Loki Is Just Too Strong

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

...i wouldn't even call him op rly. Invisibility is just a hell of a feature but he is missing out on a lotta dmg cause of that. The speed just supports the melee aspect. Survival is over the top. No question. But lets compare him to ash: what loki offers with radial disarm has ash with sheer dmg and armor-reduce.

I couldnt care less about loki in all honesty. But i'd wish for more speed and a equal efficient invisibility for ash.

[Dragazer]

Invisibility = Invulnerability in warframe because of AI that can't do anything against it. If you don't try to revive a teammate that decided to tank some bombards you will never die. You can fire completely unsilent weapons like Boltor Prime and enemies won't react at all.

It seems like people who want nerfs are people who don't even bother using the frame. Hope DE never listens to these kind of people. 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/252764-1390-13901-the-venka/

Changes:

• 13.8.1 Unlisted change: Enemies now have basic awareness on contact or sound of invisible units, and will investigate last known position of this sound/contact.  There are a number of threads bringing up issues/discussions with this that are being read and relayed, thank you for posting!

Edited March 7, 2015 by Dragazer

[dragonkingdx]

NERFING is not always balance. Nerfing Trinity from being Immortal was balance. Nerfing Trinity so that she can not heal her team mates fully is not balance.

 

You failed to grasp what we were discussing. Warframe will never be balanced as long as enemies are not balanced from ants on low levels to bullet sponges on high level.

 

This is the only reason why CC-only and healer frames suck at low level while they are the king and queen at high level. The opposite goes for damage-dealing frames.

 

Loki was never touched because Loki never needed to be touched. Unlike pre-nerf Trinity,which could essentially make her whole squad immortal,Loki has enough downsides to counter Invisibility and RD.

 

Nerfing is an ATTEMPT to bring balance. Just as much as buffing is. However players hate nerfs so they tend to ignore the fact that it does try to bring some form of balance. As for enemies there needs to be some level of difficulty otherwise its pointless to play. Many enemies are actually balanced quite well. However this fails to be the case when you choose to allow their levels to skyrocket by staying longer and longer. (if 80 mins was the same as 40 mins anyone could easily camp for hours and get rewards) The increase in durability/hp/damage is in itself balanced.

 

CC and healer types suck a lower levels? Really? consider this you had just compared lower lvl mobs to ants. Ants are easy to kill so what use are any of their abilities? (hell if you intend to go to higher lvls most likely the weapons you carry can poke and kill lower lvl mobs) Other than the fact that healers can help the random pugs who are still learning and CC can help manage things for them. I fail to see how them being useless at lower levels is even a argument.

 

Now onto loki. Lower lvls again simple enough RD no weapons and its a shooting gallery. You dont even need inivis for that. Mid levels the danger increases but still is turned trivial by RD, just a slightly more tanky shooting gallery. Invis would be used slightly to avoid any mishaps from freshly spawned enemies. Higher lvls are the bigger threat (but hey by this time it begins to threaten everyone except those with near invulnerability) It still formulates down to RD while being invis to shoot and help take out some enemies. We have a tanky unarmed mix up of enemies (nullifiers make it harder but w/e you know to kill those asap) You can still get hit by stray bullets from newly spawned enemies as well as AOE however if you keep them unarmed.  With RD the threats of that are minimized down to whatever is in the nullifiers shield and random arson eximus units/toxic units/KD from that random ancient aiming for another player. (and lets be honest that does happen a decent amount at 40+ mins due to overwhelming numbers however still smaller of a threat than those who do not have the means to avoid attention of enemy attacks) In no instance should you be standing still long enough to get surrounded for a melee frenzy. Heck smart lokis actually use decoy and ST to get to a safe area where they can disarm and provide assistance with their weapons which completely keeps the damage to an all time min.

 

You can still die from random bullets however you have the means to make that chance smaller with RD. You have a large energy pool (and if your using common sense large/med energy restores) so energy shouldn't be too great of an issue because even with multiple parasitic eximuses it still takes some time to go from 400+ energy to 0. (again easily combated by restores while invis in a semi safe location)

 

In the end loki's abilities allow him to scale indefinitely while avoiding (avoid does not mean invinc however avoid does mean greatly lessen) many types of damage for a lack of damage dealing skills. To you that may seem ideal however there always needs to be a limit to utility/scaling abilities. The limit is not by his squishiness or lack of damage dealing skills. (thats actually just paired with his support caster type role) There is no limit for his utility. Most warframes abilities fall off at some point or have some counter balance in it to make up for a lack of. Thats whats present to show some manner of difficulty.

Edited March 7, 2015 by dragonkingdx

[Kripion]

In my opinion Loki is perfectly made frame. He has everything, every skill I need in game. And this "everything" ist for free. He cant clear a wave in 1-2 ulti cast, he cant boost its range dmg and give a dmg boost for his party. He is a squishy one - sometimes one mistake costs you one respawn;p

But due to quite high difficulty curve its also really rewarding frame. Thats why I like my Loki. It fits my playstyle but at the same time forces me to pick weapons carefully and train my aiming and moveing skills.

 

Leave LOKI as it is. Give him nice invis aougment (best one would make invis drain ene constantly instead of forcing recasting every 30 sec). Look at frost and volt - those really  need some changes.

 

P.S. and Loki Prime is in my opinion best looking frame;p

Edited March 7, 2015 by Kripion

[NN13]

Nerfing is an ATTEMPT to bring balance. Just as much as buffing is. However players hate nerfs so they tend to ignore the fact that it does try to bring some form of balance. As for enemies there needs to be some level of difficulty otherwise its pointless to play. Many enemies are actually balanced quite well. However this fails to be the case when you choose to allow their levels to skyrocket by staying longer and longer. (if 80 mins was the same as 40 mins anyone could easily camp for hours and get rewards) The increase in durability/hp/damage is in itself balanced.

 

CC and healer types suck a lower levels? Really? consider this you had just compared lower lvl mobs to ants. Ants are easy to kill so what use are any of their abilities? (hell if you intend to go to higher lvls most likely the weapons you carry can poke and kill lower lvl mobs) Other than the fact that healers can help the random pugs who are still learning and CC can help manage things for them. I fail to see how them being useless at lower levels is even a argument.

 

Now onto loki. Lower lvls again simple enough RD no weapons and its a shooting gallery. You dont even need inivis for that. Mid levels the danger increases but still is turned trivial by RD, just a slightly more tanky shooting gallery. Invis would be used slightly to avoid any mishaps from freshly spawned enemies. Higher lvls are the bigger threat (but hey by this time it begins to threaten everyone except those with near invulnerability) It still formulates down to RD while being invis to shoot and help take out some enemies. We have a tanky unarmed mix up of enemies (nullifiers make it harder but w/e you know to kill those asap) You can still get hit by stray bullets from newly spawned enemies as well as AOE however if you keep them unarmed.  With RD the threats of that are minimized down to whatever is in the nullifiers shield and random arson eximus units/toxic units/KD from that random ancient aiming for another player. (and lets be honest that does happen a decent amount at 40+ mins due to overwhelming numbers however still smaller of a threat than those who do not have the means to avoid attention of enemy attacks) In no instance should you be standing still long enough to get surrounded for a melee frenzy. Heck smart lokis actually use decoy and ST to get to a safe area where they can disarm and provide assistance with their weapons which completely keeps the damage to an all time min.

 

You can still die from random bullets however you have the means to make that chance smaller with RD. You have a large energy pool (and if your using common sense large/med energy restores) so energy shouldn't be too great of an issue because even with multiple parasitic eximuses it still takes some time to go from 400+ energy to 0. (again easily combated by restores while invis in a semi safe location)

 

In the end loki's abilities allow him to scale indefinitely while avoiding (avoid does not mean invinc however avoid does mean greatly lessen) many types of damage for a lack of damage dealing skills. To you that may seem ideal however there always needs to be a limit to utility/scaling abilities. The limit is not by his squishiness or lack of damage dealing skills. (thats actually just paired with his support caster type role) There is no limit for his utility. Most warframes abilities fall off at some point or have some counter balance in it to make up for a lack of. Thats whats present to show some manner of difficulty.

I never said nerfing is not an attempt to balance. I said nerfing things unnecessarily is not balance. This should have been clear from Trinity's example that I followed my statement with. Please stop assuming things I didn't say.

 

Yes,CC-only and healers do suck at low-levels.

 

"Ants are easy to kill so what use are any of their abilities?" -> To kill them without using weapon,or if you have a low ranked weapon,or to kill them faster,or in general,just kill them. I don't understand what you were trying to say with this statement. Also,ants was an metaphorical comparison. So,lets continue our discussion on low level mobs and not on ants,right?

 

About helping random players......Thats just a special case. Stop considering special cases like this and Draco(as someone else used). Lets talk about playing for yourself and not helping anyone. You and your friend start playing a low-level mission. Your friend uses damage-dealing frame and you use Loki. So,how will you entertain yourself? Radial Disarm enemies? By the time you come out of the RD animation,the room has been cleared by your friend.

 

The very fact that Loki can be killed even when he is invisible and have disarmed enemies proves that Loki is not OP.  Just like Valkyr doesn't have access to ranged weapons when she is immune to damage during Hysteria.

Just a few hours ago,I played a T4D,upto 50 waves. I went down twice. Both the times,I disarmed every enemies and was shooting heavy gunners when a Bombard one-shotted me with their baton,because I wasn't fast enough while recasting Invisibility. That is the practical gameplay. Its not like I always fail to recast Invisibility every time. Its just that sometimes you just happen to be at the wrong place at the wrong time.

 

Actually,smart Lokis don't waste time with casting Decoys(which die with lesser bullets than Loki) and aiming with ST. Most of them just sprint forward to a safer location and recast Invisibility. But sometimes that fails.

 

"Most warframes abilities fall off at some point or have some counter balance in it to make up for a lack of."

We all know damage-dealing abilities fall off at some point.

But what counter balance do other CC-frames have which Loki doesnt? Please enlighten me.

[NN13]

 

It seems like people who want nerfs are people who don't even bother using the frame. Hope DE never listens to these kind of people. 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/252764-1390-13901-the-venka/

Changes:

• 13.8.1 Unlisted change: Enemies now have basic awareness on contact or sound of invisible units, and will investigate last known position of this sound/contact.  There are a number of threads bringing up issues/discussions with this that are being read and relayed, thank you for posting!

 

Thank you for taking the time to dig the info up. =)

[ZoneDymo]

I love that in that video the lower right were you see the energy etc is blurred out.

The fact that he can use his abilities that much without needing energy makes me believe something fishy is going on

[-InV-igo95862]

 

It seems like people who want nerfs are people who don't even bother using the frame. Hope DE never listens to these kind of people. 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/252764-1390-13901-the-venka/

Changes:

• 13.8.1 Unlisted change: Enemies now have basic awareness on contact or sound of invisible units, and will investigate last known position of this sound/contact.  There are a number of threads bringing up issues/discussions with this that are being read and relayed, thank you for posting!

 

 

Please test in game before making statements. Here is a quick video I just made of firing Boltor Prime from invisibility and not being hit once:

 

[(XBOX)Brennon Cook]

Those "S#&$ty" batons will 1 shot every WF in T4, btw.

[izzatuw]

Th fact that you killed most of the enemies before they could be aware of your presence in a few situations makes this vid hard to watch. If you didn't kill the scorpion she would've ran up to you and swing at you. But of course to prove your point you decided to pick on the enemies that wouldn't act stupid.

[-InV-igo95862]

I specifically quoted your post and underlined that you said that Eviscerator fired before cloak went off. In fact as you can see on slow motion recap that cloak went off first. As you can see enemies have no way to react to invisibility. Here is a video of me walking on top of enemies:

Under "react" I mean the ways enemies can counter it. Right now as it stand Invisibility = Invincibility. If enemies can't damage you you are invincible.

Edited July 29, 2015 by [DE]Danielle
Removed hidden quote

[izzatuw]

Shouldn't we just make the enemy AI smarter instead of nerfing Loki?

[SquirmyBurrito]

I specifically quoted your post and underlined that you said that Eviscerator fired before cloak went off. In fact as you can see on slow motion recap that cloak went off first. As you can see enemies have no way to react to invisibility. Here is a video of me walking on top of enemies:

Under "react" I mean the ways enemies can counter it. Right now as it stand Invisibility = Invincibility. If enemies can't damage you you are invincible.

 

I said no such thing and do not appreciate you lying. "And I guess you missed the fact that the Evicerator did a 180 to face you BEFORE you uncloaked. " I only said that he turned to face you, thus further supporting the idea that enemies actively track you while you're invisible.

[izzatuw]

Whats the point of turning if he won't shoot you. I thought that "180" means he shot me while turning around.

 

 

I was given this statement after I said "Invisibility = Invincibility". My video proves that nobody will shoot you if you are invisible meaning you are invincible as you took no damage.

Nobody would shoot you is sorta correct but nobody will twack you no. You killed the majority of melee enemies before they were even capable of reacting. Try Disarming a group of enemies and just shoot around but kill none of them, surprisingly they're pretty good.

[-InV-igo95862]

Nobody would shoot you is sorta correct but nobody will twack you no. You killed the majority of melee enemies before they were even capable of reacting. Try Disarming a group of enemies and just shoot around but kill none of them, surprisingly they're pretty good.

 

I want to see ranged units to shoot in the direction they heard you, heavy units using ground slam if they hear you near.... This way I would agree that invisibility has some downsides.

[Jeremythecookie]

Part of the problem with Irradiating Disarm is it makes Nyx obsolete because Loki becomes better than Nyx in every aspect : CC, mobility and survivability. I'm fine with Loki being strong. Oberon becomes completely irrelevant as well because all he offers is too "soft" and conditionnal.

[NN13]

Whats the point of turning if he won't shoot you. I thought that "180" means he shot me while turning around.

 

 

I was given this statement after I said "Invisibility = Invincibility". My video proves that nobody will shoot you if you are invisible meaning you are invincible as you took no damage.

"I was given this statement after I said "Invisibility = Invincibility"." Where? In which post? Who said it? I can't find a post saying that.

If you are referring to my post,I clearly underlined a line from your quote which is - "You can fire completely unsilent weapons like Boltor Prime and enemies won't react at all."

So tell me....Did you not see the enemies reacting to your gunfire? Or are you ignoring that part?

In case,you don't know...Reacting doesn't necessarily mean enemies have to shoot you when you are Invisible.

Your video proves nobody will shoot when you are Invisible. Now tell me the truth,did any one here say that enemies will shoot you when you are Invisible?

 

I am still giving you this statement "Invisibility =/= Invincibility". You are literally twisting situations.

 

Just so you understand clearly,

While you play solo,chances are you will never die while Invisibility is active. When you WILL die is when your Invisibility runs out in front of an enemy,which is what exactly happened.(Though you didn't die,you took a considerable amount of damage)

 

While playing in a squad,you can and will die many times even while Invisibility is active due to stray bullets hitting you.

The very fact that you can take damage even when Invisible proves that Invisibility =/= Invincibility.

 

You are essentially playing Solo while answering something in the context of playing in a team.

 

You know what Invincibility is? Valkyr's Hysteria and Limbo's Riftwalk. See the difference between these two abilities and Invisibility? Well,if you can't see the difference,I will just think you are ignorant and trying to troll around.

 

Also,another truth I would like to hear from you-

My previous post where I quoted myself says a few things about Loki. Do you agree that your video proves those points perfectly? Or do you still think it does not prove my points?

Edited March 8, 2015 by NN13

[420degreequicksopeswag]

i would much rather see the other frames buffed to lokis level than a loki nerf

[Rakosta_Kai]

 

It seems like people who want nerfs are people who don't even bother using the frame. Hope DE never listens to these kind of people. 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/252764-1390-13901-the-venka/

Changes:

• 13.8.1 Unlisted change: Enemies now have basic awareness on contact or sound of invisible units, and will investigate last known position of this sound/contact.  There are a number of threads bringing up issues/discussions with this that are being read and relayed, thank you for posting!

 

 

How do you think Frost lost duration on his Avalanche?

[SquirmyBurrito]

Whats the point of turning if he won't shoot you. I thought that "180" means he shot me while turning around.

 

 

I was given this statement after I said "Invisibility = Invincibility". My video proves that nobody will shoot you if you are invisible meaning you are invincible as you took no damage.

 

Turning means once your invisibility runs out he is in the perfect position to kill you. He doesn't have to turn around and aim at you.

 

You aren't invincible as you can take damage while invisible. Your own video featured at least one melee unit that tried to hit you.

 

I want to see ranged units to shoot in the direction they heard you, heavy units using ground slam if they hear you near.... This way I would agree that invisibility has some downsides.

 

That is a horrible idea. Loki being as squishy as he is would be hard pressed not to get downed in every single game. It would necessitate the use of Radial Disarm builds and/or silent weapons. Considering at higher levels a heavy unit's ground slam can oneshot a loki, I'd rather not have them start ground slamming whenever I happen to make a noise near them. Invisibility already has some downsides, and whether or not you're willing to admit they exist is of no concern of mine. I have played Loki more than enough to be made aware of his downsides.

[RealPandemonium]

You don't get energy restores for free, so that's more work needed. Hand this game (with all your top tier gear equipped) over to an inexperienced elderly person and I guarantee they lose 99% of the time. Coptering around is a quick way to end up in the wrong place and get yourself killed. You're taking skills gained from experience for granted. That kind of thinking is the reason some people can't understand why other people aren't good at games. My younger brothers are all absolute trash at anything that isn't Pokemon or Minecraft. I've tried getting them into other games, but they're horrible and eventually get frustrated and leave. I have also sat them down and let them play Warframe on my account with my top-tier gear and they STILL failed. In order for one of them to win I had to give them Rhino and stand over them repeatedly reminding them to re-equip Iron Skin. This was on Mercury.

You make a valid point, but In my view the most challenging regular (non-infinite) content (this is currently T4s and level 40ish enemies) should remain challenging, even for veteran players.  It shouldn't be "I worked hard so now everything is trivial."  Warframe endgame shouldn't be like a  "retirement."  Exploitable abilities should not be able to trivialize everything, regardless of how much you worked to get them.  At the same time, we should be able to expect to complete missions with minimal or no use of warframe powers (without relying on outlier weapons like Boltor Prime, Synoid, Soma, etc.)  The gap between powers and non-powers should be less.  Powers should offer alternative playstyles without invalidating other options.  Same with weapons, which currently do way more damage than they need to, to the point where the starter weapons top out at a reasonable point and everything after them is overkill.  We also need to do away with armor scaling and punitive damage numbers on enemies, as these only serve as bandaids for our excessive power.

[-InV-igo95862]

"I was given this statement after I said "Invisibility = Invincibility"." Where? In which post? Who said it? I can't find a post saying that.

If you are referring to my post,I clearly underlined a line from your quote which is - "You can fire completely unsilent weapons like Boltor Prime and enemies won't react at all."

So tell me....Did you not see the enemies reacting to your gunfire? Or are you ignoring that part?

In case,you don't know...Reacting doesn't necessarily mean enemies have to shoot you when you are Invisible.

Your video proves nobody will shoot when you are Invisible. Now tell me the truth,did any one here say that enemies will shoot you when you are Invisible?

 

I am still giving you this statement "Invisibility =/= Invincibility". You are literally twisting situations.

 

Just so you understand clearly,

While you play solo,chances are you will never die while Invisibility is active. When you WILL die is when your Invisibility runs out in front of an enemy,which is what exactly happened.(Though you didn't die,you took a considerable amount of damage)

 

While playing in a squad,you can and will die many times even while Invisibility is active due to stray bullets hitting you.

The very fact that you can take damage even when Invisible proves that Invisibility =/= Invincibility.

 

You are essentially playing Solo while answering something in the context of playing in a team.

 

You know what Invincibility is? Valkyr's Hysteria and Limbo's Riftwalk. See the difference between these two abilities and Invisibility? Well,if you can't see the difference,I will just think you are ignorant and trying to troll around.

 

Also,another truth I would like to hear from you-

My previous post where I quoted myself says a few things about Loki. Do you agree that your video proves those points perfectly? Or do you still think it does not prove my points?

 

Here:

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/411741-loki-is-just-too-strong/page-7#entry4567928

 

 

Hysteria and Riftwalk can also run out and you can die.

 

Under reaction I mean enemies should have a way to counter it. Right now ranged units don't do anything but running around.

[SquirmyBurrito]

You make a valid point, but In my view the most challenging regular (non-infinite) content (this is currently T4s and level 40ish enemies) should remain challenging, even for veteran players.  It shouldn't be "I worked hard so now everything is trivial."  Warframe endgame shouldn't be like a  "retirement."  Exploitable abilities should not be able to trivialize everything, regardless of how much you worked to get them.  At the same time, we should be able to expect to complete missions with minimal or no use of warframe powers (without relying on outlier weapons like Boltor Prime, Synoid, Soma, etc.)  The gap between powers and non-powers should be less.  Powers should offer alternative playstyles without invalidating other options.  Same with weapons, which currently do way more damage than they need to, to the point where the starter weapons top out at a reasonable point and everything after them is overkill.  We also need to do away with armor scaling and punitive damage numbers on enemies, as these only serve as bandaids for our excessive power.

 

I don't disagree with most of what you said. The bits I disagree with are mostly opinion based but I'll go ahead and underline it so it is known that I disagree.

[seth]

Loki is closes to design perfection and other frames should be like him because:

- all his skills are useable

- all skills work in synergy

- skills scale to all levels

- there is no contradiction between skills (example Saryn Miasma benefits from lowered duration, but Contagion doesn't)

[Dragazer]

Here:

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/411741-loki-is-just-too-strong/page-7#entry4567928

 

 

Hysteria and Riftwalk can also run out and you can die.

 

Under reaction I mean enemies should have a way to counter it. Right now ranged units don't do anything but running around.

Great reading comprehension. You do realize that I got that from the patchnotes right? https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/252764-1390-13901-the-venka/ First line under "Changes:" if you have trouble reading.

Regarding Hysteria and Riftwalk. You don't say? The difference between those 2 abilities and Invis is that they make you completely invulnerable. While with Invis you can still be hit by AOE, stray bullets, grenades, and as shown in your vid melee units. With rift walk and Hysteria you don't take any damage no matter what. Also in Limbo's case he can extend this invulnerability to his teammates and toggle it on and off as he pleases.   

Edited March 8, 2015 by Dragazer