Stop The Shield Bypass! - Shield Viability Vs. Bleeding

[MirageKnight]

Bleed procs are anti-skill and anti-fun. You shouldn't have to have a specific frame just to deal with one extremely common cheap mechanic that is applied almost endlessly on higher level missions where the enemies have higher damage and better aim.

 

Or have to rely on specific mods for that matter. Lifestrike, which requires channeling and being able hit things, and Rapid Resilience, which not everyone will have and only limits the duration of procs. 

[gam3addict]

There are several ways to fix bleed damage, because it is definitely a broken mechanic intended solely to punish shield-heavy frames. One, let blocking cancel DoT effects again; it was completely balanced because it forced a player to cancel all damage output for the duration of the bleed, although that doesn't fix the constant bleed spam from Grineer. Two, make bleed only tick damage when our shields are down, but raise the damage from it significantly so that it's still a threat. Three, and my least favorite, make bleed tick damage only while moving.

 

Bleed damage is not challenge, it only punishes frames without high health counts. Restores are not an argument because if we're going to be forced to rely on something that costs resources to make, we might as well be forced to construct our own ammo for each mission or else we get nothing. Life Strike is not an argument because if you get hit with a powerful enough bleed by, say, a Manic or Eviscerator you will die before you can do anything about it, plus staying in melee range long enough to heal from the bleed often means you get bled again and have to heal more. And you can't just say "Use frame x, it fixes your problems" because that's just annoyingly limiting player choice.

 

Imagine if an enemy REQUIRED you to use the Mk-1 Braton to kill it, and literally nothing else did any damage or had any effect whatsoever. Sounds annoying as hell, right? That's what people who defend bleed procs are saying, but with frames with personal heals. Toxic is fine, it's a relatively rare form of damage that honestly should bypass shields, but is only OP when the damage ticks from it become ludicrously powerful, but damage scaling is just a problem in every aspect of this game so that's to be expected. Bleed is only a problem because it's literally everywhere in grineer missions, can occasionally show up in infested missions, and the void has it too.

 

On a sidenote, it amuses me that DE continually nerfs block's more useful traits when most players continually ask for it to be buffed or reworked in some way.

[fatpig84]

Removing Bleed procs only make shield tanking dominant, which is what happened before damage 2.0.

Hardly anyone use Vitality back then, even on frames with decent health.

 

So it is kinda like a catch 22 situation.

 

What I feel is that bleeding proc rates should be based on how much shield you have.

So if you have 90% shields up and a bleed proc occurs, you got a 90% chance of avoiding the bleeding proc.

If the shield goes lower, the bleed proc chance goes higher.

 

So if you only got 10% shields left and if a bleed proc occurs, you got a 90% chance of getting afflicted. 

Edited March 22, 2015 by fatpig84

[VariantX]

Never understood why bleed works the way it does, when toxic exists. Bleed should just do DoT with all of  the damage going to the shields + delay to shield recovery + added inefficency to stamina recovery. When shields are depleted, then it wrecks your health as it does now.

[MirageKnight]

I don't think Bleed procs should be removed. Rather, I feel they should ONLY happen when shields are depleted and armour has been successfully punctured / penetrated. 

 

Slash should never randomly ignore shields and armour.

[zoboso]

The problem with shields is that the value a given player has fluctuates too much to balance easily.

[Rynax15]

Funny thing is, bleed procs used to only affect you with 0 shields. It was changed to a toxin like effect to make it more useful because the community asked DE to makes procs more useful.

[VermilionBoulder]

Funny thing is, bleed procs used to only affect you with 0 shields. It was changed to a toxin like effect to make it more useful because the community asked DE to makes procs more useful.

Holy S***, is this confirmed?

 

If it is... At times, DE are too easily swayed, and sometimes it's the exact opposite...

[Otaiken]

Seriously... restores are not a solution. Those things completely destroy the flow and speed of the game.

 

Imagine this... you open a door and immediately get hit by a bleed proc. This happens often. Could you have prevented that? No, it's RNG. It's annoying. So your solution is to immediately drop a restore?

 

Great so I drop a restore. I'm all filled up I sprint out of cover and immediately get hit by another bleed proc. So what now? Do I do that again. Do I drop a restore every 100 meters? That's your solution?

 

If anything I'll use Life Strike. It's still annoying having to switch (the holster time starts to get grating at this point) again and again... it's like filing paperwork. It's not fun, it breaks the flow. "Oh jeez, here we go again!" The RNG nature of the procs is adding to this further. I love getting a bleed proc from an enemy that has 99% puncture damage... yet here we go... the rare bleed proc for 150 damage per tick, marvelous.

 

Shields need two changes imho.

 

1) Bleed proc not going through them

 

2) Damage that broke your shield does not spill into your HP, prevents one shots, makes shields a bit more useful as buffer for damage, rewards speed and positioning as you know how many hits you can take. Some nemies can get punching through shield to HP as a mechanic.

 

Armor+HP should be about damage reduction and HP recovery.

 

Sheilds+agility should be about damage prevention. But shields are pretty bad at preventing damage and agility does nothing. Maybe we should get a dodge chance stat?

Edited March 22, 2015 by LocoWithGun

[VermilionBoulder]

Armor+HP should be about damage reduction and HP recovery.

 

Sheilds+agility should be about damage prevention. But shields are pretty bad at preventing damage and agility does nothing. Maybe we should get a dodge chance stat?

Armor for Health, Evasion for Shields?

 

I like this idea. It already exists in many games, and does its job pretty well...

[Falchoin]

While it's not a perfect solution, using Life Strike on your melee weapon is a way for any frame (assuming melee equipped with the mod) to recover lost health.  Obviously if the bleed proc is enough to kill your frame from full health (yay eviscerators...) it's not always possible to recover.

 

Also, as mentioned, bleed procs ignore armor.  It's just the higher hp frames generally have higher armor.

[PickleMonster21]

You're going after a different problem now: that the game has so many methods of making content easy, and the balance is so intertwined with those methods, that anyone who fights enemies that aren't vegetables or target practice or unable to damage you will die at high levels. What you wrote is not at all a defense of bleed procs.

Oh... my bad. I didn't know that thinking about it from a less head-strong point of view made it less of a defense...

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Oh... my bad. I didn't know that thinking about it from a less head-strong point of view made it less of a defense...

You identified a problem, and then decided by creating another problem you could cancel it out. That's what DE has tried and it hasn't worked. And now we fight vegetables because enemies capable of engaging with you and actually combatting you mean you're going to die.

[PickleMonster21]

You identified a problem, and then decided by creating another problem you could cancel it out. That's what DE has tried and it hasn't worked. And now we fight vegetables because enemies capable of engaging with you and actually combatting you mean you're going to die.

I identified a problem and gave ways on how to combat the problem instead of simply wanting to remove the problem. Like Vitality and Rapid Resilience. 

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

I identified a problem and gave ways on how to combat the problem instead of simply wanting to remove the problem. Like Vitality and Rapid Resilience.

Those are bandaids at best. Having Vitality or Rapid Resilience doesn't change the fact that slash damage is an unavoidable proc with an unreasonable punishment. Shield only builds aren't viable at high levels now anyway unless you're using all the methods you mentioned in your last post (which mean it doesn't matter what kind of procs and stuff get's added to "fix" the problem). Slash procs are one of many examples of DE making a change to combat an issue that could've been handled better (nerfing Redirection, although that's not necessary at this point), but only hurting everyone and adding a mechanic that's unintuitive and unrewarding.

[PickleMonster21]

Also, as mentioned, bleed procs ignore armor.  It's just the higher hp frames generally have higher armor.

Banshee, Nyx, Trinity, Volt and Zephyr all have the lowest Armour with a base of 15. 

Banshee, Nyx, Trinity and Volt all have a base Health and Shields of 100, with Volt having 150 shields.

Zephyr had 150 base Health and Shields.

Loki, Loki Prime, Mag, Mag Prime and Mirage all have the lowest health of 75, with Mirage having 80.

Loki and Loki Prime have 75 base Shields.

Mag and Mag Prime have 150 base Shields.

Mirage has 80 base shields.

All these Frames have lower health than the 5 mentioned earlier, but have a higher armor rating of 65.

Otherwise, the highest Frame with a high Health and Armor rating is Saryn with 150 Health and 155 Armor.

Valkyr had 100 Health with 600 Armor. Frost [Prime] and Rhino [Prime] all have 100 Health with 190 Armor.

Saryn, Ash and Zephyr all have the highest Health of 150 base.

Saryn's armor is 155.

Ash's armor is 65.

Zephyr's armor is 15.

So this statement isn't entirely true. The lower Health doesn't exactly mean lower Armor. Same goes for higher Health.

[PickleMonster21]

Those are bandaids at best. Having Vitality or Rapid Resilience doesn't change the fact that slash damage is an unavoidable proc with an unreasonable punishment. Shield only builds aren't viable at high levels now anyway unless you're using all the methods you mentioned in your last post (which mean it doesn't matter what kind of procs and stuff get's added to "fix" the problem). Slash procs are one of many examples of DE making a change to combat an issue that could've been handled better (nerfing Redirection, although that's not necessary at this point), but only hurting everyone and adding a mechanic that's unintuitive and unrewarding.

Of course they're bandaids xD What are you expecting me to do? Go to DE and just change things? I'm using what I have and making the best of it. I also disagree, as I prefer a good shield build UNLESS I'm going against Infested, and even then, that's to counter Toxic damage. I can't say I use Pads to counter Slash at higher levels as I actually always forget about them till someone says "I need health" and I'm not Oberon :P But having said that, my builds aren't entirely based around "Oh, you excel in that so I'll just mod for this". Of course, I strengthen their strong points but I also fortify the weaker points. 

After all this argument/debate, I still do not agree with the removal of Slash damage.

[NocturneOfSolace]

Of course they're bandaids xD What are you expecting me to do? Go to DE and just change things? I'm using what I have and making the best of it. I also disagree, as I prefer a good shield build UNLESS I'm going against Infested, and even then, that's to counter Toxic damage. I can't say I use Pads to counter Slash at higher levels as I actually always forget about them till someone says "I need health" and I'm not Oberon :P But having said that, my builds aren't entirely based around "Oh, you excel in that so I'll just mod for this". Of course, I strengthen their strong points but I also fortify the weaker points. 

After all this argument/debate, I still do not agree with the removal of Slash damage.

Do you even try to make sense?

[PickleMonster21]

Do you even try to make sense?

Do you fail to understand English?

[NocturneOfSolace]

Do you fail to understand English?

I understand it perfectly, a better question is whether you understand logic, literally every thing you've typed out in this thread is deranged and nonsensical

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Of course they're bandaids xD What are you expecting me to do? Go to DE and just change things? I'm using what I have and making the best of it. I also disagree, as I prefer a good shield build UNLESS I'm going against Infested, and even then, that's to counter Toxic damage. I can't say I use Pads to counter Slash at higher levels as I actually always forget about them till someone says "I need health" and I'm not Oberon :P But having said that, my builds aren't entirely based around "Oh, you excel in that so I'll just mod for this". Of course, I strengthen their strong points but I also fortify the weaker points. 

After all this argument/debate, I still do not agree with the removal of Slash damage.

What I'd expect you to do is what the OP did: ask DE to change it through the Forums, the thing DE has for providing feedback. You told him to use the bandaids. But he's asking for a more permanent fix, one that he cannot make happen just by using bandaids. So if you disagree that's fine, but saying that you disagree because there are bandaids makes no sense.

I'm not against Slash procs. I'm against Slash procs from hordes of hitscan enemies. That's RNG at it's worst, when it is the difference between life and death, when the computer determines whether you live or not.

You can defend Slash procs by arguing they're justified because otherwise, shields would never go down (this hasn't been true for a long time, but anyway--). But in that case, a more appropriate solution would be to look at how shields work and how enemies attack. Sure, you can make the game more difficult by having the computer take away players' health randomly, but is that really the best choice for the game?

[Otaiken]

The RNG of the bleed procs really pushes the annoyance level to the red zone.

 

Random chipping of your health from many sources is neither challenging nor fun mechanic. Nor is getting hit by a random bleed proc from a boss (that inflicts predominantly other damage types) for massive damage.

 

I'm pretty fine with Eviscerators for example. I can see the blade, I can hear the blade and I know that should I get hit by the blade the results are not gonna be pretty... especially for shield dependant frame. That creates some kind of tension, the situation has changed, Eviscerator is around.

 

Now opening a door or running out of cover or switching weapons as I have just topped myself with Life strike and THEN getting hit by a random bleed happily chipping at my HP (and more than chipping at some point), THAT is not a very tense situation... that is simply annoying and punishing.

 

So a middle ground: Bleed procs that make sense from sources where you expect them. But remove the RNG pointless chip procs from random mooks ESPECIALLY the ones that have 99% of other damage type.

Edited March 23, 2015 by LocoWithGun

[Yefrign]

I do have to agree that I find it very annoying... I still think games like Mass Effect did it well that even "poison" effects would drain shields until there are no shields to drain. THEN it chews on health, not to mention that a portion of your health regens up to a certain point depending on how much damage you have taken... I mean Tenno ARE using Sealed suits yes? with Life support and god knows what other techno goodies to help sustain the users life... so such a thing doesnt seem "unlikely"

 

having said that though I can then end up seeing the issue of SOME frames like Mag. she has a high shield pool and with Shield Polarize she can instantly get shields back... so... be good on your timing and you'll never die?  

 

I would like to see the change and then see HOW it affects frames across the board. right now only speculation can be done. having said that I can imagine that some frames would become VERY tanky as a result

[VermilionBoulder]

I would like to see the change and then see HOW it affects frames across the board. right now only speculation can be done. having said that I can imagine that some frames would become VERY tanky as a result

IMO, If bleeding procs were to be nerfed (by preventing them from going through shields), shields should also receive some kind of nerf. After all, warframes like Rhino, Valkyr, Oberon and so on were specifically designed to be able to take a hit and still stand their ground. But doing so would at least allow shield-reliant warframes to take a hit, provided that they seeked cover just for a few seconds, to get their shields back up.

 

Mag can restore her shields non-stop, but simply adding a 5-10 second cooldown to Shield Polarize would probably fix it. She would just be able to sit a top of an energy restore and spam Polarize non-stop to survive.

 

I see no issues with Volt, as he relies on agility to avoid being hit, and is actually in need of a buff in general. No bleeding procs while shielded = dodging becomes more effective. However, I feel that he should suffer from a trait whenever sprinting or using Speed:

1. Reduced shield recharge rate

2. Reduced shield recharge delay

 

All of the above would be calculated based on what speed he is moving at. Mobility is his weapon, so letting him recharge his shields faster even while under fire would be an OK way to buff him.

However, rushing face-first into a mob of enemies would not be possible without full shields, as even with reduced restoration delay, being under constant fire would effectively prevent them from recharging.

On the other hand, rushing through a level with enemies scattered here and there would mean he regenerates as much shield as he loses, enforcing his role as a speed buffer.

 

Whatcha think? Is that overthinking or a more-or-less good idea?

 

[CapedBaldy]

IMO, If bleeding procs were to be nerfed (by preventing them from going through shields), shields should also receive some kind of nerf. After all, warframes like Rhino, Valkyr, Oberon and so on were specifically designed to be able to take a hit and still stand their ground. But doing so would at least allow shield-reliant warframes to take a hit, provided that they seeked cover just for a few seconds, to get their shields back up.

 

Mag can restore her shields non-stop, but simply adding a 5-10 second cooldown to Shield Polarize would probably fix it. She would just be able to sit a top of an energy restore and spam Polarize non-stop to survive.

Go get hit by a Seeker and come back to say that shields need nerfs. Shields do not get any benefit from armour and that's already enough of a downside. Several new mechanics could be added to make things more interesting though. Damage is so skyhigh that even a small mistake will cause huge amounts of health damage.