Loki Is Just Too Strong

[Mr.Lube]

It's not Loki's fault that the late game revolves around CC, making Warframes based around doing damage useless.

[(PSN)Bowjangelz]

Loki's of WF unite! Quell this heretic!

 

But seriously: 

 

It's not Loki's fault that the late game revolves around CC, making Warframes based around doing damage useless.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Loki isn't the problem. The mods are what need nerfing.

[Mr.Lube]

Loki isn't the problem. The mods are what need nerfing.

I feel like Power efficiency mods are the the roots to so many problems in this game. Press 4 to win included.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

I feel like Power efficiency mods are the the roots to so many problems in this game. Press 4 to win included.

Duration and range mods can also be guilty.

[Dragazer]

Getting real tired of all these nerf threads. Loki isn't the problem here, its just that other Warframe abilities just scale so horribly into late game. and Loki does have drawbacks. His low durability makes toxic ancients and arson and toxic eximuses lethal even while invis. His heavy reliance on his energy makes magnetic procs dangerous for him because without energy he is as good as dead. Invis isn't as great as it was before. Melee bonus damage is lost upon contact with enemies. Enemies can track you when firing an unsuppressed weapon and possibly throw grenades at you. Also he is not very noob friendly. Low levels do not require much cc and utility and focus more on damage. Loki requires high end mods and good weapons to really shine due to lack of damage abilities. Even so, after disarming the enemies and going invis and then what? You still have to do the work of killing the enemies yourself. Honestly nerfing Loki is one of the worst things DE could do. Nerfing one of the few frames that is actually viable at high levels instead of buffing the weaker frames is ridiculous. Regarding the video, people have soloed it with Nyx and Valkyr.

 tl;dr: Loki isn't OP its just that Utility>Damage. Until damage frames get proper buffs to make them end game viable we dont need to talk about Loki nerfs.

Edited March 5, 2015 by Dragazer

[HandsomeSorcerer]

Loki's invisibility needs a nerf. I dont care about loki as I dont like him at all, but noobs who camp with him make the game unenjoyable.

[Mr.Lube]

Duration and range mods can also be guilty.

That is also a good point. 

[Flamed]

If every other Warframes powers scaled into high level, they would be just as good. Either way, building Power Duration to maximize Invisibility reduces his Power Range for his disarm. Adding power efficiency reduces the timer for invisibility. With one of the lowest Health and Shields, we shouldn't be nerfing his ability to survive.

 

He can easily get killed with aoe attacks such as bombers in T4, T4 Vor, Fire Exmius aoe, energy drain exmius, pre-nerf mutalist ospreys, and many more.

 

Also, he is the best at end game but at low level to mid level, there better frames out there such as Rhino and excalibur. From low to mid level, other frames can press 4 to clear an entire room while Loki cannot. The best examples would be extermination missions where people would often bring an Excalibur or a Nova.

[Dragazer]

To the OP, instead of just looking at the Warframe on paper, at least try to use it before calling it OP. I mean this is the feedback forum, it should be based on your experiences with the frame not just reading Warframe Wikia and watching videos. I mean honestly once you said, "Loki has NOTHING to hold him back." I knew something was off.

Edited March 5, 2015 by Dragazer

[Tymerc]

Something needs to be put in place for the upcoming Raids to stop Lokis from simply cheesing it by disarming enemies, then slaughtering them with stealth crits.

 

Since I cannot Solo Raids like I want to, I gotta play with others. I want a challenge, not level 80+ fodder poking me with a stick.

[climatiseur]

For people who said AGAIN just bring other frames on par, please suggest how can it be worked without giving them all a FOREVER disarming ability, or overpowered hard CC.

 

For people who said AGAIN he is easily killed by bombards etc, he has irradtiating disarm.

 

(Without long invisibility, actually other frames get killed much faster without disarm)

 

For people who said AGAIN he is too slow in killing things in low level.  This is NOT a true draw back. As long as you survive, you kill stuffs in the end nonetheless. It's just a matter of time. It just proves that what other frames you put only has one single super minor advantage over Loki - Killing stuffs faster - IN LOW LEVEL. 

Edited March 5, 2015 by climatiseur

[Dragazer]

For people who said AGAIN just bring other frames on par, please suggest how can it be worked without giving them all a FOREVER disarming ability, or overpowered hard CC.

 

For people who said AGAIN he is easily killed by bombards etc, he has irradtiating disarm.

 

(Without long invisibility, actually other frames get killed much faster without disarm)

 

For people who said AGAIN he is too slow in killing things in low level.  This is NOT a true draw back. As long as you survive, you kill stuffs in the end nonetheless. It's just a matter of time. It just proves that what other frames you put only has one single super minor advantage over Loki - Killing stuffs faster - IN LOW LEVEL. 

Doesn't need to be CC or disarming, just making damage abilities scale with high enemy levels.

Irradiating disarm has no effect on enemies in nullifier bubbles, and doesn't remove eximus powers or toxic ancient abilities. 

Yes its a draw back players need to rely more on weapons as Loki.

[(PSN)MrNishi]

Loki can kill with Radial Disarm, just very unwise to spec power strength on Radial Disarm.

Nonetheless it confuses people when on a low level alert and you are nuking a room with Loki.

*Not promoting a Power strength build with Loki*

[climatiseur]

Doesn't need to be CC or disarming, just making damage abilities scale with high enemy levels.

Irradiating disarm has no effect on enemies in nullifier bubbles, and doesn't remove eximus powers or toxic ancient abilities. 

Yes its a draw back players need to rely more on weapons as Loki.

 

Problem is, if all damage follows this route, they will be basically doing the same thing (too identical). And if they have different scaling percentage, they will need other effects to make a difference, which again comes in a circle. Even then, percentage damage is still far lack behind from the security given by disarming enemies forever . Unless your scaling means always 100% damage on enemies' health.

 

Nullifier affects all other frames. So does Eximus and Toxic ancient. This is a universal trait. Not the ability's draw back / limitation.

 

This game basically promotes the combination usage of weapons and abilities. A prone to using weapons to kill is a characteristics, not a draw back. Because ultimately you can successfully kill with weapons as long as you survived. Maybe it seems like a draw back to you, but not me. 

[Dragazer]

Problem is, if all damage follows this route, they will be basically doing the same thing (too identical). And if they have different scaling percentage, they will need other effects to make a difference, which again comes in a circle. Even then, percentage damage is still far lack behind from the security given by disarming enemies forever . Unless your scaling means always 100% damage on enemies' health.

 

Nullifier affects all other frames. So does Eximus and Toxic ancient. This is a universal trait. Not the ability's draw back / limitation.

 

This game basically promotes the combination usage of weapons and abilities. A prone to using weapons to kill is a characteristics, not a draw back. Because ultimately you can successfully kill with weapons as long as you survived. Maybe it seems like a draw back to you, but not me. 

Nullifiers are a bigger threat to Loki though due to his low durability and heavy reliance on abilities it may not be an exclusive weakness for disarm but it still is a weakness nonetheless. With Eximus and toxics, their AOE dmg can easily down a Loki at high levels.

Edited March 5, 2015 by Dragazer

[climatiseur]

Nullifiers are a bigger threat to Loki though due to his low durability and heavy reliance on abilities.With Eximus and toxics They're AOE dmg can easily down a Loki at high levels.

 

Indeed. So do other frames who has low health. This is a stats-wise characteristics. And again they give universal effects to all frames. What ever you are using, you will still be careful when facing this.  It does not nullify the problems from his 4th. It is not a limitation of his 4th.

[Tenno-nymous]

When pvp 2.0 comes out, then and only then should players whine about how OP a frame is compared to other frames of the same level.

Edited March 5, 2015 by tonx2

[NN13]

Which you have Irradiating Disarm for.

 

Anyway, please stop claiming that people have not played with Loki. It's incredibly easy to work around Invisibility's downside and the methods may be combined for maximum effectiveness.

If someone said Invisibility doesn't have a downside,its obvious to claim he didn't play with Loki or atleast didn't play enough with Loki.

 

Anyway,as for the augment,Irradiating disarm.....

 

There are other augments which excels at their job.

 

Did you use Iron Sharpnel for Rhino? Its a perfect augment to kill Nullifiers or CC nullifiers. Just go in and bang!

Did you use Seeking Shuriken for Ash? It can remove enemy armor completely.

Did you use Resonance for Banshee? It gives you and your team free Sonar as long as you aim.

Did you use Total Eclipse for Mirage? Most of us know what it can do,right?

Did you ever use both Total Eclipse and Hall of Malevolence on a Mirage? Try it. It's actually pretty OP.

Pilfering Swarm on Hydroid gives you 4x loot if you mod it for power strength.

Shield Transference on Mag means free overshield for you.

 

And this is what happens at high level gameplay with Irradiating Disarm...

Disarmed enemies->Enemies fight each other but do kill in one cast->Disarm recasted->Enemies again fight each other->This chain goes on for sometime and when next wave of enemies come in,you are out of energy......LOKI DEAD...

 

Irradiating Disarm may seem too good on pen and paper. But it's not too good. I agree that it is the best augment till now. It is good,but not too good.

 

And I will say this again - Loki is nothing without good weapons. He always relies on weapons.

For people who said AGAIN just bring other frames on par, please suggest how can it be worked without giving them all a FOREVER disarming ability, or overpowered hard CC.

 

For people who said AGAIN he is easily killed by bombards etc, he has irradtiating disarm.

 

(Without long invisibility, actually other frames get killed much faster without disarm)

 

For people who said AGAIN he is too slow in killing things in low level.  This is NOT a true draw back. As long as you survive, you kill stuffs in the end nonetheless. It's just a matter of time. It just proves that what other frames you put only has one single super minor advantage over Loki - Killing stuffs faster - IN LOW LEVEL. 

Since most of the people you are referring to is me,here are the counter arguments.

 

We are not the ones having unnecessary problems with Loki. And we don't care how other frames should be brought to it's level. Those people who are having problems with Loki are the ones that need to suggest how others can be as good. Our job is to defend Loki since we think he is in a good position.

 

Those people who say he has Irradiating disarm...Irradiating Disarm has a limited range,enemies bullets don't. Loki,being a squishy frame, can easily die from gunfire of enemies who are out of the range of Irradiating Disarm or just Radial Disarm. And loki doesn't just die from Bombards. He actually dies from all the enemies,not just Bombards.

 

(Without long Invisibility,actually many frames don't even die. Valkyr on Hysteria, Limbo on Riftwalk, Rhino on Iron Skin and Zephyr on Turbulence)

 

So some people are saying that "not being able to kill enemies at all" in a game revolving around killing hordes of enemies is not a true drawback?

Much irony...

As long as I can survive,I can kill stuff....Only if the stuffs have not been killed by Saryns and Excals with max range.....

[NN13]

Because balance is needed for a healthy game.

 

Besides, maintaining balance doesn't mean bugs are not demanded to be fixed. You have false assumption.

 

Let's buff radial disarm to affect whole map.

Let's buff all damage abilities to whole map and 1 shot kills.

Let's buff Trinity to taking 0 damage forever.

 

Because it is a PVE game! :D 

 

Seriously, all abilities need limitations. The examples you gave all have their limitations. If you fail to see that, there isn't much room for discussion.

No one has said to buff any ability. We are not idiots.

 

But people are trying to nerf things unnecessaily....And we are defending.

 

The examples he gave were not the limitations. They were the positive points of those powers. It seems you are having problems understanding things properly.

 

Trinity's first nerf was justified. She could make her whole team immune to damage for 28 seconds. Moreover,she could use a max range link,drop Blessing and bombards herself with any AoE weapon,killing all the enemies she is linked to.

 

But I am still against her second nerf. I have no idea why she can only heal a percentage of health. Being the only true medic in Warframe,she should be able to heal fully,but she should not be able to make her allies immune to damage.

Edited March 5, 2015 by NN13

[(XBOX)ShygalSadie]

Agreed loki is pretty much the best standalone frame, unless your absurdly good at dodging, frames like nova are slmost useless when soloing, and frames like rhino rely too much on iron skin, and nerfing loki isnt the anwser, buffing other frames is

[ByulSahn]

I'll put in my two cents as a heavy Loki-User:

1. Yes, Loki's two hallmark abilities invisibility and radial disarm are very strong, especially when maximized. However, both cannot be maximized at the same time. In reality, you will lose one or the other through maximization, with Radial Disarm range being pitifully small with maximized Invisibility and Invisibility being pitifully short (just barely enough to revive a downed teammate) if Radial Disarm is maximized. You can definitely try to "balance" out the build and try to simultaneously max it out, but then it becomes heavily inefficient, using more energy and time than necessary to achieve similar results.

2. Decoy is not a fail safe method of pulling aggro. Yes, it CAN draw a MAJORITY of aggro, but I can tell you from many personal experiences that decoy is not a fool proof way of drawing enemy fire away.

3. As many people mentioned, Loki's (and to an extent, Ash's) invisibility mechanics WAS changed; unless you can one shot enemies with melee, you will lose that multiplier, including on those enemies IN THE VICINITY. Also, weapons are no longer muffled and enemies can AND WILL shoot, crowd, and throw grenades at your relative position.

4. Radial Disarm in itself is a powerful tool, but its effectiveness is also VERY SITUATIONAL. Its an ability that excels in situations where enemies do not have to be killed off but just kept at bay, which includes INTERCEPTION and MOBILE DEFENSE. However, in missions such as SURVIVAL which requires enemies to be killed, Radial Disarm helps to ease enemy DPS, but does not make the game mode EASY; you absolutely need team DPS high enough to kill those units off, especially 30~40 min mark of TIV SURVIVAL (I have had many a time where the entire room of enemies would be disarmed, but my entire squad will go down for whatever reason). That also brings me to the next point of this ability: it is a TEAM CC. Yes, this ability definitely does make soloing easy, but many abilities in Warframe revolve around TEAMPLAY, the game itself being portrayed as a team based game as the Devs have said multiple times.

Yes, Loki has the capacity to be absolutely amazing, but it has very stark shortcomings. I can tell you from experience, the average Loki player will go down a good number of times. Even during this event, as a Loki player I went down numerous times and other Loki players I played with also went down a number of times. Loki is a frame that relies on a player's overall ability to assess the situation and to accordingly react to it. Yes, there are those that can solo it, but that does not mean ALL or even the AVERAGE Loki player can.

Also, about Irradiating disarm, it is affected by duration, so if you are using a maxed out Disarm Build, the radiation time is also pitifully short (shorter than your invisibility time). 

Edited March 5, 2015 by satoshikid

[CapedBaldy]

If someone said Invisibility doesn't have a downside,its obvious to claim he didn't play with Loki or atleast didn't play enough with Loki.

 

Anyway,as for the augment,Irradiating disarm.....

 

There are other augments which excels at their job.

 

Did you use Iron Sharpnel for Rhino? Its a perfect augment to kill Nullifiers or CC nullifiers. Just go in and bang!

Did you use Seeking Shuriken for Ash? It can remove enemy armor completely.

Did you use Resonance for Banshee? It gives you and your team free Sonar as long as you aim.

Did you use Total Eclipse for Mirage? Most of us know what it can do,right?

Did you ever use both Total Eclipse and Hall of Malevolence on a Mirage? Try it. It's actually pretty OP.

Pilfering Swarm on Hydroid gives you 4x loot if you mod it for power strength.

Shield Transference on Mag means free overshield for you.

Iron Shrapnel does not CC Nullifiers. It is however, a very good way to CC the other mobs in Nullifiers bubbles and a good way to reapply Iron Skin.

Seeking Shuriken I have never used, but I can see the potential. Pity it can be replaced with 4x Corrosive Projection and use Smoke Shadow as an alternative instead.

Resonance is nice, but ultimately a persistence and reliance buff for the base Sonar.

Total Eclipse is good, but the damage boost is hardly the best. Ember does the damage buff far better. The defensive buff for team is nice though. I've never combined Mirage's two augments, but I was under the impression that Hall of Mirrors is not affected by Total Eclipse. That's what my friend told me though.

Pilfering Swarm gives nice loot, I'll give you that.

Overshield is nice and all, but it has a rather low limit and all the downsides a regular shield has.

 

Still, why are we talking about other augments? Let's not get too sidetracked.

 

Loki is nigh-overpowered and I say that as someone who plays him fairly regularly. I have about 77 hours clocked on Loki, so I guess I can say some things about him if we're talking about playtime. I will say first that I don't agree to nerf him because currently enemies are unfair as hell, but it cannot be denied that he is ridiculously easy to play and ridiculously strong. All you have to do is stay invisible and use Irradiated Disarm and the fight goes fairly easy and safe. Better players can actually not get hit if they try to. The only real thing that's keeping him from being nerfed is his reliance on weaponry and inability to completely destroy anything in one go, but as long as he exists in such a state that can literally trivialize enemies (especially Grineer) into jokes, Warframe will be incredibly difficult to balance because enemies will have to be buffed to cheapness to even remotely challenge players.

 

EDIT: Oh yeah, my friend who constantly plays Loki uses Synoid Gammacor and has 400 energy restores to make sure he never runs out of energy. Energy is a pretty flimsy limiting mechanic, honestly. Look at Draco.

Edited March 5, 2015 by CapedBaldy

[Oranji]

Because balance is needed for a healthy game.

 

Besides, maintaining balance doesn't mean bugs are not demanded to be fixed. You have false assumption.

 

Let's buff radial disarm to affect whole map.

Let's buff all damage abilities to whole map and 1 shot kills.

Let's buff Trinity to taking 0 damage forever.

 

Because it is a PVE game! :D 

 

Seriously, all abilities need limitations. The examples you gave all have their limitations. If you fail to see that, there isn't much room for discussion.

I am being sarcastic on that post that I made. If you fail to see that then I don't get ur point.

[Rakosta_Kai]

Loki's invisibility needs a nerf. I dont care about loki as I dont like him at all, but noobs who camp with him make the game unenjoyable.

 

Good argument. Lets nerf the frame because you don't like the frame and players using one of its abilities 

 

You are throwing a non-sequitor. A logical fallacy. Mostly, trolls use such arguments to derail the discussion.

 

What I want is the invisibility ability of loki to be nerfed. His ability makes the game unplayable when somebody decides to camp and leech it out.

Not that it matters, but when I notice somebody is camping, im halfway through, I would cancel the mission but its a waste of time. If I wanted to play the game solo, I would. I dont want to feed leechers.

 

His "Trolling" ability has to be nerfed aswell even replaced or removed.

 

It's only a non-sequitur when the conclusion can't be arrived at logically...

Dragazer's conclusion is entirely logical since you directly asserted that reasoning.

Commentary designed only to incense potential readers is trolling.. That more aptly fits your own comments.

 

You've cited an incendiary opinion and targeted one specific frame when there are many frames with abilities that can be used for trolling.

Frost, Hydroid, Limbo, Loki, Mag, Nova, Nyx, Volt,  Valkyr, Vauban, and Zephyr all have abilities that remove full control of surrounding players movement or actions.

Perhaps, if you want to be fair, you should choose to address the impact of everyone's abilities as opposed to just one frame because you dislike it.

 

 

Yes, I don't use Loki in my account. Yet, I use him in my friends' account, not exclusively. He uses it quite heavily while I can gain a sight in it. We have totally different frames to use to avoid overlapping, and to enjoy all the frames with a less effort in both accounts. Besides, I don't think that proves anything. Using frequency does not equal to visions and opinions. You can know what's good for a football team / football player, but that doesn't mean you need to play as good as them isn't it? On the other hand, a football player who plays for long time, doesn't mean he must know better what's better.

 

Don't move to personal attack when you find no valid argument to counter. Please, gentleman.

 

Edited: I've quoted and made some other relies, yet it didn't show, guess I'll respond again in another post :S

 

If you admittedly don't use Loki, what makes you think you are a good judge for how he should work?

In your analogy, I'd argue that this is exactly the case...

Football players complained for years about the damage they were taking from short spaced games and concussions.

It's only when medical evidence became incontrovertible and reported widely in media outlets, that the NFL took it seriously.

 

Get your friend to post their opinions and findings as they are more relevant to this discussion.

 

FWIW, you aren't alone... Many of the comments being made in this thread advocating a Loki nerf aren't being made by people who actually play Loki exclusively, or in many cases, even have one.

 

People who live in glass houses... etc, etc.

Edited March 5, 2015 by Padre_Akais