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[Suggestion] Either Limit Clansizes Or Implement Size-Based Brackets @ Leaderboards


Marijan
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Since clans serve multiple purposes and aren't just there for weekend events it doesn't make sense to create a limit on clan size just so weekend events will be fairer. A better solution would be to tweak the way operations work so that competition is fair between clans. So instead of rewarding clans that have the highest number of kills in total, only calculate the kills made by the top 50/100 players within the clan. The leaderboard for total number of kills can still exist, it just won't count toward any reward.

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As for the bracket solution, it beckons the question of where do you draw the line?

 

If you only divide it into 4 bracket of let say, under 50, under 200, under 1000, and 1000+, you'll run into the exact same problem of larger clans having an advantage over the smaller one, but this time clans have the not so pretty option of jumping into the closest bracket where they will be advantageous in at the expense of purging the neccessary players required to reach said bracket.

 

At the same time, if there is too many brackets, it defeats the purpose of a competition in the first place, and why not just make it a thing of rewarding clans that have reached a specific target, be it kill count, mission objective, so on and so forth.

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Or you could just create a separate leaderboard that only counts the kills of the top 50 players in the clan, then give the winning clans a certain reward, and allow the clan leaders to dish out the reward accordingly.

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Or you could just create a separate leaderboard that only counts the kills of the top 50 players in the clan, then give the winning clans a certain reward, and allow the clan leaders to dish out the reward accordingly.

 

What happens if the Clan Leader cuts and runs with the reward?

 

Is DE going to want to devote support effort for that? No. Should they? No.

 

Seriously.

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I don't get it. If a clan is small and elite, then they would easily be able to top the personal player list and get some cool stuff. Is a reward for the dojo really such a big deal? I don't think anyone outside of the clan is gonna be able to see it, anyway. At least, you can use the mods from the personal ranks in missions, as well as save yourself some grind time.

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The core problem remains the feeling that things are unfair. The counter-argument is, that no one forces you to have a small clan.

 

The way that I am looking at it is simple. If you come to a race with a F1 car, and your opponent shows up with a Shelby Cobra, because he wants to ride in style, that is valid and cool. But he cannot complain that your car is lighter and faster - he chose his ride. So if the F1 car keeps winning, the Cobra either is switched for an F1 car, too, or the driver accepts that he made a similar, but ultimatively weaker choice.

 

He is still riding in style, though. ;)

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Exactly, well said. Its a choice that you make. You can't keep saying its unfair for smaller clans. That is the choice a person makes in clans. Also realize although there may be rewards in regards to clans, those aren't required at all to enjoy the game. This game didn't start as a clan based game, its something added by the devs to improve coop gameplay and really find others to work together with. Clans won't define some massive competition your making it seem to be. Warframe is very much still a game about playing with your friends! sure ill work hard to improve my clan, thats why I joined them, but ill still mainly play with the people i have been playing with. Rewards for individuals or smaller clans can be implemented, but a bigger clan that achieves more deserves a greater reward too. F1 car indeed. :)

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I am part of a small clan of RL friends and I don't give a damn about us not being on the Leaderboard. We still had fun killing those Moas dead.

This isn't primary school where you get a gold star for participation, this is a Weekend competition between clans. You want to compete for the highest ranks? Act like it and saddle up, recruit and coordinate.

The really neat stuff was given to the personal leaderboards anyway, and you could have competed in those quite easily.

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I am part of a small clan of RL friends and I don't give a damn about us not being on the Leaderboard. We still had fun killing those Moas dead.

This isn't primary school where you get a gold star for participation, this is a Weekend competition between clans. You want to compete for the highest ranks? Act like it and saddle up, recruit and coordinate.

The really neat stuff was given to the personal leaderboards anyway, and you could have competed in those quite easily.

You dont seem to get it. If gaining rewards just means sticking a label to yourself as part of a giant clan that makes up 50% of the game population, thats basically like going "Click accept to recieve free stuff." You wouldnt even have to be playing. Size matters. At that point, even more people will converge onto a single clan. Nomatter how hard you work, there is a physical limit where you are easily outdone by people doing even minescule labor in large scale. to picture this, it would be like shwartzenegger in a tug of war against 100 nerds. You can only be so strong. If a single conglomerate overshadows and takes everything worth getting by landslide, then that defeats the purpose of really doing anything clan based, by then your "clan" is just a friends list and anyone without your clan tag would be unheard of. Yes, i dont expect a single person to be able to outshine a massive group. But at the same time, this is a game where your groups are there for sake of community, not benefits. The benefits and trophies are meant to promote your community's determination and commitment, not dogpile into a snowball. Would you really watch the olympics or play a sport if there was no standard for teams and size? If you could play football with a team of 5 vs 20?

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This is based on speculation that clans will receive special rewards for outdoing other clans. This is not taking into account the possibility that the rewards will be based on effort divided by members, for example, to give a metric of what clan has the hardest working members.

 

Currently, there is no mechanic in the game that rewards clans. So far, only individuals have been rewarded.

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Yeah, so what. Like Ced already said. This event also had a personal leaderboard. You could have made to the top in that one. 

I dont see why small clans should be able to compete with huge clans in something like kill count. You dont want to be in a huge clan. Thats ok. Nobody is forcing you. But please, dont try to make every clan equal just because this feels unfair to you.....

They could do rewards for the different clan sizes. The best clan with 20-60 members / 60-100/ 100-150 etc.

Why do you want to restrict the whole community if a solution like this would benefit everyone and restrict nobody...

 

That's exactly one of the two suggestions I made, I would appreciate it if you would actually read my posts as I already mentioned ...

 

 

 Just a cool tidbit.

 

 Warbros hit the top of the Fusion Moa event leaderboards with 37582 kills.

 

Warframe Japan was in second place with 22265 kills.

 

Warbros is a smaller clan then Warframe Japan.

 

 It didn't save those Moa.

 

I never said that there is no way to outshine bigger clans as ambitious players, but it's only possible to a specific degree and 400+ players are already a huge amount of members. In the future clans will become even bigger and it will be virtually impossible to earn anything without being a clan with multiple hundred players, since you can't compete with the big ones with multiple thousand anymore otherwise.

 

If rewards were given based on clan numbers, then this can become a problem.

As it stands to reward individual effort only, i think its fine

 

Dojo-specific rewards of "high esteem" were already announced, as I already mentioned and quoted in multiple in my posts.

 

Since clans serve multiple purposes and aren't just there for weekend events it doesn't make sense to create a limit on clan size just so weekend events will be fairer. A better solution would be to tweak the way operations work so that competition is fair between clans. So instead of rewarding clans that have the highest number of kills in total, only calculate the kills made by the top 50/100 players within the clan. The leaderboard for total number of kills can still exist, it just won't count toward any reward.

 

I like this idea as well, but that might lead to "freeloaders", who don't intend to contribute anything, but are getting rewarded for the efforts of someone else. Not saying that that's necessarily a bad thing. Furthermore it kind of takes away some of the motivation if you know that your efforts are going to be meaningless in leaderboards etc..

 

 

 Yeah, it isn't fair to the big clans to say "How dare you have so many members! We are going to nerf the value of your effort so that little clans can keep up!"

 

Never said this. I said it will be impossble for anyone, who doesn't want to join a clan with so many members that you can't even know half of them personally, to compete with the biggest ones in the future. One of my two suggestions to make both preferences valid hurts absolutely nobody.

 

 

 

Just add a second leaderboard which has kills/players while keeping the total kills leaderboard. Reward bling as appropriate.

 

This might be a nice addition as well.

 

 

As for the bracket solution, it beckons the question of where do you draw the line?

 

If you only divide it into 4 bracket of let say, under 50, under 200, under 1000, and 1000+, you'll run into the exact same problem of larger clans having an advantage over the smaller one, but this time clans have the not so pretty option of jumping into the closest bracket where they will be advantageous in at the expense of purging the neccessary players required to reach said bracket.

 

At the same time, if there is too many brackets, it defeats the purpose of a competition in the first place, and why not just make it a thing of rewarding clans that have reached a specific target, be it kill count, mission objective, so on and so forth.

 

I used the example of e.g. <20, 20-50, 50-100, 100+ or something like that. It should be possible for clans to add a few members or to make up for them by putting more effort into an operation than someone else, to get on the top of their bracket, which is completely valid, to a specific degree, until the numbers vary so much that there is no way to make up for them. You can always add more brackets easily.

 

It would certain negatively affect esprit de corps if the efforts of the majority of a clan would be nullified like this, bitlard.

 

That's the problem I see with bitlard's suggestion too.

 

 

I don't get it. If a clan is small and elite, then they would easily be able to top the personal player list and get some cool stuff. Is a reward for the dojo really such a big deal? I don't think anyone outside of the clan is gonna be able to see it, anyway. At least, you can use the mods from the personal ranks in missions, as well as save yourself some grind time.

 

I can't tell you if the rewards are going to be a big deal, but I don't really care honestly. I simply have the point of view that being part of a "small clan" should be a valid option, which doesn't exclude you from competition or the benefits you can earn.

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The core problem remains the feeling that things are unfair. The counter-argument is, that no one forces you to have a small clan.

 

The way that I am looking at it is simple. If you come to a race with a F1 car, and your opponent shows up with a Shelby Cobra, because he wants to ride in style, that is valid and cool. But he cannot complain that your car is lighter and faster - he chose his ride. So if the F1 car keeps winning, the Cobra either is switched for an F1 car, too, or the driver accepts that he made a similar, but ultimatively weaker choice.

 

He is still riding in style, though. ;)

 

Yes, nobody currently forces you to have a small clan, but on the other hand you are kind of forced to join a big one if you want to be able to participate at the competition and to earn those rewards for your Dojo. I simply think that in official "races" a Shelby Cobra and a F1 car shouldn't be compared to or compete with each other, because the Shelby has no chance of winning. Both kind of cars have their own leagues, in which they can compete with similar contestors.

 

 

Exactly, well said. Its a choice that you make. You can't keep saying its unfair for smaller clans. That is the choice a person makes in clans. Also realize although there may be rewards in regards to clans, those aren't required at all to enjoy the game. This game didn't start as a clan based game, its something added by the devs to improve coop gameplay and really find others to work together with. Clans won't define some massive competition your making it seem to be. Warframe is very much still a game about playing with your friends! sure ill work hard to improve my clan, thats why I joined them, but ill still mainly play with the people i have been playing with. Rewards for individuals or smaller clans can be implemented, but a bigger clan that achieves more deserves a greater reward too. F1 car indeed. :)

 

I'm not saying that the competition is going to be massive and an important part of the game, but that doesn't mean that you can't make suggestions to improve something. I share your point of view that playing with your friends is the most important part of this coop-game, so I made a suggestion that would enable players to stay in small clans with their friends, instead of having to join the huge ones if they don't want to be excluded from those competitions, whether they are massive or not.

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The core problem remains the feeling that things are unfair. The counter-argument is, that no one forces you to have a small clan.

 

The way that I am looking at it is simple. If you come to a race with a F1 car, and your opponent shows up with a Shelby Cobra, because he wants to ride in style, that is valid and cool. But he cannot complain that your car is lighter and faster - he chose his ride. So if the F1 car keeps winning, the Cobra either is switched for an F1 car, too, or the driver accepts that he made a similar, but ultimatively weaker choice.

 

He is still riding in style, though. ;)

 

I think your analogies are rather fallacious through and through in this thread.

 

The problem is illustrated in your second sentence "The counter-argument is, that no one forces you to have a small clan."

 

That is exactly it. We are talking about essentially having only a few viable choices:

 

a. join no clan

b. join a large clan

c. join a small clan

 

This is a very similar situation to politics and will fall in the same traps as the voting system does: Gerrymandering.

 

There is no reason to have a small clan and nobody forces you to have a small clan. Which means that the benefits all lie with the large clan (speaking strictly from a reward perspective).

 

The situation will be that more and more people will join large clans and small clans will die out (over a period of time). I have seen this happen in other games with no size restrictions.

Star Trek Online has introduced the Fleet Starbases last update (comparable to Dojos in WF) and large Fleets had an immediate advantage in constructing the things. If you wanted the benefits of the Player-held Starbase system, you joined a large Fleet, because for smaller ones specific extensions were almost entirely unreachable (lvl5 shipyards for Fleet-mod Ships took like 5 months of grinding for a large Fleet).

 

Smaller Fleets simply were entirely unable to take advantage of the new content and hence lost members to larger Fleets.

 

Now STO has one very important mechanic that WF does not have (and is imho unfeasible): auction and direct trading of resources

 

This means that fleets formed Meta Fleets with as more or less lose alliances not regulated by game mechanics but by trade.

Fleets like Omega Force and Stonewall have multiple smaller auxiliary fleets that receive help from their large counterparts (in other games this was called "Wings") and would exchange resources to contribute to projects.

 

This created an interesting political/economical dynamic.

 

Warframe does not have this system, the Clans are entirely isolated from each other, which will lead to 3-5 massive clans once Dojos are introduced (in 1-2 weeks).

 

This is based on speculation that clans will receive special rewards for outdoing other clans. This is not taking into account the possibility that the rewards will be based on effort divided by members, for example, to give a metric of what clan has the hardest working members.

 

Currently, there is no mechanic in the game that rewards clans. So far, only individuals have been rewarded.

 

The reward will be the Dojo and the Dojo rooms that each clan will be able to build. The explanation given on the stream was quite clear about how larger clans will build faster due to massive resource requirements (more people, more farm).

 

I think DE_Steve said that they obviously want people to join clans since this is a co-op game, thats good.

 

The system still needs to be balanced, not fair, that is a false dichotomy, but scalable and interesting.

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First of all, the Dojo is not tied to clansize. That is already false. And the next thing is, yeah, Dojos will require lots of resources. But what is the demand here - that smaller groups should get their Dojo for less because they are smaller? I'll be honest, I do not see how that makes sense. This is like the debate on whether failure should give rewards all over again.

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A larger group can achieve more than a smaller group. Where is the mispresentation?

 

 

tumblr_lohylub37Z1qask0po1_500.gif

 

 

Yes, and by definition makes all small clans obsolete.

 

The operation event has made it obvious that numbers can clearly out-weight quality, especially since our top 10 houses clans which barely have any form of policies and invite everyone without any form of question, just to amass more and more members.

 

This and the results of the event (free advertisement) will make sure that these clans shall continue to swell and grow larger.

Needless to elaborate this issue any further cause the notion is obvious and the outcome leaves a lot to be desired.

Edited by Aerensiniac
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M'alright.

 

So, if there is no clan vs. clan competition that is based on quantity, there is still the aspect of faster resource acquisition for a larger clan. What is being asked for now? Because apparently, limiting size has gone down the drain and the focus shifted to bracketing, which again caused friction and posed new problems. Where are we? What is it, that is being asked for, other than "balancing" clansizes?

Does anyone have an idea on how to balance clans to each other? And why that is important?

 

If I have a 15 people guild, I cannot run 40 people raids. If I have a 200 member strong guild, I can, easily. Is the raid content suddenly bad and needs fixing? I do understand the call for equality, but in repetition of my statement, how can a 15ish clan be equal to a 400ish clan? How is that even ... fair to the larger clan?

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First of all, the Dojo is not tied to clansize. That is already false. And the next thing is, yeah, Dojos will require lots of resources. But what is the demand here - that smaller groups should get their Dojo for less because they are smaller? I'll be honest, I do not see how that makes sense. This is like the debate on whether failure should give rewards all over again.

 

I do not understand what you are saying (Bold).

 

Is this an answer to my post or just your general comment?

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M'alright.

 

So, if there is no clan vs. clan competition that is based on quantity, there is still the aspect of faster resource acquisition for a larger clan. What is being asked for now? Because apparently, limiting size has gone down the drain and the focus shifted to bracketing, which again caused friction and posed new problems. Where are we? What is it, that is being asked for, other than "balancing" clansizes?

Does anyone have an idea on how to balance clans to each other? And why that is important?

 

If I have a 15 people guild, I cannot run 40 people raids. If I have a 200 member strong guild, I can, easily. Is the raid content suddenly bad and needs fixing? I do understand the call for equality, but in repetition of my statement, how can a 15ish clan be equal to a 400ish clan? How is that even ... fair to the larger clan?

Its not about the raid example simply cause there are no raids.

Its about the simple fact that large clans will continue to grow.

Steve and the devs promised competitive, clan vs clan control objectives.

What do you think what will happen when that is implemented?

 

I'll tell you. The top 10 size will dominate everything.

Not because of skill, not because of tactics, not because of quality, not because of communication, not because of ANYTHING.

They will dominate because of 1 single reason: They have 200+ members with the first already being close to 1000.

 

So to get you back on track: The question is not equality, top lists or side boards.

The question is the point in competitive clan play when everyone will join the largest clan possible (that has no rules whatsoever and invites everyone on sight), and then flat out dominate everything.

The question is the point in the entire clan system and the creation of any clans further down the right, when everyone will simply join the largest clans.

Edited by Aerensiniac
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Yes, and by definition makes all small clans obsolete.

 

The operation event has made it obvious that numbers can clearly out-weight quality, especially since our top 10 houses clans which barely have any form of policies and invite everyone without any form of question, just to amass more and more members.

 

 

That sounds pretty vague. Could you give us a source on the recruiting policies of these "top 10 clans"?

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That sounds pretty vague. Could you give us a source on the recruiting policies of these "top 10 clans"?

 

Don't create off-topic discussions please. Yes, he might have falsely accused some of those clans, but that neither matters nor changes anything about the point he was trying to make.

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