The Increase In Drain From 9 To 11 For Cold Mods Makes It No Longer Possible To Fit 3 Different Damage Type Combinations With Any 1 Set Of Polarities.

[KhanCipher]

and this is why i only use my dual stat element+status chance mods...

[VioDuskar]

can't you people just forma any slot on your loadout? it doesn't even have to be D-polarity I don't have 12-15 forma on hand to fix everything that's broken now.

Slap in a forma. Problem solved. Not solved. as another person posted earlier, we shouldn't have to waste over a dozen forma and regrind to 30 again to fix weapons.

and this is why i only use my dual stat element+status chance mods...  sure, works for weapons that need stat chance, but for those of us that like pure DPH (per hit) we have to fix everything. why?

 

there are two fixes for this, let me have a free polarity without having to re-rank my weapon, or revert it back to 9 instead of 11.

[TheDandyLion]

Even free polarities will not resolve some of the issues. The larger issue at broad here is that it is no longer possible to account for switching damage types between builds.

[Hitomo]

u should never have maxed ur MODs in the first place, I never go above rank 6 or 7 ... just not worth it ...

[[DE]Momaw]

Switching the cold mods to Dash so that they are interchangeable with other elements is the obvious solution. It really doesn't make any sense why cold and only cold has a different polarity.

 

But at the same time, if you do, all the guns with Dee polarities effectively become "negative forma" weapons, since there's almost nothing worth adding that's a D on guns. Already brainstormed on multiple fronts for new and interesting mods in D, only time will tell if we get any.

[TheDandyLion]

Maxed which mods? Basic damage mods? That is not a solution.

[TheDandyLion]

Switching the cold mods to Dash so that they are interchangeable with other elements is the obvious solution. It really doesn't make any sense why cold and only cold has a different polarity.

 

But at the same time, if you do, all the guns with Dee polarities effectively become "negative forma" weapons, since there's almost nothing worth adding that's a D on guns. Already brainstormed on multiple fronts for new and interesting mods in D, only time will tell if we get any.

 

Actually, I did propose in one of the solutions to switch cold mods to dash polarity and switch all dual stat mods to D polarity to compensate. This would result in thematic continuity for both elemental mods and status mods while bringing about 3x as many D polarity mods.

[[DE]Momaw]

Actually, I did propose in one of the solutions to switch cold mods to dash polarity and switch all dual stat mods to D polarity to compensate. This would result in thematic continuity for both elemental mods and status mods while bringing about 3x as many D polarity mods.

 

But the dual stat mods only cost 7 points to start with, which is why they are amazing for guns that don't even have polarizations at all. The "value" of a Dee slot would be extremely low compared to Vee and Dash. Would prefer adding newer, amazinger, more expensive mods to justify the Dee slot's existence.

Edited March 22, 2015 by Momaw

[Egg_Chen]

When Archwing elemental mods with differing polarities and drains were recently released you know this change isnt about fixing or standardising mods.

It's just more grind, more Forma for some of us (I read the OP) and more boosters or slots if we go for two weapons to handle the different builds.

Anyway, well said OP, I vote for dash polarities.

[TheDandyLion]

When Archwing elemental mods with differing polarities and drains were recently released you know this change isnt about fixing or standardising mods.

It's just more grind, more Forma for some of us (I read the OP) and more boosters or slots if we go for two weapons to handle the different builds.

Anyway, well said OP, I vote for dash polarities.

 

I really hope a second set of 33 weapons is not something to be seriously considered. There are 3 builds for each weapon for a reason.

[Sh0ck-Wave]

I doubt anyone is going to get a free anything from this.

Effectively the weapons work while you don't change them .. that's the payoff.

 

Problem is as soon as you change a mod you'll never get it to fit again.

You can use options B and C to make other builds and just leave the existing 'broken' one.

 

Forma'ing will fix the issue, but if your build is effectively finished then you can just leave it.

 

'VoidCrystal' is probably the only 'free' chance your going to get to quickly fix the broken weapons.

[MumblesMcphatty]

I doubt anyone is going to get a free anything from this.

 

I don't see why anyone should - considering that the complaint for months (if not longer) has been about the regular elemental damage mods being disparate in terms of damage & drain.

 

So now - its fixed - what's the beef?

[faustias]

-snip-

I was saying you could just forma it because it's one of the easiest solutions, disregarding the time you will need.

I am on course of new formas, and grinding, because of that mod drain change. 9 more weapons for me to go. add my grind on Chroma's optimization via polarities.

 

and, FYI, PC players can utilize the free 3-day boosters with keyword "VoidCrystal". I don't know how it should be hard even for 3 T1D runs 20 waves.

EDIT: don't give me calculations of the time spent on a T1D-20waves, and total it on a "casual" amount of hours a person can play per day. No, I don't care about it. My advice for that is forma your most important weapons while using that free booster, if you don't have the free time needed.

Edited March 22, 2015 by faustias

[TheDandyLion]

Seriously, no amount of forma resolves this issue. That is the reason this is a problem. Please read the post before commenting.

[ChaosJames]

Wow, that sort of sucks. I personally don't have that problem because I'm a low-tier player, but my heart weeps at the thought of having to grind any of that out to "fix" it when it can't even be fixed if you have more then 1 build. The ABC slots are there for a reason (and much more generous then the piddly-arse Loadout slots you *don't* get for other Warframe builds. (Yes, I'm whining a bit. I appreciate unlocking Loadouts with Mastery Ranks, but I'd like one for each of my Warframes, XD)

 

I think reverting the change before it does much damage (from other players working around the new change) would be best until DE can look into the numbers and see if any new changes would have negative effects as well.

 

As a side note, I'm surprised DE hasn't implemented some Emoticons to the forums representing the Polarity Slot symbols using either simple keys or short phrases. I guess we could call them by their proper names, but some people get confused, lol.

[Tulzscha]

General Discussion isn't the place for feedback threads, please read and understand:

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/318374-please-read-before-posting-threads-what-is-and-isnt-general-discussion/

 

Moved to the proper section.

[Sloan441]

Forma does solve this issue. Forma can solve any energy issue when it comes to modding.

 

The present issue is someone is lazy and doesn't want to put the time in to optimize their stuff--a fundamental part of progression in this game.

 

Momaw does have a point, however. D-polarities for cold damage mods have never made sense and have been an irritant from the getgo. Personally, I forma these off as a matter of course. This could be considered indicative of why this probably should be looked at and changed.

 

Nevertheless, it is what it is and forma is the solution for the problem as it now stands. Or you can downrank your cold damage mods.  

[Yezzik]

All you need to do is move the D polarity to the bottom-right and forma another - polarity slot, then move the three - elements around between loadouts.

 

I got mine working and I nearly messed my shotgun loadout, what with Blaze existing.

[Kontrollo]

This pertains to both Primary and Secondary weapons. It does not pertain to melee weapons. To summarize the issue, this increase in drain for cold mods limits build flexibility by creating a situation that no longer allows for any combination of polarities on a weapon, regardless of number of forma, to fit 3 builds with different damage type combinations. To reiterate, this situation was not present prior to the change.

 

To demonstrate this, I will walk through an example of modding a weapon and creating polarities. For my example I will use the Despair because it summarizes my current feelings. However, I will stress that this example applies to Primary weapons in the same way. I could even provide another walk through example for a Primary weapon if absolutely necessary and requested, but for now I will just say that it would be redundant.

 

Despair lvl 30 (Orokin Catalyst)

Builds: Void (A), Grineer (B), Viral ©

 

Assume all mods are max rank. First, I put the standard mods for any weapon. These are Hornet Strike, Barrel Diffusion, and Lethal Torrent. As such, I will put 3 V polarities. Next, I put the Seeker mod for Punch Through. This mod also does not change in any of the builds, so I will add a dash polarity for it. This means that 4 of the 8 slots are polarized and do not change. The drain totals to 27 out of 60 and cannot be made any lower.

 

Remember that additional polarities reduce drain for matching polarity mods and increase drain for clashing polarity mods. This means that increasing the number of polarities decreases the potential for flexibility beyond a certain point. This is an important point.

 

The next 4 slots are for elemental and damage type combinations. I will start with the Grineer build. The most common build is a combination of Radiation and Viral. This requires Convulsion, Heated Charge (not Primed Heated Charge), Pathogen Rounds, and Deep Freeze. Each of these mods now have a drain of 11. That is a total drain of 44, but it needs to be reduce to 33 to fit. This requires several additional polarities. 3 of the 4 mods have a dash polarity. Deep Freeze and all other standard cold mods have a D polarity. From here, I add 2 dash polarities. For example, I will say that now Heated Charge and Convulsion have a drain of 6 due to the added dash polarities. This means that 2 of the mods have a drain of 6 and the other 2 have a drain of 11. This is a total of 34, which means it can no longer fit. So far this means that 6 of the 8 possible mod slots have an assigned polarity, but it still cannot fit. This requires an additional polarity. That means that 7 of the 8 mods slots must be polarized to fit this combination. All but one slot must be polarized to fit this combination. However, the Despair is a weapon with a mostly Puncture centered damage spread. This means that there is a different combination that is more effective. Radiation with Puncture and Toxin is done made the same way except by replacing Deep Freeze with Bore. The mods have the same amount of drain now. To fit this, you need 1 more polarity and the only choice is another dash polarity. To summarize, there are now 3 V polarities, 4 dash polarities, and 1 slot that is not polarized. The total drain is 56.

 

Now, I will look at the Viral build with the same polarities. The first part is the same, so there are 4 slots left for elemental mods and 33 points. A full Viral build requires Pathogen Rounds, Deep Freeze, Pistol Pestilence, and Frostbite. These mods have a drain of 11, 11, 7, and 7 respectively. The total drain is 36, but the polarities must be taken into account. 3 of the remaining four slots have a dash polarity. Taking these polarities into mind, the new drains become 6, 11, 9, and 9 respectively. That puts the new drain total at 35. This means that the build cannot fit with the 33 points left. Prior to the increase, the total drain was 33 and it just barely fit perfectly.

 

There is nothing that can be done to resolve this issue and have both damage type builds possible with the same combination of polarities even though it was possible prior to this change.

 

 

That was the objective appeal with as much logical detail and precision as I could muster about the problem. Now I will focus on some subjective approaches, which will include alternative views, common arguments, and some emotional appeal.

 

Honestly, think about this in depth has made me very sad. It comes with some rather unfortunate realizations. The first is that most players will not even notice this problem because they do not use Punch Through mods at all and just put an additional damage type mod. From their point of view, they could argue that it is my Punch Through mods that are causing this problem, which from their view is just my personal problem, rather than a larger issue. Let's say that hypothetically they are right. Then that just makes me really sad. I like Punch Through on my weapons. I like shooting enemies through walls or other enemies. I like it the same way I like using semi-automatic weapons with slower rates of fire, higher damage per shot, lower magazines, and quick reload speeds. I like it the same way as having longer range on my melee weapons. It is a choice that I enjoy. It is easy to attribute this newly created problem to "having to make sacrifices" or "tough choices" without having to think about it too much or empathize with the issue. This just makes me incredibly sad. There are many changes happening to the game that make certain choices "less legitimate" in some way. This narrows down the amount of choices that can be made, which makes the game less enjoyable as a whole. By being unable to account for builds with different damage types, it narrows down the choices that can be made. It is also incredibly dismissive to say such a thing about "tough choices" or "sacrifices" without having personally put in the thought, time, resources, and effort to max out Despair and 32 other weapons (I actually counted, not including any melee weapons) in order to make them just how you personally wanted them to be. Please make effort to understand this.

 

 

Now that I am done with the subjective things, I would like to propose several simple solutions.

 

*Revert the Changes: This is by far the most simple solution and would resolve the problem. It may not be the best solution in the long run.

 

***Change the D polarity on Cold mods to Dash polarity: Having one element with a different polarity from the rest is logically inconsistent and one of the attributable causes of this problem. It would be best in the long run to have thematic consistency between mods types. In the short term it would result in fewer D polarity mods. This could be resolved by changing the dual stat, 60% element and status mods to D polarity. It would fit thematically with the status % mods and result in 3 times as many D polarity mods without causing this problem. This would also be a solution to the lack of D polarity mods.

 

*Reduce the Costs of Punch Through Mods: 15 is really high for a single utility mod on a weapon with so many other high drain mods around. Reducing it to 11 would resolve the issue and put the Punch Through mods in a better place.

 

*Slightly Reduce the Drain of some Mods with Odd Numbered Drain: Reducing the drain on damage type mods from 11 to 10 would save 1 point each and resolve the issue without changing much. An 11 drain mod in polarity saves 5 points. A 10 drain mod in a polarity also saves 5 points.

 

Yeah, I see the problem. However, it only is one if you absolutely have to use the highest ranks of your mods in all of your loadouts. You basically have 4 options:

• Use 1 event mod (damage/status) instead
• Use a lower rank on one or more of your mods (if you don't own the status mod). Rank 3 Deep Freeze has a cost of 9 and adds +60% like before they made the changes.
• Use the nightmare mods Wildfire and Ice Storm. The latter is pretty good on certain weapons, despite its low +40% damage.
• Rank up and polarise another weapon. Ouch, would not recommend.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm a bit annoyed by this change, too. However, the only mod that is objectively worse than before these changes is Cryo Rounds. But I'd rather have all standard elemental mods provide the same damage increase and drain. If anything, they should change the polarities.

 

Edit: typo

 

Edit 2: You can use this Warframe Builder link to play around and see the OP's problem yourself. It's a template with all the mentioned polarities and the 4 base mods. Note that Warframe Builder still uses 9 instead of 11 for Deep Freeze's cost.

Edited March 22, 2015 by Kontrollo

[rainxmachina]

This would explain why my Torid was at -1 after the update.

[TheDandyLion]

The part that really bothers me here is that it is not like any of these builds are unable to be fit on a weapon. That part does not change. The thing that does change is that this negates the ability to switch between damage types for different factions. I am given the impression that different builds for different factions is intended in the game design.

[TheBrsrkr]

The D polarity just needs to be removed entirely. None of the mods there (besides Cryo Rounds now) are worthy of needing a Forma as they cost 9 mod points, which is manageable on most builds without Forma. Cryo rounds is odd for no reason whatsoever, and should have been changed from the implementations of Damage 2.0

[TheDandyLion]

It does seem that they are trying to force the D polarity on us, but increasing Cryo Rounds to 11 has created a peculiar situation that does not allow for build flexibility. There really is no need to make D polarities needed and forcing it just creates an artificial need with no real gameplay purpose.

[SlytexNL]

I've tried both Radiation + Viral and Viral only like you tried and a few extra builds and it works perfectly fine with 7 polarities:

 

Radiation + Viral for grineer:

4 standard mods Hornet Strike, Barrel Diffusion, Lethal Torrent and Seeker, all matching polarities = 2 forma (since there are already 2 V polarities) and a 27 drain like you said.

For combination for elements we add from left to right:

1 Add No polarity and a Conculsion = 11 drain

2 Add -- polarity and a Heated Charge = 6 drain

3 Add -- polarity and a Pathogen Rounds = 6 drain

4 Add D Polarity and a Deep freeze = 6 drain

With a toal of 29 drain + 27 drain earlier is exactly 56 drain like you said.

 

For Viral only we keep these polarities and here is where the D comes in. We keep Pathogen Rounds and Deep Freeze excatly where they are with a total of 12 drain. Swap Convulsion and Heathed Charge for Frostbite and Pistol Pestilence and get 7 and 9 drain (9 for the wrong --- polarity in the 6th slot)

7+9+12= 28 drain + the 27 drain from the 4 standard mods = 55 drain. 5 left.

 

You also have Void as option A which is normally corrosive and cold:

From left to right add: Pistol Pestilence, Pathogen Rounds, Convulsion, Deep Freeze (7,6,6,6) = 25 drain and you will have 8 points left.

 

Also you mention a toxic build with Puncture:

From left to right add: No Return, Pathogen Rounds, Bore, Pistol Pestilence (7,6,6,9) = 28 drain and you will have 5 points left.

 

You want Magnetic and Toxic for corpus?:

From left to right: Deep Freeze, Convulsion, Pathogen Rounds, Pistol Pestilence (11,6,6,9) = 32 drain is 1 point left

 

The last one I can think off is a corrosive blast build:

Pathogen Rounds, Convulsion, Heated Charge, Deep Freeze (11,6,6,6) = 29 drain = 4 points left.

 

Edit: Build for infested corrosive + heat:

Form left to right: Pathogen Rounds, Convulsion, Heated Charge, Pistol Pestilence (11,6,6,9) = 32 drain is 1 point left.

 

As you can see, the D polarity is actually usefull for any of the builds above. Anything else you need?

Edited March 23, 2015 by SlytexNL

[TheDandyLion]

I've tried both Radiation + Viral and Viral only like you tried and a few extra builds and it works perfectly fine with 7 polarities:

 

Radiation + Viral for grineer:

4 standard mods Hornet Strike, Barrel Diffusion, Lethal Torrent and Seeker, all matching polarities = 4 forma and a 27 drain like you said.

For combination for elements we add from left to right:

1 Add No polarity and a Conculsion = 11 drain

2 Add -- polarity and a Heated Charge = 6 drain

3 Add -- polarity and a Pathogen Rounds = 6 drain

4 Add D Polarity and a Deep freeze = 6 drain

With a toal of 29 drain + 27 drain earlier is exactly 56 drain like you said.

 

For Viral only we keep these polarities and here is where the D comes in. We keep Pathogen Rounds and Deep Freeze excatly where they are with a total of 12 drain. Swap Convulsion and Heathed Charge for Frostbite and Pistol Pestilence and get 7 and 9 drain (9 for the wrong --- polarity in the 6th slot)

7+9+12= 28 drain + the 27 drain from the 4 standard mods = 55 drain. 5 left.

 

You also have Void as option A which is normally corrosive and cold:

From left to right add: Pistol Pestilence, Pathogen Rounds, Convulsion, Deep Freeze (7,6,6,6) = 25 drain and you will have 8 points left.

 

Also you mention a toxic build with Puncture:

From left to right add: No Return, Pathogen Rounds, Bore, Pistol Pestilence (7,6,6,9) = 28 drain and you will have 5 points left.

 

You want Magnetic and Toxic for corpus?:

From left to right: Deep Freeze, Convulsion, Pathogen Rounds, Pistol Pestilence (11,6,6,9) = 32 drain is 1 point left

 

The last one I can think off is a corrosive blast build:

Pathogen Rounds, Convulsion, Heated Charge, Deep Freeze (11,6,6,6) = 29 drain = 4 points left.

 

As you can see, the D polarity is actually usefull for any of the builds above. Anything else you need?

 

It is true that a D polarity resolves the issue for builds that do not use IPS mods, but this is not the case on builds that do. I never mentioned a Toxin and Puncture build. I mentioned a Radiation, Puncture, and Toxin build. The difference huge. One is the most effective Grineer (and Void) build and the other is not used. No Return is not a legitimate mod either. The new event sets of IPS mods are what the old ones should have been buffed to make them a legitimate choice. Lastly, putting Pistol Pestilence in place of Pathogen rounds on Despair is ridiculous. That 2.5% status chance makes it worthless. I did not cover Corrosive build because it does not have this problem, so there is no point in mentioning it. Corrosive or corrosive and cold works out fine. Grineer build is also a Void build, so I no longer refer to corrosive build as Void build. Having both on two different weapons is the best approach now.

 

Your last line is rather condescending and unwarranted. Your solution was merely a strawman argument by changing what you choose to recognize as the problem and deliberately changing details to provide a solution.