Stop The Shield Bypass! - Shield Viability Vs. Bleeding

[VermilionBoulder]

Addressing the Year of Quality: Why is there so much shield bypassing damage in warframe?

Warframes that rely on their shields are often rendered useless when facing threats such as the recently added Manic grineer. A bleed proc is the bane of existance for every warframe that has low armor and/or health. This game has gone so far it practically punishes you for relying on shields.

 

Go face a level 30 Seeker. Got armor? No problem. (Sorry for the confusion, I realised armor has nothing to do with bleeding procs. The problem still stands, though.) Got literally any damage migitation ability? No problem.

 

Oops, your armor is 65 or less and you're bleeding? Welp, better wrap your things up and say goodbye to endgame with this frame.

________________________

 

Out of all 13 damage types we currently have, three or four of them have the ability to directly damage one's health. Why is it that way? If this is not intended to change, why is there no way to stop damage over time? (Don't even start on Iron Skin)

 

When Damage 2.0 was introduced, blocking would stop bleed procs from damaging your health, instead just draining stamina. While this was unrealistic and possibly even a bug, this was a fairly good mechanic that made it possible to survive bleeding procs. It was later on removed, and if you're not quick enough to drop a health restore down, bleeding is often a death sequence, as there is no way around it.

________________________

 

Another problem is the viability of shields.
Fixing it would be very simple - some of the ways this could be fixed are:

- Preventing any procs that directly damage health over time from occuring when the target (or Tenno) has even 1 point of shields on them. If this was applied to both Warframes and enemies, basically only the Corpus would benefit from it, as they suffer the same problem we do: shields just do not matter.

 

- Disabling shield bypass entirely, like it was done in Conclave (Which was a very good idea, IMO, as it gave warframes like Volt and Mag a chance at not dying from one lucky proc).

 

- Bringing back the ability to block bleeding damage by blocking with melee, which sadly would not be much of a solution for non-melee oriented builds.

 

- [As LocoWithGun suggested] While the warframe is shielded, its shields grant damage evasion, presumably coupled with preventing bleeding from going through them. This would no longer apply after shields were depleted.

_______________________

 

Please consider what I described, Digital Extremes. Anyone interested: voice your opinion below.

Damage 2.0 prevents a good portion of warframes from entering end-game, and this was going on for long enough.

 

Edit reason: +2 possible shield viability solutions, ironing out minor mistakes. Made the text slightly easier to look through.

Edited March 23, 2015 by Redstoneman

[PickleMonster21]

Out of all 13 damage types we currently have, three or four of them have the ability to directly damage one's health. Why is it that way? If this is not intended to change, why is there no way to stop damage over time? (Don't even start on Iron Skin)

But... ugh. Fiiiine. I'll just mention Hallowed Ground and be on my way >.>

[Vernoc]

compensate bleeding proc with health-restores or rejucenation aura, this proc is no problem for prepared player

[VermilionBoulder]

But... ugh. Fiiiine. I'll just mention Hallowed Ground and be on my way >.>

As studies show, every 1 in 23 warframes has this ability.

I meant a way of stopping DoT with literally anything that isn't an ability or a consumable.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Redstoneman

[PickleMonster21]

As studies show, every 1 in 23 warframes has this ability.

I meant a way of stopping DoT with literally anything that isn't an ability or a consumable.

Ahh, BUT studies ALSO show that 23 out of 23 Warframes are affected by this ability, whereas your Iron Skin thing is only personal. I could have mentioned Nyx's Absorb, but thought it would be better to name a Frame that ANYONE can benefit from.

[VermilionBoulder]

Ahh, BUT studies ALSO show that 23 out of 23 Warframes are affected by this ability, whereas your Iron Skin thing is only personal. I could have mentioned Nyx's Absorb, but thought it would be better to name a Frame that ANYONE can benefit from.

Where is the logic in that? You do not always play with an oberon beside you to keep clearing procs off of you.

Also, do you even get the point of this thread? I'm addressing the viability of shields. Means of removing procs are only possessed by certain warframes, further worsening the situation of a good part of all warframes: Having no way to stop those procs on their own.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Redstoneman

[PickleMonster21]

Where is the logic in that? You do not always play with an oberon beside you to keep clearing procs off of you.

Also, do you even get the point of this thread? I'm addressing the viability of shields. Means of removing procs are only possessed by certain warframes, further worsening the situation of a good part of all warframes: Having no way to stop those procs on their own.

The logic is play Oberon... or get friends who will c: *haii*

Of course I do. "Erhmahgerd, remove procs! I can't go out and tank with squishy Warframes ;-;" I can say I also run into this problem. I counter it with Rejuvenation... And yes. I change the Auras to Ds sometimes just for that. Just ask my Ash. Works effectively, actually.

Ultimately though, I am totally against this Thread. It removes God Mode from Frames like Nova and Loki, for example.

[VermilionBoulder]

The logic is play Oberon... or get friends who will c: *haii*

Of course I do. "Erhmahgerd, remove procs! I can't go out and tank with squishy Warframes ;-;" I can say I also run into this problem. I counter it with Rejuvenation... And yes. I change the Auras to Ds sometimes just for that. Just ask my Ash. Works effectively, actually.

Ultimately though, I am totally against this Thread. It removes God Mode from Frames like Nova and Loki, for example.

Sooo... You're saying I should play Oberon and cast any other warframe aside, because it is poor at survival in present circumstances.

 

D polarity on Warframes is loved, D polarity on weapons is hated. There's nothing unusual in giving warframes D polarities.

Your post qualifies for the "Git gud scrub" category.

 

Ash does not rely on shields. The problem this thread is about does not address Ash.

 

"It removes God Mode from Frames like nova and Loki, for example."   ...Are you for real right now? Can you cast personal preferences aside and, for once, think about how the warframes you probably consider trash the ones that suffer the most in this game? Or are you entirely against balance and just want to see this game burn at the hands of Power Creep? I certainly do not want to see that happen.

 

 

Actually enlighten me: How does removing procs that bypass shields remove what you described as "God mode" from Nova and Loki? I don't see your point.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Redstoneman

[BlueAnchorite]

The issue at hand is that it makes absolutely no sense to be damaged by a cut (toxin I can understand, our shields are most likely permeable), whilst our shields are up, only to be killed because something managed to cut us without touching us through a force field. I'm also not sure what you are talking about with rejuvenation, as the bleed proc scales off weapon damage, while the aura at most can restore 12 health per second if the entire team is using it. This means a bleed proc from a weapon of about 36 damage (as the proc is 35% according to the wiki) will completely negate the aura, and from there you take more damage as enemies get higher in the levels. 

 

The shields act as a way of risk and reward, if you run out of shields, then you should be able to be punished with slash procs, but being unable to avoid these procs at all is what is wrong with them.

[Otakuwolf]

Here also comes a wagon with peeps saying stuff like "Buy medkits" and other bandaid strategies that don't actually FIX the main problem

[VermilionBoulder]

The issue at hand is that it makes absolutely no sense to be damaged by a cut (toxin I can understand, our shields are most likely permeable), whilst our shields are up, only to be killed because something managed to cut us without touching us through a force field. I'm also not sure what you are talking about with rejuvenation, as the bleed proc scales off weapon damage, while the aura at most can restore 12 health per second if the entire team is using it. This means a bleed proc from a weapon of about 36 damage (as the proc is 35% according to the wiki) will completely negate the aura, and from there you take more damage as enemies get higher in the levels. 

 

The shields act as a way of risk and reward, if you run out of shields, then you should be able to be punished with slash procs, but being unable to avoid these procs at all is what is wrong with them.

This guy gets it.

[PickleMonster21]

Sooo... You're saying I should play Oberon and cast any other warframe aside, because it is poor at survival in present circumstances.

 

D polarity on Warframes is loved, D polarity on weapons is hated. There's nothing unusual in giving warframes D polarities.

Your post qualifies for the "Git gud scrub" category.

 

Ash does not rely on shields. The problem this thread is about does not address Ash.

 

"It removes God Mode from Frames like nova and Loki, for example."   ...Are you for real right now? Can you cast personal preferences aside and, for once, think about how the warframes you probably consider trash the ones that suffer the most in this game? Or are you entirely against balance and just want to see this game burn at the hands of Power Creep? I certainly do not want to see that happen.

 

 

Actually enlighten me: How does removing procs that bypass shields remove what you described as "God mode" from Nova and Loki? I don't see your point.

No, but hey. Who doesn't like using an Oberon, right?

Not just a D on the Warframe, but a D on the Aura. This kinda limits the use of Auras like the beloved Energy Siphons and Corrosive Projections.

I know it's not about Ash ._. But he's not the only one I've Forma's a D on for the Aura. He's just the first off the top of my head that can be kinda on the squish side. Oh, speaking of Ash though, Blade Storm allows Procs to pass without taking damage. So there you go. Rhino, Oberon, Nyx, Ash.

So, okay. Take away Bleeding Procs, let these Frames only mod for Shields, then have them wreak havoc on the battlefield, if they don't already... So you have a Loki, who rarely even gets hit thanks to Invisibility and Radial Disarm. You have a Nova who can slow her enemies and make them take extra damage, and then explode upon death, causing MORE damage to the ones around this enemy... Mag [Prime], who can Pull her enemies, rendering them useless for about 5 seconds, and Shield Polarize which can restore shields (I know, not health but having said that, she's not really made for facing enemies who like to Proc bleeding), Mirage who has a damage output increase/intake reduction ability, PLUS 4 "decoys" who can pretty much take a lot more heat off of her. Must I continue to list more low health Warframes that are able to divert getting hit, reducing that chance (theoretically) to get that bleeding Proc?

Enlightened? Having Bleeding makes the player think, I'm using Nova. Do I use up two (or three) slots for Vitality and Redirection (and Vigor), or do I mod for Shields, giving me that extra room for another Mod, or Health to act as a fallback in case I get a Bleeding Proc?

[Xana_Skullsunder]

No, but hey. Who doesn't like using an Oberon, right?

Not just a D on the Warframe, but a D on the Aura. This kinda limits the use of Auras like the beloved Energy Siphons and Corrosive Projections.

I know it's not about Ash ._. But he's not the only one I've Forma's a D on for the Aura. He's just the first off the top of my head that can be kinda on the squish side. Oh, speaking of Ash though, Blade Storm allows Procs to pass without taking damage. So there you go. Rhino, Oberon, Nyx, Ash.

So, okay. Take away Bleeding Procs, let these Frames only mod for Shields, then have them wreak havoc on the battlefield, if they don't already... So you have a Loki, who rarely even gets hit thanks to Invisibility and Radial Disarm. You have a Nova who can slow her enemies and make them take extra damage, and then explode upon death, causing MORE damage to the ones around this enemy... Mag [Prime], who can Pull her enemies, rendering them useless for about 5 seconds, and Shield Polarize which can restore shields (I know, not health but having said that, she's not really made for facing enemies who like to Proc bleeding), Mirage who has a damage output increase/intake reduction ability, PLUS 4 "decoys" who can pretty much take a lot more heat off of her. Must I continue to list more low health Warframes that are able to divert getting hit, reducing that chance (theoretically) to get that bleeding Proc?

Enlightened? Having Bleeding makes the player think, I'm using Nova. Do I use up two (or three) slots for Vitality and Redirection (and Vigor), or do I mod for Shields, giving me that extra room for another Mod, or Health to act as a fallback in case I get a Bleeding Proc?

 

So, spam CC or die? Great fricken solution. I love it when my playstyle revolves around pressing one butto- wait, isn't that exactly what DE says they have a problem with?

[VermilionBoulder]

So, spam CC or die? Great fricken solution. I love it when my playstyle revolves around pressing one butto- wait, isn't that exactly what DE says they have a problem with?

...It's hard to admit, but... this statement is true.

 

We can categorise warframes like this:

 

- Relying on armor: Rhino, Valkyr, Oberon, Chroma, (possibly) Frost

 

- Relying on ability-based damage mitigation: Zephyr, Rhino, Valkyr, Trinity, Ash, Limbo, Mirage, Loki, Mesa, Saryn, Nyx, Hydroid, Frost

- Relying on CC: Rhino, Mag, Mirage, Nova, Loki, Vauban, Excalibur, Hydroid, Banshee, (kinda) Ember, Nyx

 

 

Make of that whatever you will.

Also Volt belongs to none of these.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Redstoneman

[DoomFruit]

How the hell are you supposed to bleed when the bullet didn't even get through your shields? That's what I never understood. Bleed procs should not even happen if you have shields remaining after mitigating an attack's damage.

 

Also, armour doesn't do anything against bleed procs.

[ShadesofWhites]

Yeah, this is the one reason I'm questioning playing Nova anymore. There's no point in Nova Prime, because what good is hundreds of more useless Shield?

 

They add nullifiers, grineer snow globes, and infested spitters. All of these almost guarantee death if you are in a higher level area, and are too close to any of them. The only way to remove them, is the fastest fire-rate weapons in the game. 

 

OH, WAIT! Synoid Gammacor can't build fire rate anymore, and EVERY OTHER WEAPON that can get rid of them in any reasonable amount of time, deal less than 15k DPS and get rid of 100% of your ammunition. This means every other enemy EXCEPT nullifiers/snow globe/spitters are impossible to kill! Yay "balanced" weapons.

 

Game is fine. No need for balance, when you can destroy everything balanced, causing people to buy the new and improved "balance" every week.

Edited March 21, 2015 by ShadesofWhites

[Valafor]

I do have an idea for how to fix shields being useless, as the main offender is really slash damage.

 

Heat Damage- Remains way it is since it doesn't actually go through shields, maybe make rolling reduce duration of proc/ends it (stop drop and ROLL)

 

Toxic - Keep it the way it is. Of all the instant damage to health types, this one is most fair in my opinion because there is definitely a lot of conveyance of when something with toxic will hurt you. Toxic Ancient? Avoidable. Toxic eximus? Glowy green ring appears for a while before the actual proc, allowing you to either kill the eximus or get away from it. Mutalist ospreys/toxic crawlers? Avoid death clouds.

 

Slash -Make it only hurt your health when your shields are down. Unlike toxic damage type and all of its obvious signs, there is nothing fair about opening a door only to have a stray bullet hit you from across the map and deal like 15 damage, only to cause you to bleed profusely.

 

Let's pretend I have 750 shields and 300 health. I get hit by a stray bullet and slash procs. Normally, I would have around 700 shields but still bleed profusely. With my idea however, I will have 700 shields and no HP loss, and the shields are not being damaged or hindered from regenerating by my slash proc. Literally nothing happens as long as I have at least 1 point of shields. Now to compensate, if you have no shields and you have a slash proc, your shields cannot regenerate until the slash proc fades, and you will take health damage like it is now.

Edited March 23, 2015 by Valafor

[PickleMonster21]

So, spam CC or die? Great fricken solution. I love it when my playstyle revolves around pressing one butto- wait, isn't that exactly what DE says they have a problem with?

Whoa hey. I'm giving current solutions to a game we currently have. Would you like me to suggest we have Status Removal Pads?

Hey, here's another idea. The reduced Status Duration mod, Rapid Resilience. I'm still against the complete removal of Slash damage as I personally think it can change a player's complete playstyle... unless you're only capable of the "OMG must be tank" playstyle. 

[CapedBaldy]

Gets hits by first bullet with full shields, starts bleeding. It happens often enough and is a very poor and counter-intuitive design that punishes the players at random despite keeping their shields up at all times. Enemies already deal enough damage and does so very quickly that you will be punished by even small mistakes. It's time for a change. No more of this bleed nonsense. Toxin is fine as long as it's properly implemented and capable of being avoided.

[AkerTheSpjot]

Don't bleed procs ignore armor, so armor means little in this case ? But anyway, I agree with the first option, to stop it from bypassing shields. The procs would only occur when damage is done directly to your health with zero shield left. Like none of my frames actually use shield builds anymore, I just slap Vitality on everything.

Edited March 23, 2015 by The_Vile_Blade

[KyrosQF]

Life Strike. I know most of you hate pulling out your melee weapon to do something other than move with it but every frame can top themselves off very quickly.

 

If you absolutely positively must remove bleed and toxic procs from threatning you....Rapid Resilience. ESPECIALLY if you refuse to life strike and aren't running a camping strategy.

 

Remember, this is about countering it and it only takes one mod slot. If you can't afford to get these mods, then take your rhino, put on iron skin and deal with it.

[Antharis]

compensate bleeding proc with health-restores or rejucenation aura, this proc is no problem for prepared player

Bleeding proc depends on weapon damage. At certain enemy levels rejuvenation aura is rendered utterly pointless.

[VermilionBoulder]

Thank you for your contributions, people. It received more attention that I expected it to. I really hope this thread catches a random developer's eye...

 

In the name of the Year of Quality, which does show promise so far.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

No, but hey. Who doesn't like using an Oberon, right?Not just a D on the Warframe, but a D on the Aura. This kinda limits the use of Auras like the beloved Energy Siphons and Corrosive Projections.I know it's not about Ash ._. But he's not the only one I've Forma's a D on for the Aura. He's just the first off the top of my head that can be kinda on the squish side. Oh, speaking of Ash though, Blade Storm allows Procs to pass without taking damage. So there you go. Rhino, Oberon, Nyx, Ash.So, okay. Take away Bleeding Procs, let these Frames only mod for Shields, then have them wreak havoc on the battlefield, if they don't already... So you have a Loki, who rarely even gets hit thanks to Invisibility and Radial Disarm. You have a Nova who can slow her enemies and make them take extra damage, and then explode upon death, causing MORE damage to the ones around this enemy... Mag [Prime], who can Pull her enemies, rendering them useless for about 5 seconds, and Shield Polarize which can restore shields (I know, not health but having said that, she's not really made for facing enemies who like to Proc bleeding), Mirage who has a damage output increase/intake reduction ability, PLUS 4 "decoys" who can pretty much take a lot more heat off of her. Must I continue to list more low health Warframes that are able to divert getting hit, reducing that chance (theoretically) to get that bleeding Proc?Enlightened? Having Bleeding makes the player think, I'm using Nova. Do I use up two (or three) slots for Vitality and Redirection (and Vigor), or do I mod for Shields, giving me that extra room for another Mod, or Health to act as a fallback in case I get a Bleeding Proc?

You're going after a different problem now: that the game has so many methods of making content easy, and the balance is so intertwined with those methods, that anyone who fights enemies that aren't vegetables or target practice or unable to damage you will die at high levels. What you wrote is not at all a defense of bleed procs.

[AdunSaveMe]

Bleed procs are anti-skill and anti-fun. You shouldn't have to have a specific frame just to deal with one extremely common cheap mechanic that is applied almost endlessly on higher level missions where the enemies have higher damage and better aim.