Anti-Afk Is Targeting A Symptom And Not The Cause Of The Problem

[Jax_Cavalera]

This is pretty simple and it applies to a majority of aspects surrounding the recent nerf trends since Viver.

Anti-AFK is trying to target macro farmers but here is the thing, it hurts all human players since we are not able to accurately calculate how long 120 seconds takes to pass to know when to move again if our tactic in a Defense mission or Excavation requires us to take point on the objective which can last over 120 seconds to clear.

Guess who this benefits?? That's correct!! The players using a Macro Script that moves their character the required distance every 119 seconds and thus circumvents the system aimed at stopping them!!

So how do we make Macro Farmers Stop?

The answer is so simple I'm curious why it is not being talked about more.

1. Remove a need or viable usage of using macro scripts to obtain every single reward the game has to offer.

2. Stop attaching XP, Resources and Rewards to a system based on kills and instead reward players with these things based on skill.

3. Boost the drop count from breakables and lockers in missions to allow players opportunity to gain extra if they seek out the loot during a mission.

What I am describing are the foundational aspects to Tactic Selections :

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/383582-tactic-selections-putting-a-stop-to-macro-farming-rng-and-grind-walls/?hl=%20tactic%20%20selection

Until a connection is acknowledged between the current system of awarding XP and Rewards based on Kills...REAL Warframe gameplay will never look similar to the cinematics and promotional footage of the game because if you play it like that with current mechanics you won't progress very far anytime soon..if ever..

We need to help bring this issue to light and realise there are better ways of handling an mmo than awarding based on genocide. Imagine if warframe rewarded based on skills!!!

Edited March 14, 2015 by Jax_Cavalera

[RadiantProxy]

I like the idea about rewarding exploration. (There are rare loot crates, but they are way too rare.)

But what would you call 'skill'? There is a 'skill-o-meter' in our ingame profiles, in the Stats tab. Nobody knows how it is calculated, though...

[Jax_Cavalera]

Skill to me is defined as being adept in certain aspects of gameplay such as parkour, stealth, melee expert, sidearm expert, dead accuracy headshots, understanding a frames full skill-set to the extent where you excell and perform moves that combine multiple abilities with other game elements like weapons etc as a few areas that skill can be exemplified.

[Marthrym]

Many have been repeating this for quite some time now.

 

Nothing's changed. At least not in that direction.

 

Fingers crossed anyway. +1

[YamiNaoya]

There are games that award more XP when the player shows his skills, for example Bulletstorm or NecroVision - both games reward player bonus XP points for creative carnage. XP multiplier for stealth kills is very good example of how could it work and actually gives enough reason to bother (leveling melee weapons has never been so much fun for me). Maybe something like XP bonus for killing enemies when sliding, wall runing, headshots or even kills from distance (for snipers) would be enough (along with maybe increasing chance for mod-resource drops). Of course bonus XP should depend on performed action (headshots may be easier to do than killing enemies from the wall).

Edited March 16, 2015 by YamiNaoya

[Kravik]

granted this is getting a bit off topic i might just make a separate thread

 

what about rewards for more support oriented players? as a long time banshee player, it can get difficult when events pop up where you have to get a certain number of kills. mostly because the abilities banshee has is related to support ie stuns, knockbacks, and damage buffs. it could be classified as assists or something.

[Jax_Cavalera]

There are games that award more XP when the player shows his skills, for example Bulletstorm or NecroVision - both games reward player bonus XP points for creative carnage. XP multiplier for stealth kills is very good example of how could it work and actually gives enough reason to bother (leveling melee weapons has never been so much fun for me). Maybe something like XP bonus for killing enemies when sliding, wall runing, headshots or even kills from distance (for snipers) would be enough (along with maybe increasing chance for mod-resource drops). Of course bonus XP should depend on performed action (headshots may be easier to do than killing enemies from the wall).

 

Totally, in the topic regarding Tactic Selections it touches on this a little with the label of "Skill Kills" or "Way of the Shinobi"  a decided name is yet to be set in stone though the principle is the same and yes a lot of players would be on board with this concept I believe.  Some of the ideas so far suggested can be found in the topic : https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/383582-tactic-selections-putting-a-stop-to-macro-farming-rng-and-grind-walls/?hl=%20tactic%20%20selection  Near the bottom of the Opening Post.

 

granted this is getting a bit off topic i might just make a separate thread

 

what about rewards for more support oriented players? as a long time banshee player, it can get difficult when events pop up where you have to get a certain number of kills. mostly because the abilities banshee has is related to support ie stuns, knockbacks, and damage buffs. it could be classified as assists or something.

 

I agree with this approach as well, I would really like to see tactic selections that require specific types of frames who often do the support roles to be getting rewarded or be required to qualify for a tactical reliance by doing what they do best in that mission type.  Kill Assists in general are a good idea too and whilst there is a stat for this in the menus, it isn't really considered towards kills for sub-objectives that each player gets at the start of the main mission.

[rockscl]

So how do we make Macro Farmers Stop?

The answer is so simple I'm curious why it is not being talked about more.

1. Remove a need or viable usage of using macro scripts to obtain every single reward the game has to offer.

2. Stop attaching XP, Resources and Rewards to a system based on kills and instead reward players with these things based on skill.

3. Boost the drop count from breakables and lockers in missions to allow players opportunity to gain extra if they seek out the loot during a mission.

 

I like it, some suggestions

1 reduce a lot the normal exp and drops on mobs, so mass murdering plus the following points give a reasonable amount of rewards

 

2 Give much better drop chances for enemies that received headshots, weak spot hits and such, finishers, stealth kills, fire from wallruns and jumps

 

3 Give a little better drop chances for enemies that where killed by abilities that affected more than x enemies, being X based in the abilitys potential, so radials nukes that are used to kill 2 mobs hidden around dont reward the user with more loot and exp

 

4 Give a little better drop chances for enemies that where killed under the effect of abilities

 

5 Give even better drop chances for enemies that received headshots from snipers and bows

 

6 increase exp gained at end of mission based on weapon accuracy

 

7 increase exp gained at end of mission by damage mitigated by shields, rolling, and enemy accuracy reduced by parkour

 

8 increase exp gained at end of mission by healing granted to allies

 

the reduction and increase in rewards should be subtle, but able to match the current rewards and also allow for a increased reward for players that dedicated to make the mission with precission and efficiency

 

 

Also, about what we mean by skills, i made a topic trying to make a common spot about this, always with the hope of making the "skills" conversation a more clear discussion, heres the link:

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/416802-for-a-skillfull-endgame-a-small-analysis-about-analogic-skills-and-ingame-mechanics/#entry4614424

Edited March 16, 2015 by rockscl

[Fifield]

RockSci, our posts crossed but we're thinking along the same lines.
 

Skill to me is defined as being adept in certain aspects of gameplay such as parkour, stealth, melee expert, sidearm expert, dead accuracy headshots, understanding a frames full skill-set to the extent where you excell and perform moves that combine multiple abilities with other game elements like weapons etc as a few areas that skill can be exemplified.

 

I agree with you but how does DE reward those skills?  

We have Spy 2.0 largely for stealth/parkour but that's one of 19 missions.  Before jump-slash, I heard you had to use parkour or a particular to reach secret rooms in the Void.

Instead of random affinity bonus quests, the game could give affinity & credit bonuses for getting kills/doing damage with each weapon (reward given in-game).  Likewise, headshot rewards.

This is unworkable but if the game recorded the action and you could review it after the mission, you'd volunteer your coolest moment and players would vote which is the best.

Edited March 16, 2015 by Fifield

[HurpadurpusRex]

This is pretty simple and it applies to a majority of aspects surrounding the recent nerf trends since Viver.

Anti-AFK is trying to target macro farmers but here is the thing, it hurts all human players since we are not able to accurately calculate how long 120 seconds takes to pass to know when to move again if our tactic in a Defense mission or Excavation requires us to take point on the objective which can last over 120 seconds to clear.

Guess who this benefits?? That's correct!! The players using a Macro Script that moves their character the required distance every 119 seconds and thus circumvents the system aimed at stopping them!!

So how do we make Macro Farmers Stop?

The answer is so simple I'm curious why it is not being talked about more.

1. Remove a need or viable usage of using macro scripts to obtain every single reward the game has to offer.

2. Stop attaching XP, Resources and Rewards to a system based on kills and instead reward players with these things based on skill.

3. Boost the drop count from breakables and lockers in missions to allow players opportunity to gain extra if they seek out the loot during a mission.

What I am describing are the foundational aspects to Tactic Selections :

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/383582-tactic-selections-putting-a-stop-to-macro-farming-rng-and-grind-walls/?hl=%20tactic%20%20selection

Until a connection is acknowledged between the current system of awarding XP and Rewards based on Kills...REAL Warframe gameplay will never look similar to the cinematics and promotional footage of the game because if you play it like that with current mechanics you won't progress very far anytime soon..if ever..

We need to help bring this issue to light and realise there are better ways of handling an mmo than awarding based on genocide. Imagine if warframe rewarded based on skills!!!

I avoid public matches because the players lack skill. The less skill and intelligence a player has the more likely they are to throw money at the game developers; and as they are the ones keeping this free to play for me I am not in favor of making this game require more skill. Though i wish i could be as i would enjoy that.

 

I am partly in favor of the shifts you suggest though. I would love to see a increase in the loot dropped from containers at the expense of the loot droped from kills. The scale if this shift would be best decided by employees with access to player statistics.

 

I think in the spirit of your idea core drops could be removed from enemy drops under level 30, and inceased for enemies over level 30. Mods can be leveled well enough using other mods untill rank 7, which is enough to gain entery to level 30 gameplay. The more advanced enemies that prevent immobility tend to spawn with DPS worth considering if your immobile around that point. And if early game core duress was felt it could easily be addressed by adding it to objective rewards.

 

I dont know what DE will release in a years time though so I'm not to concerned right now. I'm just glad they reduced the sharp influx of resources in the immidiate.

 

so we may not be on the same page but we are likely on the same chapter.

[Jax_Cavalera]

Hey guys I'm really excited to see that this is provoking more thought into the driving cause of the problem instead of looking at band-aid fixes which address a face element only.  

 

I like it, some suggestions

1 reduce a lot the normal exp and drops on mobs, so mass murdering plus the following points give a reasonable amount of rewards

 

2 Give much better drop chances for enemies that received headshots, weak spot hits and such, finishers, stealth kills, fire from wallruns and jumps

 

3 Give a little better drop chances for enemies that where killed by abilities that affected more than x enemies, being X based in the abilitys potential, so radials nukes that are used to kill 2 mobs hidden around dont reward the user with more loot and exp

 

4 Give a little better drop chances for enemies that where killed under the effect of abilities

 

5 Give even better drop chances for enemies that received headshots from snipers and bows

 

6 increase exp gained at end of mission based on weapon accuracy

 

7 increase exp gained at end of mission by damage mitigated by shields, rolling, and enemy accuracy reduced by parkour

 

8 increase exp gained at end of mission by healing granted to allies

 

the reduction and increase in rewards should be subtle, but able to match the current rewards and also allow for a increased reward for players that dedicated to make the mission with precission and efficiency

 

 

Also, about what we mean by skills, i made a topic trying to make a common spot about this, always with the hope of making the "skills" conversation a more clear discussion, heres the link:

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/416802-for-a-skillfull-endgame-a-small-analysis-about-analogic-skills-and-ingame-mechanics/#entry4614424

 

The one thing that I would caution is the dependence on an quantity of kills for rewards.  The concept of bonus rewards based on how the kill was made is very interesting.

 

RockSci, our posts crossed but we're thinking along the same lines.
 

 

I agree with you but how does DE reward those skills?  

We have Spy 2.0 largely for stealth/parkour but that's one of 19 missions.  Before jump-slash, I heard you had to use parkour or a particular to reach secret rooms in the Void.

Instead of random affinity bonus quests, the game could give affinity & credit bonuses for getting kills/doing damage with each weapon (reward given in-game).  Likewise, headshot rewards.

This is unworkable but if the game recorded the action and you could review it after the mission, you'd volunteer your coolest moment and players would vote which is the best.

 

I think that this concept is very close to the resulting idea that was formed by a portion of the community and I have just been calling it Tactical Selections so it is easier to reference.  This is a part about it which aims to provide a possible scenario regarding how DE would reward players based on skills instead of kills (unintentional rhyme.. heard it as I typed it lol) :

 

How does Tactic Selections Work?

1. At the start of a Mission, the Squad vote on a Tactic from the list of options specific to their desired Node.

- Hosts vote counts for 2 points and Clients count as 1 point so there is a tie-breaker with preference going to the player that is supplying the key/hosting the squad session.

2. The mission starts up like normal with a slight tweak to the UI/HUD :

- A percentage value is displayed to give the player an indication of how much of the mission so far has been completed using their chosen tactic. *If it were Stealth, then each time they are spotted by enemies, this percentage would be lowered*

- Text that displays the chosen tactic is also shown in a visible area of the UI/HUD so all party members can see what approach they are meant to be using.

- Possible Upgrade could be that each time a player performs an action that may cause their percentage to lower a Red warning flashes near where the Chosen Tactic is being Displayed on the UI/HUD.

*Primaries Only, player takes out their secondary weapon and they see the Red warning flashing till they put it away* Stealth, player takes out a weapon that is not silent and the warning flashes.

3. On Claim/Extraction the Squad gain XP & Rewards based on what percentage of a mission was completed using the selected Tactic.

- XP for kills would be removed from the game as this will resolve the problem of trying to Micro Balance every new element added to the game and how it can potentially unbalance a previously well balanced ecosystem.

- No longer would mass murder be the only way to advance the quickest in this game.

- XP would be different for every Tactic and would be balanced based on statistics gathered over time dynamically adjusting.
e.g :

* figures may not reflect the reality but are just as an example *: 

Stealth Tactic on a node takes 2 Minutes to complete the mission on average.
Abilities Only Tactic on the same node takes 1 Minute to complete the mission on average.

Stealth Tactic would reward 2x the Experience Points per run since you can complete Abilities Only Tactic twice in the same time you can complete Stealth Tactic once.

- Completing a mission with less than a 50% Tactic Reliance would result in not receiving the bonus reward.
e.g :

If the mission normally awarded 10,000 xp per run and the squad/solo player only achieved a 25% Tactic Reliance they would walk away with 2500 xp and no reward (special mod, prime part, blueprint etc..)

4. Each Tactic would provide a unique Bonus Reward

- To receive all possible Bonus Rewards (Prime Parts, Rare Mods, Blueprints etc..) a player would need to complete each tactic option with over 50% Tactic Reliance.

- By splitting possible mission/node rewards up this way we can eliminate the RNG Casino Element out of Warframe without hurting Plat Sales since players will still use Platinum Purchases/Trades to obtain rewards that they can't get from various Tactics they find too challenging to complete for any number of reasons :

(no gear that is stealthy except a weak skana, no strong primary or secondary, unranked frames with poor low tier abilities in the context of the mission, incorrect frames unsuitable for the type of mission which has abilities only as a tactic etc..)

5. Instead of rewarding players with Rep based on kills, Syndicate Rep is now based on Tactic Reliance percentage.


In the context of Endless Missions : 

At the end of a Rotation, if the Tactic Reliance percentage is above 50% then that Rotation Reward is added to the Claim/Extraction Rewards List.

XP is also added on a per Rotation Basis to the Claim/Extraction List.

XP being added would be based on the Tactic Reliance percentage and Balance Multiplier of the selected Tactic

To get the XP and Rewards, the squad would need to Claim or make their way to Extraction Successfully.

 

As taken from : https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/383582-tactic-selections-putting-a-stop-to-macro-farming-rng-and-grind-walls/#entry4231027

 

It's probably a bit technical though something that would be such a simple yet impacting change needs to be well thought out before being considered. 

 

I avoid public matches because the players lack skill. The less skill and intelligence a player has the more likely they are to throw money at the game developers; and as they are the ones keeping this free to play for me I am not in favor of making this game require more skill. Though i wish i could be as i would enjoy that.

 

I am partly in favor of the shifts you suggest though. I would love to see a increase in the loot dropped from containers at the expense of the loot droped from kills. The scale if this shift would be best decided by employees with access to player statistics.

 

I think in the spirit of your idea core drops could be removed from enemy drops under level 30, and inceased for enemies over level 30. Mods can be leveled well enough using other mods untill rank 7, which is enough to gain entery to level 30 gameplay. The more advanced enemies that prevent immobility tend to spawn with DPS worth considering if your immobile around that point. And if early game core duress was felt it could easily be addressed by adding it to objective rewards.

 

I dont know what DE will release in a years time though so I'm not to concerned right now. I'm just glad they reduced the sharp influx of resources in the immidiate.

 

so we may not be on the same page but we are likely on the same chapter.

 

It may be partially true that unskilled players will throw more money at the game.  For me, I threw money at the game because I had a disposable income at the time and because I loved the concept of Warframe and really believed that being part of the Design Council would enable me to provide a voice for the gamers who also are passionate about it and believe in the potential Warframe has to offer the industry.

 

There are quite a few players who would prefer to remove abilities almost completely out of Warframe and keep it as a parkour-ninja 3rd person BF3 style shooter game with some RPG elements.  I personally appreciate the unique touch that abilities have in the game and see that we should be provided with tasks for specific warframes and tasks that encourage healthy usage of abilities.

 

I never listed look increases in the Tactic Selections post because it was only something that more recently stood out to me as a reasonable means of offering players bonus resource rewards on top of those provided at the extraction point.

 

I'm genuinely sick and tired of playing Russian roulette with Warframe where you open a chest and roll the dice or you go to a market place and buy some core pack. and roll the dice.. or you hatch a kubrow egg and.. roll the dice  or you do literally 90% of the things in this game.. and roll the dice.. (pull he trigger on your gun and roll the dice on chances of it firing 1 or 2 or 3+ bullets in multi shot etc.)

 

There is plenty of room for randomness with things like weapon statistics and hatching of kubrow eggs in the game, we don't need to have mission rewards randomized like this too do we?  What kind of assassin ninja would take on a job not knowing exactly how much the task was paying?  Calculating killers don't roll the dice so frequently when it comes to risking their own lives or gambling with their livelihood (rewards and pay from missions) but only a small quantity of missions offer clearly stated up front rewards and the rest are using a RNG drop table.

 

If I knew I would need a special type of loadout to complete a mission relying on a specific tactic, I think it would be reasonable to know what I am doing it for and that it's not going to be .. could be that sniper rifle part.. or it could be Ammo Drum.  This RNG is the other aspect of Warframe that Macro Farmers feed on.

 

Regular human players grow bored of repetitive tasks and re-rolling the dice over and over again but a CPU driven Script has infinite patience and will keep going back to back till it cleans out the drop table of rewards for that node many times over just ready for the player who is running it to make some effortless platinum in the trade channel.  They have no problem undercutting a human player who worked hard all night long to get that Loki Prime Systems since they were sleeping and it's cost them no hours of sleep or effort to obtain the same part.

 

 

EDIT : Maybe I am getting a little off track so to TL:DR that,

 

Yes, I agree that we are looking and aware of the same issues existing so whilst we may not see eye to eye about the solution, any input you would have on that concept we have been work-shopping is warmly welcomed.

Edited March 16, 2015 by Jax_Cavalera

[SnakeWildlife]

Couldnt agree more! There are plenty different ways to reward people which would stop people NEEDING to macro-up.

 

2 Excellent examples here which could be developed on:

-Loot Storage units   >  Give them much more credits and mod/cap-drop potential, make them once again worth opening.

-Syndicate Marks > FUN to find! I enjoy this, why not make Syndicate Marks a currency that i can buy things with? They require manual-human effort to collect.

 

The only reason Macro users, do what they do, is because thats the best way to farm.  The cause, is a terrible loot system.

 

I remember waaaay back in early beta, opening Storage units was highly profitable...now its a complete waste of time.

Lets change that, lets make exploration and other things which dont require standing still, more profitable.

[rockscl]

this tactics selection seem to have the potential to lift a skillfull gameplay to the place it deserves

[Jax_Cavalera]

Couldnt agree more! There are plenty different ways to reward people which would stop people NEEDING to macro-up.

 

2 Excellent examples here which could be developed on:

-Loot Storage units   >  Give them much more credits and mod/cap-drop potential, make them once again worth opening.

-Syndicate Marks > FUN to find! I enjoy this, why not make Syndicate Marks a currency that i can buy things with? They require manual-human effort to collect.

 

The only reason Macro users, do what they do, is because thats the best way to farm.  The cause, is a terrible loot system.

 

I remember waaaay back in early beta, opening Storage units was highly profitable...now its a complete waste of time.

Lets change that, lets make exploration and other things which dont require standing still, more profitable.

 

I remember when looting crates and storage lockers was the best way to obtain loot as well, the mods dropping from the lockers had stopped not long before I began to play but it was still good enough that every player wanted a copy of Master Thief for that chance at opening up lockers.  I'm not entirely sure why this approach to the game was boycotted in favour of a genocide model which is likely the start to this downward spiral we are witnessing.

 

this tactics selection seem to have the potential to lift a skillfull gameplay to the place it deserves

 

We're really hoping so too, it isn't completely fleshed out yet as there are a lot of additional tactics to be added to each mission type, it's something I'm trying to hold off from doing on my own because I really believe that the community as a group would have better ideas than a single member and when it comes to adding Warframe specific tactics, it will be pretty important that a majority agree on which warframes fit which tactics best etc.

[Fifield]

I like it, some suggestions

 

1 reduce a lot the normal exp and drops on mobs, so mass murdering plus the following points give a reasonable amount of rewards

 

2 Give much better drop chances for enemies that received headshots, weak spot hits and such, finishers, stealth kills, fire from wallruns and jumps

 

3 Give a little better drop chances for enemies that where killed by abilities that affected more than x enemies, being X based in the abilitys potential, so radials nukes that are used to kill 2 mobs hidden around dont reward the user with more loot and exp

 

4 Give a little better drop chances for enemies that where killed under the effect of abilities

 

Having thought about this, it's the best way to do it I can think of.

 

5 Give even better drop chances for enemies that received headshots from snipers and bows

 

Yes, due to lower chance of 'accidental' headshots.

 

6 increase exp gained at end of mission based on weapon accuracy

 

7 increase exp gained at end of mission by damage mitigated by shields, rolling, and enemy accuracy reduced by parkour

 

8 increase exp gained at end of mission by healing granted to allies

 

#7 would need to be capped, but yes.

 

I would add:

9 Instead of random affinity bonus quests, the game could give small affinity & credit bonuses for completing mini-missions of kills/doing damage with each weapon (reward given in-game), with an extra bonus for all 3.

 

I also like the idea of more powerful versions of nukes taking more skill & time to cast.