of mass death. Most frames now are just complements to weapons but that's really not how it should be. The weapons should complement the frame. And we run into the opposite issue of what you're talking about, why bother having damage abilities when I can kill them faster with my gun. If we can get better skills that make you feel like the Tenno, then we can work on a energy system overhaul which would stop people from spamming skills. But the issue now is that the skills need to be spammed because most skills don't have a lasting effect or actually feel like their worth a damn alone.