De's Word And Its Lack Of Integrity: Another Viewpoint From Another Long-Time Player

[Renegade343]

Enough to one-hit kill enemies without adding Serration or elemental mods? That's the issue here - unless they die in one hit, your target along with everything around them will become alerted. Remember that we're not just talking about things like the Vectis or Latron Prime here, this is also supposed to help with mastery fodder like the Furis and Grakata.

You know, enemies will not be alerted if you just shoot and hit one enemy. If you are hiding, and you damage an enemy, said enemy would just run towards you. You can kill that enemy and not alert any other enemy (but of course the stealth Affinity Multiplier is gone). 

 

And yes, some weapons would not be suited for stealth Affinity runs, but that is a good tradeoff, in fact, with the 500% Affinity Multiplier. Just like how some weapons would under-perform in some mission types. 

 

I mentioned silent ranged weapon because that's what would be getting levelled. Patrol routes matter because not only do they need to not see you, but you also need to kill the last enemy in line - I've found that quite often, enemies will be alerted if you kill someone in front of them with a ranged weapon (but not melee, for whatever reason). If there is more than one group of enemies, you then need to evade them both.

You do realise that enemies that see one of their allies die will not alert the whole map, right? They would just go into "searching" mode. You can still hide, and after 10 seconds or so, without spotting you, they will revert back to unalerted mode, and can be killed for continuing on the stealth Affinity Multiplier (and you can still evade two groups of enemies, and still continue to chain stealth Affinity Multipliers. Just think how to move out and continue.). 

 

Really, there is a lot more with enemy interaction than at first glance. 

[manub]

I understand 3 issues here:

1- ablities change. DE is trying to get us to use them as intended, the changes are most visible on ultimates because of ult spammers. I hate these guys. No fun in getting in a def & just waiting for mesa to kill everything in sight currently or excalibur to RJ everything before. Won t shoot DE for trying to limit that. The only games i do some spamming (but trying to limit it) are raids which unfortunately encourage it

2- grinding. Grinding for some ressources has always been a pain i agree. But rep? You accumulate it just doing any mission. Never understood the need to grind that. You won t advance as fast as some who play more but then it s a renewable omnipresent ressource. As for normal ressources any dark sector gives you more than enough to go. The only real grinding takes place for void parts & this is getting reworked

3- DE s "lies". The polls & forums are a way for DE to gauge the changes needed. Never did they say that they would be forced to act on it or i missed that part somewhere. Our gamer s opinions on things in the game are biaised, since we are not devs or programmers so i wouldn t always act on them if i was on DE s team. They do take it in consideration nevertheless when reworks are done (see SG & excal as you said). You may not like the decisions but i believe they try to do them for our benefit

Lastly: this game is a (semi-)beta, do you really expect them to do right the 1st time?

Complaining because of bugs/imbalances is fine with me, calling DE liars? I think you re taking it a little too far

[Stratego89]

Entirely?

 

Oh, Of course, spamming 4 from 1 place is the ONLY way to play the game. Demanding taxis to everywhere past Earth tutorial is not only normal, it is EXPECTED and RIGHT. Bringing unmodded level 1 frames to T4 missions SHOULD be encouraged! And everyone has to go as fast as possible to hog all of the XP and then spout racial slurs and other epithets in voice chat when everyone else cannot keep up with a lvl 30 speed modded Volt Prime. One style of play is the ONLY way to play...

 

THIS is what I see every day in Warframe now. And yes, it bothers me. I THOUGHT this was a GAME. You know? Play it to have FUN?

 

If you are not having fun in a video game... WHY PLAY IT? 

Everything that you just named is player behavior, and has almost nothing to do with "DE not listening to their playerbase". Firstly, believe me when I say that if you report racial slurs and the like it is dealt with promptly. Secondly, they have been encouraging NOT speeding through missions with things such as Sabotage caches, stealth bonuses, and syndicate medallions. As for people bringing their unleveled gear to high leveled missions- you can leave, you do not have to play with them. If you are joining on a void mission and they have the key, you deal with it or turn away. Their key their rules and all that jazz. Maybe I'm just lucky but I've almost NEVER seen anyone complain that people can't keep up with them, aside from the occasional JOKE about it. DE has acknowledged that people sit too much in certain places, and are working to fix that partially with the upcoming void changes (if you have not, I suggest watching devstreams when you find the time).

 

Games are for fun, at least in my opinion, and yours as well apparently. So now I ask you. If you're not having fun in Warframe, why play it? There are ways around all of this but if going around those obstacles is too much for you to do while still enjoying Warframe, it might be best to leave it as it exists currently, and do other things until an update comes out (probably soon) that fixes some of these issues.

 

EDIT: Also DE has acknowledged their dislike for "press 4 to win". If you have ideas on how they can fix the issue without causing other problems, I legitimately plead to you to voice them. It is not as easy as a lot of people think and it is a serious problem that the devs need as much help with as they can get.

Edited April 16, 2015 by Stratego89

[DoomFruit]

You know, enemies will not be alerted if you just shoot and hit one enemy. If you are hiding, and you damage an enemy, said enemy would just run towards you. You can kill that enemy and not alert any other enemy (but of course the stealth Affinity Multiplier is gone).

Interesting. I always thought that alerting one enemy alerted the others around them. I'm going to have to test this. Nevertheless, if you can't oneshot one of the enemies, it's unlikely that you're going to be able to oneshot the others around them.

And yes, some weapons would not be suited for stealth Affinity runs, but that is a good tradeoff, in fact, with the 500% Affinity Multiplier. Just like how some weapons would under-perform in some mission types.

This was my point - you originally said that stealth runs reduce the need for grinding in endless mission types for weapon levelling, but some weapons aren't feasible for stealth runs even at rank 10-15 (and almost none of them are usable at rank 0). If you've already ranked your particular piece of gear to 15 in some other mission, you may as well stick around for another few waves and get it to 30 - especially since running stealth missions when not Loki/Ash will take longer and the XP/unit time suffers as a response.

You do realise that enemies that see one of their allies die will not alert the whole map, right? They would just go into "searching" mode. You can still hide, and after 10 seconds or so, without spotting you, they will revert back to unalerted mode, and can be killed for continuing on the stealth Affinity Multiplier (and you can still evade two groups of enemies, and still continue to chain stealth Affinity Multipliers. Just think how to move out and continue.).

Really, there is a lot more with enemy interaction than at first glance.

This, I did not know. I'm not very familiar with the searching state of enemy AI.

[Renegade343]

This was my point - you originally said that stealth runs reduce the need for grinding in endless mission types for weapon levelling, but some weapons aren't feasible for stealth runs even at rank 10-15 (and almost none of them are usable at rank 0). If you've already ranked your particular piece of gear to 15 in some other mission, you may as well stick around for another few waves and get it to 30 - especially since running stealth missions when not Loki/Ash will take longer and the XP/unit time suffers as a response.

Or you can just rank up a bit by going loud in a few non-Endless Missions, then go off to silence the weapons to start reaping Affinity. 

 

Yes, there are going to be tradeoffs with the two gamemodes currently: Endless Missions will rank up all weapons without the player using them, but would take slower, and can turn to a grind later on. However, with Stealth Affinity Multipliers, while it would make a few weapons non-applicable to it, for the most part, most weapons can participate, and once it does, it would rank up very, very quickly. 

 

And by "need for grinding in Endless Mission types", I am referring to the fact that now, one does not have to grind Endless Missions to rank up weapons at a decent rate. One can now choose to do non-Endless Missions stealthily for boosting up Affinity very quickly. 

[Flowen231]

Lastly: this game is a (semi-)beta, do you really expect them to do right the 1st time?

Complaining because of bugs/imbalances is fine with me, calling DE liars? I think you re taking it a little too far

When will "beta" stop being an excuse? Warframe has been in beta for 2 years and it charges players for everything as if it was a complete game (not that that's a bad thing, I know that's just part of the business model). Sure, they won't get everything right the first time, even PSO2 which was made by sega needs to go into emergency maintenance every now and then. But why should every mistake, rash decision, and untouched game breaking glitch be excused just because DE calls warframe a beta?

 

Also, this is just me, but I doubt that warframe will ever graduate from beta. 

[manub]

When will "beta" stop being an excuse? Warframe has been in beta for 2 years and it charges players for everything as if it was a complete game (not that that's a bad thing, I know that's just part of the business model). Sure, they won't get everything right the first time, even PSO2 which was made by sega needs to go into emergency maintenance every now and then. But why should every mistake, rash decision, and untouched game breaking glitch be excused just because DE calls warframe a beta?

 

Also, this is just me, but I doubt that warframe will ever graduate from beta. 

I m not excusing everything by beta, there are a few problems that have needed fixes since a long time (void parts grinding is the major one but void is being reworked)

I am just pointing: they will come, just be patient. DE alrdy gave us a great game with a great story (though still waiting for more lore), they give weekly fixes & updates with new content regularly. I can live with all this not being right for a while at the start, & with it needing developpement/modifications over a long time

as you pointed, other MMOs & online games require regular modifications & maintenance, why should this one be perfect from the start?

 

all will come in time, be zen, wait for it, make suggestions (while bearing in mind these are just suggestions & no one is forced to act on it), complain when it needs to be done

calling the developpers liars just because some suggestions were not followed or because they have difficulty fine-tuning power mechanisms won't help none.

[Flowen231]

I m not excusing everything by beta, there are a few problems that have needed fixes since a long time (void parts grinding is the major one but void is being reworked)

I am just pointing: they will come, just be patient. DE alrdy gave us a great game with a great story (though still waiting for more lore), they give weekly fixes & updates with new content regularly. I can live with all this not being right for a while at the start, & with it needing developpement/modifications over a long time

as you pointed, other MMOs & online games require regular modifications & maintenance, why should this one be perfect from the start?

 

all will come in time, be zen, wait for it, make suggestions (while bearing in mind these are just suggestions & no one is forced to act on it), complain when it needs to be done

calling the developpers liars just because some suggestions were not followed or because they have difficulty fine-tuning power mechanisms won't help none.

I was just curious, this is one of the first MMOs Ive played and i have no idea how long beta times are for them. And I was just using pso2 as an example of understanding that even the most well developed titles need a fix sometimes (I was not saying that it compares to warframe, needing a major fix every 5ish months is nothing compared to warframe lol).

 

I'm not claiming any of that, it just seems to me that the direction this game is going in, it never will grow out of beta, I've read up on alot of games that follow the same trend, and it is a very viable business strategy. Just my point of view, nothing more, nothing less.

[vaugahn]

I was just curious, this is one of the first MMOs Ive played and i have no idea how long beta times are for them

 

Most games are in development for 3-ish years. More, depending on the scope of the game.

 

I have no doubt this game will come out of beta eventually, given DE's fondness for grandiose marketing announcements. However in its current state it's obviously nowhere near what we'd call a complete game.

[Rexlars]

Actually, they're adding it back in as an augment, or so it seems:

 

https://warframe.com/news/new-augment-mods-available

 

They can't be adding it back if it's not gone. Stealth Dmg Multiplier is not the same as Finishers. 

[(PSN)xXToastiButterXx]

I like how you state that one problem was DE didn't test out the new mechanics, the game is still in beta (loosely) so the community is left to test the new mechanics and DE can work from those results, don't expect a beta to be 100% working.

Edited April 17, 2015 by (PS4)rinneganadrian

[KvotheTheArcane1]

I like how you state that one problem was DE didn't test out the new mechanics, the game is still in beta (loosely) so the community is left to test the new mechanics and DE can work from those results, don't expect a beta to be 100% working.

Again, as I and others have said "beta" only works for so long. Beta can't be the fallback excuse every time for DE. "Something is wrong/bad/useless/broken beyond belief/Ignored? It's beta!"

[AlphaHorseman]

They can't be adding it back if it's not gone. Stealth Dmg Multiplier is not the same as Finishers. 

So long as it's working as it did before all this stealth nerfs became a thing. It's pretty sad though that it's resorted to this, of all things.

[Kalenath]

<snip>

 

Almost every online multiplayer game has loopholes or exploits that can be used to make it stupidly easy. Warframe is no different.

 

I DO play Warframe to have fun. But since SO many people have decided that THEIR fun consists of SCREWING ME OVER...

 

I will keep playing. I will not let the scum players dictate what I play and why. But they should not expect any help from me. IF the team actually works as a team and tries to complete the mission as a team, then I will do so as well. If they go all 'me fast, you slow jerkwad **** your **** you lousy *******' or 'Me stand way over there so you no get any XP hahahahahahahahaha!' then I will quit the session even if I am the Frost in a Defense mission.

 

Because their fun is screwing my fun. And frankly? I don't give a **** about some troll player's fun.

Edited April 17, 2015 by Kalenath

[tris1]

I don't trust them anymore nor do I even believe anything they say, there was a time I did but they go back on there word or don't listen to the community or just ignore and do the opposite of what people ask for. I might change my view after the Excalibur and frost buff but the grind is still stupid and has been getting worse not better

[Kalenath]

You know, people keep saying DE is untrustworthy. I dunno.

 

I have dealt with REALLY untrustworthy game companies. Riotgames, NCSoft, EA, Ubisoft. ANYTHING that ANY of these companies say, get corroboration from a third party and then ASSUME that whatever was said was not entirely true. That will keep you from being blindsided as badly. They WILL still screw you, but it won't hurt as badly.

 

And frankly... where in the EULA or TOS does it SAY that DE HAS to tell us EVERYTHING that they do and WHY they do it?

 

Not that I WANT to know anything about coding changes... brrr...

 

I thought THEY owned the game. Silly me.

 

In my own experience, they TRY to keep us in the loop FAR more than the scum at Ubisoft ever will. It's not perfect. But they are trying. Which is more than Riotgames ever will.

Edited April 17, 2015 by Kalenath

[Stratego89]

Almost every online multiplayer game has loopholes or exploits that can be used to make it stupidly easy. Warframe is no different.

 

I DO play Warframe to have fun. But since SO many people have decided that THEIR fun consists of SCREWING ME OVER...

 

I will keep playing. I will not let the scum players dictate what I play and why. But they should not expect any help from me. IF the team actually works as a team and tries to complete the mission as a team, then I will do so as well. If they go all 'me fast, you slow jerkwad **** your **** you lousy *******' or 'Me stand way over there so you no get any XP hahahahahahahahaha!' then I will quit the session even if I am the Frost in a Defense mission.

 

Because their fun is screwing my fun. And frankly? I don't give a **** about some troll player's fun.

Ok... this is great and all, but it just proves my point that all of this has nothing to do with DE's integrity. You are angry at the bad side of the playerbase and everyone is venting their frustrations at DE as if DE has done something wrong when they have not.

[ThePresident777]

The ironic thing about Ubisoft is that they publish the Rocksmith game series which is an infinitely more reliable experience than Warframe (and ME3 MP and so many other action games) and requires more skill than any action game ever will.

 

But, about the RJ nerf and DE's handling of it, there are some facts that make it difficult to believe some of what DE says on this issue:

 

0)  When RJ's targeting was changed to "close to enemies" there was no mention that LOS was still the goal.

 

1)  When RJ's targeting was changed to "close to enemies" the target limit of 16 enemies was removed.  This made RJ more powerful.  Making an ability more powerful, does not imply wanting to make it less powerful later on.

 

2)  Auto-target, unlimited enemy count, AoE has been a part of Warframe for a long time.  It was never implied that it is a place holder, temporary.  In fact, Warframe was promoted as not a typical game in early DE videos on youtube.

 

3)  RJ was made into an Auto target, unlimited enemy count, AoE like so many other abilities.  It was made common, or even normal for Warframe one might say.  This does not imply plans to nerf it.  (Awareness targeting is a nerf.)

 

4)  This is not just a matter of communication.  If DE had announced that they were going to make RJ into an auto-targeting + unlimited targets AoE, while they figure out how to nerf it into LOS/Awareness/Etc. later, people would have been scratching their heads and asking, "why give us something we want then take it away from us.  Why the chaos?"

 

Good games like Rocksmith are entirely devoid of all this developer non-sense and chaos.  One flavor of the quarter doesn't replace the previous flavor of the quarter in a good game.

 

And, we can't blame the players because the backlash always swamps the white knighting.

Edited April 17, 2015 by ThePresident777

[StarHunter234]

The ironic thing about Ubisoft is that they publish the Rocksmith game series which is an infinitely more reliable experience than Warframe (and ME3 MP and so many other action games) and requires more skill than any action game ever will.

 

But, about the RJ nerf and DE's handling of it, there are some facts that make it difficult to believe some of what DE says on this issue:

 

0)  When RJ's targeting was changed to "close to enemies" there was no mention that LOS was still the goal.

 

1)  When RJ's targeting was changed to "close to enemies" the target limit of 16 enemies was removed.  This made RJ more powerful.  Making an ability more powerful, does not imply wanting to make it less powerful later on.

 

2)  Auto-target, unlimited enemy count, AoE has been a part of Warframe for a long time.  It was never implied that it is a place holder, temporary.  In fact, Warframe was promoted as not a typical game in early DE videos on youtube.

 

3)  RJ was made into an Auto target, unlimited enemy count, AoE like so many other abilities.  It was made common, or even normal for Warframe one might say.  This does not imply plans to nerf it.  (Awareness targeting is a nerf.)

 

4)  This is not just a matter of communication.  If DE had announced that they were going to make RJ into an auto-targeting + unlimited targets AoE, while they figure out how to nerf it into LOS/Awareness/Etc. later, people would have been scratching their heads and asking, "why give us something we want then take it away from us.  Why the chaos?"

 

Good games like Rocksmith are entirely devoid of all this developer non-sense and chaos.  One flavor of the quarter doesn't replace the previous flavor of the quarter in a good game.

 

And, we can't blame the players because the backlash always swamps the white knighting.

this just the the last paragraphs.Warframe has a lot of potential but it has massive balancing issues so a lot of stuff ends up useless and then you grind+rng which can quckly burn you out hance why i play LOL more often then warframe i burnout without new content higher level enemies are just more of the same more health more damge nothing new,forcing you to just farm for that one overpowered mod or weapon doing the same thing over and over again insted of  motivating the palyer to change tactics or play diffrent game modes.

for example this video talks about some solutions

ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkHf5g2bv54

but still while DE are whearing out their trust with me they still are not as untrustworthy as some other companies (Ubisoft and EA i am looking at you) but more lack of ideas reather then underhanded tactics(for now at least but i dont like where the current direction seems to be going).There doesnt seem to be a solid idea on what endgame is suppose to be except more of the same but that just burns a lot of players out. Now not all obviously a lot of us are still here but really that cant last forever. That said the devs have talked about reducing grind and yet they do the opposite so that is quickly eroding my trust i also think that as much as i like new content stop with it focus is needed on balancing and grind reducing.

And if DE doesnt know how to reduce the grind well say it "we dont know" and make a challange to the playerbase present ways to reduce grind and make it more of a skill wall not grind wall with rewards for the top solutions which then get implamented.I like this game but the current way DE is doing thigs is not good for players and while DE needs to eat the player also need to be taken care of they are not the enemy.

Also more communication i think we need DE posting here more often.Even if DE is watching it does not seem like it + think of it as opportunity tell us DE why are you not doing it what problems are you faceing with this what is your cohirent engame vison and why cant you reduce the grind wall even thou you tell us you will.Maybe if w eknow what the problems are behind the scenes we are going to be more motivated and more capable of giving constructive feedback that is the benefit of transparency as well as trust.

 

Edited April 18, 2015 by StarHunter234

[Sunfaiz]

I agree... no trust will be given. The community should not trust DE anymore, I find it quite disturbing how they listen less to their players than they do a potato... I mean seriously... you guys your treating us like we have wronged you or something... 

[General_Durandal]

They got a lot on their plate, things are going to go pretty slowly.

But one thing is for sure, they really need to stop de-buffing things,

and give the top 25 worst weapons buffs.