Loki Is Just Too Strong

[Echowing]

Solution: Instead of nerfing Loki or other super CC frames, buff the other frame abilities so they scale to higher level missions.

 

Example: Make fireball deal X% of total health dmg to enemies higher than level Y with a burn DoT that deals Z% of total hp damage per sec.

At that point, there wouldn't really be any reason to have scaling enemies if our powers scaled right alongside them. I've always disliked the idea of endless scaling missions, and would really prefer a more focused and controlled enemy level curve. Loki himself isn't totally overpowered, although Disarm being permanent is extremely strong. Rather, as an endless mission goes on and the powers of other Warframes begin to fall off, his remain as powerful as ever.

[S7ORM]

His only way to survive is Radial Disarm and Invisibility. It makes him a bit mission specific. I wouldn't bring him on a Survival Mission but Spy Missions or Sabotage I sure would. I have my Loki Prime fully built and I just don't see how he is in need of a nerf.

You what?

You do realize that Survival and Defense missions are deadly past 60m without a Loki right?

He's THE goto frame for survival missions, especially, because in addition to disarming he can grab Life Support while invisible.

[ensignvidiot]

 

And I can't value the input of someone who thinks that this is a legitimate argument. We do not play in a vacuum. What another player does can affect everyone else. I don't know or care enough about Loki to join this debate, but saying someone's opinion on a frame affecting them doesn't matter because they haven't done it themselves is stupid, to say the least.

 

No, it isnt.

Take what everyone said about Trinity, Nova, Mesa, Mag, and Ember. The outcry of players that did NOT possess the frame, (and with it, the perspective of the other side of the argument) yelled and complained until each aforementioned frame suffered terrible overbalancing.

 

For Example:

Trinity

Everyone QQ'd about how they where just "enjoying their game" all nice and awesome while queued for public, and then a Duration-Blessing trinity came in and made them invincible for forever. And they where sad, because they couldnt die.

 

This caused so many aspects of the frame to get balanced, nerf, rebalanced, nerfed again, then shoved to the side to make room for Oberon.

 

The primary source of the people outcrying against 'Legacy Trinity', where people not in possession of the warframe itself. And as such, never utilized it in a high-risk-high-reward levels of gameplay (back then, 30 minute survivals)

 

To bring forth an argument that X should be gone. One must have experienced X in as many forms as possible. Having a singular View on a subject, narrows one's mind (and consequently debate points).

 

After you have experienced it, then state why you still feel whatever way you do.

 

 

Same thing for Loki.

 

Players that complain about Loki's very existance either:
A) Suffered the deadly Switch-Trollerport (which sucks, as there is no anti-troll mechanic like Limbo)

or

B) Feel themselves trivialized because the Loki player is doing what loki does best: Controlling the battlefield.

 

The frame is designed to direct enemy aggro (with decoy), isolate problematic high-threat enemies (with invisibility's stealth damage bonus, or switch teleport), Rescue allies (again, invisibility), pick off targets without putting himself in danger (combination of Decoy and invisibility), and reduce a possible Team-Killing amount of bullets to a manageble platoon of enemy meleeheads.

 

Losing guns doesn't make them dangerous, In the Law of Retribution, a heavy Grinneer's shockstick can one-shot most squish-frames. ALL enemy damage scales with their level, the disco-party-stick can very quickly become the Prod-Rod of Doom in high-level endgame content.

 

 

 

Loki's main strength, and what sets him apart from "Make it Dead" frames, is that all of his abilities are useful at ALL levels of gameplay. It doesnt matter if you are only MS1 and still rocking the damaged mods, Loki is useful. And after MS15, when you have all of the corrupted mods and you are Farming NIghtmare Trials, he is STILL useful.

 

All other frame's have a damage falloff due to them being damaged-based.

 

Loki is one of 3 utility Frames, frames designed to control the battlefield firstly, and deal damage secondly. Their ability to control the battlefield is what makes them seem overpowered and broken. But the true thing behind that is the ingenuity of the player playing them.

 

Yes, each of these frames can possible solo high-level content with the right build, but again... with the right build. This is after hours upon hours of farming content for the right mods and then leveling them. Sure you can skip the grind with plat, but thats what the paywall (or tradewall) is for in the first place.

 

Their balance is that they are hard to use on their own, as each requires you to have a very solid and powerful Load Out in order to survive any Endless Mission type.

 

Other frames, such as Ash, Excalibur, Frost, dont need to rely on their kit nearly as much to kill things.

 

If Loki loses his current strengths he will be useless at all levels of gameplay, and then you reduce a warframe and a prime to mere mastery-fodder.

Edited July 29, 2015 by [DE]Danielle

[fatpig84]

Loki is fine.

He is not overpowered.

 

IRD could use a tweak like adding a cool down, but most of the part he is fine.

Bear in mind he is the most mod dependent frame ever since his weapons will be the one doing the killing.

Not him, so his weapons need to be up to par.

 

That alone makes him more complicated to play.

[(XBOX)RIOTx420]

Loki is God , and my most used frame.

[Dillon_J]

Never really thought about it but yea.. he outclasses all frames currently.

[dragonkingdx]

IMHO (although I have probably stated this at one point or another in this thread *dang nekro monsters*) his RD needs to be nerfed a bit.

 

I would suggest that it would go in the same line as Excaliburs RB. Mostly because it works well and lasts long on weaker enemies however on stronger it lasts all of what maybe 3 secs? Then his utility works well and becomes weaker as the enemies become stronger without fully gimping the ability. (3-5 secs is more than enough time to take 3-4 normal/1-2 heavy enemies out in 60+ mins with excal and a gun) Since TBH that tweak with some of the skills and enemy resistance seems like a better balance then LOS crap. Well either that or just make it so you have to kill all affected enemies before you can use it again. (but meh people would complain about that more)

 

Though I was always a supporter of enemies that could detect loki/ash/anyone under kubrow/sentinel cloak when invis regardless. >.> sorta like the a holes of the groups that would be snipers. Because snipers are meant to have much higher perceptive abilities and aim regardless of the enemy type. (seriously you know that moment in games where a random sniper screws you over so badly that it makes you more perceptive about where they are and what type of enemy you are facing)

Edited July 23, 2015 by dragonkingdx

[BrazilianJoe]

 ~ snip ~

 

Players that complain about Loki's very existance either:

A) Suffered the deadly Switch-Trollerport (which sucks, as there is no anti-troll mechanic like Limbo)

or

B) Feel themselves trivialized because the Loki player is doing what loki does best: Controlling the battlefield.

 

The frame is designed to direct enemy aggro (with decoy), isolate problematic high-threat enemies (with invisibility's stealth damage bonus, or switch teleport), Rescue allies (again, invisibility), pick off targets without putting himself in danger (combination of Decoy and invisibility), and reduce a possible Team-Killing amount of bullets to a manageble platoon of enemy meleeheads.

 

Losing guns doesn't make them dangerous, In the Law of Retribution, a heavy Grinneer's shockstick can one-shot most squish-frames. ALL enemy damage scales with their level, the disco-party-stick can very quickly become the Prod-Rod of Doom in high-level endgame content.

 

 

 

Loki's main strength, and what sets him apart from "Make it Dead" frames, is that all of his abilities are useful at ALL levels of gameplay. It doesnt matter if you are only MS1 and still rocking the damaged mods, Loki is useful. And after MS15, when you have all of the corrupted mods and you are Farming NIghtmare Trials, he is STILL useful.

 

All other frame's have a damage falloff due to them being damaged-based.

 

Loki is one of 3 utility Frames, frames designed to control the battlefield firstly, and deal damage secondly. Their ability to control the battlefield is what makes them seem overpowered and broken. But the true thing behind that is the ingenuity of the player playing them.

 

Yes, each of these frames can possible solo high-level content with the right build, but again... with the right build. This is after hours upon hours of farming content for the right mods and then leveling them. Sure you can skip the grind with plat, but thats what the paywall (or tradewall) is for in the first place.

 

Their balance is that they are hard to use on their own, as each requires you to have a very solid and powerful Load Out in order to survive any Endless Mission type.

 

Other frames, such as Ash, Excalibur, Frost, dont need to rely on their kit nearly as much to kill things.

 

If Loki loses his current strengths he will be useless at all levels of gameplay, and then you reduce a warframe and a prime to mere mastery-fodder.

 ^ this.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

It never is. you need several to get a point across in ANY situation, regardless of what side of the fence you are on.

How so? How have you found him to be broken? What is your experience with this frame?

No, it isnt.

Take what everyone said about Trinity, Nova, Mesa, Mag, and Ember. The outcry of players that did NOT possess the frame, (and with it, the perspective of the other side of the argument) yelled and complained until each aforementioned frame suffered terrible overbalancing.

For Example:

Trinity

Everyone QQ'd about how they where just "enjoying their game" all nice and awesome while queued for public, and then a Duration-Blessing trinity came in and made them invincible for forever. And they where sad, because they couldnt die.

This caused so many aspects of the frame to get balanced, nerf, rebalanced, nerfed again, then shoved to the side to make room for Oberon.

The primary source of the people outcrying against 'Legacy Trinity', where people not in possession of the warframe itself. And as such, never utilized it in a high-risk-high-reward levels of gameplay (back then, 30 minute survivals)

To bring forth an argument that X should be gone. One must have experienced X in as many forms as possible. Having a singular View on a subject, narrows one's mind (and consequently debate points).

After you have experienced it, then state why you still feel whatever way you do.

Same thing for Loki.

Players that complain about Loki's very existance either:

A) Suffered the deadly Switch-Trollerport (which sucks, as there is no anti-troll mechanic like Limbo)

or

B) Feel themselves trivialized because the Loki player is doing what loki does best: Controlling the battlefield.

The frame is designed to direct enemy aggro (with decoy), isolate problematic high-threat enemies (with invisibility's stealth damage bonus, or switch teleport), Rescue allies (again, invisibility), pick off targets without putting himself in danger (combination of Decoy and invisibility), and reduce a possible Team-Killing amount of bullets to a manageble platoon of enemy meleeheads.

Losing guns doesn't make them dangerous, In the Law of Retribution, a heavy Grinneer's shockstick can one-shot most squish-frames. ALL enemy damage scales with their level, the disco-party-stick can very quickly become the Prod-Rod of Doom in high-level endgame content.

Loki's main strength, and what sets him apart from "Make it Dead" frames, is that all of his abilities are useful at ALL levels of gameplay. It doesnt matter if you are only MS1 and still rocking the damaged mods, Loki is useful. And after MS15, when you have all of the corrupted mods and you are Farming NIghtmare Trials, he is STILL useful.

All other frame's have a damage falloff due to them being damaged-based.

Loki is one of 3 utility Frames, frames designed to control the battlefield firstly, and deal damage secondly. Their ability to control the battlefield is what makes them seem overpowered and broken. But the true thing behind that is the ingenuity of the player playing them.

Yes, each of these frames can possible solo high-level content with the right build, but again... with the right build. This is after hours upon hours of farming content for the right mods and then leveling them. Sure you can skip the grind with plat, but thats what the paywall (or tradewall) is for in the first place.

Their balance is that they are hard to use on their own, as each requires you to have a very solid and powerful Load Out in order to survive any Endless Mission type.

Other frames, such as Ash, Excalibur, Frost, dont need to rely on their kit nearly as much to kill things.

If Loki loses his current strengths he will be useless at all levels of gameplay, and then you reduce a warframe and a prime to mere mastery-fodder.

The correct statement would be "he wouldn't be a exceptation anymore". Whats the aim of this whole thread.

I did a few examples on frames with the same potential he has. All of them have limits. Loki doesn't.

He floats above them all with higher to unlimited durations on his abilitys. Without a recast cap. Nothing.

[Malitias]

Well.. how about this.. make his invisibility a toggle-ability that has a base cost and then drains energy, but after attacking an enemy you have X*Power Duratoin seconds before the invisibility vanishes and you have to cast it anew. X should be between 3 and 5 seconds, I think. Since he'll be actually taking some hits, he would need his base shield and HP to be adjusted (100/100?).

Ofc Ash's invis would need a tweak as well then, but I think this is the general direction in which invis should be tweaked.

[AlphaHorseman]

It never is. you need several to get a point across in ANY situation, regardless of what side of the fence you are on.

 

 

How so? How have you found him to be broken? What is your experience with this frame?

 

 

No, it isnt.

Take what everyone said about Trinity, Nova, Mesa, Mag, and Ember. The outcry of players that did NOT possess the frame, (and with it, the perspective of the other side of the argument) yelled and complained until each aforementioned frame suffered terrible overbalancing.

 

For Example:

Trinity

Everyone QQ'd about how they where just "enjoying their game" all nice and awesome while queued for public, and then a Duration-Blessing trinity came in and made them invincible for forever. And they where sad, because they couldnt die.

 

This caused so many aspects of the frame to get balanced, nerf, rebalanced, nerfed again, then shoved to the side to make room for Oberon.

 

The primary source of the people outcrying against 'Legacy Trinity', where people not in possession of the warframe itself. And as such, never utilized it in a high-risk-high-reward levels of gameplay (back then, 30 minute survivals)

 

To bring forth an argument that X should be gone. One must have experienced X in as many forms as possible. Having a singular View on a subject, narrows one's mind (and consequently debate points).

 

After you have experienced it, then state why you still feel whatever way you do.

 

 

Same thing for Loki.

 

Players that complain about Loki's very existance either:

A) Suffered the deadly Switch-Trollerport (which sucks, as there is no anti-troll mechanic like Limbo)

or

B) Feel themselves trivialized because the Loki player is doing what loki does best: Controlling the battlefield.

 

The frame is designed to direct enemy aggro (with decoy), isolate problematic high-threat enemies (with invisibility's stealth damage bonus, or switch teleport), Rescue allies (again, invisibility), pick off targets without putting himself in danger (combination of Decoy and invisibility), and reduce a possible Team-Killing amount of bullets to a manageble platoon of enemy meleeheads.

 

Losing guns doesn't make them dangerous, In the Law of Retribution, a heavy Grinneer's shockstick can one-shot most squish-frames. ALL enemy damage scales with their level, the disco-party-stick can very quickly become the Prod-Rod of Doom in high-level endgame content.

 

 

 

Loki's main strength, and what sets him apart from "Make it Dead" frames, is that all of his abilities are useful at ALL levels of gameplay. It doesnt matter if you are only MS1 and still rocking the damaged mods, Loki is useful. And after MS15, when you have all of the corrupted mods and you are Farming NIghtmare Trials, he is STILL useful.

 

All other frame's have a damage falloff due to them being damaged-based.

 

Loki is one of 3 utility Frames, frames designed to control the battlefield firstly, and deal damage secondly. Their ability to control the battlefield is what makes them seem overpowered and broken. But the true thing behind that is the ingenuity of the player playing them.

 

Yes, each of these frames can possible solo high-level content with the right build, but again... with the right build. This is after hours upon hours of farming content for the right mods and then leveling them. Sure you can skip the grind with plat, but thats what the paywall (or tradewall) is for in the first place.

 

Their balance is that they are hard to use on their own, as each requires you to have a very solid and powerful Load Out in order to survive any Endless Mission type.

 

Other frames, such as Ash, Excalibur, Frost, dont need to rely on their kit nearly as much to kill things.

 

If Loki loses his current strengths he will be useless at all levels of gameplay, and then you reduce a warframe and a prime to mere mastery-fodder.

You, I like you, +1!

 

If anything, our other frames should strive to have such effectiveness, at all levels of play. Allowing all frames to Scale throughout content would be a far better route to nerfing one of the scale able frames in the game.

[husnielyas]

as a person who exclusively mains loki/loki prime his entire warframe playtime (since closed beta), I gotta agree, loki is just too damned good. as much cc or invis or aggro or trolling ability loki has, for me I think his base speed is the main reason I cant seem to play other frames. 

 

fyi, 38% and 35% run time for loki and loki prime currently. thats slightly more than 70% total. with his speed, i feel other frames are just too slow for me to get used to.

 

I practically solo-ed and team-played every game as a loki. I'm too comfortable with a loki that I feel I cant play any other frame. If a group wants me to run something else, I either say I can do it with a loki, or I leave the group.

 

BUT

 

you cant discount the time you need to build a loki. those high end mods that you got, chances are you didnt get it with loki. if youve played loki for as long as i have (and as extensively and exclusively too, ego on my part, cause i wanted to be "an advanced player" when i just started warframe, since they said loki was for advanced players lol), you'd understand why loki deserves to be that good. or "too strong" in your words. the pain it takes to actually PLAY loki, and not have your team kill for your loki or your other warframes get mods and level things for your loki, you wouldnt make these kind of claims.

 

from the replies you get, you can actually see whos jelly, who actually tried loki, who didnt and those who main loki.

 

if everyone feels a nerf for loki is needed, by all means. i gotta admit, i do feel loki is just too damned good that i refuse to play anything else for any content.

 

but in the meantime,

 

LOKI MASTER RACE :D

[Empiren]

So lets take a look at loki.

 

He can

A) Put up a small health decoy. 
-Useless mid-late game unless you glich it.

 

B) Switch teleport

-Trolling and limited mobility. Eh.

 

C) Go invisible

-So just him isn't targeted. I guess this is good for solo players but really.....eh. 

 

 

D) He can convert corpus/grineer to melee.

-Inneffective vs infested.

-Does no dmg.

====================

 

So really, his only issue is RD.

 

 

Which I like, but at the same time I could just cast a hard CC like Vauban's or Nyx and be done with it.

 

 

 

 

The fact that late-game you'd have to keep recasting RD because if one person so much as sneezes in Loki's direction he's dead, kind of makes up for the slightly better use RD gives.

====================================

Loki is not overly strong.

 

He has no damage abilities, low health, and only 2 utility abilities that scale.

This thread was clearly made by someone who doesn't own Loki. And that's clearly  due to the low playtime of the person, since loki is not hard to get. 
(Heck, he could have just made an alt account).

 

 

Well w/e, sorry for bumping it.

[ensignvidiot]

 

You are weak. You do X

X drops Y which makes you stronger

You keep doing X, And get tons of Ys

Eventually you get strong enough to tackle Z

The you repeat the process, doing Z to get W

Doing so enough times, you get strong enough to take on V

and so on

 

So if you take your kit after you've run thought the aphabet and are at "A-Level" content. And you take your "A-Class" kit back into an "X level mission" you will seem broken and overpowered.

 

Thats because you leveled yourself, your equipment, your whatever to be ready for A-Level content, everything else in comparison will seem like a joke.

 

A MS1 player playing Loki cant do perma invisibility. Heck, they likely dont even have energy siphon. A MS1 player cant even farm for Irradiating Disarm yet. And they will still likely trying to FIND core mods such as Continuity and Streamline, let alone trying to level it up.

 

Loki has the same Ceiling and restriction every warframe does: Player Progression.

 

Now, lets look at the non-warframe related Meta-Insane-Troll-Logic, because im bored. And you're fun.

 

So, to put forth an argument against anything, you have to experience it yourself? Apply that logic to literally any other situation and tell me how it makes sense. How about buffs? If you've never used a weapon or frame, how dare you ask for a buff? It's not like there are scales and numbers we can look at in objective ways to determine what's effective and what's not, right? What about mods? You can't say anything about Fleeting Expertise encouraging ability spam to the extreme if you play a duration frame and don't care about the meta!

 

It makes perfect sense. How can you complain about spamminess, if you never tried both halves of it: The Duration Rhino, and the Spam Rhino?

How can you complain about stealth until you take a full stealth modded kit, on a stealth warframe. Then tried the same on a Warframe NOT built for stealth

How can you have the perspective for what is, and is not broken for early game, when you have yet to use it for lategame content?

How can you even criticize all weapons in the game, unless you've built more guns than most have even tried.

 

That logic works flawlessly with any aspect of a videogame. Its (in my opinion) the best way to experience everything and to truly have perspective on as many aspects of the Origin System as possible.

 

Why not apply this to real life? How can you judge a murderer if you haven't murdered at least 10 people in various ways? You can't say that drugs are bad because you've never tried them, you hypocrite! Driving drunk? Pshh. You just haven't tried it in all it's different forms, what do you know? Arson is fun, why are you taking away my fun?

Or, or, or, these things affect people OTHER than the person using them, and whether it is in a negative or positive way, can provide feedback on their experience with the item in question? Nah, that would be reasonable! You don't want reasons, you just want Loki to be left alone..

 

Cool. real-life. Unnecessary transition, but ill run with it.

 

You see, you used the wrong "judged". One can be judged in a judicial system in any culture based on what the culture AS A WHOLE has determined to be acceptable to detrimental to the whole. Thats how a justice system that relies on peers work (the purpose of a Jury in an American Court)

 

Though, i could look at your comment from the otherside, and the logic that i apply strictly with videogames... works. How do i know a knife is the most effective weapon to take a life, if I've never used any other weapon?

How do i know how impaired i will be under the influence... if ive never imbibed?

There are several legal substances that recommend to NOT operate machinery or motor vehicles UNTIL YOU KNOW HOW THE DRUG EFFECTS YOU.

 

Now drugs... thats too general of a metaphor. It would have worked if OP said ALL frames are overpowered... but this is not the case.

 

For we are talking about the nuances of one warframe: Loki.

 

So you would need to pick one drug, and then off course one must experience its effect (i'm not condoning illicit drug use, im merely entertaining this thought experiment) to get idea of what it can do. As I said before, many Doctor-Prescribed substances require this "self-experiment" phase before you can adjust. It is a very real, and very actual thing that happens all around the world.

 

And yes, Arson is indeed fun, I enjoy firedancing and firespinning, but i ensure to do so reasonably; to light only the proper things (and occasionally myself) on fire during improv.

 

Ah, but that last line... "I ensure to do so reasonably" that there is the kicker.

 

Loki is a tool, as is all the other couple dozen frames we have. He has limits, he has abilities, he has strengths, he has weaknesses (they involve energy vamp eximi, nullifiers... oh, and lots of bullets) but it comes down to the player to use (or over/under use) his abilities.

 

Because of this, I feel he is balanced. While I may go for a balanced melee build (higher than normal duration and range, no excessive corrupted modding) someone else may wish to overspecialize one strength over everything else. Max duration kills range, so radial disarm suffers.

Oh, but he has no power-strength! so someone could:

 

Primed Flow

Primed Continuity

Narrow Minded

Constitution

Stretch

Over Extended

 

Boom, maxed range and Time. But wait... that leaves only 2 slots left. Do I sacrifice Survivability for Efficiency? Or go with Efficiency? Regardles of their choice, its their right as a Veteran to HAVE that option.. They put in the time. They got the gear. So now, let them be gods.

 

Could you imagine playing a D&D campaign, and painstakingly leveling your standard Rogue from 1 to 20, then getting told by everyone that, "You cant use those things that you rightfully got by living this long. Its too over powered. You shouldn't use them"? What would even be the point of rolling up the rogue, if at max level, everyone was going to stop you from doing things a level 20 rogue should be able to do?

[TheBrsrkr]

You are weak. You do X

X drops Y which makes you stronger

You keep doing X, And get tons of Ys

Eventually you get strong enough to tackle Z

The you repeat the process, doing Z to get W

Doing so enough times, you get strong enough to take on V

and so on

So if you take your kit after you've run thought the aphabet and are at "A-Level" cI can't say anything about it?ntent. And you take your "A-Class" kit back into an "X level mission" you will seem broken and overpowered.

Thats because you leveled yourself, your equipment, your whatever to be ready for A-Level content, everything else in comparison will seem like a joke.

A MS1 player playing Loki cant do perma invisibility. Heck, they likely dont even have energy siphon. A MS1 player cant even farm for Irradiating Disarm yet. And they will still likely trying to FIND core mods such as Continuity and Streamline, let alone trying to level it up.

Loki has the same Ceiling and restriction every warframe does: Player Progression.

Now, lets look at the non-warframe related Meta-Insane-Troll-Logic, because im bored. And you're fun.

It makes perfect sense. How can you complain about spamminess, if you never tried both halves of it: The Duration Rhino, and the Spam Rhino?

How can you complain about stealth until you take a full stealth modded kit, on a stealth warframe. Then tried the same on a Warframe NOT built for stealth

How can you have the perspective for what is, and is not broken for early game, when you have yet to use it for lategame content?

How can you even criticize all weapons in the game, unless you've built more guns than most have even tried.

That logic works flawlessly with any aspect of a videogame. Its (in my opinion) the best way to experience everything and to truly have perspective on as many aspects of the Origin System as possible.

Cool. real-life. Unnecessary transition, but ill run with it.

You see, you used the wrong "judged". One can be judged in a judicial system in any culture based on what the culture AS A WHOLE has determined to be acceptable to detrimental to the whole. Thats how a justice system that relies on peers work (the purpose of a Jury in an American Court)

Though, i could look at your comment from the otherside, and the logic that i apply strictly with videogames... works. How do i know a knife is the most effective weapon to take a life, if I've never used any other weapon?

How do i know how impaired i will be under the influence... if ive never imbibed?

There are several legal substances that recommend to NOT operate machinery or motor vehicles UNTIL YOU KNOW HOW THE DRUG EFFECTS YOU.

Now drugs... thats too general of a metaphor. It would have worked if OP said ALL frames are overpowered... but this is not the case.

For we are talking about the nuances of one warframe: Loki.

So you would need to pick one drug, and then off course one must experience its effect (i'm not condoning illicit drug use, im merely entertaining this thought experiment) to get idea of what it can do. As I said before, many Doctor-Prescribed substances require this "self-experiment" phase before you can adjust. It is a very real, and very actual thing that happens all around the world.

And yes, Arson is indeed fun, I enjoy firedancing and firespinning, but i ensure to do so reasonably; to light only the proper things (and occasionally myself) on fire during improv.

Ah, but that last line... "I ensure to do so reasonably" that there is the kicker.

Loki is a tool, as is all the other couple dozen frames we have. He has limits, he has abilities, he has strengths, he has weaknesses (they involve energy vamp eximi, nullifiers... oh, and lots of bullets) but it comes down to the player to use (or over/under use) his abilities.

Because of this, I feel he is balanced. While I may go for a balanced melee build (higher than normal duration and range, no excessive corrupted modding) someone else may wish to overspecialize one strength over everything else. Max duration kills range, so radial disarm suffers.

Oh, but he has no power-strength! so someone could:

Primed Flow

Primed Continuity

Narrow Minded

Constitution

Stretch

Over Extended

Boom, maxed range and Time. But wait... that leaves only 2 slots left. Do I sacrifice Survivability for Efficiency? Or go with Efficiency? Regardles of their choice, its their right as a Veteran to HAVE that option.. They put in the time. They got the gear. So now, let them be gods.

Could you imagine playing a D&D campaign, and painstakingly leveling your standard Rogue from 1 to 20, then getting told by everyone that, "You cant use those things that you rightfully got by living this long. Its too over powered. You shouldn't use them"? What would even be the point of rolling up the rogue, if at max level, everyone was going to stop you from doing things a level 20 rogue should be able to do?

The A level content are talking about here isn't Mercury, it's T4S. The hardest mode in the game. These abilities can trivialize it. No matter how hard you grind, how many things you get, the hardest thing in the game should not be EASY. That's exactly the problem here. We are not balanced around lvl 150+ enemies. We have the option to go there, but we're not designed to. We have a threshold. Anything too far beyond it will be brought behind, and everything too far behind it will be brought up. People keep using this argument and don't understand what they're talking about. If I go to Mercury with a fully Formad weapon, I don't really expect a challenge. Hell, I don't expect to get HIT. However, if I go to a T4S, I'm going to expect a challenge, something to fight for tooth and -

M3sa has joined the game.

Goddammit.

Now everyone has to sit around doing nothing for however long while Ms. 360 aimbot here sits on the pod spamming energy restores. It doesn't matter what mods you have or how hard you worked for them, you shouldn't be able to do something like that.

I can complain about the spamming because I have yo play with the fan Rhino, why is that so hard to understand? I don't care how much super special mods he found, or how long he had to grind for them. This is a co-op game, and we're not on separate missions. If he's stopping me from playing the game with a reasonable amount of challenge that the level was supposed to provide, I shouldn't complain? If enemy detection is hive mind or absolute suck whether I care about stealth or not, my opinion doesn't matter because I didn't pick one of TWO stealth based frames? The fact that most weapons are simply reskins of each other with different numbers and do nothing to stand out in the crowd means I have to grind for all the things I don't like? It is literally the worst way of dismissing criticism. I don't have to be an artist to know when art sucks, I don't have to be a chef to know when food sucks, and I certainly don't have to be a Loki to know Loki sucks.

Cool. Real life. Logic still applies here.

Some masterful mental gymnastic skills you have there, to both create straw men and miss the point at the same time!

Yes, murder is culturally unacceptable, for various reasons. Using your logic, one would have to murder people in various ways to judge a person for murder, because "you can't complain unless you see both sides of the story." See how that works? There are many more factors in play that ALL have to be accounted for besides experience.

Because there are other things that can be observed by the other weapons that can be compared with the knife to determine effectiveness. Such as a sword, which is longer, which lets me kill the guy from farther away. Or a gun, so I don't even have to be in the same room, or a drone, so I don't have to be In the same country! There are other factors than deadliness that have to be considered.

Firstly, fire dancing and fire spinning are not arson. Secondly, these things only affect you (when done correctly). In case you forgot, Warframe is a co-op game. You aren't the only one that matters. What you do affects them too, and if you affect everyone else negatively, it's a problem with you, not them.

If you're stupid enough to ignore scientific evidence that alcohol slows reaction time and increases lapses in judgement and attention, I don't know what to say to you.

That drug tirade doesn't even deserve an answer. You completely and wilfully missed the point.

Weaknesses that every frame in the game has are not methods of justification to his moveset. Using this same logic, M Prime should have infinite duration because Nova is squishy, sapping Eximi, nullifiers.....oh, and lots and lots of bullets. Chaos should be recast able for the same reasons. Those are not weaknesses to frames, but strengths to enemies. Also, you forgot that EVERY frame and EVERY ability is affected by those.

No one cares about how good or bad your mods are. It should not trivialise content.

Now, imagine in D&D, lvl20 Rouges got the ability to skip everyone's turn 4 times and cannot attack for 6 turns after that, while you get to attack three times per turn on each player. No one would allow you to play as a LCL 20 rouge, because that would be ridiculous.

[weezedog]

I still don't think invisibility should be complete invisibility 100% of the time (it's too easy mode), but more like the Predator's invisibility: completely invisible while stationary, reduced visibility to the enemy while moving.

[RealPandemonium]

Does no one else groan when they walk into a mission and all the enemies are using stun batons?  Might as well not even be any enemies at that point.  Even better if they're also MPrimed.  They should program an alarm clock into the game for these situations.  

[S0V3REiGN]

I still don't think invisibility should be complete invisibility 100% of the time (it's too easy mode), but more like the Predator's invisibility: completely invisible while stationary, reduced visibility to the enemy while moving.

 

On a frame that is basically made of glass, this will pretty much completely screw over Loki.

Edited July 24, 2015 by S0V3REiGN

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

The thing is how often do you see Loki in PUG runs? I see him about as much as any frame. Maybe he is most played in general because he is balanced with very few flaws (something that should be the goal of all frames). If he was so awesome you would see tons of players using him all the time. He is simply a well balanced frame with a slightly imbalanced augment.

So what if he is good at soloing stuff. If that is the reason to nerf, just about every frame is under the gun. I solo Capture missions on my Volt all the time. Should he get nerfed? I solo Exterminates on just about every frame.

Also if you're seriously upset about the 'master race' crap, I just have to laugh. Loki players only say that to get on easily agitated people's nerves.

The dropprate for the system is still a joke and a set sells for around 200p even after years.

The prime version is hard to get and loki himself feels kinda boring after you have some kind of struggle with other frames. I kinda ignore valkyr for the same reason. A Frame that needs somewhat skill to play but is just as strong, even or especially on a nonhysteria build, without a key function.

But when was the last time you haven't seen a veteran player who doesn't pick loki on a regular base for random mission, tactical alerts or endless runs if somehow possible?

The "master race" bull just shows what they are, trolls, deaf to facts. This thread is 16 pages long and there was like a single loki main that actually agreed that loki is hella overpowered. This draws a quite the sad picture.

He NEEDS limits. Cause

*Evry other frame in the game, including the ones with a similar base have them

*And cause the only arguments against this step come down to a sheer loss of convinience.

Edited July 24, 2015 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[S0V3REiGN]

Loki isn't that easy to get. The dropprate for the system is still a joke and a set sells for around 200p even after years.

The prime version is hard to get and loki himself feels kinds boring after you have some kind of struggle with other frames. I kinda ignore valkyr for the same reason. A Frame that needs somewhat skill to play but just as strong, even or especially on a nonhysteria build, without a key function.

But when was the last time you haven't seen a veteran player who doesn't pick loki on a regular base for random mission, tactical alerts or endless runs if somehow possible?

The "master race" bull just shows what they are, trolls, deaf to facts. This thread is 16 pages long and there was like a single loki main that actually agreed that loki is hella overpowered. This draws a quite the sad picture.

He NEEDS limits. Cause

*Evry other frame in the game, including the ones with a similar base have them

*And cause the only arguments against this step come down to a sheer loss of convinience.

 

 

I also love when players that have never used a frame like to make comments on how that frame should be nerfed. May be those players that actually use the frame know  A LOT more about it and its weaknesses than those that never use it and are demanding the nerf hammer to turn it into mastery fodder. 

[RealPandemonium]

I also love when players that have never used a frame like to make comments on how that frame should be nerfed. May be those players that actually use the frame know  A LOT more about it and its weaknesses than those that never use it and are demanding the nerf hammer to turn it into mastery fodder. 

Rest assured, I have slept through content with Loki as much as the next guy.  Well, not quite as much as him because I found it distasteful and moved on to something else.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

I also love when players that have never used a frame like to make comments on how that frame should be nerfed. May be those players that actually use the frame know A LOT more about it and its weaknesses than those that never use it and are demanding the nerf hammer to turn it into mastery fodder.

Evry frame except loki would be mastery fodder by that logic.

Thats why we have a balance in the game, so NO frame becomes mastery fodder on the long run. That's why people ask for buffs. That's why people ask for nerfs as well. And that's the reason this thread exists.

Giving loki a timer, max enemy counter (affected by power strength) and/or recast lock on his RD(lock and counter just as well exclusive to ID) wouldn't break but definitly balance him.

Edited July 24, 2015 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[IfritKajiTora]

Lets nerf Loki by the easiest way we can.

All frames should need Power duration range and strength.
Right now Loki dont need strength so everyone just ignore it and add Overextended mod to make Radial Disarm as a huge AoE ability.

Radial Disarm Nerf:
Enemies are Disarmed for 20 seconds and its affected by Power strength. (Signal of making weapons useless now will have duration and Power strength make the signal stronger so it takes a longer time the weapons dont work)

Invisibility Nerf:

Just like with Ember World on fire. Cost energy on use, ability ON-OFF. have its own Duration limit and it drains energy per second.
Duration 12 seconds. 25 energy cost on use. 5energy drain per second.

Decoy:
Power strength should affect decoy, by how many hits it can take.

 

So with that Loki will need to have: Duration, range and strength. Just like it should be. No OP invisibility that you just spam over and over because before invisibility turn off you got all energy back or even more so you can use it just like that. Now it will drain energy per second so it will be hard to use over and over Invisibility without risk.

[Rayden_Tenno]

loki is a good frame, a great frame, an endgame frame, but its so damn squishy. Any enemy can down him from like 2-3 blows, or one if you're in raid. He doesnt need a nerf, he could use a buff in its armor though, but he is balanced this way.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

loki is a good frame, a great frame, an endgame frame, but its so damn squishy. Any enemy can down him from like 2-3 blows, or one if you're in raid. He doesnt need a nerf, he could use a buff in its armor though, but he is balanced this way.

90% of the frames are squishy and don't have a ability that basicly disables the targeting on them. This ability is all right. His ultimate is just a goddamn mess.